Front Line in Day Laborer Battle Runs Right Outside Home Depot - NYT

[VolcanoJen]

Front Line in Day Laborer Battle Runs Right Outside Home Depot

There are two Americas.

Excerpt:

Morning after morning in city after city, contractors as well as homeowners needing an extra hand or two drive up to a Home Depot and hire laborers to paint walls, nail down roofing or trim branches, usually for $8 to $10 an hour. Not only has this caused friction between the stores and neighboring businesses and homeowners who do not want the men around, but it has also thrust the company into the nationwide debate about what to do about these workers, the majority of them illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America.

In Illinois, several Hispanic groups are angry with the company because 40 day laborers have been arrested in recent months, accused of criminal trespassing at a Home Depot in Cicero. One Hispanic shopper was arrested by mistake.

In California, a group called Save Our State has held protests at numerous Home Depots, asserting that the company has aided illegal immigration. But in Los Angeles, a city councilman has proposed requiring all new large home-improvement stores to build shelters that would provide day laborers with basic amenities like toilets and drinking water.

Here, in Austin, an immigrants' rights group is pressing Home Depot to stop threatening day laborers with fines and arrest and to allow a grassy lot behind one store to be used as a place for them to congregate.

But the company is not eager to see its parking lots filled with day laborers.

[Why Syzygy]

1. Maybe now

I have heard EVERYTHING.

Shopper arrested by mistake.

They want water and toilets to hang out and get jobs?

I just cannot believe this is America.

[opihimoimoi]

2. Yeah, and food /soft drinks too

[Why Syzygy]

3. Did we say

this is the home of the free and the BRAVE? Or a lunch picnic for illegal workers stealing our stuff?

I have no patience for these. Sorry. That may not be the liberal line. But they need to go on home and do something in their own country to make life worthwhile.

[supernova]

4. People come here because

there is is no or next to no economic opportunity at home. Unless you're Native American, all of us are from somewhere else.

I wish there were a better way to go about this.

[Skidmore]

7. There is.

Punish the companies that use the labor of undocumented workers/illegal aliens. Do not trade with countries that do not promote fair labor practices. This idea that the global markets create freedom is as erroneous as that of trickle down economics. Global markets and trickle down both create institutionalized servitude.

[supernova]

8. Even if this worked, you wouldn't stop

people from migrating to other places.

Ever since that first person walked out of Africa, people have moved around. What's artifical is this recent concept of political boundaries. We have to find ways of dealing with it productively, rather than simply punishing people for things they're going to do anway.

[BuddhaGirl]

36. good post!

n/t

[Why Syzygy]

9. I happen to be

Native American. But then we are all from somewhere else too. Aren't we all. That gives no right to people to come stealing. Just as our land was stolen, it is being stolen again.

No I do not feel sorry for these people at all. We all have to do what we can do. Mexico is one of the richest countries in the world for native resources. It does not involve standing around on a street corner.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Why Syzygy]

15. I adore Latinos

I don't like people coming over to steal my stuff.
Do YOU? There is food all over the world. Get used to it.

[theboz]

18. I also don't lie about thefts

People coming here to work are obviously not stealing, due to the whole "WORK" portion of that. Yes, some thieves do cross the border, some are already here, and there are thieves within any large group of people. However, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is that people are being racially targeted for arrests, including people who are actually shopping at Home Depot.

[Jack_DeLeon]

27. What of your stuff is getting stolen?

[TomClash]

5. Hey New York Times! Look Here!

Guess how much construction in NYC is done with "day laborers"? Duh.

[Speed8098]

6. "Guess how much construction in NYC is done with "day laborers"? Duh."

Yeah, and the going rate these days is $100.00 per day.

Here in Suffolk County Long Island a day laborer won't work for less than that.

Hmmmmmm, didn't * say they do jobs Americans won't?


I know a ton of guys that would be happy to get $100.00 per day regardless of the type of work.

$12.50 pr hr isn't too shabby.


My next question is: If these people won't work for less than $100.00 per day, then why are they living 20,40,60 to a house?

Several houses here in Farmingville have been closed due to this kind of overcrowding.
Any thoughts?

