Slave labor in China is a good thing

[HulaChicken]

(note: more responses are more than welcome...it helps my arguments for the future, but I've sent off a great comeback...thanks everyone)

On another newsgroup, I quoted Thom Hartmann's "Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" from the section "Who will feed China?" (about competing for global resources like food & oil.) And I talked about child labor, unsafe working conditions, long hours. And I talked about the ecological impact of importing products long distances. And yet STILL, I get a response like this (below). I am no economist, but this person is highly respected on this other newsgroup & she's seriously getting people on her bandwagon. Anyone out there help me shoot her down? Thanks! Read her post, as follows...

Here is my take as a former economics student...

On the outset, let me just say that I do my best to support local
businesses. I buy much of my food from local farmers and I love
supporting work at home moms. Here comes the "but"...

Despite the fact that working conditions overseas can make great
20/20 exposes, many Americans tend to think too simplistically about
the matter. We compare conditions and wages in our country to those
in some other countries and think "oh, how horrible". Comparatively,
yes, alot of this stuff is horrible. However, economies in
transition experience growing pains. Our own workers experienced
some really crappy conditions and wages during the industrial
revolution. Many of these workers were immigrants and did it so
their children and grandchildren would have better futures. They
were willing to work themselves literally to death at times. And you
know what happened? Their children and their grandchildren DID
improve their standard of living. As a matter of fact, the posh
lives we live now are thanks to the sacrifices of these workers. The
same kind of thing is going on now in many third world countries who
are in transition. They are 75 or 100 years behind us. But if they
are allowed to participate in the global economy, they will reap the
rewards after they have paid their painful dues. We should do our
best as a nation to encourage free markets globally to hasten the
change.

Please keep in mind that I am not advocating child labor or 20 hour
work days, I'm just pointing out the realities of history. If anyone
is interested in this topic, read the book or rent the PBS miniseries
titled "Commanding Heights: The Battle for the World Economy". (I
might not have that title exactly right.)

I have more thoughts on this, but have to run... interesting!!!

[LynzM]

1. Thought number one...

The 'developing' countries now are developing in a totally different global economic environment then did most of the 'westernized' world. It's possible they'll work their collective asses off, and never 'make it', so to speak. More later, perhaps...

[HulaChicken]

3. Thanks, the more you can give me, the better...

The board I'm on is for a bunch of retailers. We're discussing whether or not we should be selling a brand that recently moved production to China. I'm trying to advocate why we should stick to the USA version. If I can argue the point well enough, it will actually have a pretty significant $$$ effect.
THANKS!
Marci
HulaChicken.com

[knitter4democracy]

11. Do it from the point of oil.

I don't like to buy yarn from other countries because of that. Explain it this way:

The resource comes from one country, is shipped to another for the parts to be made, is shipped somewhere else for the whole thing to be made and then shipped here to be sold. All those costs are in the product, either in taxes to clean up the environment or subsidize the oil companies to keep it cheap enough to sell said product or in the price of Homeland Security and all. They are paying for that cheap product somehow.

If they buy an American product, at least it's eliminating some shipping costs and some taxes for supporting American workers without jobs.

Honestly, in the long run, buying American is cheaper.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Let's follow history to its conclusion, then

Sure, one of my great-grandfathers worked hard so that his sons could become doctors. I think it is sad that because corporations have decided to go to countries that allow workers to be exploited, his great-granddaughter is now worse off. And it is a bit presumptuous to expect China to follow the US model of improving conditions. No, what we have now are powerful multinationals that will simply continue to exploit workers by moving from one country to another, bringing down all workers throughout the world, because to the corporations, workers are less than dirt.

[BlueEyedSon]

4. We have globalized trade without globalizing working conditions

so our workers are too expensive and hence, unemployed.

[whatever4]

5. As if...

as if there isn't a better way
as if we ought to be taking advantage of it the maximum allowable profit
as if it's what our ancestors would have WANTED us to do to someone else

as if it was all for nothing
because now we judge the worth of life on nationality and pocket book
and that's why many of our ancestors had to come here in the first place
to escape governments and labor practices that are exactly what we've become

[HulaChicken]

7. Yeah, the problem is...

people like this gal think that we're actually doing China a favor. These economics make my head hurt. Kind of like people say CAFTA is a good thing because it prevents illegal aliens from coming to the US to take our jobs. Erg. Is there actually a solution other than boycotting China? I mean, I don't want some family over there to starve because I didn't buy their goods... is there any way to get a globalized standard of working conditions? Probably not, since China won't allow unions. So, what's the solution? Boycott China (ie: go naked & buy nothing) and Chinese families starve.... or just say "that sucks" and buy "made in China" anyway? OR maybe buy "made in China and also make sure to buy all the Made in the USA stuff you can? No, I can't imagine the solution is, "we should CONSUME more and SPEND more." *sigh* *shaking head* I don't want to screw China over. People like this gal make me feel guilty.

