No Thanks to Thanksgiving (a white-supremacist holiday?)

[G_j]

http://www.alternet.org/story/28584/

No Thanks to Thanksgiving

By Robert Jensen, AlterNet. Posted November 23, 2005.

Instead, we should atone for the genocide that was incited -- and condoned -- by the very men we idolize as our 'heroic' founding fathers.

One indication of moral progress in the United States would be the replacement of Thanksgiving Day and its self-indulgent family feasting with a National Day of Atonement accompanied by a self-reflective collective fasting.

In fact, indigenous people have offered such a model; since 1970 they have marked the fourth Thursday of November as a Day of Mourning in a spiritual/political ceremony on Coles Hill overlooking Plymouth Rock, Massachusetts, one of the early sites of the European invasion of the Americas.

Not only is the thought of such a change in this white-supremacist holiday impossible to imagine, but the very mention of the idea sends most Americans into apoplectic fits -- which speaks volumes about our historical hypocrisy and its relation to the contemporary politics of empire in the United States.

<snip>

But in the United States, this reluctance to acknowledge our original sin -- the genocide of indigenous people -- is of special importance today. It's now routine -- even among conservative commentators -- to describe the United States as an empire, so long as everyone understands we are an inherently benevolent one. Because all our history contradicts that claim, history must be twisted and tortured to serve the purposes of the powerful.
..more..

[ugarte]

1. Native Americans have long rejected Turkey Day

What exactly do they have to be thankful for?

[H2O Man]

20. Native Americans

have had harvest festivals for centuries. What many tradional people reject is the pilgram mythology, not Thanksgiving.

[sui generis]

2. sorry, no guilt here - and this is out of place

Thanksgiving has much more meaning to adults not in school plays than a literal rehash of some mythical feast.

To those of us who didn't arrive on the mayflower, those comments are just plain wrong.

All throughout history in every place on this planet horrific wars were fought, people and families and entire cultures were murdered, raped, assimilated into new cultures.

We are part of that barbaric history ourselves, long before we ever got to America your ancestors were either doing it or having it done to them.

The point is that TODAY we have to recognize and honor our responsibilities to the world around us, and that is by and large what progressives do.

Borrowed guilt is not guilt at all.

[Mad_Dem_X]

4. Well said! nt

[FSogol]

7. Nicely put. n/t

[xchrom]

8. bwahahahaha!

that was sooo funny!
:rofl:

[G_j]

9. if it is just borrowed guilt

then maybe we should give back the land we "borrowed" also.
Of course that is not realistic, but what is wrong with seriously reflecting on the truth of American history?

[sui generis]

13. America America America

You would think this is the only country on the planet.

The Croatians should give back their land to the Serbs and the Tutsis should give their land back to the Hutus and the South Africans should give their land back to the various kraals and pre-tribal communities, and Spain and the new world should give back central and south america, the Romans should give Rome back to the poor farmers of the Campagna and Germans and Austrians should give back Tyrolia to the transmountainous nomadic communities of the northern Italian Alps and we should all just sit in our little fiefdoms and trade campfire tales and homespun cloth.

As a society we certainly owe more than we have been giving to the people we misplaced, but some of 'them' are 'us' and it's a lot more complicated than just "giving it back". History has moved on - it is far far too late to undo to past.

Reparations are the brainchild of a childbrain. A half or quarter native American would give back half or three quarters of their land or income to themselves to atone for the "anglo" part of their heritage?

[G_j]

15. of course

it can't all be 'given back'! I'll repeat that an opportunity exists to examine history and dispel myths. History may have "moved on" but that is no excuse not to understand it.

[sui generis]

17. then you are preaching to the choir

seriously, I think I got off on the wrong foot with "White Supremacist Holiday" in your post title.

We are progressives because we care - and although we each have our faults, apathy is not usually among them, nor looking at our faults as latent white supremacy.

[H2O Man]

24. Turn negatives into positives.

There may be opportunities to teach a more accurate history in schools. It isn't a matter of trying to convince children to be invested in any one-sided view of history. It's good to teach them to appreciate how complex human history is.

