Fitz is brilliant - there is a reason Rove wasn't indicted

[demobabe]

Figure it this way: Karl Rove is the master debater, master game player... had Fitz indicted him today, how much bargaining do you think they would have gotten out of him at this point? This is a strategic indictment.

Karl Rove is essentially "jailed" until this investigation is over. He's got to watch every move from here forward, and this is the guy who gets involved in EVERYTHING...

Here's my hopeful scenario: they're going to use Libby to give up Cheney with a plea bargain in exchange for info, then they've got Cheney AND Rove to bargain with to give up Bush.

Scooter doesn't have the ties to Bush like Cheney and Rove do...

[sarcasmo]

1. I figure that's why so many counts with so many years.

A plea bargain is a great tool to get who Fitz really wants.

[Solomon]

91. You presume too much. Why do you think Fitz wants the same people

you want to get? You sound like you think he has an axe to grind.

[madrchsod]

2. they will never give up bush

if they did this government would be in the worse crisis it has ever faced. i`m not sure if there are enough republicans who are willing to bail out this country

[BikeWriter]

17. That sounds similar to they will never give up Nixon.

[thinkingwoman]

67. Yep, many people

swore at the start of Watergate that nothing would ever come of it.

They were wrong.

[man4allcats]

60. They will give him up...

if it's his neck or their's. It always works. That's what the criminal justice system is based on. Watch "Law and Order." It's not just for TV. It's real life.

[FreedomAngel82]

112. And watching these people

if they know that someone is going into the deep trouble they'll distance themselves. We've seen that recently with Cheney and Bush.

[xultar]

3. You're dreaming...they will never give up Cheney or Bush.

[demobabe]

6. A girl can dream

Can't she? ;)

[calimary]

30. Another girl can dream, too,

can't she? :hi:

[ailsagirl]

48. A third girl certainly dreams!! :=)

:)

[bunny planet]

49. Make that four dreaming girls.

[Kralizec]

56. MMmmmmm.....

[DemonFighterLives]

58. If boys can dream, count me in

:toast:

[Sydnie]

80. Count me as 5 - Dreamin' girls gone wild!

This sounds very likely.

[morningglory]

87. Song: Dree-ee-ee-ee-eam, dream, dream , dream...... n/t

[stepnw1f]

8. It's a Good Dream Though

Actually, it's a possibility, even if it were to be a long-shot.

[DancingBear]

27. Remember, xultar, Haldeman was attached to Nixon like a Siamese twin

When he found out they were going to use handcuffs instead, he rolled right over.

Nothing these cowards do to save themselves will surprise me.

[susanna]

83. That's my thought too...

Sure, it's all fun and hardball politics until one faces jail time...especially folks like Libby and Rove. They wouldn't last a minute inside a real prison, and what's more, they know it. (Every single policy they stand for has screwed the current inmates, dontcha know?)

I have always believed that these pseudo-"tough guys" (read: neo-cons) are really as chickenshit as the day is long. Not one of them has ever actually FOUGHT for this country, but have been willing to send thousands of our troops to slaughter for their imperialistic fantasies.

I would say that their comeuppance is quite overdue, and so I wait...patiently. (I can hope, can't I?)

[FreedomAngel82]

113. I'm hoping too

And also remember too again Watergate. And again people said nothing will come out of it. I'm not holding my breath but I do think we have the same type of scenerio coming along again. Only much worse. And it's for sure that Fitzgerald isn't through with his case until he can look all of us in the eye.

[CTyankee]

123. Hah! What an image in my mind

Rove as somebody's beyatch in prison.

Come to think of it, he already is somebody's beyatch!

[susanna]

136. Heh...I think I'll start calling Rove

"Bush's Beyatch." I think that is quite fitting. ;-)

[AntiFascist]

86. Interesting theory about Rove

but Nixon was pretty intelligent and I just can't see Bush making decisions, even if only about leaking information, by himself. Someone is pulling his strings...maybe Rove and Cheney take turns. Notice how Reagan got out of the Iran-Contra scandal, by claiming ignorance - it was probably true.

[FreedomAngel82]

114. I personally don't buy this whole

act with Bush is dumb and not involved. I think he's just as involved as Nixon was. Maybe not with making foreign policey but with everything else. This is why, I think, they have the whole "Bush is dumb" thing out there and the whole "God-fearing Christian man" image as well so all his loyal fan base/supporters will say that Bush couldn't have been involved and pull a Reagan by claiming to be ignorant and blame it on someone in Cheney's cabinet or Cheney himself. I just don't buy it personally. He was talking about Iraq in 1999 when he was campaigning so I think he's more involved than we know.