[whatever4]

17. Yeah

And I'll be the first to admit, I'm an economic idiot. But when you say "think that we're actually doing China a favor", I think that's really the confusion. And it could be a good thing, but not if the every intent is to take advantage of their poor status. Then it's just predation. The fact of the matter is we know of many cases where the American business takes great advantage of the need of the people in ways that would be criminal here.

They act as if another government treats the populace like dirt, it's okay for an American company to too. But it's not okay.

Yeah, a lot of people had to sacrifice a lot to make our nation what it is today. But how can anyone hold their head up if in the end America turns into exactly what our founders escaped? And when and if our nation falls in to economic ruin, will it be okay for them to use those same labor practices HERE on poor communities HERE?

Would it be okay for YOUR children America?? Don't you think a lot of companies would love 80 hour a week workers? Don't you think if they could do that, they would do it? Because THAT is the type of company we're supporting in our nation.

NO Walmart, I don't want dirt cheap prices on products made by hungry, overworked children of ANY nationality. And you won't be clothing MY children ANYMORE.

[Luminous Animal]

6. Well, she's stretching the truth quite a bit.

It wasn't only hard work that benefited future generations but decades of labor struggle that sometimes resulted in death and imprisonment. It was through their efforts that the blue collar middle class was created and many of their children and grandchildren went on to work in the same industries but, because of strong unions, at a much higher standard of living.

One thing that differentiates ours and other western nations labor conditions 60-125 years ago, is that our ancestors had the benefit of a democratic form of government which exalts the rule of law. Labor movements in the west, ultimately had the rule of law on their side. This is not the case in most areas of the world where slave labor is practiced. Labor activists and unionizers have the rule of force to contend with with no judicial protections or democratic recourse.

[HulaChicken]

9. There ya go!

Okay duh... I should have thought of that! See, that's why I come here, helps me get my thoughts straight. I know it in my head, but just can't lay it all out well. THANKS!

[Luminous Animal]

10. You are welcome! (n/t)

[Cleita]

8. Just because our ancestors went through this 75 to a 100

years ago, doesn't mean it has to be repeated. Sounds like a very unsound economic policy to me. Also, let me tell you about my father who went to Arizona in 1910 to work in the mines there. He was fourteen years old at the time.

He got paid $1 a day he told me, but the company also had to provide them with a boarding house to stay in and a meal ticket. The meal ticket was usuable at various chuckwagons that fed the miners from the streets then. When they bought a meal the chuckwagon guy, who was Chinese according to dad, punched the ticket and then redeemed it with the company.

So as you can see the $1 a day was extra money. This is why these early mining towns were boomtowns because the miners had money to spend in the the businesses that sprang up around the mining camps. As a matter-of-fact this is how much of the west was settled. Companies offered a room and food besides a small wage to workers. Maybe if these developing countries had to do the same and throw in free health care with this, it would be an economy that could grow.

How they are doing it doesn't make the workers better off and with some spending money to support a local economy.

[HulaChicken]

12. Shaboom...

Beautiful. I just sent off a great response. I think most of the people on the board are going to do the right thing!
Thanks all!
Marci
HulaChicken.com

[Sirveri]

13. If we bring everyone to our level the world will collapse.

Seriously, if everyone was at our level we would need 7 earths worth of resources to support them. That's how inefficient/comfortable we are. Someone somewhere needs to live in a simpler lifestyle so that we can live in a better lifestyle, there aren't enough resources to change that currently available.

[Old and In the Way]

14. Most likely, we'll be lowering our SOL to meet the rest of the world.

I think the original poster is wrong about the time frame. If the coastal provinces continue to grow at the rate they have in the past 15 years, they'll be our equals in 25 years, maybe sooner.

Capitalism, has made a pretty positive impact on China's population in the past 30 years. In the mid-70's there was mass starvation and the average per capita income was, maybe, $30.00/year. I doubt Mao would recognize his country today.

By our standards today, wages in China are still substandard, but from my travels there, I see a very vibrant economy (I see lots of capitalists, haven't met a card carrying commmunist, though) and a population that seems to be absorbing the Westernized culture and values quite well.

Seems to me, this is the reality we are saddled with. But the cost of fuel is making products more expensive coming from China...and that may bode well for US manufacturing. Products that require little labor content (plastic injection molding, automated metals manufacturing) or high customization may never make a lot of sense to build and ship from China.

Still, we need to elect people with an economic vision for our children's future. Rebuilding our infrastructure to adapt to a post peak-oil economy is one place where jobs can be created as we wean ourselves off ME oil energy dependency.

[Cleita]

15. In my opinion it might be a good thing.

We create too much garbage. I weaned myself off of too much stuff about fifteen years ago. I only have what I need right now and a few toys. My family on the other hand have filled a house, a garage and now are filling up a barn with stuff they never use. This is the problem with Americans. They need to reduce their consumption of junk.

[Old and In the Way]

16. Where I live in rural Maine.....

Seems like everyone has 4 or 5 cars in their yard....of course only one runs.

If we can't pay cash, we don't need it...