Looters

[undergroundpanther]

The fact the national guard is keeping people from FOOD shows we are NOT living in a democracy,the Rich people's THINGS must be protected from starving people!!Remember the french revolution,the rich make sure the lower class suffers and is desperate,the middle class is scared of poor people,the soldiers are bribed obedient and loyal,. That is how they say rich and on our backs.
Fuck all the corporate pigs. Fucking assholes!
Disaster shows us the true use of our military is to PROTECT PROPERTY of corporations above human life, to keep the rich secure people DIE.


I say Eat the rich people if they will not let you get food.
Roast them on a spit and share the bounty.They have been fed on the finest organic foods.*sarcasm*

Damn I am pissed. Let the people EAT..What happened soldier to defending life? Life comes before property IF you are not a sociopath scum bag.
Don't obey wealthy scumbags posing as"leaders".Sheesh.

[China_cat]

1. It's been less than 24 hours

Hungry? yes. Starving? Not even close.

Looting happens during natural disasters (and other types, as well) but I think if you could see the people doing it, you'd find very few who are in such dire straits.

We've been through it here in Charleston. Saw the same thing from the same types of people and it WASN'T the 'poor', the 'homeless' and the 'starving' who were doing it.

[phusion]

2. OK, so you're living in housing projects...

You have very little food at your house. You receive your welfare checks on the 1st of the month and it is now the 29th. You are running low on groceries...

You don't have any idea how long this major disaster is going to last and you don't even know if state and local welfare services will be up and running by the 1st.

You can't tell me you would rather have your children go without eating today and possibly for the next week because you chose not to take food from some large grocery store chain down the street?

Really?

edit: I say housing projects because the WSDU anchor mentioned this store was adjacent to some projects.

[lebkuchen]

6. Maybe they need baby formula and bottled water

Who knows?

Frankly, if they want to steal a bag of Jiffy Pop, who cares?

[China_cat]

8. And if the hurricane hadn't hit

they'd be looting the store anyway because their checks won't come in for 2 more days? Please.

If this was 2 weeks from now...hell, a week from now...I'd agree with you. It's less than 24 hours. Nobody's starving yet.

[phusion]

14. I'm just saying...

Rather than facing an uncertain future with possibly no food for weeks, many people would take advantage and loot some food if the opportunity presented itself.

Now if you knew your check was coming on the first that'd be a different story, wouldn't it?

[Mairead]

23. Let me speak from personal experience: I grew up on the dole

And the money didn't run out a day or two days before, it ran out a week before and was on life support for a week before that.

Believe me, poverty is not about having to stretch things with more macaroni or potatoes, it's about deciding whether you can afford a piece of bread and bowl of soup today or had better wait til tomorrow because there's still a week to get through and only $2 to do it with.

[undergroundpanther]

39. Yep that's how it is

I remember I was getting over the flu I had no money and I had the shits really bad.I ran out of TP.

I went to one of my freinds who worked at the local Mc. Donalds.
She took a humongous roll of TP out of the storage room and gave it to me. I almost cried but I didn't because if I did I was gonna shit myself..So I hugged her went to the bathroom and went home.
When I got better,because I didn't eat, I had a little extra cash, So I saved it and took her out to dinner at a dennys..

[Mairead]

49. Bloody hell. I've never had that exact experience (thank heaven!)

but I definitely know what you're talking about all the same.

[tjdee]

46. EXACTLY.

I've dealt with that too.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. "I'm not that hungry today, I can skip lunch/dinner." Then you feel like you hit the friggin lottery when you have that $2 left on your next payday--it's like wooooo, $2 extra dollars! Wherever will I spend it, LOL!

[lebkuchen]

4. I've heard a similar argument from those who resent food stamps

and the people who buy chocolate bars with them.