[AntiFascist]

133. I'm sure Bush has strong convictions and that he fully supports....

the Neocon efforts. I'm just saying that when it comes to the technical details of fighting back against one's enemies or critics, as in the case of Wilson, that he would have deferred to Rove, Cheney or both and I'm sure that they would have had to rely on the legal counsel of the likes of Libby, etc. I can't see Rove getting away with turning this around and blaming it on Bush as the primary "agent," so to speak. The question of conspiracy is another matter altogether, and if it could be shown that Rove, Cheney and/or Bush collaborated then THAT should spell the end of the administration!

[Pachamama]

52. Create the Dream....If enough people "dream" it, then they can make it

happen...

Seriously....I spent a lot of time in the Amazon with some of the native tribes such as the Achuar and Shuar...they believe that what we call the waking state is actually the dream and the dream world is actually reality.

They collectively share their dreams and one of the key messages I was given was that we all need to "change the dream"...that the dream we have has become a nightmare...

The collective dream, consiousness, whatever you want to call it is very powerful....

It's along the same concept of love vs. fear....we need to change the dream....move from fear into love and literally visualize the outcome we want to see....

Count me in for changing the dream.....:hi:

[northamericancitizen]

70. "Count me in for changing the dream..." well written. nt

[Tight_rope]

73. I'm going to DREAM and I'll throw 1000 prayers on top of that!..n/t

[xultar]

109. I can't disagree with you there. I've been praying for it too.

BUT! (There's always a big BUTT) I think there will be something more devastating to occur to make this worth our while.

They've done too much evil for it to be something like this to get them. Just wait...

It won't be something puny like someone giving them up to get them busted.

[Laurab]

74. And here's a fifth dreaming girl

I would never say "never". I'm practically PLANNING on Cheney going down. It may take some time, but they're looking more deeply into what took us to war, and if Rove turns, anything is possible.

Some of the statements Fitzgerald made today suggest that he's a true patriot (not that I ever doubted it), and if he knows what we know, which I'm quite sure he does, it'll be interesting times ahead.

It's so nice to see Libby and Rove on the front page of the paper, and Italy looking into forgeries on the 2nd front page - never thought I'd see the day. So I'm just going to keep believing that good DOES triumph over evil, and today was just the tip of the iceberg.

[hang a left]

92. I believe Rove would give up Cheney. I don't see Libby doing it,

he would have done it by now. I think he plans on fighting the charges.

[kostya]

110. No. Libby is likely still in denial over his indictments, figuring his

lawyer and buddies will get him out of it. Fitz has just started turning the screws and as time goes by the pressure will build, especially when Libby sees the other perpetrators (perpetraitors?) running around free. That changes a person, believe me.

[Flying Dream Blues]

132. That's a REALLY good point. Taking them one by one makes it more

likely they will start talking. Libby must really feel screwed to be the only one indicted.

[FreedomAngel82]

115. Probably on Rove and Cheney

I've always had this strong feeling that if one of them goes down they all will. They'll turn against each other and take each other down. Rove will probably turn in Cheney and his group of people on his side and Cheney will turn in Bush. Cheney won't give up everything a lone.

[BikeWriter]

4. I like your theory. ;-)

[mzmolly]

5. Fitz is making an example of Libby, showing them he's serious.

And, it would appear that he is. Rove now knows that, and your right, he's gonna continue to squeal.

[calimary]

35. He does have a LOT to squeal about, too. Pay NO attention to the

spinners who'll try to insist that he was out of the loop.

I don't know a lot about the internet(s). But if I can google "White House Iraq Group" and get to the wikipedia whatever it is, and scroll down to the "Members" section, ANYONE CAN, and can therefore know the truth. That same "Members" section has nine names on it. libby is number nine. Guess who's number one?

Yep -

- our friend turd blossom.

[demobabe]

46. Yep, the WHIG is where it's at

let's hope he takes the whole thing down, and let's hope the Downing Street Minutes come into play as well...

[bklyncowgirl]

59. I agree Message: "Screw with me and you 'll face a perjury charge." nt

[FreedomAngel82]

116. I highly agree there

Just from watching his press conference yesterday we all could witness that. And he debunked all the rightwing talking points.

[MadisonProgressive]

7. What you said is absurd!

Then I put on my TFH and it all started to make sense. You're a friggen JENIUS!!

