Do we know for FACT that somebody "flipped" in the WH?

[benburch]

Or is that just speculation too in addition to the speculation about who it might have been?

[MadisonProgressive]

1. Yes we know for sure it was Mary matalin

[cynatnite]

3. Who said that?

I haven't read anything that suggested she flipped.

[MadisonProgressive]

12. Here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5089689

[Bunny]

13. Dear god, did you read the subject line?

"Off the wall speculation on who flipped. Mary Matalin?"

Emphasis mine. How does "speculation" translate into "we know for sure"?

[MadisonProgressive]

15. I guess I should have said 'I' know for sure

[Bunny]

16. How can "you" know for sure?

Unless you're Fitz himself???

[MadisonProgressive]

18. It's just a gut feeling...

[cynatnite]

21. Gut feelings have been known to be wrong...

I rely on facts since my gut's wrong about 50% of the time.

[MadisonProgressive]

23. Well call it a wild ass guess then.. geesh!

[cynatnite]

28. Nothing wrong with that...

My gut keeps telling me Cheney is going to get indicted and this is the first time I've let it be known publicly. That's because I expect to be wrong about it.

Your gut tells you things and it's hard to ignore.

Sorry...I didn't mean to nitpick at you. :hug:

[npincus]

32. I hope you're right about Cheney!

[MadisonProgressive]

40. My gut tells me Cheneys going down too!

[dalaigh lllama]

33. Careful!

* feels things thru with his gut, too. ;-)

BTW, that's how Stephen Colbert said he was going to do the news last nite on his show. Rough paraphrase from memory: "Some anchors read the news TO you. I'm going to feel the news AT you."

[Bunny]

46. I hope you're right, and I hope all those bastards go down!

:hi:

[ewagner]

4. Huh?

How do we know that?

By the way, my money is on Matalin too but I haven't seen anything but circumstantial evidence.

[halobeam]

11. Where did you get this information?

I'm searching for it, but am coming up empty... do you have a link?

[King Coal]

29. LOL! That's funny. Good one, MP. I needed that chuckle.

:smoke:

[Reciprocity]

48. Why would she flip? Did she do/know something illegal?

[babylonsister]

2. There was a developing story last night, supposedly

coming from the NY Daily News, but I never did see the actual story.

[DeepModem Mom]

5. Here is the story --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5089396

[benburch]

7. Hmmm...

"Sources" again. I am always suspicious.

[tx_dem41]

34. Yes....I am always suspicious when people, even on this board,..

quote anonmymous "sources". :eyes:

[enid602]

6. definition?

Just to be clear, does 'flipped' mean squealed?

[benburch]

8. Turned State's Evidence.

A cooperating witness or conspirator.

[mmonk]

9. "turned" for the prosecution

[cry baby]

20. "turned"...like the aspens that turn in clusters because the are

all connected by their roots. Really, I want to know what the feck that sentence means!!!!!

[MadisonProgressive]

10. A euphemism for 'telling the truth'

[Mr_Spock]

17. LOL - exactly

Telling the truth is a rare occurance in this WH for sure...

[mmonk]

14. I tend to think someone is leaking

this source info. I think it could be an attorney for that source.

[berner59]

19. Matalin was on Imus this morning...

I missed it but heard Rich's spot where he said she was trashing Wilson and defending the White House in a way over the top manner...

Does that sound like a squealer??

[mmonk]

24. I'm confused

What point are you making?

[berner59]

30. The point was...

She didn't sound like a squealer with her defense of the White House... But Rich was kind of taken aback by her over the top-ness of her defense - apparently calling Wilson a clown and really trashing him...

[mmonk]

38. Yeah, Matalin is not my top suspect

in flipping. If there is a source and not merely talk, I think that the source (for the speculation) isn't from the prosecurial side, but from someone's defense team.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. Either a squealer or someone who is afraid for her own ass. I heard Rich

discussing this too this morning.

[magnolia]

41. Maybe...???

The lady "doth protest too much!"

[crispini]

22. It's just "sources" again.

More grist for the rumor mill, but nothing that's on-the-record confirmed.

It smells right, but it's all just smoke until the indictments come down.

[Lerkfish]

26. I think the fog of info on this is pea-soup thick at the moment...

I await with bated breath the real info, but until then, we're all just speculatin, I think.

I've seen here at DU suggestions of Tenet, Powell, Fleischer...now matalin?

I just hope that its someone high enough to do damage. I don't know, but I wouldn't think matalin would do it. Tenet would be the best one to have flipped.

but I'm just dreamin at this point.

what adds to teh confusion is the leaks of "sources", which could be anyone from Jeff Gannon to Rove himself. I think distraction works to the Repubs advantage.

[symbolman]

27. I'm getting sick of Speculation being used as NEWS FLASHES

here. It insults all those who have done voluminous research and shared the POSSIBILITIES..

I could easily sit here on the DU (after having spent the last year researching and making a film about this, 150 minutes on 2 DVDs of FACTS) and "create" TAKEBACKTHEMEDIA.COM NEWS FLASH's but I'm not going to create FALSE FACTS that way, or for that kind of material gain (sending people in droves to your site to be hammered with ADS)..

And that's the problem, and you see it right here - someone soon says it's a FACT, that the story is REAL (when it's NOT), or that what they are saying "Cheney may be target, shown NOW to be part of WHIG group" when there are PHOTOS all over the web on REAL news sources showing EVERYONE IN THE WHIG GROUP..