Years ago, some white people who had convinced themselves that they were on the cutting edge of progressive militancy approached Chief Waterman and myself. They had some half-cooked idea about breaking bottles of Crazy Horse malt liquor at a Columbus Day parade. I think they wanted our blessing. Chief Waterman told them not to; in fact, he said the best thing to do is to recognize that Columbus is an important symbol to a group of people, and to not offend Italian-Americans. Instead, teach the truth about what really happened, not as a good versus evil, but as part of human history.

We can do the same with Thanksgiving. And all of us should make use of the opportunity to sit down to the table of brotherhood, and be thankful for the good things in our lives.

[sui generis]

27. Why save that education just for Thanksgiving?

the harvest feast is far far older than America

The lessons to be taught should be taught exactly as you said - they are a part of history. Requiring a child to participate in guilt or to take a moral stand is counterproductive at that particular age and detracts from the objective lesson of history.

As adults we know that good and evil are relative; what's good for the man is not so good for the cow, so history is better taught as a series of events and socio-political motivations, with the deeper moral significance of it to be worked out in our personal moral growth into adulthood as humans.

Realistically, humans compete for land and resources. We have done terrible things each to the other in that competition. If there is wisdom we can impart it should be that cooperation is a better strategy; that to take something from another human or group of humans by right of might and eminent domain or by any other reason of war requires that we think of certain humans as inferior or less deserving of those resources than we are.

Even when our intentions are honorable, at least to us, it implies that we are willing to sacrifice life (most usually not our own) to promote our more urgent views over the views of the figurative cow.

In this day and age of dimishing resources to share, it is more important than ever to teach collaberation and cooperation over competition or we will head inevitably towards selfishness and anarchy.

[H2O Man]

32. I agree.

For example, the Haudenosaunee (or Iroquois Confederacy) have a celebration for each of the 13 moons per year. Thanksgiving gives an opportunity to teach about different cultures. Over the decades, I have spoken to classes from K through college, and done numerous trainings on cultural diversity to a variety of human service agencies. I've never used guilt. Only positive messages.

[G_j]

29. well said

I do believe that to take the time to give thanks is essential to the health of the spirit.
The actual act of "thanks-giving" is as old as humanity.

~~

Give Thanks


When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the morning light, for your life and strength.


Give thanks for your food and the joy of living.

If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies in yourself.

~ Tecumseh ~

[H2O Man]

33. Yep. Exactly.

As a child, I was taught to say "thanks" for every meal, and for every drink of water. And for every person.

[G_j]

28. I admit

it was deliberately provocative on my part, simply to get folks to read the article and offer some healthy discussion. There is a deeper discussion to be had about our myths.

Yes I agree, we do care, and of course it is important to continue in learning how we can best manifest this good will in the world around us.

[shance]

21. Not out of place at all. This is our history. We cannot cherry pick.

It is disrespectful to Americans at large to deny all of our history, the good and the bad.

As convenient as it may be to be selective in our memory, it does nothing to help us move forward and truly succeed as a nation that values everyone.

[sui generis]

25. so, you agree you are a white supremacist?

please don't lecture me - the title implies that we are white supremacists if we celebrate Thanksgiving. Your comment is out of line with the discussion. Nobody is in denial. Your comments belong in front of a different audience.

[tx_dem41]

22. Well said, sui! n/t

[johnnie]

30. Well stated sui

If half of the energy that goes into dwelling on the past could be used to work on the future, we would be heading toward a promising future.

The past should not be ignored but it should be a lesson and not a way of life.

[Loonman]

3. I have no problem with T-Day

And I resent whitey insisting he's voicing my opinion. Stuff your sorrys in a sack, mister.

[Kali]

5. It isn't a celebration of genocide to me

more like a harvest festival, end of the growing season - chance to evaluate how the year went and plan for the "hard times" till it rains again.

A family tradition, like Christmas or Easter that has long changed from its original meaning for this non-religious, fairly peaceful, mostly liberal family.