[BikeWriter]

9. “Your failure to be informed does not make me a wacko.”

;-P

[MadisonProgressive]

11. How true that is!

[Canuckistanian]

28. Sorry, where is that from? n/t

[BikeWriter]

29. Madison Progressive's own profile and John Loeffler...

:)

[demobabe]

40. Explain how it's absurd...

...we all know that a sitting President won't be indicted, and that Bush will pardon folks, but enough damage can be done politically to do the same as if Fitz took them all down.

So tell me how this is all so crazy?

[stillrockin]

54. Not so crazy

After watching Fitz' press conference today, I would not want him examining MY every move. KKK Karl will absolutely have to watch his step for the foreseeable future. It's not far fetched at to consider the possibility of Rove and Cheney being forced out. Not a guarantee, but totally not crazy.

[DemonFighterLives]

65. You're right!

Welcome to DU!

[stillrockin]

79. Thank you!

[MadisonProgressive]

107. I was being tongue in cheek - forgot the sarcasm smilie

[demobabe]

134. This administration has made it impossible for me...

...to be able to discern tongue-in-cheek, sarcasm, irony, or any other attempt at intelligent humor without it being labeled as such!

Don't I feel completely stoopid! :P

[calazini]

10. He's going for the big fish

Libby is low hanging fruit. They are biding their time - I can't wait to see how long they make this work for them. It's hard on us, but I think in the end it will be worth it.

[BikeWriter]

12. Welcome to DU! :-)

[calazini]

16. Thank You!

I've been lurking for a while to see if you were all my kind of crazy people - and you are. I come from a family of Repukes so you can imagine how happy I am today!

[BikeWriter]

19. That's super! You should fit right in. ;-)

[calazini]

21. Actually its 4 to 3 but they still think they are winning!

[WritingIsMyReligion]

25. I was a lurker for the LONGEST time before I joined..

And now, I;m over 1000 poosts in a MONTH. Go figure ;) :)

Welcome, btw.

:toast:

[calazini]

34. well I think lurking is a good thing :))

[soulcore]

78. Lurkers of the world UNITE!

and i agree, this is just the tip of the iceberg, and Fitz is playing a masterful game of chess with these people.
The next few weeks are going to be very interesting... :popcorn:

[calimary]

36. Well, then, settle in and share the joy! Welcome! Glad you're here,

especially on ONE FINE DAY like this!

[FreedomAngel82]

117. Hi calazini!

:hi: Glad you've decided to post. I come from a family of republicans too. My mother and grandmother though don't like Bush so I'm not totally a lone. You'll love DU. It's a great place to be! :hug:

[MadisonProgressive]

14. Yes, Welcome!

I so do hope you're right!

[thinkingwoman]

69. Welcome to DU!

Yes, it's funny to say, since Libby is Cheney's right hand man, but he is definitely low hanging fruit in this case.

[morillon]

84. Libby's charges may have been the easiest to prove, so...

...why not take him down as a warning about the shitstorm that's coming? I think it's a great strategy. Libby left enough of his fingerprints all over the place that it was just a matter of time before he got nailed. I mean, c'mon -- leaving a notebook around that has notes that contradict your sworn testimony? How stupid is that?

Anyway, 30 years in jail, over $1M in fines, hundreds of thousands (or more) in legal fees, and disbarment -- and this not even for the more serious charges that might be brought -- must put the fear o' God into the others who could be indicted.

[hang a left]

95. Fitz didn't "find" any notebook. That notebook was given to him by

Libby. He had to do it in order for his testimony to align itself with Cheney's "interview". Make no mistake, Libby is taking a fall for Chaingang.

[Inland]

13. The guy's broken the mob, terrorists, illinois repug corruption and

City Hall in Chicago.

He can handle this criminal conspiracy.

[calazini]

18. He's a pit bull in disguise

He has no agenda. He's totally honest (go figure for a lawyer :) and he follows the rules. He has gone after some horrible corruption here in Chi-town and made them all pay. He's a straight up, no BS, prosecutor. He'll get to the bottom of this and he won't stop until he's done.

[Bjornsdotter]

22. Exactly

Look at how long the investigation with Ryan took....slow and steady with no mistakes.

Welcome to DU!

Cheers! :toast:

[Inland]

43. There's another thread about how Ryan

was the 65th person charged in the safe roads investigation. Sixty five until he could go after the big kahuna.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5213202

Welcome to DU.

