Why do people who make between $40-$150 grand think they're BILLIONAIRES?

[devilgrrl]

Just wondering :shrug:

[LSK]

1. Credit

Allows them to buy buy buy and pay another day.

[elehhhhna]

4. DING DING

You soooooooooooooooo win.

[Captain Hilts]

2. Men, in particular, think they will become millionaires.

I was in polling for eight years.

Men have far more confidence in their long term economic condition than women have. All women seem to worry about becoming bag ladies.

[triguy46]

6. As well they should...

if hubby dumps them for a trophy wife.

[NNadir]

17. You don't think this remark is a little sexist?

I would never dream of dumping my wife for a little girl, never even dream of it. I owe every bit of happiness I have known in my adult life to her, and my biggest hope is to die first so I don't ever have to live without her.

By the way, my business prospects are excellent, thank you.

[triguy46]

21. No, based on facts..

Divorced women find their incomes and their retirements to be about half of their husbands. It would not have to be for a trophy, it could be for any number of reasons, even at her choice or her fault. But it is a fact that divorce is highly correlative to lower income for women.

[NNadir]

25. What I am discussing is the contention that all husbands want trophy

wives as soon as they're wealthy.

I understand that divorce is hard on people financially, but that is NOT what I found sexist.

I guess you didn't get it though.

[triguy46]

48. Oh no! not by any means!

Hell, I've been married to the same woman for 28 years, no way I'm changing, I still haven't learned all the rules! On the other hand, we do know that 50% end in divorce, whether for trophy or not, the woman gets the short end of the stick.

[readmoreoften]

112. boy i'm glad i'm a lesbian...

No 'hubby' to rely on. No fear of being a bag lady when he leaves.

[girl gone mad]

7. As a former bag lady...

(well, not exactly, but I have been homeless), I worry. No matter how much I have saved, I always worry that I'll lose everything.

[Captain Hilts]

10. I do too and so does a millionaire I know. That's the way women...

think. And that's the way men think.

That's just the way it is. Neither is realistic when you come to think of it.

[Lisa]

33. it wasn't long ago when women could be left destitute ...

So even if it may not be "realistic" today for some of us, I'm not surprised that women are haunted by this possibility. We heard about it from our mothers, aunts, grandmothers ... sometimes in combination with advice about "this is why you have to find yourself a good man". (In my mom's case, it was "this is why you have to finish your schooling and find a decent job ... and if you get married, don't turn financial control over to him.")

It's the usual thing today for many women to have their own jobs and careers outside the home, and their own bank accounts too ... but my mom (now in her 70s) says that many of the friends she kept in touch with, from high school or even college, did not have financial independence. They were always worrying about their spouse leaving or keeling over on them, and knowing that they didn't have the skills/experience to get a job that would enable them to replace the lost earnings. One woman had never written a check -- she got married when she was still in her teens, and her husband saw to all of that.

I couldn't imagine not having a bank account or a credit card, or having to fight with male siblings for an equal share of my parents' estate -- but a lot of women experienced this, within living memory.

As for my dad's family -- there were a bunch of boys and 2 girls -- one of them was unmarried -- and because she was obliged by family tradition to stay at home and look after her aging parents, she never finished her schooling. When they died, she was literally out on the street, because a couple of her brothers decided to sell the family home without consulting her. She ended up living at the YWCA for awhile, and even now, she's barely getting by -- nobody wanted to hire a 40-something woman with no education.

[Captain Hilts]

84. Very true. Yesterday's London Daily Telegraph had an article

about how elderly women in England are economically so much worse off than elderly men. I'm not sure it's all the different here.

But women now have more economic power, so while they are economically more vulnerable than men, it's not as bad as it used to be.

[Lisa]

115. well, there are still situations ...

Even given that women may tend to be better off than in previous eras, as you say, things can still happen. My college roommate (a management professional with a postgraduate degree) had a domestic dispute with her then-husband last year, and had to leave the house in a hurry. She had a suitcase of clothes, and that was it. She ended up homeless for almost 2 months ... she lives in a town with a very low vacancy rate, and was sleeping on friends' couches and even in her car, until she was able to line up accommodation. (In a house which probably should have been condemned -- no heating, vermin all over the place, and holes in the roof.)

Because almost all their property was held in common, her husband was able to keep her from getting at her savings until the court case wrapped up. Luckily she was able to use her paychecks (her ex even phoned her workplace and tried to get her suspended!), but it was pretty dicey for a while. I ended up mailing her groceries, until she had her own place and was back on her feet.

It was like a really bad movie-of-the-week. I'd never have believed that anything like this could have happened to her -- educated, compassionate, from a prosperous and supportive family, ultra-stable, a person who taught me a lot about how to budget and plan ahead. But it did. (She now volunteers for Habitat for Humanity, because the experience of being homeless had such an impact on her.)

And another school friend, on a visit to her relatives, was almost forced into an arranged marriage. She came from a very traditional culture, and her grandparents and elderly aunts told her it was time she was married. There was an immigration scam underway, regarding a man from "the old country" who would be deported from Canada -- to cut a long story short, when she refused to cooperate, her relatives confiscated her purse, with her money and return air ticket, and told her that she would not be allowed to leave their remote farm until she changed her mind. Luckily her relatives had overlooked one credit card, which they didn't know she had. She managed to force open a window one night, and made a run for it. If it hadn't been for that credit card, she wouldn't have been able to pay for a taxi and a replacement ticket, to fly home. (I'm sorry to say that I laughed out loud the first time she told me about all of this -- "Kidnapped Brides from Fraser Lake" -- but it was true!)