[LizW]

10. Familiar story

This has been an issue in my city for years. The day laborers don't hang out at Home Depot (it's too far from where they live) but they hang out on the street where most of the older apartment complexes are.

This is a mostly white, mostly affluent suburb, and I've heard ALL the arguments. "They bring crime." "They urinate in public." "They harass our little girls." "They belong to Mexican gangs." "They do drugs."

A couple of years ago, the city, in cooperation with the Catholic Charities, opened a Multicultural Center to serve as a resource for the day laborers and their families. The idea was sold as a way to move the day laborers off the main street to a less visible location, away from other businesses. In addition to providing a place for job pick-up, the Center helped with ESL classes, health care, banking issues, and other stuff.

Then we got a new mayor and mostly new city council. They shut the Center down in a heartbeat. They claimed it was a health hazard because of the men urinating and defecating in public. They claimed the men were selling heroin out back. They claimed the men were parking their cars where they weren't allowed. They claimed there was prostitution.

It is a really divisive issue in a lot of cities, and the sad thing is the cities don't really have the power to solve the problem. The illegal immigrants are gong to come, and employers are going to hire them because people love the relatively cheap labor they provide. The prevailing attitude among white people here is, "We want them to do the work, we just don't want to see them on the streets." Most people won't admit it, but it's true.

[supernova]

11. I agree with you

Immigrants often get it both ways.

[Speed8098]

13. You mean "Illegal" Immigrants

I just don't get it myself. I'm pretty far left of center, but this is an issue that causes me to say :wtf:

LEGAL immigration is the backbone of this country. ILLEGAL immigration should not be tolerated.

A crime is a crime.

If I go out on my front lawn and spark up a doobie, I'd be arrested in a flat second, yet illegal immigrants walk the streets with confidence, and in some cases arrogance.

I have a friend who lives in Farmingville. He had his home appraised last month for a refinancing, as did I. His home and property are much larger than mine. His home is 40 years younger than mine. His appraisal came in less than mine.

2, just 2 blocks away from him, the town shut down a 4 bedroom house with 64 residents. 64!! Now they have set up a tent city in the back yard of the house that was shut down.

The police can do nothing.

How would you like to live next door to that?

Don't set up shelters for these criminals, send them back. Let them go through the process just as my family did 5 generations ago.

I know that sounds intolerant, but if you saw what they are doing to the communities around me, you'd adopt the same attitude.

[alarimer]

14. I guess property value are more inportant than lives

Punish the people who fucinkg hire them! WHy the hell is this so hard to understand.

This is just about the most intolerant thing I have ever heard on a supposedly liberal website. Pretty damn racist to, if you are assuming they are all criminals. Ignorant, just plain ignorant.

[Why Syzygy]

16. No. It isn't.

Do you draw a line? WHEN does it become stealing to you?

It has NOTHING to do with race. It has to do with heritage and community service. They should go serve their's and quit draining ours.

What is your lib bent?

[Jack_DeLeon]

28. What the fuck are you claiming is stolen?

I claim things are stolen when someone physically comes over and takes something that actually belongs to me.

I have no idea what you claim to be stealing so get with the fucking program and elaborate.

[alarimer]

31. The whole thing about property values

Which I guess is what is claimed to be stolen is a racist canard. White people have said it to keep blacks out of their neighborhoods, etc.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Speed8098]

25. Let's get something straight here

I don't think the police should be able to round people up for simply being poor.

Neither do I, and I challenge you to show me where I said that.

So let's get this straight. You want the police to round people up for being poor, and you would rather complain about the situation rather than help the poor people improve their lives. Why do you consider yourself to be left of center when you hate people for being oppressed? You are sounding like Barbara Bush.

For someone who never met me or spoke with me IN YOUR LIFE, you certainly make some far out assumptions.

At least you admit that you are a right-wing racist bigot. If we can get you to open your eyes and start to feel empathy for other human beings who are suffering you might have some hope of becoming a decent person.

You should always follow the old saying,"It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Have you even seen any of my other posts? Did you bother to do a search before you attacked me?

You are trying to twist my words to fit your anger. If you have some legitimate reasons that prove ILLEGAL immigration is a good thing, by all means let's debate them, but don't think you can come here and scream about something just because you don't agree with me. Make a point, provide links to documentation that back up those points and we'll have a friendly discussion, but if you call people right wing bigots and other nasty names, you won't last long.