C'mon people, don't fall for gossip.. we've seen that before, anyone remember someone who had a BIG STORY coming around the bend, had the GOODS on BUSH, etc - so everyone rushed to give them money, then never heard about that particular story again, but a NEW CRISIS and SMOKING GUN would arrive as soon as donations started slowing down..

And THAT was at the very time when the DU WAS ASKING FOR DONATIONS, that was the worst part to me..

Let's stick with the facts. I've done the work and made a Chronology to help people understand and separate all the facts from SPIN and gossip, and Speculation..

That's what DRUDGE does and he's an asshole, that's what the Media does and they've used lies to KILL thousands of people..

Let's not go that route, eh?

Good call Ben

[marions ghost]

36. It's very clear

that this is all speculation at this point. People giving educated guesses is fine with me--it's what you'd expect in a tense waiting game like this. I don't think most people here are taking any of this to be The Sacred Truth yet. Relax. It's just filling a momentary void. You sound like you think only certain people are qualified to be Moses. The Truth is very slippery these days... everybody has to make up their own minds.

Yes, of course we have to wait for the facts to be sure. DUH.

[symbolman]

37. You seem to have not noticed my main point

that some on this board are using gossip and just plain bullshit to further their goals of upping the numbers on their site, and actually making MONEY while doing it with information already FREELY available and "repackaged"..

I spent a YEAR researching this, I KNOW the difference between bullshit and FACTS.

I've been fighting the goddam media for four years now, won Hollywood awards, been on the O'Reilly show once, MSNBC interviews twice on Scarborough's shows, boycotted Limbaugh for a TON of money and robbed him of MANY companies support, made three films, have over 50 Flash political ads (which our site basically invented), and was one of 14 finalists out of 1500 entries for MoveOn's Bush in 30 Seconds Contest.. for my ARMY OF ONE ad which ran 3000 times during the Primary, not to mention I'm a Veteran from the Nam era..

that's the short resume.. so don't DUH me.. I've EARNED the RIGHT to call Bullshit.

I've damn near lost my house spending the mortgage money to fight this administration and YOU call me "stupid"?

I won't stand for that. I fought for your right to have free speech to DUH people and I'll stand by that, but how about using it WISELY and not insult people who have given their very LIVES to fight this peril, only to hear people spouting Speculations as Fact, AND to make money..

[marions ghost]

45. OK well

you certainly aren't the best advertisement for your point. Free speech is: "You say Bullshit. I say Duh." So what? Nobody called you stupid. Rather, you seemed to be saying that to speculate on anything is um...not intelligent. Seems too extreme to say that, is all I'm sayin. Suggest to take whatever this frustration is out on your real targets. Present a coherent case against whoever/whatever these websites are and I'm sure people around here could get the point. I agree it's hard to know where the truth is these days and one has to seek opinions and check facts before trusting any source. Seems most people I know operate that way. As a purveyor of facts, you have to sell your facts against others. And accept that as a competitive thing in a society where everything is marketed. And don't underestimate your audience :shrug:

I have thought and studied a lot about this problem of how to define what's true. Fact is, to me, the Absolute Truth always seems to be out there (way out there sometimes), a little out of reach no matter how hard you try. I have found that you can present all the facts you want and people will use them as they will and believe as they will. And that's the best you can do. And still, it IS worth doing. Peace.

[npincus]

31. I think Novak's testimony is the key

Novak is a part of this story that gets short shrift in the MSM Plamegate coverage. But he is central to the substance of the case against the WH (officials).

He is the one who PUBLISHED the name "Valerie Plame" with her CIA status-- not "Valerie Flame" and not "Victoria WIlson". He cited his sources as (2) high-level administration officials. One can surmise it was either Rove or Libby, perhaps BOTH. Novak must have given this information to the grand jury already, as we know he did not go to prison for witholding his sources, like Benedict Judy. Both Rove and Libby testified to the grand jury already- Rove 4 times- and likely have already perjured themselves by denials of their role or knowledge of what Fitzgerald has determined they MUST have known. Such as Plame's covert status because it was on the memo that was circulated on Air Force 1. I can imagine that Fitzgerald has amassed a treasure trove of evidence against these 2.

Novak must have spilled the beans and named his sources and that's where this all begins, and ends. He has been VERY quiet. I think all the pressure casued him to crack up on CNN.

[symbolman]

35. I also think that people

are reading that Rove "withheld" the Cooper Info from Fitz and his investigators, but no one seems to be recalling that Rove had to talk to the FBI FIRST..

and I'm pretty sure he LIED to them as he used to USE them to destroy people in Texas even before he had any real power..

So Fitz no doubt has TWO counts of Rove Lying about not saying anything to reporters at least..

Speculation of course.. maybe I should post that as a NEWS FLASH for my site!

Kidding :)

Good thinking here..

[Carni]

39. Your Novak theory makes a lot of sense

If he had not talked he would have been in jail with Miller.

In addition Novak has apparently fallen off the planet because you hear nothing about him.

BTW didn't Rove also use Novak to leak to back during the Bush the First campaign? I believe Rove was forced to resign over it?

[symbolman]

42. Rove has leaked to Novak

TWICE during Bush Sr's run and/or administration..

[Carni]

44. I thought so/Thanks EOM

[symbolman]

43. There's now an article

on the board about someone flipping in the White House, but I don't trust the source still.. tho someone mentioned that they have syndicated folks like Helen Thomas (I actually got to TOUCH her, shake her little hand once, proudest day of my life, they should build a statue for her in a big Media Park somewhere)..

[benburch]

47. Helen's statue should be on the Mall.

Facing the White House so she can keep an eye on it forever.