[SoCalDem]

117. and women tend to live longer,

so they have a lengthier stretch of hardship ahead of them.. Women tend to take more time off to care for family, so their SS is lower (and they make less to start with)..

Pairing up or partnering up with other oldsters is the way of the future..

One older woman with a one bedroom apartment she can barely afford is no way to live, but 3 older women living a a 3 bedroom house, sharing expenses seems to be a better solution..

[Bernardo de La Paz]

13. Cargo Cult Republicans vote against their own best interests.

[expatriot]

3. do you mean

why do ppl in that range think they can live like billionaires or why do ppl in that range think they are in the upper middle class?

[hfojvt]

92. Well, they ARE in the upper middle class

The quintile breakdowns are
under 17,970 - lower class
under 33,314 - lower middle class
under 53,000 - middle class
under 83,500 - upper middle class
over 83,500 - upper class
so the $53-83,500 range is what I would call upper middle class, they are richer than 60% of their neighbors, so they feel pretty rich. The longer they are in that range, the more wealth they can accumulate. It depends who you are comparing yourself to.

[ozarkvet]

108. "It depends who you are comparing yourself to."

Just read about this.

Oversimplyfying, people who are the richest in their neighborhoods feel good about themselves. People who are much richer, but live in a richer neighborhood, feel bad about themselves.

The key is to have poorer-than-you friends.

Seriously (almost).

[orion9941]

5. Hell...

My partner and I bring home a combined income of a little over $70,000...and you would think that two adults with no children would be able to live comfortably on that...but we can't not in this day and age. Granted we are diverting most of our money to paying off our debts which leaves us with very little.

Even if we weren't paying off all of our debts, all we would need is one major thing to go wrong with the house or loose a car or something big ticket like that and we would be screwed.

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. Some boob on the moranunderground was boasting about being

in the top 1% and that he and his 1% colleagues "owned everything". I would guess that he and his wife probably make 100,000 combined and consider themselves "set". Lambs to the slaughter as I see it.

[dchill]

45. More likely...

he's a laid off factory worker (aka "former billionaire") who lost his mind along with his job. My locality has a lot of those. Yes, they still vote Republican - of course.

[NMMNG]

81. Well then, why doesn't he donate the whole 72K they need for their

fund drive and get it over with. It would make him a hero and save the day. :eyes:

[NYCGirl]

9. If you're in that range in NYC, you're between poor and about average! NT

[OnionPatch]

11. Yes, this is a strange thing

We are in that range with no debt save for home and auto but we realize that it would only take a downturn in our industry to put us in financial straights. Yet I know so many people who make the same and have mountains of credit card debt, etc. and they think they're in the upper crust! This is really a problem because these people think that things like the estate tax, for example, is going to affect them!! I really wish there was some info or charts or something that show exactly how low on the totem pole people in this range are, so they will wake up and realize they are part of we, the people, not these rich goons who are controlling everything. I honestly think we need some pointed effort to show these kind of people that they are NOT in the upper 1 or 2 percent or wherever they think they are! I know they think they're much higher up than they really are.

[renate]

34. what I never understood through the 2004 campaign

was WHY Kerry and the Democrats didn't say "tax cuts for those making more than $800,000 a year" instead of "tax cuts for the top 1%."

So many people think they're in the top 5% or even 1% or 2% when they are so totally NOT. It's nice that they're grateful for their blessings, but like somebody else said here, most of them don't ever see or know a truly wealthy person--ie, that top 1%--so they don't have a realistic sense of perspective.

[Carni]

46. OMG Do I agree with you and see it all around me

I have relatives that probably make 150 thousand a year as a couple(they are somewhere in that range/ I THINK)

They spend money like there is no tomorrow and to hear them they are right up there with the top 1%.

Now my question is this...how the hell do these people saunter around like they are in that top 1% when they have to be in hock up to their eyeballs?

Do these people have zero common sense?

[unrepuke]

12. I am curently working to amass my 2nd million --

I gave up on the first one...

:shrug:

[400Years]

15. ha ha

good one!

[DarkTirade]

14. Personally, if I could earn enough money

to just be able to pay my bills and have enough left over, I'd consider myself rich by now. I've been poor far too long.

[Nye Bevan]

16. They look at the value of their house and think it's real money

They keep taking out new home equity loans to buy basic essentials such as plasma TVs.

They think it's a waste if they have not "tapped into" all of their home equity.

They think the value of their house will keep going up by 20% per year for the rest of their lives.

They think they need huge SUVs with full time 4 wheel drive because they have a couple of kids and sometimes it snows.

They are stupid.

[RJRoss]

23. MathGuy

That is darned funny, and sadly very true.

[yorkiemommie1]

26. Yes... to all of the above.

Whereas we are looking to pay off our mortgage of 75k soon, buy a car w/ cash ( have never bought a car on payments, ) have a decent portfolio, one credit card which we pay off every month, no medical bills and home worth 700k ( LOL ) and we am still scared.

People are living much longer nowadays and i am afraid of outliving my money. The others on my street ( mostly retired and have huge equity in their homes ) live very frugally. We remember when bread was 35cents a loaf as opposed to $3.00 and so we're cautious.

i know i could lose my medical benefits. our premiums increase yearly.
other living costs are rising and i feel like we're just hanging on.

[Yupster]

65. Yorkie

you hit something very true.

I work with people with lots of money, and they are alwaqys scared of outliving their money no matter how much they have.

A few years of high inflation and they're in trouble in retirement.