Also, I live in Houston, Texas. There are tons of undocumented immigrants, and I have known a few and heard their stories. I have talked to them andI know their motivations, their difficulties, and their character. I also have seen first-hand the legal immigration process and all the holes and problems with it. If you want to blame someone for the problems, blame yourself and your government. Blame the people who have created the poverty in Latin America (e.g. our government and corporations), blame the people who use illegal immigration as a form of slavery (again, our government and the corporations), but don't blame the victims.

Re-read what you posted. Take a deep breath and try again. I'm not your enemy, nor am I a right wing bigot

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. My heart bleeds for poor Home Depot. And, the racists who support them.

Desperate people risk their lives to come here and seek work. And, "liberals" condemn them.

[theboz]

23. Many liberals were pro-slavery in the past too

Don't worry, history will show that people like you and I are on the correct side of the argument, not the bigots. It is unfortunate that so many Americans, even so-called "liberals" are still so narrow-minded and selfish that they would condemn people to death for such "horrible crimes" as trying to feed their families.

It's sad that people are so stupid, especially when they claim to be on our side, but it's life in America. Most Americans are idiots, so some of that has to bleed over into our group as well

[Canadian Socialist]

19. We have a similar situation here in Calgary

Cash Corner - Relocation Study

“Cash Corner” – an informal, curbside casual labour hiring location along Centre Street, has operated in the Victoria Community for over 50 years. Complaints regarding the activity have been expressed by local businesses for many years; the presence of such a large number of men in a single location being intimidating to pedestrians walking through the area. It is also disturbing to residents, local building owners, tenants and their employees. The situation is aggravated by the presence of a large number of homeless people in the area who make use of local support facilities such as the Mustard Seed.

Victoria Crossing is currently conducting a study to gain an understanding of the issues surrounding Cash Corner, the reasons for the use of this system, and is investigating the possibility of relocating and revamping the system as it currently functions. Consultants Glenn Lyons and Sue McIntyre have been contracted to develop a methodology to identify the root issues and problems with the system, and to develop strategies to improve, and possibly relocate, this operation.

Results and recommendations have been received by the BRZ, and discussions have ensued with City of Calgary representatives to investigate possibilities for relocation.

However, it looks like the BRZ & the City are trying to find an equitable solution.

[Coventina]

21. All I can say is, if people didn't hire them, they wouldn't congregate

there.

Why arrest the workers?

It should be easy enough to arrest the people coming to hire them.

That would solve the "problem" much more quickly.

[TahitiNut]

22. "We must fight poverty over there so we don't have to fight it here!"

Wouldn't it be nice if there were some kind of ethical parallelism behind the empty rhetoric of the Busholini Regime? Quite obviously, the enormous inequity in the distribution of income in Mexico (and many Latin American "banana republics") creates a huge, powerless underclass and sustains a small, very wealthy ruling class. This, of course, is the direction we're going in the US as well. Mexico is just one clear and obvious example of the lying hypocrisy of "trickle-down economics." It is also the "wet dream" of those fascists for whom their own material comfort just isn't enough; those who only begin to feel such comfort when surrounded by others in miserable, impoverished conditions. Under this banana Republican regime, we're importing poverty rather than exporting freedom and equity.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Beautifully said. The immigrants aren't the enemy.

Unfortunately, for some here, concern for the poor ends when the poor are in or from another country.

[Speed8098]

26. I'm sorry, but that's just wrong

It's wrong of you to say that.

In my mind being illegal doesn't necessarily mean being poor.

Besides, being poor is not an excuse to break the law.
If that were the case I'd have become a criminal years ago, because believe me, I know what it means to be poor.
Withhout laws we have chaos.

Read my earlier post, these guys demand $100.00 per day here in NY and get it. I know this because my neighbor hired a couple of them last week to help him with the landscaping. I asked him what he was paying them and he told me $100.00 each was the cheapest he could find. I told him he was nuts, my 18 year old nephew would've worked for less. He needs extra money for gas to get back and forth to his minimum wage job.

I also agree with the idea that we need to penalize those that are hiring these people.