[undergroundpanther]

3. Poverty desperation deprivation

along with a disaster like Katrina it creates the desire to loot..When you have lost it all and never HAD anything to begin with while the TV,your friends,the culture all tells you and conditions you to think you must have___ to be someone special in this wealth based pecking order,you might be tempted to steal. A poor person or working poor person would never afford a luxury item anyway, not on two minimum wage jobs and rent and prices kept at just so levels that the poor NEVER can afford a taste of what the rich take for granted. In a culture that HATES sharing and hates equality and is as racist .classist and hierarchical like ours I'm surprised more people don't steal stuff to ease their own suffering and feelings of inferiority ..Inequality and desperation,creates theft.Add in trauma and disaster and it is going to happen. Systematically oppressed and deprived people will break " rich man rules" when the dominator's soldiers are not there to stomp them into fearful obedience.. or "order".

[BikeWriter]

9. So, they're supposed to steal what they want? Are they supposed...

to kill to get it? Get real!

[Orsino]

40. Most of us live...

...two weeks from cannibalism. Looting for food is trivial in comparison.

I'd agree that it's a little soon for that, but if the Nat'l Guard isn't in there feeding everyone very soon, rest assured that the people will "find" food themselves.

[BikeWriter]

5. This is not the French Revolution.

[lebkuchen]

7. It's not the Golden Age, either.

[BikeWriter]

10. They're stealing because they can. Don't try to glorify it.

[lebkuchen]

11. I'm sure it has nothing to do with need.

You wouldn't steal. Why not? Because you're more moral than they are?

[BikeWriter]

15. The storm came in y-e-s-t-e-r-d-a-y!

There are relief organizations passing out food. Food cans are floating in the streets. If they break into a place it is to steal!

[undergroundpanther]

25. And A few hot plasma TV's

Sold at a pawn shop ,could make for a couple months of prepaid existance..like food and rent an security deposit while you move out and look for work in a new place swarming with other refugees also looking for work while out of town.And in this shitty republican economy getting work is not so easy now..
Didya ever consider THAT might be a reason for stealing plasma TV's?

[mondo joe]

27. Stealing for food to eat is one thing, but for a security deposit is

quite another.

If that's okay now why wouldn't it be okay to steal for a security deposit or rent ANY time?

[undergroundpanther]

61. Not anytime

But after a disaster like Katrina I think the rich mans rules can stand to be relaxed a bit.I mean what would you do in THIER situation.Look a bit AHEAD..What can they DO?? We got a crisis now and in the near future for a good while it will be a problem..all those people that are freaking out now, will be looking for a place to rent, looking for a place to work and where have the workplaces gone,they've been smashed,Condemned...There will be very still competition for any job now....Also rents around the area for lower incomes will go up because of demand,with a million homeless and alot of wrecked cars what can you do? There will be lots of poor homless trying to get out of NO and looking for work..The nearby jobs won't come easy unless you can getfarther OUT of the area ,far enough(costs money)to where there are jobs left or unless you are able to do construction/salvage and usually outside contractors are hired for this work not locals...What's a 20 year old temp to do when all the offices are gone?
How will shetend her traumatized kids, find shelter and find work with no work clothes,no money or shelter to go to? Can she show up at a job interview in Texas in disaster chic? in tattered scummy clothes with her kidsand no resume? No! She has to prepare herself to present herself to propective picky conservitive self centered employers who like to pretend it's all the poor peoples fault they can't get out of poverty..

[mondo joe]

67. Laws against theft are not "the rich man's rules".

And the circumstances for many people after Katrina will not be that different than for many poor people any other day of the year. Many will spend years in crisis.

Does that give them a pass to steal?

[undergroundpanther]

83. If they cannot get

The rich to sharte,and cannot get hired..what do you expect them to do?

Lay down and die and not complain?

[mondo joe]

90. Why do you think it's the very poor vs the very rich?

Do you think low income people like to have their property stolen?

How about lower middle class people, do they enjoy it?

[undergroundpanther]

106. No

But hoarding does not help anyone.

I think if you try a different tack,Take care about others and quit defending your territory,you might find things become different,around you.

Sure people don't like being ripped off.Nobody LIKES it.
I don't.

But I don't cry over losing things .I cray over losing loved ones.Traumas,abuse others suffering and my own suffering.