I don't see the wealthy people thinking they're billionaires. Jusat the opposite, I see wealthy people acting like they can't order soup with their meal.

Maybe a gnerational difference as most wealthy people are older.

[Demobrat]

18. Because every day they see people with less,

much less, and it makes them feel like bigshots in comparison. What they don't see, ever, because they live, work and operate behind high walls and tinted windows, are the people who really run things, the real billionaires. So they think they are rich because they can afford to wear a clean shirt every day.

[Inland]

20. I agree, most never meet a rich person

Often when I listen to Rush Limbaugh, I hear him describe taxation on capital gains and dividends and I think...this guy's rich, he HAS to know that it's all bullshit, and moreover, his listeners couldn't have filed a single Schedule D or they would KNOW it was bullshit. At least I work for rich people, so I got SOME idea of how people really have no idea.

The people who really run things, on the other hand, have no idea what it means to have a visibly finite amount of money. Bush tells us to conserve energy without realizing that most people don't have to be told to conserve gas at $2.80 a gallon.

[MissB]

30. Yep - "most never meet a rich person".

We've been relatively comfy for years. My partner hit a nice salary range about 8 years ago and we've counted our pennies and invested and not over-extended too much. We don't stress about where we're going to get the next mortgage payment, kwim?

But we still have a mortgage. The kids have college funds, but they aren't assured a full four-year ride without loans. Despite a decent cushion, I'm still aware that we're not too far from losing what we've worked for through a combination of a major illness and a job loss. We do still have a mortgage- and as long as that hangs over us, we'll only ever be "comfy".

I've met someone recently that spent six figures at one boutique. In just the first few months of this year. At one store. In a few months. I simply cannot wrap my mind around having so much money. And I'm sure they aren't even billionaires. They're probably (assuming here) multi-millionaires. They don't run the country. They still have more wealth than I can possibly imagine.

I'm not rich. And I never will be.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

64. you make an excellent point

with Bush telling us to conserve energy without realizing most people don't need to be told this given the current cost.

That little piece of hubris had passed under my radar, and i like to think my hubris-radar is finely tuned.

[DemocracyInaction]

19. I think I know what you are getting at

There are too many morons who honestly think that when the Repukes talk about the upper 1% that that means them. There annual income would buy a couple wastepaper baskets in the homes of the 1%. The Fortune 500 in this country spend the equivalent of these people's annual income on a weekend of recreation. They have no idea that they are just regular middle class slobs who are on the rich boy's hit list to reduce salary, benefits, etc. so that the 1% can line their pockets with bigger dividends from their investments.

[yorkiemommie1]

29. yep

so they identify w/ the GOP because they think they're in the same class. if they were ever in the same room they'd be snubbed.

[devilgrrl]

70. That is exactly what I'm getting at.

Thank you for articulating that coherently. :-)

[tk2kewl]

22. they do?

i fit the bill and i feel broke

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

24. I remember the old money vs. new money at the Polo grounds

The new money hired a bartender and a whole minibar setup around their hummers. The showier, the better.

The old money, which NEVER parked anywhere near the new money, quietly parked their Rolls, opened up the back, spread a blanket and put out the silver and crystal.

[dickthegrouch]

27. The whole country thinks its the richest and most powerful

The problem is not just one of individuals.

The US is more than $26,000 in debt for each and every man woman and child in residence the total is shown on the National debt clock
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

I can't count the number of times I've seen the "richest and most powerful" BS.

I lost my job three years ago and can testify to the economic damage that has done to me even though I thought I was untouchable. Part of the problem was that I had taken on debt (house and car) commensurate with my previous pay and therefore could not have taken a job paying less than $26/hr (far less than half my previous pay rate).

Finally, I've found a suitable job close to home with a decent pay scale, but it will take me many years to make back the savings and equity I've had to burn through in the interim.

I almost choked when I heard Greenspan talking two weeks ago about how less consumerism would cause more savings. NO IT WON'T. We might be able to retire some debt but it's going to be many years before I start saving again - the 3% rates on savings cannot make up for the 16-22.99% interest rates on my credit cards.

[hfojvt]

95. to an economist

such as Greenspan, reducing your debt is the equivalent of saving. I had a realtor that told me I could buy a $70K house on $23K income, and I told him he was nuts and bought a $35K house. I got fired from my job a mere 4 months later, and just paid my house off this month, even though my post-firing income was about half and I spent five months on unemployment.
Sometimes I wonder if the debtors are not the smart ones though. Isn't it better to die $100K in debt than to die with $100K in savings?

[B Calm]

28. Many of the people in the wage group you posted are in a

position in the work place that can keep wages low for the average working man and get bonuses for doing it!

[sweetheart]

31. because it's new

and those people are from the lower classes themselves, earning
many times more than their fathers and mothers, revelling on the
inflationary high of a surfing wave.

Once upon a time, like 70's/80's even, the incomes you discuss were
wealthy uppper middle class. But inflation and the twin bubbles of the
dotcom bullshit and the property boom, have created a genre of new
wealth that has no conception of real-value of older times. And those
middle class neo-rich, spend their income, have no kids, and believe
that life is an episode of sex in the city.

Then they get old, and discover that they were riding on a wave that
is designed to leave them high and dry on the longer term beach of life.
And all the while, the "owners" of our ownership society are laughing
all the way to the bank. For all the fuss about the struggle between
labour and kapital, we see nothing but kapital.

[Lisa]

32. someone here at DU posted an interesting research study ...

... a few years ago. I've been trying to track it down, because it seemed reputable and a good source, but it was in a part of the archives that vanished during the server troubles a while back.