[RebelOne]

108. Please don't insult pit bulls.

[FreedomAngel82]

118. Yep

But he has a sweet side it seems too from the press conference. :loveya:

[Quixote1818]

15. Well, they said Fitz is a mathematician

who loves to figure out puzzles. I do believe he is constantly trying to out play Rove in a political and legal game of chess. Fitz is simply the better player.

[FreedomAngel82]

119. Yep

Looks like Rove isn't the best in the game either. Not with Harry Reid and Fitzgerald up against him. The boy is going down I think!

[C_U_L8R]

20. Libby is just first domino to tip

and the chain reaction is going
to be amazing as they all fall down.

There's no way they can keep it all
together - keeping all their stories straight
as this whole thing roast under scrutiny.

And just wait until Scooter Baby's trial ...
wooohaaa..... can't wait for the cross examinations...
hope the whole thing is on TeeVee.
Maybe we'll even see Georgie Boy up there
with his hand on a bible (if it don't catch fire)

Yup... the chain reaction is gonna be AMAZING !!!

[calazini]

23. I'm surprised that...

the walls don't cave in on him when he goes!!!

[Peachhead22]

24. Plus, I think today Fitzy sent a message today

He said to future witnesses and interviewees who may not have gotten the message yet: "Do not lie to me or to investigators. I'll stop at nothing to find the truth and when I do I'll go berserker on yo' ass".

[calazini]

31. Did you listen to the press conference?

There's no ums, ahs, not a hint of doubt. This man is brillant and beyond reproach. He knows what he's doing - I'm telling you; this man can get these convictions. He's just waiting for the dominos to fall. 'Cause we all know these people have no hearts and they'd give up their mothers if it served their purposes. He KNOWS that.

[FreedomAngel82]

120. He's a total hero

Ken Starr eat your heart out. I loved how he handled the press conference. I think he started out a little nervous but he took control of the room and didn't play any bs.

[helderheid]

26. If this is the move, I'm on cloud nine!

[jwirr]

32. And by then we will have the new congress elected in 2006

and they will not be afraid to impeach.

[Pepper32]

75. Ahhh, thanks for that great mental image.

[NoSheep]

33. I like your dream.

[The Wielding Truth]

37. So impressed by Fitz. I just want Rove and Cheney and Bush****

and all the other liars that took us to war to be out of office.

[wordpix2]

38. on Olbermann: Rove could be next

Nearly everyone interviewed all night long on MSNBC including Hardball and Olbermann agree: Cheney could be next---a real possibility. Some info given up by Libby late in the game---not enough time to investigate it this time around but investigation goes on---everyone in agreement.

Media saying the WH won't talk about ongoing investigation, Fitz cannot speak about it---that leaves the media and the people to talk about it, I guess---you and me.

I am very concerned about Fitz's protection. He should not be out walking alone with a friend or two. He prosecuted the blind sheik who bombed the Towers in '93, the Mafia, Osama Bin Laden 5 yrs. before 9-11, now this. Fitz, you need to protect yourself or Congress should pay for it.

[calimary]

42. Welcome, wordpix2!!!

Glad you're here, too!

Fun day, 'eh? Good to share it with you. This place is JUST THE BEST!!!

[Tight_rope]

72. Welcome to DU wordpix2. I'm in total agreement!

[FreedomAngel82]

122. Welcome wordpix2!

:hi:

[hang a left]

96. I think Rove is in more physical danger than Fitz.

[FreedomAngel82]

121. I'm sure he's protected

I wouldn't worry about Fitzgerald. He's dealt with BinLaden and the mafia so he can deal with these minons. I was reading a while back here on DU that he once was recieving threats in his mail so he stopped getting his mail at home and recieved it at work. So the guy I think knows how to protect himself.

[Tatiana]

39. Fitz wants CHENEY.

He's just using the threat of spending (in effect) the rest of Scooter's life behind bars to get him to squeal on Cheney. See Jane Hampster's commentary:

<snip>

Now we enter the realm of -- admittedly -- pure speculation. But Fitzgerald has Libby on 30 years worth of counts, and he's got him cold. No wiggle room. Libby may not do 30 years, but he ain't doing 6 months. He is F-U-C-K-E-D fucked. It was the Veep's boon companion himself, David Gergen, who said on MSNBC today that this is squeeze time. It really matters little to a man of 55 whether he is looking at 30 years or 60 -- he'd rather have 60 thrown at him if some of them were shaky and he thought he could use the wobbly ones to get out of the rest.

There is no wobble in the indictments handed down today. It's pretty clear. Libby can deal or swing.