Just because someone eats a turkey at the end of November doesn't mean they are racist. Just ike putting up a tree in December neither makes one a christian or a pagan!

[G_j]

6. I don't believe the author

was implying that everyone who eats a Thanksgiving dinner is a racist.
I think he was trying to get people to reflect on American history and our pet mythologies.

[Solomon]

10. And he's right. GJ

I think about it every Thanksgiving.

[Kali]

34. If I admit I was being a bit sarcastic, does that help?

I find the idea of replacing this "holiday" with a day of atonement to be ridiculous in several ways. Not the least of which is how amerika inc. would twist it (think of Earth Day sponsored by Raytheon, for example)

Making things into holidays rarely achieves the goal of educating folks to the meaning of said holiday. Especially when the intention is to get people to focus on some negative aspect of national history? Work on getting more accurate history included into text books if that is what your intention is. Not replacing the one almost commercial-free holiday we have!

[1932]

11. Didn't Lincoln introduce Thanksgiving Day to emphasize an American

culture built on values that came from New England, which, at the time, was the seat of abolitiionist sentiment?

IIUC, the point of Thanksgiving was closely connected with the desire for the North to prevail in the battle to end slavery.

[slaveplanet]

31. yep- It was a proclaimation in the defeat

of Genocide(slavery) not the other way around....

many national days of Thanksgiving were declared before 1862 and all most all of those had to do with victory in Battle and almost all those battles had to do with a certain enemy----ENGLAND...who was also engaged in the Genocide of former colonists.


Pilgrims and Natives were never really mixed in with the Thanksgiving holiday until the 20th century....

although many states had celebrated a harvest type thanksgiving day prior to the 1860s, and most of those were New England states

[seabeyond]

12. let that be your pedestal, but not dem party. they have already

taken christianity, america, the flag, working on christmas..... i am not giving thanksgiving to the right either. i am well aware what happened in the u.s. and my boys and i talk about it, are educated about it, but it is not what thanksgiving is about. you want to make it so, it is yours to yell about not mine.

thanksgiving is gathering all around, before winter comes, and sharing in a feast....... all inclusive. whomever doesn't has a place to go, has a seat at my table.

14. the complete history of our country is not

really taught in our schools. At least it wasn't when I went to school. I got generally how the puritans celebrated Thanksgiving and gave thanks and that we are their descendants pretty much. They would show a couple of indians in the background. Our idea of history generally just goes back far enough to celebrate white people settling in this country. And I do think a lot of racism emanates from this concept of ownership. just my 2 cents. Not to feel guilty about Thanksgiving, but history should go back further than just a certain group's beginnings. People want to be modern and in the present though, whatever that means.

I love a good meal with family that is for sure.

[dogday]

16. Yes I can see how counting one's blessings

once a year is a bad thing.

[Terran]

18. Yes, yes, a Day of Atonement is a great idea

but I'm not replacing Thanksgiving with it. IMO, a day when you're reminded to be grateful for what you have is a great idea too. We all know the mythology behind it is BS, and that's fine, so reflect on the larger lesson. That's how Christmas works too for us non-Christians, and it's a good thing.

[Bridget Burke]

19. Does anyone remember the Northern Exposure Thanksgiving show?

The local Native Americans (of whom there were quite a few) celebrated the season by throwing ripe tomatoes at the other locals. Doctor Fleischman inquired--& was told that this was "revenge."

The Thanksgiving Parade was reserved for the Native Americans & had a Day of the Dead theme. Joel was allowed to participate because he'd just been informed that his obligation to practice in Cecily had been extended. Our Joel was never one to suffer in silence!

At the end, everybody had a big pot-luck feast. Yes, it's a time to remember. But why pass up a good meal?

Hasn't Calvin Trillin said he eats Spaghetti Carbonara on Thanksgiving day--because he's thankful that he's NOT descended from the Puritans?

[deutsey]

23. I'm not all that interested in Thanksannukahwanzamas anyway

I'm becoming more and more like the Grinch when it comes to holidays, I guess...