From what I can remember -- many people, even those in the lower income brackets, would vastly underestimate the gap in the distribution of wealth. They didn't realize how few people control most of the money. And they would also tend to rank themselves as being richer (relative to the top earners) than they actually were.

I imagine part of this may have been optimism, or even contentment with their jobs/health/family life -- my parents would always say, "we're well off" when I asked them how much money Dad made. But they were from the Depression generation, which still thought it was bad manners to talk about money. And they're thrifty still -- they both cut each other's hair now, instead of going to the barber/stylist! They remember being grindingly poor. And they just can't imagine people paying more for a car than they did for their first home.

Re: inflation, I have to keep reminding myself that a million dollars these days really isn't as much money as it was in the 1970s ... shades of Dr. Evil in the Austin Powers movies (after being frozen for decades, he thought that was a huge sum, but people in this time just laughed at him).

[HeeBGBz]

35. If I had that much, I WOULD be a billionaire

In dog years, or something. Let me get my conversion table...

[BeTheChange]

36. Why do people who make between 40-150K think they are POOR?

I see that side alot too.

Just wondering...

[etherealtruth]

38. I see that side a lot too ...

I suppose if you have three kids in college at the same time one could conceivably be "strapped" for cash.

[devilgrrl]

40. I guess you'd have to ask people who live in NYC, San Fran, LA, Boston....

Chicago? Specifically folks who have children - I'm sure they'll have satisfactory answers.

[BeTheChange]

43. I've lived in 3 of those cities..

and I still dont have the answers... anyone want to share?

[MissB]

89. There will never be a good enough answer

for those who wish to argue about class.

I've read (and participated in) discussions here about salary ranges and how comfortably one can live on an above-the-median salary given a range of lifestyle choices.

The bottom line for me is that while making an above-the-median salary certainly makes one comfy, it does not insulate one from becoming quite poor. Most of us are one financial disaster (through job loss or major illness) away from financial ruin. Some members are simply closer to that point than others. There may be one or two posters here that will be well insulated against that, but they'd be the exception.

Arguing over what level of income gets one out of the "poor" category is an exercise in futility. Yeah, some people don't appreciate what they have compared to the less fortunate (and often harder working) members of our society, but why waste time arguing about comfy versus poor?

[triguy46]

49. I think that might be the more problematic side of the coin...

and what drives the credit card debt, frantic consumerism, etc.

[Captain Hilts]

52. You live in DC on 40K you ARE poor by many standards. nt

[BeTheChange]

53. What about the minimum wage worker who works FT and makes less then 14k/yr

What are they?

[ultraist]

56. 14k in DC? Abject poverty n/t

[BeTheChange]

58. The median HOUSEHOLD income in DC is 47k

The OP refers to a person who makes 40-150k


If the median household income in DC is 47k then I guess someone needs to define what they consider median to mean.

[ozarkvet]

109. Brother makes $150K and IS poor

He's a pretty newly minted doctor --- and has upwards of a million bucks owed in student loans.

Lives in a cruddy apartment in Houston next to the medical center, and pays 1/3 in tax, 1/2 to student loans, and lives on the rest --- while working 80 hours a week.

Eventual prospects are good, though!

[MildyRules]

110. One million in student loans????

That's $100K a year for 10 years. How the HELL did he do that???

[ozarkvet]

121. Pretty easy, actually

By going to a Ivy schools for undergrad, grad, medical, and some medical specialty deal.

It was like $120K a year.


Personally, I am going to UTEP, that Harvard on the Rio, free of charge thanks to Texas Veterans benefits and a couple other I cobbled together. (AR native, but smartly moved to Texas as my "home state" before joining the Army. Many things to say about Texas that are bad, but they treat their soldiers very fairly.)

[KerryOn]

37. Well I'm in the very bottom of that range...

... very bottom, and I'm ceratainly not a Billionaire.

My wife and I do not have any kids, just the two of us and we barley ge by. We do not have a large amount of credit card debt. We have a very small 1,100 sq ft house that will be paid off in December, and we have one car payment.

We do not have a big screen TV, cell phones or any other fansy electronic equipment. We just got our fisrt C player a year ago. We have one 27" TV, one sterio, one VCR, one tape deck, one very old computer (on dial up) and one CD player.

Thats It! We are still poor.

[stepnw1f]

39. False Egos (nt)

[JanMichael]

41. The great American LIE, that's why.

It fosters greed, racism, anti-Labor attitudes, sexism and hatred.

That or they're just plain idiots.

Wait, that's it, $40k a year creditcard "millionaires" are just fucking stupid.

[NewJeffCT]

42. I thought I read before...

that like 20% of Americans think they are in the top 1% of earners...

[ultraist]

44. 40k-150k is quite a big range

40k is below the median and 150k is upper middle class. Only 10% of Americans earn over 200k.

The average net worth of white Americans is only 80k, a far cry from being a multimillionare.

[devilgrrl]

60. I was insinuating that many people in this income range vote against...

their best interests. That income range is decent depending on where one lives. I'm at the lower end of that scale, live in LA and rent. I'm not poor but there is no way in hell that I will ever be able to afford a house here either. Other than that, I really have nothing to complain about.

What I'm saying is that way too many people who make that kind of money think voting GOP is doing them well - when in reality they are getting rooked. :shrug:

[ultraist]

61. I see. I don't disagree with your point.

But, some of those people are not voting based on their personal financials but based on wedge issues like abortion and gay rights.