Which brings us to David Radler. Who is David Radler? David Radler was the #2 man at Hollinger International. The day after he was indicted by the US Attorney for the State of Illinois Patrick J. Fitzgerald for looting money from the stockholders of Hollinger, he announced he'd rather "cooperate with investigators" (read: rat out his boss, Conrad Black) than spend the rest of his life perfecting the ultimate starch job in the prison laundry. Radler decided he would take Door #2 and do twenty-nine unpleasant months and pay a fine when the prospect of life in prison became a reality.

That's just the way Patrick Fitzgerald works. If the Hollinger case, and the Ryan case, and the Daley Case, and the Al Quaeda case and the Gambino case are any indication, Fitzgerald will now use what he's got to get more.

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/patrick-fitzgerald-david-radler-and.html

[calazini]

41. Fitz doesn't just want Cheney, he wants Bush

He knows he's at the top of this Ponzi scheme and he won't sit until he gets to all of them. These are just the easy pickins.

He went all the way to the top here in IL and now our former governor is on trial. This man does NOT screw around.

[Tatiana]

47. He can use Cheney to get to Bush.

But in watching the replay of the press conference and listening to Fitz, I really think his eye - at this point - is on Cheney.

He talked about why Libby had lied. He wants to know what the motivation was, why Libby would go through so much trouble to spread the information regarding Plame's identity while disguising the fact that he was the main source of the leak to reporters.

WHO told him to do that and WHY? That's the implied question. We get a small hint presented in the indictment that Cheney told Scooter about Plame. We know that Cheney had a tenuous (at best) relationship with the CIA.

So we've got the CIA sending Joe Wilson to find out about this yellowcake situation.

Look at this from Cheney's MTP appearance of 9/14/03:

MR. RUSSERT: Now, Ambassador Joe Wilson, a year before that, was sent over by the CIA because you raised the question about uranium from Africa. He says he came back from Niger and said that, in fact, he could not find any documentation that, in fact, Niger had sent uranium to Iraq or engaged in that activity and reported it back to the proper channels. Were you briefed on his findings in February, March of 2002?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: No. I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson. A question had arisen. I’d heard a report that the Iraqis had been trying to acquire uranium in Africa, Niger in particular. I get a daily brief on my own each day before I meet with the president to go through the intel. And I ask lots of question. One of the questions I asked at that particular time about this, I said, “What do we know about this?” They take the question. He came back within a day or two and said, “This is all we know. There’s a lot we don’t know,” end of statement. And Joe Wilson—I don’t who sent Joe Wilson. He never submitted a report that I ever saw when he came back.

I guess the intriguing thing, Tim, on the whole thing, this question of whether or not the Iraqis were trying to acquire uranium in Africa. In the British report, this week, the Committee of the British Parliament, which just spent 90 days investigating all of this, revalidated their British claim that Saddam was, in fact, trying to acquire uranium in Africa. What was in the State of the Union speech and what was in the original British White papers. So there may be difference of opinion there. I don’t know what the truth is on the ground with respect to that, but I guess—like I say, I don’t know Mr. Wilson. I probably shouldn’t judge him. I have no idea who hired him and it never came...

MR. RUSSERT: The CIA did.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Who in the CIA, I don’t know.

MR. RUSSERT: This is what concerns people, that the administration hyped the intelligence, misled the American people. This article from The Washington Post about pressuring from Cheney visits: “Vice President Cheney and his most senior aide made multiple trips to the CIA over the past year to question analysts studying Iraq’s weapons programs and alleged links to al Qaeda, creating an environment in which some analyst felt they were being pressured to make their assessments fit wth the Bush administration’s policy objectives, according to senior intelligence officials. With Cheney taking the lead in the administration last August in advocating military action against Iraq by claiming it had weapons of mass destruction, the visits by the vice president and his chief of staff ‘sent signals, intended or otherwise, that a certain output was desired from here,’ one senior agency official said.”
----------------------------------------------------------------

So here, Cheney is very focused, though he pretends otherwise, on Joe Wilson. We see that there is friction between Cheney and the CIA. He went with "his most senior aide," (obviously Libby) to the CIA "multiple" times. The CIA was leaking to the press the fact that Cheney was trying to pressure them to fall in line with the Bush administration policy (read: Cheney's policy). CHENEY wanted to shut them up. Scooter was just his partner-in-crime. Cheney was afraid the CIA would go public with the real facts regarding how we pushed to invade Iraq... so he threatened them. He passed along the info regarding the covert status of Joe Wilson's wife to Libby (not counting on how outraged career agents at the CIA would be and how they would force an investigation) and here we are.