When you are going through the kind of trauma where you have no control over what happens you have two options on how you deal with it. You can follow instincts and cling tighter to your stuff fortify defenses etc.. Or you can let go,give up on controlling the impossible,stop wasting effort patrolling and policing, and reevaluate your worldview to prioritize what matters most. To me Loved ones people,animals living beings they matter most.... Property can be replaced, bought,fixed..a loved one,a neighbor,an elderly Friend cannot..

So I made a decision. If a disaster strikes I will not hole up with a gun and shoot trespassers.I will help out.Even if I am scared shit-less and could get killed I will give.Because what is my life worth really if it is not shared?What is property for if it helps no one? What is control worth in a world where we control nothing?

I have been through traumas before..I have been torttured..I got PSTD. And I cannot run away if something happens and I could have helped someone. My heart will not tolerate such self deceptions and selfish games out of me.Someday I will die,and when I do I do not want it to be in vain or from me cowing in fear defending a bunch of junk that I think is mine,that could be used to help someone NOT face what I faced...

[BikeWriter]

29. No, I've been in deep shit before, but I always managed to work...

at something. Are you going to excuse them when they kill?

[Mairead]

38. How lovely for you, that you've always been acceptable to the ruling class

That's not everyone's experience, you know. And as you grow older, it will cease being yours, too.

[BikeWriter]

45. Answer the question. Are you going to excuse them when they kill?

[Mairead]

54. First you have to demonstrate that they will kill.

Anyone can make up any damnfool idea out of their head, but that's all it is unless motivated, a damnfool idea. So can you motivate it?

[BikeWriter]

60. They will have to kill to steal from me.

[Mairead]

64. So you're making it up. I thought so. (nt)

[BikeWriter]

I worked for everything I own. I have given thousands to deserving...

people this year, and loaned hundreds to others. Anyone caught stealing from me is in deep shit!

[undergroundpanther]

82. Than GIVE again

Give don't KILL.

If you have given so much and people are desperate..Why hoard NOW? Is it all about CONTROL??

Controlling what KIND of person GETS what you give?

That is social darwinism.

[BikeWriter]

95. You condone stealing. Fuck that. Someone steals from me...

I will kill him for stealing what I might otherwise have given him had he shown me respect.

[philosophie_en_rose]

158. Yikes.

Your ego is worth someone's life?

I'm not defending theft, but you would end someone's life over something like that?

[BikeWriter]

164. They have ethical choices to make...

My ego has nothing to do with this. I would prefer they not arrogantly steal from me.

[mondo joe]

71. So being poor is an acceptable reason to steal a TV but not to kill

someone to get their TV? Is that the breakdown?

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

81. Didn't you say we're animals? Isn't that what animals do?

Fight or kill to protect their territory?

[undergroundpanther]

97. Well to argue

Against stealing you acted in disgust at all the thieving animals.

I said the analogy of the dominating chimp to point out hoarders off property act like animals.

If you want to be better than a chimp..Don't do the animal thing,do the human thing.. GIVE stuff to people that are desperate,give when you are afraid.. Give when animal survival is prompting you from a place of advantage to hoard what others need...

That's what it takes to be MORE than an animal.

We are all going to die regardless..And when we die our hoarded property what becomes of it?

You have a business ,So survival wise you have a great advantage that the others don't have..You got more stuff to give..

They got nothing..Be better than the animals..Be better than greedy hoarder businessmen killing to protect THEIR territory and be better than the looters...GIVE..IT ..AWAY.

That's what it takes to really morally rise above the animal within us that makes humanity so sickening.

[mondo joe]

101. I'm neither better nor worse than a chimp. But YOU are the one who

argued that theft is okay because we're animals.

If theft is okay because we're animals why isn't every other act of self interest?

It's you who can't seem to come up with a standard for human behavior.

And please drop the false notion that all business is owned by the wealthy who can just give everything away. Most small business is owned by middle income people and much of that is businesses doing so poorly that they will fail. They have as real an interest in protecting themselves as any looter.

[undergroundpanther]

120. Ok do you not have INSURANCE

On your business?

And isn't part of INCORPORATING a way to protect YOU from financial ruin if your business venture fails?