[devilgrrl]

63. and don't forget blaming poor people for all the nations problems.

All lot of the people I speak of are barely afloat and care for matters I that don't affect them personally. It's f&%#ing vexing. :mad:

[Warren DeMontague]

77. I think the truly weird thing is all the people who make UNDER 40K

and vote for the GOP.

[tenshi816]

113. You are so absolutely correct.

I always think of my favourite cousin in the States who makes about that much each year, and thinks the son shines out of Junior's backside.

[Ignis]

47. What's the Matter with Kansas?

I highly recommend the above book. It explores this paradigm shift among lower-middle class voters towards Republican platform items that work directly against their own interests.

[devilgrrl]

71. That is a very good - a must read.

:-)

[Ignis]

98. So glad you agree.

I've given 5 copies of this book as gifts to friends/relatives who aren't Pukes but who are somewhat influenced by Faux propaganda and the like. Each of these persons loved the book and immediately wanted to 'talk shop' with me about what we can do to take power back for the people.

That's pretty heartening, let me tell you! :)

[neebob]

50. What the heck are you talking about?

I just barely get by on $60K. If I made $150K, I'd feel comfortable but still worried about providing for my retirement, considering I'm 45 already.

[ObaMania]

59. I'm with you.

My wife and I make near the high end of that range and we are hardly rich. We are pretty much one paycheck away from the streets. We don't live extravagantly, we just have the misfortune of living in Northern Virginia, one of the more expensive places in the US to live.

I guess we could take Bill O'Lielly's advice and move like he said on his show once, but pay is commensurate with the area where you live so we'd be in the same boat.

It's a crime that the median household income in the US is 38K. First, I have no idea where that came from, and second, that is poverty level by any standards, IMO.

Sorry for the rant, but I guess that's the socialist in me.

[neebob]

66. In fairness

I'd be much better off if I hadn't hooked up with this guy who turned out to be a psychopath. He spent two years trying to ruin me, nearly succeeded, and I'm still paying for it five years later, to the tune of $1,000 a month. (Among the lessons learned: The less money you have, the more you have to pay.)

I'm lucky to have a career that enables me to pay for my mistake, remain single, and still have some vague hope of seeing that my 16-year-old son gets a decent education, assuming his father feels similarly obligated. Frankly, though, I'm worried about that too.

I really don't know how any two people get by on less than $40K, but there are certainly a lot of people doing it. I know a lot of couples who make what you and your wife do and more, who are in the same boat. I don't consider them rich, and I'm pretty sure they don't either.

[devilgrrl]

69. I worry too.

What I am suggesting is that a lot of morons (morans) who make 60k think Republican economic policies benefit them and they don't.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. A lot of dirt-poor people think that George Bush is "lookin' out fur 'em"

mostly because he's holding the line with regards to the gays up the street being able to get married.

Nevermind the fact that 45 Million Americans don't have health insurance-- those aren't the kind of "values" that resonate like, say, discriminating against gays, imposing censorship, waging a jingoistic war based on shoddy lies, and criminalizing abortion/birth control do with these folks.

Or so we're told. Moral of the story? There's a lot of dumb fucking people in this country.

[neebob]

79. OIC nt

[GOPS Worst Fear]

51. I Don't Know But I agree with you..

I work as a Certified Nurses aide in a local hospital here in Phoenix. I make $11.00+ an hour and live paycheck to paycheck. The majority of the nurses here all voted for Bush and are totally against any kind of social services from the govenment.(Except of course..Corporate Welfare)They think anyone who is younger and on disablility is a lazy bum.IMHO they simply haven't got a clue. One nurse who is a guilty on all these charges, has a husband who also makes 80 grand a year. Together they pull in about $150,000.To let them tell it they spend money like it's water.Yet I can see how easily it could be if a depression came along, that they would be in the same boat as I. They vote Republican but they can't see that they aren't that much father from us in the tree of economics.

[jlseagull]

54. Top end of that range, but I still think I'm poor eom

[Laelth]

55. Some statistics are in order.

2003 Census Bureau Figures

112,000,000 households in the US

Median: $43,318 median household income. half of us do better than that. half of us do worse.

Bottom 20%: $17,984 20% of households (22,400,000 households) make less than that.

Top 20%: $86,867 20% of households (22,400,000 households) make more than that.

Top 5%: $154,120 5% of households (5,600,000 households) make more than that.

Top 1%: $285,000 1% of households (1,120,000 households) make more than that. (This is a 2002 figure. I couldn't find 2003.)


I've always had a reaction to American income distribution that's quite different from the reactions I see expressed in this thread. I am generally revolted when people who make $100-$150K/year claim to be "middle-class." And I hear that a lot. Those people are blind to the poverty in America if they think they're in the "middle-class." They are, statistically, quite wealthy--in the top 10% of all American households.

Now, does that mean they shold vote for Repukes? No. Repuke policies serve, generally, only the top 1/2 of 1% of Americans. If that's the point of this thread, that these people are voting against their own best interests, then I agree completely. But are people who make $100-$150K/year struggling? Heck no. They're quite wealthy, as Americans go. To argue otherwise is to ignore American poverty.

-Laelth

[the_spectator]

111. Ditto. (Can we say that around here?)

While it might be annoying to hear people earning 50K claim to be "rich," I find it even MORE annoying to hear people earning 100K claiming poverty.

... what's that? You live in Manhattan / San Fransisco, etc. and feel "poor" on 100K a year? MOVE! Not only is real estate less expensive elsewhere, but you don't have to drink "Ketel One" or dress in Prada to feel like a law-abiding citizen!