Fitzgerald talked about 4 corners and I think Cheney fits nicely within those four corners and he can get him through Libby. I don't know (despite my wishes and prayers otherwise) that Bush does fit in a way that enough evidence can be obtained to indict him.

Just my 2 cents worth....

[FreedomAngel82]

125. I think it's hard to say who he exactly wants

I think he's just going after whomever he knows for sure was involved and can prove it and knows for sure in his gut and by the facts nobody else was involved whether it leads to Bush or not. Either way I think Bush is doomed. I think we have a good chance of taking back the House and Senate next year and we can impeach him and hold real hearings on everything and prove election fraud, Iraq was a lie and move forward and clean up house.

[LibertyorDeath]

55. Thanks for that !

Sounds like he's just getting started on these treasonous rat bastards!

Love it

[tulsakatz]

63. excellent comment!!

yes, he wants Scooter to know the reality of spending the rest of his life behind bars just for lying to a Grand Jury! Not a wise thing to do........

When Scooter does get a trial, I wonder how they would find an impartial jury? I mean, it's been such a highly publicized investigation.......obviously most people are already either for or against the indictment.

[Tatiana]

66. Scooter may not make it to trial.

He may rat out his boss and cop a plea. I think that's what Fitzgerald is angling for.

[tulsakatz]

131. that's ok........

I'm ok with trading Scooter for Dick! I'd love to see Cheney doing hard time......of course that would never happen but it would be just as good to just see him behind bars!

[tavalon]

88. I hate to tell you this

but there is a huge swath of people that care not one whit about politics. There are many who don't even care enough to vote. They can find a jury.

[FreedomAngel82]

126. So make people you know who don't care do care

Show people how they have to vote. If all the people who are polled in these polls go out and vote we can win back the House and Senate. It's up to us to get people we know to vote in the midterms and vote democratic and show them why they should vote for us.

[FreedomAngel82]

124. I like that and agree

Fitzgerald was for sure sending out a message at his press conference yesterday. He made it perfectly clear that this was a threat to our national security and thus us as a nation by outing this person. She wasn't a nobody like the rightwingers were saying and wanting to believe so badly. I think that Scooter will squeal too. :popcorn: Especially if he has a wife and kids.

[lovuian]

44. Rove has this hanging over his head Oh YA!!!

and he will be called in and questioned again!!!

[calazini]

45. And with all these GJ testimonies...

He won't 'remember' what he said from one to the next so, he's a gonner.

[tulsakatz]

64. that's the problem when you start lying..........

...you forget about the lie you told before!! It's just easier to remember the truth.

[hang a left]

97. Witnesses are entitled to their transcripts. So I am sure he knows

what he said and when.

[FreedomAngel82]

128. But Fitzgerald will

[Singular73]

50. Libby wont talk

Dont be silly.

He knows he will get pardoned.

[tavalon]

89. But before the pardon

comes the public trial.

[hang a left]

98. I agree. But I think Rove will give up Cheney. Then Libby will

retaliate. I don't know if * has been declared off limits. Remember it's no good avoiding prison, or receiving a pardon if you are dead.

[Singular73]

51. Libby wont talk

Dont be silly.

He knows he will get pardoned.

[speedoo]

76. Libby does NOT know he will be pardoned.

He may believe he will be pardoned and he certainly hopes so.

But he cannot be certain. Because he is aware that there is at least the possibility that the Coward may not be politically able to pardon him.

The Coward right now could not get away with a pardon. And there is nothing on the horizon that suggests the Coward's political situation will improve at all. Particularly if Rove remains under investigation and therefore ineffective.

[hang a left]

100. I am sure he has already been told that he has a pardon coming.

It will come at the end of *'s term.

[speedoo]

104. Sure but Libby could spend over a year in jail by then.

And by then I believe there will be additional indictments, so multiple pardons would be necessary.

Libby is an idealogue, so he would be more inclined to protect his neocon buddies than the Coward. But if Cheney and other neocons are indicted as well, he really has no one left to protect.

[hang a left]

105. A year is nothing.

Don't think for a minute that he wouldn't go to jail for a year or two. I don't know why some people make a big deal out of just going to jail. Certain people take falls all the time. They are paid to take falls. Think about it. Lets say someone asked you to go to jail for two years. While you were there, they take care of your family, and when you get out you would receive a million dollars or more. Would you go? I would.