Come on..business people have to get capital to start a business at all.If you don't have it or your parents don't you got to ask uncle same for grants or go to the bank or get some rich person to invest in your venture.
A loan means a BANK trusted you and usually it's because of someonme they know knows YOU and says you are a good risk.. That means you were a safe risk for the bank..

A person wanting to get off welfare cannot go to a bank and say Hey,I wannba start a toothpick business and get handed 10,000 bucks captial."seed money".They have to woo the investors.If they don't know the investor class in thier area they will face alot of skeptical inquiries.And most likely be laughed out of the bank.
IAlot of business gets started on an investment banks make in your idea that makes them decide to give you the loan and when you incoroprate there are protections on business owners so that you the owner are not totally ruined if the business tanks. Also you take out INSURANCE. Insurance pays for things like looting,disasters ect..The banks fund most risks small business takes when poor people start up.Also there are GRANTS you don't have to pay back too.

So yeah you put alot of work in running a business,Just like any other worker in this crazty society d does, but it is not work all done by YOU alone..Don't swell your head here.

Having a business does not make you more worthy of life or love or care. You are a suffering struggling scared human being like the rest of us are in a world you cannot control or predict.Get over yourself.

[mondo joe]

143. I don't own a business. You don't know what you're talking about.

But there is no insuring one from failure.

Many people get a small nest egg and invest it all in a small business. Most of those fail and they lose out on everything.

Your hatred for anyone but the poorest has blinded you to the fact that there are business owners who aren't that much better off than the looters.

In fact it's sad that you're so for the poor - except those who manage to break free. Even a little. Then you want to pull them right back down again.

[tx_dem41]

146. You know some people actually EARN capital.....

you ought to try it some time.

[BikeWriter]

105. I'm sick? You are the one advocating stealing!

Theft and anarchy are not humane!

[undergroundpanther]

114. Theft

Is humane if it is the only thing you can do to get the formula you need to feed a child.

Theft is humane if it is the only way you can take care of the people you love and others and the other alternatives to survival are not forth coming.

People do what they have to do,

Hoarding weath like a dominantt chimp and shooting people who threaten to take a few of your bananas is inhumane.

Do you not understand how to SHARE?

[BikeWriter]

121. I understand how to share. You advocate stealing!

[undergroundpanther]

77. Property owners?

No killing people for property,period.
I don't excuse property owners killing people to protect property in a disaster.
I don't excuse looters who kill people for property either in a disaster.

Now if a property owner is shooting at a looter and the looter defends himself it is his right to defend his own life or the lives of others.
If a property owner is being shot at by a looter,and the owner defends his life or the lives of others and shoots the looter ,he has the right to defend his life ..Just like the looter does.

As for property I don't care..

Lives I do care about.

They are worth more than property.

[mondo joe]

87. You may not realize it but property is not exclusive to the wealthy.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stepnw1f]

155. You Assume Poor People Who Loot Will Kill?

Tells us how you really feel about ALL who steal. You might ask sometime why they do it rather than accept the preconceived notion that these people are inhuman enough to kill.

How do you look a poor people, I wonder?

[Llewlladdwr]

167. I'd be happy to.

Anyone who steals should be shot. Case closed. There's nothing I hate worse than a thief. No man has the right to take my property from me.

[mondo joe]

47. If you want to rail against the ruling class you're after the wrong people

Americans continue to vote against their own self interest.

The ruling class is the US population who keep voting for the bad guys or not voting at all.

[Mairead]

55. How is that relevant? (nt)

[mondo joe]

59. You're the one who brought up the ruling class. n/t

[Mairead]

66. Fine, so your comment was not relevant. Didn't think so. (nt)

[mondo joe]

69. You brought up the "ruling class". To what end? The ruling class

includes the people looting. It includes me. It includes you.

Why has the "ruling class" decided stealing is not acceptable?

[undergroundpanther]

123. Because they rule

By making people scared to share stuff. If they can hoard resources and distribute it,they can deprive us.. they can dole out who gets and who doesent.It's a way to CONTROL people through poverty and class.To make sure they never are free to refuse thier"offers" or demands..