[Fescue4u]

57. $40k is damn near poverty line in many areas

But regardless, why do crazy people EVER have crazy thoughts?

If they didnt think crazy, they wouldnt be crazy.

[devilgrrl]

62. You must be referring to those "Reagan Democrats"

See what I'm getting at?

[Fescue4u]

67. Well Not really

Im not sure if you agree with me or not.

But I do think that $40k with a family in a high cost area is no picnic

[devilgrrl]

68. I never suggested that it was...

also, I wasn't clear in my original post of whom I was referring to - singles or couples with no kids. My mistake. Even so, a family of four can live decently in Utica, NY for 40k. Then again, I could be wrong there too. :shrug:

Too many people think they're on Easy Street and they aren't.

[MazeRat7]

72. I've never met anybody that thinks that.

Actually most folks I know in that income bracket consider themselves middle-class.

The ones I know that make over 200k/year consider themselves upper-middle-class.

The ones I know with many millions in liquid cash consider themselves rich.

The only person I personally "know" that considers himself a billionaire is Michael Dell. And well.. he is a billionaie... go figure.

MZr7

[VolcanoJen]

73. Tell me about it.

Working in the public sector, specifically as a bartender, in the kind of place where the semi-financially secure like to flaunt and market themselves, I know what you're speaking to.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. I think the question is, why do people think STUFF will make them happy?

And who cares, anyway? I don't give a shit if people are rich, or if they think they're rich, or if they think thinking they're rich makes them cool. Fuck 'em, I don't have time for their silly delusions. 200 years from now they will be as dead as everyone else alive now. If they waste their precious, brief time on Earth thinking money is the be-all and end-all, that's their problem.

As for thinking "stuff" will make people happy, it's probably one of the top forms of dementia in the USA. I don't have a problem with stuff, but I'm really only interested in it from the perspective of utilitarianism- mostly, can I use it, have fun with it, make my life better with it. Seems like most people in this country want more shit just so they can show off to their neighbors.. Talk about a hollow pursuit!

I don't really care if people make $20K, $40K, $150K or ARE Billionaires. I've never known any Billionaires, as far as I'm aware, but I've known some very rich people, and believe you me, the pertinent question which I always asked with regards to them was, "are they happy"? Sure, some rich people are happy, but I've known some majorly fucking miserable ones, too. And I had years where I was making barely above minimum wage, and while it was not an "easy" lifestyle, I had a pretty good time. (This is not to say that the minimum wage shouldn't be a liveable wage- it should.) Anyone who has worked in retail knows that the most dissatisfied, uptight, pissy, angry people are often the customers with lots of money. Kind of like they can't figure out why, if they've "made it", everything isn't different and they don't feel better inside.

Here's a little anecdote I like to relate. When I was much younger, I had a summer job working at a mini-mart in a relatively upscale part of Chicago, when they were a relatively new phenomenon- before they were even really known as mini-marts. I would get there at 8 AM, and the first people to come in would be Mexican gardeners on their way to work, and they would buy sandwiches and a 6 pack of budweiser. And they were always the happiest fuckin' guys I would see all day. Laughing, mellow, saying hola, etc.

Then, when 5 PM would roll around, and these dudes in Jaguars and Beemers would come in from the CBOT or swanky Michigan Ave. offices. And boy, were they ever in a shitty mood. All the time. Pissed off. Yelling at me because one of the pencils in the can didn't have an eraser, that kind of thing... Just miserable fucking people.

It was an illuminating experience.

[tenshi816]

114. I think I love you. n/t

[Lorien]

76. This again? I'm in that bracket, and I sure as hell don't. n/t

[devilgrrl]

82. Of course Lorien. What's a thread without a condescending...

response from you.

[Lorien]

86. That was really unnecessary devilgrrl

I simply don't like it when large groups of people are painted with the same brush. I don't feel that it's a "condescending" attitude-quite the contrary. But I do wonder why you so strongly feel that those in this income bracket are delusional enough to believe that they (we) are Bill Gates.Why all the hostility and resentment towards the middle class?

For the record; I run my own business which has struggled-like most American small businesses-for the past five years. I have 20K in medical debt from a lifesaving surgery that my insurance refused to cover. 40k is barely enough to keep me out of bankruptcy, given that it takes a fair amount to run any business in the first place.Therefore, I resent the implication that I think I'm a billionaire because I fall into a certain income bracket. I'm exhausted from simply trying to maintain my occupation; I'm not out there buying champagne flutes on credit.

I also live in as diverse a neighbor as you'll find anywhere in America; homes on my street run from 50k-2 million +. During the past election the bulk of the * signs were in front of the poorest shacks and the richest mansions; the vast majority middle class bungalows had Kerry signs in the yard.

[devilgrrl]

87. I wouldn't call it resentment but it is frustrating that the dwindling...

middle class seem to be the ones doing themselves in by voting for Republicans. And how am I painting everyone in that group with a broad brush stroke? If you don't know someone in that range that thinks that they're made in the shade and the GOP is their best friend I'll eat my hat.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. I think more people making under 40K a year vote for the GOP for dumb-ass

reasons than people in the bracket you mention.

Sure, I live in a liberal part of the country, but all the people I know in the 40K-140K income range are Democrats. When I see Bush stickers, they are as often as not on rusty, beat up pickup trucks that need body work, driven by Cletus and Jed.

[devilgrrl]

90. Yes, I agree...

those people are even more annoying!