I agree with your opinion that if someone else gives up Cheney, and uncovers what it is he is so willing to take a dive for, then he has lost all of his incentive.

[speedoo]

106. Depends on what is likely to happen during that year.

A year in a federal penitentiary is a very scary thought. A year in a country club facility is not scary.

[symbolman]

138. Have YOU ever been in Jail?

Let me tell you a story. I was tossed into a jail in a Southern State by an ex wife Friendly Judge for "only" 21 days.

I was in LOCKDOWN for the first 5 of those days. Lockdown is for the Violent, Insane, or those who have killed or beaten other prisoners - there was NO reason for ME to be in there as this was a family court ruling, yet there I was - even the wardens would look at me and say, "What are YOU doing in here?" and I'd say, "Hell if I know.." cos it's pretty obvious to most anyone that I'm none of the above..

I laid on a cold stone floor (with arthritis of the spine, real fun) for FIVE days while a man in a dress (they put suiciders in a Dress, real cute) CRIED for the WHOLE time. (Every once in a While just to relieve the monotony and horror I would look over at the guy and say, "So.. what do you want to do Now?.." and he and I would laugh hard for about three minutes and then he'd go back to wailing..)

Next door was a guy I nicknamed "Flipper" (like the dolphin) who was making animals out of his own shit, biting the heads off them and then flushing them down a steel toilet so powerful you could flush a full cracker box down. The Big kind. He'd flushed everything in his cell down the toilet, was naked - had made a gruel of his own feces and was rolling around in it, he'd managed to block the toilet ( I guess with a mattress) and so this Gruel solution of shitwater was washing out into the common area (the other bars we were behind where we got to walk around a steel picnic table once our cell door opened for 1/2 an hour a DAY) and the shitwater was flowing back into ALL of the cells under their doors.. We were shoving newspapers (our only toilet paper) under the door and screaming for someone to mop it up, which someone did many hours later - but you can imagine the FUN that was..

On the other side were a bunch of "gentlemen" emblazoned with Nazi and dollar sign tattoos who had obviously been there many times, this time for killing a person for $60.. they would scream nasty crap incessantly and literally run (the whole two feet of space) and hurl their bodies against the 1/2 plexiglass in front of the steel bars in their cell - LOUD - even BROKE IT..

They'd offer to throw cups of piss and SEMEN on the guys that brought them food.

At night (the lights would dim for two hours) the shrieking, howling, raving, etc was so loud in that area (and I've worked in TWO nuthouses) and was so frightening that at one point I was laying naked in the cell with EVERY bit of clothing I had in the cell TIED around my head, but I still could not make the sound even duller - if I didn't have a loving wife and friends on the outside and know that I was going to eventually get out in "only" 21 days I would have went INSANE.

and that was just a COUNTY jail, not even a prison. The jail I was in has been compared to a South African prison, by CONGRESS.

There's nothing to it, eh?

Don't think that Libby is going to Tennis Court Jail either. Judas Miller didn't, and if a guard had looked the other way she could have easily had a toothbrush that had been sharpened on the floor for a month jammed through her neck or in an ear..

Think about being raped for a cool million. Think about a MAN being raped for a cool million.. Think about what Libby is wondering now, that there is a distinct possibility that he'll have an anus large enough to throw a cat through for 20 years..

His ASPEN will TURN alright, like the cherries on a cop car - he can talk tough, or cute, or spin, but deep down inside he's scared shitless.. the people YOU are talking about are MAFIA guys who get people KILLED in prison if they look at them funny..

Libby ain't part of a real mafia, these are the Mayberry Mafia, and in case you haven't noticed they stab EVERYONE in the back eventually, Noriega (after they ran Coke through his country), Saddam (after he was armed by BUSH 1 and Reagan), EVERYONE - read their history..

Not only that, if they aren't stabbing you in the back, they no longer have use for you and you are dropped like a dog turd flambe'..

Sometimes I wonder if Bush hasn't accidentally beat himself up when he meant to Stab someone Else in the back, hence the bruises :)

Jail is NOT a walk in the park for Anyone.

[FreedomAngel82]

129. And we could have the House and Senate by 2006

and impeach Bush. So no more pardon for Libby.

[Arkana]

53. He's the master (de)bater, all right.

[Ken Burch]

77. David Brooks on the NEWSHOUR is trying to spin this as a VICTORY

because Rove wasn't indicted. He's arguing that this indictment means it was Libby acting alone.

Wonder if Brooks will be saying that in six months?

[tulsakatz]

57. that's a good point!