I'm compassionate to a point, but when I see what illegal immigration is doing to my neighboring communities, I have to draw the line.

[fleabert]

29. out of curiosity...

how many hours did these people work in one day to earn the 100.00?

how much did it cost for them to reach the job site?

what is the cost of living in that area?

[Speed8098]

32. "out of curiosity..."

how many hours did these people work in one day to earn the 100.00?


He kept them over there about 6 hours

how much did it cost for them to reach the job site?

They walk to where they gather and people like my neighbor pick them up, so the answer to your question is $0.00.


what is the cost of living in that area?


It sucks. We have some of the highest property taxes in the country.

All the more reason to get the illegals out and let some residents fill these jobs.

Here's only one example of the behavior residents are forced to put up with.
(snip)
(10/10/05) MELVILLE - Two teens are behind bars Monday accused of beating and robbing gay men at gunpoint.

Police say on at least two occasions Copiague residents Victor Lopez, 18, and David Andrade, 19, and a third suspect lured gay men from a park and ride in Melville to a wooded area. It's there police say the teens beat and robbed their victims.

Lopez and Andrade, who police say are undocumented immigrants from Honduras, are charged with first-degree robbery as a hate crime and unlawful imprisonment as a hate crime. The two face 25 years behind bars.

On top of that, they ignore our zoning laws and fill rental houses until they are overflowing. There has been at least one case of 64 people living in one 4 bedroom house. Several others have been closed because 30-40 people were living in them.

I know I sound intolerant, but it's a terrible situation and it needs to be addressed. I'm sorry if that offends some of you.

[fleabert]

33. sorry, but I don't believe your friend.

100 dollars per person for six hours of work? undocumented work? They are probably trying to impress you with their money. either that or they worked them for 10-12 hours and are just ashamed.

why didn't you report your friend to the IRS for hiring illegal workers?

do you know how far they have to walk to get picked up? do they have health care? do they eat three times a day? do they have children? do they have extended family that rely on them for their meals too, such as sick or infirm parents? do they also hold other jobs, perhaps with fake identification that allows our government to take out taxes they will never be able to collect? (surplus anyone?)

and... oh my god...you mean to tell me that people who police say are in this country illegally commit crimes? Holy shit! Citizens NEVER commit crimes! It's all the fault of the illegals! Run them out! They're taking OUR jobs, they do drugs, they rape, they steal, they kill, they're insane, they can't speak properly... read a newspaper article from the early part of the 20th century about black people...all the same bullshit was piled on them.

it's the new, acceptable racism, all tied up in a neat new word 'illegals' instead of 'n_____r'. and it disgusts me just the same.

MY FAMILY DID NOT DO ANY OF THE THINGS OF WHICH YOU SPEAK, AND THEY CAME HERE ILLEGALLY. sometimes, it is the only way to escape a cycle of poverty, and things do change for most people who come here illegally. My family did everything they could to get their things in order as soon as they could, unfortunately, that takes MONEY, the one thing the most desparate of people do not have.

so yes, you do sound intolerant, and yes, I am deeply offended.

[Speed8098]

34. "sorry, but I don't believe your friend."

I don't care whether you believe it or not, but I watched them work right outside my front windows.

do you know how far they have to walk to get picked up? do they have health care? do they eat three times a day? do they have children? do they have extended family that rely on them for their meals too, such as sick or infirm parents? do they also hold other jobs, perhaps with fake identification that allows our government to take out taxes they will never be able to collect? (surplus anyone?)

Are you kidding me??? What about the residents?? Do you have any idea what the median home price is here on Long Island??
What about the unemployed Americans that are struggling to keep their homes? What about the 20,000 homeless that would love to earn $100.00 per day, even if they had to work ALL DAY LONG?

MY FUCKING FAMILY DID NOT DO ANY OF THE THINGS OF WHICH YOU SPEAK, AND THEY CAME HERE ILLEGALLY.


Then they were criminals. The key word in your statement was: ILLEGALLY
If a guy robs your house and then stays out of trouble for 5 years or more, should he not be charged with a crime?

My family didn't do any of these things either and I am 6th or 7th generation American. What's your point?

My point is that the crime rate in the areas that have an influx of illegals has risen. It's not personal, and it's not to say EVERY illegal immigrant is a criminal.
But to ignore the problem is WRONG.