[UncleSepp]

99. Maybe it's because so many vocal Democrats seem to hate them

Good God, you can't be a visible Democrat, make fun of someone, belittle them, and put them down, and then wonder why it is that the very people you berate don't want to vote Democrat.

[Warren DeMontague]

101. So I'm not allowed to make observations?

These people aren't putting Bush stickers on their trucks because of ME.

If we're to believe what we're constantly told, it's because of our support of gay rights, or the fact that we think women shouldn't be lectured when they get a birth control prescription filled, or because of our opposition to the war... or because we want to take "God" out of public schools...

Oh, now it's because we make fun of them.

Wow. That's a big list.

I guess we shouldn't call anyone with a Bush sticker on their vehicle an "idiot". Well, I'm sorry, but from where I'm sitting, that is the DEFINITION of an idiot.

[UncleSepp]

116. You're allowed to say whatever you want, and so is everyone else

You say what you think, I say what I think. That's how free speech works. Am I somehow oppressing you by stating my opinion?

I certainly hope you're not putting that bunkum about "our support of gay rights, bla bla on me. Are you assuming I agree with any of that?

[Warren DeMontague]

118. Help, help, I'm being oppressed!

No, you're not oppressing me. :) I just think it's funny that in a thread that was pretty clearly intended, in some form or another, to be sort of a swipe at a certain (rather broad, IMHO) income demographic, you get seemingly miffed because I point out the fact (and actually, it's an observed fact, it's not what I think) that around here, at least, the Bush supporters tend to be overwhelmingly poor rednecks.... (I don't know how else to phrase it.. "lower-income upper torso sunburned individuals", perhaps?)

It's just weird that class warfare (or even these weird generalizations that don't seem to have any basis in reality-- "They think they're rich, so they vote Republican") is seemingly okay if one is talking about those obnoxious 'high-wage' earners over 40K who 'think they're rich'.. but God Forbid you should point out the wide, poor, heartland swath of Bush's "base" who are obviously unclear on the concept of how they are being economically screwed by the GOP, or don't care- just so long as they can get their self-righteous Xtian jollies via The GOP's various wars on Muslims, Gays, Atheists, Porn, Reproductive Rights, etc. etc.

[Lorien]

91. Your own headline makes a simple statement; it doesn't ask why

"some"or "any" think this way-therefore anyone who falls into that category can't help but feel as if it's a statement that includes them (see the edit to my previous post that explains why I take exception to this notion). I suspect that there is indeed someone out there delusional enough to believe that they've "got it made" under * who falls into that income bracket, but from my experience it has been those making over $150k a year, or under 30k, that make up the bulk of BushCo's base. Also, having worked long hours for months on both Gore and Kerry's campaigns and having contacted thousands of voters in the process, I feel that the middle class is still the democratic party's strongest base-which is perhaps why the repugs are so dead set on destroying us.

I know for a fact that the elections were stolen the first time around (because I saw acts of thievery personally), and I feel certain that it was stolen in the same manner last year. I honestly don't consider the current mess that we are in to be the fault of the middle class.

[Hello_Kitty]

78. Duh....They're going to win the Powerball!

:eyes:

Seriously though, a combination of watching too many Bling Bling teevee shows about celebrities and listening to Rush warps their minds. You wouldn't believe how many guys in my technical job who make 60 to 80K a year think that their ship is going to come in and they'll be partying on the yacht with Puff Daddy and Playboy bunnies. Usually there is no specific plan about how they are going to accomplish that so that leads to talk about the latest Powerball prize, as though they are going to be the next winner, and bemoan how much their winnings will be taxed. :crazy: I've been hearing this from the same people for nearly the past decade. They're still in the same job, and trapped in houses and vehicles they can barely afford.

[triguy46]

96. No way, I'm winning tomorrow!!!

Its my way of supporting Kansas Higher Education.

[HughBeaumont]

80. I think it's just REPUBLICANS who make that much think that way.

And they BELIEVE the stupid "Horatio Alger" crap sold to them by reich-wing talking pundits and say "oh, I'm right on the fence of being like that guy in the huge mansion over there, so I'd better vote fer Dubya because Kerry wants to TAX people like ME to death." News flash, Biff . . . YOU AREN'T THAT GUY!!! Sport Utility Homes keeping you in hock <> WEALTH! Your monstrosity vehicles <> WEALTH!!

Us progressives know better. In fact, I started a thread on this a while ago, about how people like me and my wife who are making that range of income (we're in the middle) but are keeping WAY less than ever because things cost so damned much nowadays (and we don't exactly live high on the hog . . . far from it, to be honest), and are pretty much one financial disaster away from losing everything. Ten years ago, you would have been able to live comfortably on a salary like that.

I don't know why ANYone believes that if they make in that range that they're rich . . . maybe if you lived in Arkansas or something like that, where the COL is lower. Certainly not in any large to mid-market city would that be considered wealthy by any stretch. It was mentioned above that the median HH income in DC was 47k. Where are these people living? Boxes?

[ProfessorGAC]

83. I Don't

So, i can't answer your question except to speculate. When one hits a certain level of income, the life becomes more comfortable or even luxurious. The NEEDS of life become less relevant, because we stop worrying about the next meal, or whether the home will be warm in the winter, or if i can fill the gas tank.

So, some folks become very insular and innured to the suffering of those who CAN'T makes ends meet and don't have all NEEDS met, because it becomes about what people WANT, not what they NEED.