[sandnsea]

26. Without Thanksgiving

We probably wouldn't even have these discussions. I think the goal is that some day we will be able to give thanks that all the people in the world have put barbaric genocides behind them. We are far, far from that and so it's a good thing to be reminded of our past.

"We weren't lost and
We didn't need any book
Then the great spirit
Met the great lie
Indians are jesus
Hanging from the cross
Hanging from the cross

In the name of their savior
Forcing on us
The trinity of the chain
Guilt sin and blame
The trinity of the chain
Guilt sin and blame
Hanging from the cross
Hanging from the cross"

[meganmonkey]

35. Thanks for posting this!

This is what America should be reflecting on for Thanksgiving. In fact, before sitting down to enjoy your turkey, there are a few chapters of required reading in Zinn's 'People's History' (or at least there will be when I am president ;) )

We should feel shame for this. All of us. (But it was generations ago...I didn't do it!) We are still perpetuating this type of thing, maybe in different forms, but it is still happening, both in our own country and elsewhere in the world with our twisted imperialism and corporatism. And it is easy to say we are doing our part to stop it, but obviously we are not doing enough because it continues. With our tax dollars and with our names on it. There is no point in denying the truth. Denial will get us nowhere.

Shame is a horrible, unproductive emotion to carry all the time, but it can be very helpful if we face it and deal with it. This is a perfect time to face it, and maybe think about our priorities, reconsider what we are truly grateful for. And then we can feel good about sitting down and being with our families and enjoying some really good stuffing and mashed potatoes.

Mmmm...stuffing :)

[meganmonkey]

36. kick

[Sparkly]

37. That does make sense, and I did fast one Thanksgiving

I always figured we'd be more thankful for what we have each day if we fasted on Thanksgiving! I did that one year, but not since. I guess I've grown conventional, and join in the family gatherings like everyone else.

(I don't eat turkey, though.) To me it's become a day to spend with relatives and be grateful for them. I see the food as a matter of family history, not an opportunity to stuff myself, and not anything much to do with pilgrims.

But I agree -- celebrating the founding of our country, in the way it was founded, never made a whole lot of sense; and a day of going without something is the best way to feel thankful for it all the other days.

I guess it's just convention now. :shrug: But without reading other replies, I'd guess that most people think of this holiday as something other than pilgrims and slaughter and slavery -- it's a celebration of family, and family traditions, past and future.

I don't think this is a day that will become a recognition of national guilt. I'm not sure any government would do that. But it's definitely worth remembering the reality of American history.

[pitohui]

38. now you're just being silly, dude

what kind of weirdo wants to do a nat'l day of atonement on his holiday

oh, yeah, let me bond w. my family on the nat'l day of atonement

a fast is not the same as a feast, atonement and wallowing in the past is a total bore, the whole feasting and celebration is something that puts a sparkle in the children's eye and links us thru the generations

nobody is celebrating genocide or stupid yankees on plymouth rock, we're feasting with our good friends and family, taking one damn day out of the year to say, you know what, it's good to be alive and to celebrate the bounty of this planet

jeez

some people just don't know how to have fun

[omega minimo]

39. Yeah, those weren't buckles on the Pilgrims hats, they were swastikas!

Perhaps the way this is presented and the terms used will determine whether it sends people into "apopleptic fits."

[ultraist]

40. White patriarchial versions of history do perpetuate white supremacy

Not all heros are white males except in the whitewashed, glorified versions of US history where white males are even given most of the credit for any progress, even ending slavery. The black activists are merely a sidenote.

In my children's public school texts, there is barely any mention of women or people of color. It's pathetic.

In my family, we do celebrate Thanksgiving as a day of thanks---but the pilgrim myth is not a part of it.

[DanCa]

41. If you build me a time machine Ill try to go back and fix it.

There is simply nothing I can do in the here and now. Superman can fly around the earth and reverse time but I can't. Thanksgiving Christmas and Easter and halloween can't we have one holiday were we can sit back and enjoy it ?