[fleabert]

38. I never said to ignore the problem.

why didn't you call anyone on your friend, who is contributing to the problem by hiring people without asking for paperwork or paying taxes?

I cannot believe you compare someone trying to make a living by WORKING to breaking and entering and stealing personal property.

did you check my profile? I live in CA, I think I know a little bit about high cost of living and a high immigrant population. (legal and otherwise) It doesn't mean anything to me, because these are PEOPLE, and that is way more important to me than property.

The human reason individuals choose to risk everything by coming here illegally is so vastly more influential on my opinions than a landscaping 'job' that some teenager missed out on... a teenager that the minute they were born they had more opportunities than some people have handed to them in a lifetime.

why is your focus on the people struggling to feed a family, both here and in another country? why isn't it on working to prosecute businesses and individuals that make it more advantageous for people to risk their lives to come here than to stay in the country in which they were born. why is your rant not against this 'friend' who is part of the problem? why don't you lobby for advocacy groups to fairly represent these people who so deparately want to live here, and make it easier for the poor to do so legally?

ps- I edited my post moments after posting it, since I got a little hot and typed without thought in a couple spots. I apologize for that. I am trying to not get too upset, but I don't think you understand how personal this issue is for some people, and just how offensive it is.

[Speed8098]

40. You make too many assumptions

You said:
a teenager that the minute they were born they had more opportunities than some people have handed to them in a lifetime.

How on earth can you assume to know anything about anyone you don't know?

why is your focus on the people struggling to feed a family, both here and in another country?

My focus is on people that come here LEGALLY and still struggle.
Look, why don't you tell me what you see about illegal immigration that is positive. The illegal immigrants may pay taxes on a false ID and they'll never see a refund, that's negative. The illegal immigrants coming into my area live 20 - 30 per house, that's negative. The contractors that employ the illegal immigrants are avoiding the tax man, that's negative. Illegal immigrants use the emergency room as their doctor because they have no insurance, that's negative.
Please sir, post something positive, I'm begging you.

And remember, it isn't fair that there are people who went through the system and came here legally and they can't get that job because the illegal immigrant is cutting corners.

So you go ahead, tell me what's positive?

[fleabert]

41. what is positive?

I met the love of my life and a wonderful family because a man decided to one day come to this country and see if he could make it if he brought his own family the next time he came. He could not afford it at the time, but he finally did it, after coming here illegally the first time. Had he never come, I would not be with him now.

The other positive? Ask one of those people of whom we are speaking...they can tell you better than I can. And if you can't see it, blinding as it is, I can't help you.

[Speed8098]

42. Personal? You give me a personal experience?

I'm interested in what's good for my country, not just what's good for me.
That's the problem with todays society. We are in the feel good generation.
"If it's good for me, to hell with everyone else", seems to be the mantra.

All that screaming and all you come up with in the end is that you found love with someone who came here illegally. :spank:

[fleabert]

44. you cannot read.

my husband did not come here illegally, his grandfather did.

if you can't see my personal story and extrapolate it to the big picture, you just don't get it.

it's about people, and their lives. That is what is important to me, on a personal level and a politcal level.

[Speed8098]

45. "it's about people, and their lives"

It's you that doesn't get it.

But have a nice life anyway. :)

[fleabert]

46. I just think my comment includes ALL people, not just some of them.

arbitrarily chosen because of where they happen to have been born. I'd have a much nicer life if I didn't keep running into racism on DU.

:puke:

[Speed8098]

49. It isn't racism

That's a cop out. I'm sick and tired of people invoking racism to defend the less than above board behavior of someone in a minority.
There are many cases of true racism in this country and you weaken the impact of it when you act like the kid who cried wolf.

I don't care what race you are, or what country you come from, Ireland, Germany, Italy, Mexico,........... it doesn't matter. If you are here illegally, you are committing a crime, end of story. Now tell me, how is that racism?? Because you say so? Wrong.

[fleabert]

51. saying that being here illegally is a crime isn't racist,

it's how one approachs the problem, how one addresses it, the language one uses to discuss it, and the attitude that is projected towards the people involved that is racist.