Some of us are in that financial position, but try hard not to forget that there are many others who haven't had their basic needs met and maybe never will. So, we pay our taxes, without complaint. We would rather have gov't raise taxes than cut benefits and programs. We donate to charities. Others, not so much. Selfishness is powerful motivator.
The Professor

[bklyncowgirl]

85. Hope--the new opiate of the masses

Americans are optomists at heart and many people believe that some day thay too will strike it rich. In voting for Republican policies they are voting their hopes and dreams--not the depressing reality of their every day lives.

Not that most have any realistic chance of becoming rich or have the intelligence, creativity and drive (not to mention ruthlessness) that might enable them to become the next Bill Gates. They simply believe that it is going to happen.

They see their current position (if they view where they are realistically at all) as a temporary stage in their lives. Putting themselves in hock up to their ears makes sense because--after all--some day they will be able to pay it all off and in the meantime keeping up the expected appearances are part of what it takes to become part of the upper class.

Sad, really.

[Atlas Mugged]

93. My SO....

was in the $250K range before he retired, now he's in the $125K range since he's still an active investment broker. Yes, he's a millionaire, but you'd never, ever know it. He dresses like a slob and buys generic all the time. He's completely petrified of the current state of affairs and has already moved money into foreign banks. Really, don't get him started on this topic over dinner. You'll throw up in sweating terror before desert. And he knows what he's talking about.

I'm in the slightly under $50k range, before I was in an accident, and I spend/spent within my means. I collect "stuff" that's actually worth collecting. At least to me - oriental carpets and fabrics, ethnic stuff, minerals, art, Chinese antiques - so the house looks like a Silk Road bordello. Everyhing is covered in animal hair, too, so it's hardly Architectural Digest material.

And, yes, we're both heavy contributors to charities we hold dear. AIDS in particular for my SO since he lost his partner of 20 years to the disease (he's not infected, amazingly). I'm big on animals and the environment. We both support the ACLU. He wouldn't tell me how much he donated to Kerry because he's too embarassed!

Oh, and he's a Republican. Or was. I converted the filthy slime. I checked my KarmaMeter and that one deed broke it.

So, we're not all like that.

[porphyrian]

94. Why do people who make over $200k/year think they're middle class? -n/t

[UncleSepp]

97. Because the spread is so very, very wide

Here's a decent quote from an article on CEO pay, focusing on the defense sector:

The authors of "Executive Excess" note, too, the great disparity between the average defense CEO's pay – $11.6 million last year – and that of a military general with 20 years' experience, who makes $168,905. The average private, meanwhile, earns $24,278, including extra combat pay.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/news/economy/ceo_pay/

Let's make these numbers easy. We'll give the private a little raise to $25K, and give the CEO a little cut to $10M. In number of times of the pay of the private, then...

the private makes 1 times his own pay
the general makes around 7 times the pay of the private
the person making $200K makes 8 times the pay of the private

the defense ceo makes 400 times what the private makes, and 50 times what the guy making $200K makes.

The private, the general, and the person making 200K a year are all closer to each other than they are to the ceo.

Here's another example, from 2000:

If you make over $100,000, you are in the top 4 percent. Now $100,000 is a tidy sum indeed, but it's not super rich -- as in Mellon, Morgan, or Murdock. The difference between Michael Eisner, Disney CEO who pocketed $565 million in 1996, and the individuals who average $9,250 is not 13 to 1 -- the reported spread between highest and lowest quintiles -- but over 61,000 to 1.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Superrich.html

IMO, the distinction between classes is not about what you make, it's abotu how you make it. Working class means you make your money off of selling your labor, whether it be physical, intellectual, or something else. You get a paycheck, and that's your income. Middle class means you make your money off of a mixture of labor and investments, but the majority of your income still comes from your work. Upper class means you may still draw a paycheck, but the majority of your income comes from investments. There is a class above that which does not have to work at all, but exists entirely off of unearned income. The class distinction has been perverted, in my opinion, to be partly about the amount of money one makes and mostly about a sense of meaningless aesthetics. This serves very well to divide the true working class against itself, and prevent it from ever using the power it has as the true source of wealth in the industrial and post industrial economy.

[Fescue4u]

100. THats about the best definition of classes that Ive seen

most folks (myself included usually), get hung up on actual numbers, which are complicated by cost of living, family size etc.

What really seperates lower class (i really dont like that term), middle class, upper class and weathy is not actual numbers per se, but where they derrive their livelihood.

[MildyRules]

102. Becasue most of them are

up until they make significantly more than that...

[porphyrian]

119. Nonsense. People who make $100k and up...

...only represent something like 4% of all of us. That's like saying Mensa members represent average intelligence.

[ComerPerro]

103. They live in $800,000 houses, bought on "interest only" loans

and are probably in debt to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars, not including their house payments.

They live large. They drive a Hummer H2, they have 3 plasma TVs, and a swimming pool.

And, as others have said, they see "poor people" around town, so they know that, even if they are a paycheck away from bankruptcy, they are at least better than those people they see at WalMart.

[MildyRules]

104. You do know that

interest only loans are NOT necessarily a BAD thing, right?

[ComerPerro]

106. They are if you think its just a way for a lower payment

[MildyRules]

107. They can be very useful for

a savvy home-buyer.

[ozarkvet]

105. Because real billionaires

That drive old crappy cars, make them feel like billionaires so as to trick them into buying new cool cars that depreciate by 1/2 when they drive off the lot.

[Thirtieschild]

120. Voting R raises puts you in a higher social class

and if you're in a higher social class, why next thing you know you might be a millionaire. And who knows after that. What puzzles me is why, if you already have a billion dollars, why do you need a couple more billion? Or even a couple more million. What on earth do they do with all of it?