I think you're right. If Rove had been indicted, they never would have gotten another word out of him!

[mtnsnake]

61. Now THAT'S the kind of thinking I like

It's so refreshing to hear positive thoughts like this than the doom and gloom we heard way too often earlier.

Anyone who thinks Libby is the end of the story is sorely mistaken. This is just all starting to unravel.

[hang a left]

101. I must admit that I was disappointed initially. I expected much more

than one indictee (if that's a word) with the first round. My head started spinning. But after watching Fitz's press conference 3 times, and absorbing it with everything else I know about this case and the Franklin case, I think everything is going to be fine.

[FreedomAngel82]

130. And by studying his past case with the GOP in Illinois

Looking at that case can give you a clue too as to what he's going to do.

[unpossibles]

62. good points

I think they won't hesitate to turn on each other when cornered. Rove is not out to support Bush, he's using Bush.

[Tight_rope]

68. I agree...Fitz wants Rove, Cheney and Bush on a platter.

[upi402]

71. rove=weasel. fitz=intelligent

Rove is a garden variety scheeming weasel.
Rove is finally looking across at his opponent -not at his unsuspecting victims' backs!

F Rove

[frogmarch]

81. What a great thread!

Glad I found it! The thoughts expressed here are in line with the ones I've been thinking all afternoon and evening.

Please keep going. I'm all ears.

[Maven]

82. Right, and furthermore...

Think of who we're dealing with. Do you think someone like Fitzgerald spent 2 years working on this case and WON'T end up indicting someone for the ACTUAL LEAK? I don't.

I think today's indictment was a decoy. He's just getting started.

[zulchzulu]

85. I agree...Rove is the one really in Fitz's sights...oh and um the others

Just by how Fitzgerald spoke about the outing of Plame, you could hear in his voice that he will not be satisified until ALL justice is done...and it will go all the way to the top.

Bush is in a corner...what does a cornered rat do?

Watch out...

[Alamom]

90. Great thread....Thanks.

I went to bed thinking, two years of work just for Libby....this can not be all there is. I'm one of the optimists. I think this is just the beginning.

[yowzayowzayowza]

93. * iz gunna sidestep the whole thing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5216237

[blitzburgh55]

94. Doesn't Rove go everywhere with Bush?

I didn't see him getting on the helicopter going to Camp David yesterday.

[DoyBoy]

99. What if Rove decided to spill the beans...

on the Neo-cons to save himself and w. He would know enough to put everyone in the admin in prison for a long time. And since he has an unnatural fetish with w, I wouldn't put it past him to double-cross the cons to save the two of them.

They turn in clusters...

Rats off a ship.

...or maybe its just mary jane talking.
:evilgrin:

[DemonFighterLives]

103. I think Rove is nearly castrated by Fitz

If Rover tries to make any power play, he will be clamped down on. Rove is more of a stmble bum than we are led to believe. I think that Dumbya and the boys are hoping to play the one bad apple scheme again. It was telling in w*'s last words yesterday, "I will soon pick a Supreme Court nominee". Attempt to move on Dubby, while we drag the rest of your crew through the mud. He still had nothing but praise for Scooter and one has to wonder if dubby will ever stand up for what is right and just.
As Fitzanta said, "Truth is the engine of Justice".

[No Exit]

102. What if Rove WAS indicted, in a sealed indicment?? n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

111. Oh yes

I think so too. Someone on Malloy talked about this last night too and suggested that he's going to use Rove as a witness to try to get more info. Rove is obviously going to corporate so I wouldn't be surprised if Rove tries to put all the blame on Cheney and the others in the WHIG group. Anything to protect Bush. Than it'd be great if Cheney turns in Bush to save his own ass.

[Loge23]

127. Fitz smells a rat

I'd love to see the sceanrio in the lead post played out. But whatever you think, we have to agree that Fitz is a dogged prosecutor. He KNOWS that a major crime has been committed. He merely brushed aside what may turn out ot be a minor player (Libby) for lying to him.
No matter if you are pessimist or an optimist, something else is definitely brewing here.
Demobabe's scenario is similar to how these Fed guys squeeze the Mafia. It could happen.

[longship]

135. Libby still in jeopardy for more charges.

Notably absent were charges of conspiracy. With so many people involved, and with new indictments probably coming, it is very suspicious that indictments did not include conspiracy.

I think Fitz is still finishing that case off, and it will sweep up the rest of these fools into the dust pan of history.

[okieinpain]

137. I'm worried about this judge that fitz's case has been assigned to.