I am not an idiot, I understand the fact that the word 'illegal' connotes a crime is being commited, I think the larger crime is, in fact, how this group of people is set up to fail, and are treated once they do.

There are plenty of laws on the books that are archaic and do not fit with them times in which we live, and they are not enforced nor expected to be enforced. I am not saying immigrations shouldn't be monitored or bound by laws, I am saying the laws need to be changed.

The system is fucked up, I do not blame the people who are stuck in it. the system needs an overhaul, and one that is more inclusive and doesn't make it more difficult to get in legally, but makes it EASIER to get in legally.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. If that were the case - then why is your friend hiring them?

Your post makes no sense. Are you saying that there are "legal" 18 year old "minimum wage" workers turning down $100 per day jobs? If so, they are too dumb to do the work.

I've been poor too. Hungry, homeless, poor. I'm also the son of an immigrant who came to this country to escape poverty. What do you have against people making a living?

[Speed8098]

39. I never said anywhere that 18 year olds were turning down jobs

Here, let me repost it for you:

It's wrong of you to say that.

In my mind being illegal doesn't necessarily mean being poor.

Besides, being poor is not an excuse to break the law.
If that were the case I'd have become a criminal years ago, because believe me, I know what it means to be poor.
Withhout laws we have chaos.

Read my earlier post, these guys demand $100.00 per day here in NY and get it. I know this because my neighbor hired a couple of them last week to help him with the landscaping. I asked him what he was paying them and he told me $100.00 each was the cheapest he could find. I told him he was nuts, my 18 year old nephew would've worked for less. He needs extra money for gas to get back and forth to his minimum wage job.

I also agree with the idea that we need to penalize those that are hiring these people.

I'm compassionate to a point, but when I see what illegal immigration is doing to my neighboring communities, I have to draw the line.

Do you see me saying anywhere that 18 year olds were turning down jobs??

Your post makes no sense.
Please elaborate on that statement. Tell me what you think doesn't make sense and I will be happy to clarify.

What do you have against people making a living
Where did I say that???

I'm also the son of an immigrant who came to this country to escape poverty.

I'm happy your father was able to make a life for you. Let me ask you, do you and your father obey the laws of the land? Are you homeowners? Do you have jobs? Do you pay taxes? What country are you from, and would that country tolerate me coming there and ignoring it's laws?



Do you believe that the ends always justify the means?

[fleabert]

30. I can't wait...

:popcorn:

racist bullshit will follow...

I'll sit back and count how many times the words 'they' and 'them' are used... in reference to the people from Mexico, not the Americans that hire these alleged illegal immigrants, of course.

[shrike]

37. Can't blame them for hanging out there

If employers drive up there looking for day laborers, of course they're going to hang out there. That's the place where you work. Logical ...

They're not STEALING anything so far as I can see. The illegal immigrants issue is something entirely different. Our country has been getting illegal immigrants from day one, and they've always been controversial. I agree it's a problem, and politicians seem no closer to solving it. OTOH, I have a friend who came to this country illegally (as a child; her parents came legally), and she's now a productive, tax-paying citizen, though she's so disgusted with Bush right now she's actually thinking of going back to Mexico.

Xenophobia is also a problem -- probably exacerbated by the illegals issue, among other things.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

43. Don't we essentially break even on illegal immigrants?

Isn't the cost of their ER visits, etc. offset by their cheap labor and the lower prices that result?

[Bridget Burke]

47. That's what I've heard.

Especially here in Texas, where there's no state income tax. Everyone pays our sales taxes (which will be getting higher). And increases in property taxes ARE passed on to renters.

I think that some assume that every brown face they see must be undocumented. Why, then, do I see so many signs in Spanish offering help with Income Tax? (Probably many of the signs in other languages say the same thing, but I can't read Korean, Chinese or Arabic.)

Some of the loudest complaints come from parts of the country where brown faces are rarely seen.

[NorthernSpy]

48. who's "we"?

Working class Americans endure more competition for jobs and consequently lower wages.

Rich folks get to buy labor at bargain prices.

One loses; the other gains. Average that, and I guess you could say that "we" break even.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

50. We = consumers.

Isn't the number of consumers that benefit from lower prices via cheap labor greater than the number of working-class people that are negatively affected by illegals in terms of job/wage losses?