[mondo joe]

147. You ignore the fact that we all - including the poor - can change that

with our votes. But we don't do it very often, do we?

[undergroundpanther]

73. Damn

The ignorance some people have about poverty amazes me..All the pull yourselves up by their bootstraps crowd haven't a clue about how offensive they are.
Look,
Success does not happen to everyone.
Hard work, talent and dedication does not always pay off,sometimes it causes problems,sometimes it lies dormant,sometimes you can't get work sometimes you can't cope..
A coercive boss at a hopeless minimum wage job is not there for everyone who is desperate.Bosses still pick and choose and throw people away.
Sometimes you try and try and do your best but still you do not "make it".
In america you whore yourself out to rich people like so much merchandise..And if no one is interested in buying you,well you can always DIE.

That is life in a class-est inhuman hierarchy..

Guess what..Horatio Alger is DEAD.

[undergroundpanther]

80. Depends

Are the rich gonna kill them for being poor and desperate?

[lonestarnot]

119. Yes through a long slow death by use of slave labor.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. Why Would It Be Wrong Then

Why would it be wrong then to get out your glock, put a cap in some hapless guy's ear, take his Escalade, sell it on the hot market, and use that dough to live for a year?

[BikeWriter]

109. I notice he hasn't answered you.

[undergroundpanther]

112. Do you want to glock people?

Glock people for being desperate?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. You Are Avoiding The Question...

Why would it be wrong for some "poor guy" then to get out his glock, put a cap in some hapless guy's ear, take his Escalade, sell it on the hot market, and use that dough to live for a year?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. I Don't Want To Glock Anybody....

I think it's illegal to shoot someone who is fleeing with your property.....

[BikeWriter]

131. Hee hee hee! You had better think again.

[BikeWriter]

130. Don't steal from me and you won't be quite so desperate.

Steal from me and you fucked up.

[undergroundpanther]

18. Yes they can

And if they have no money or shelter or stuff for taking care of thier kids,the moral thing to do IS to steal from the wealthy.The rich piggies and corporates won't miss it. And homeowners it would be a good thing to SHARE.We own nothing in this world,when we die,it's all left behind. But suffering is happing right now and it hurts the poor the wosrt ..So sharing some of what you have can ease the pain of those who would take in desperate fear and stop the panic of desperate people.Reach out don't hole up.

Fuck the wealthy's property..Look if I can't find a way to survive in coming weeks of the aftermath without taking it.. I'll take..

Welfare checks will not be coming on time dude. Have you ever been desperate or not?With that haughty tone,I guess you have never been desperate and dreading the future with no way out of a dire situation before.

[BikeWriter]

31. Don't fucking tell me I'm "haughty." You're excusing theft...

I've worked for everything I have, and anyone stealing from me is fucking up by the numbers!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

132. I Wouldn't Shoot Somebody Who Was Running Off With My Car

but I wouldn't lose any sleep if the authorities did....

I would hope that they shoot to wound and not to kill but in a civilized society there has to be a risk to deter miscreants from preying on innocent people or else you have a Lord Of The Flies situation...

[BikeWriter]

134. Precisely. Some people don't seem to understand that.

[mondo joe]

32. Since you put it that way, anyone can rationalize anything if they

want it enough. Steal an election, lead the country to war - fuck the rules if you don't like them.

[Xithras]

42. Who is "wealthy"?

Most stores in the US are still privately owned, and becoming a store owner doesn't automatically make you a part of some wealthy elite that deserves to be stolen from. As a business owner who doesn't even make enough to pay all of his bills without working a second job, I have to say that I'd shoot any looter who came into my business after a disaster. Their "profit" would come straight out of my pocket, and that isn't going to happen.

This is looting for greed, not survival. It's BS and it should be stopped by any force required. These people are making a bad situation FAR worse.

[BikeWriter]

58. Thank you, I agree. Anarchism one day into a disaster is crap.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. My Dad Had A Ninth Grade Education...

This was the 60's....

He owned a candy store, worked six days a week from six to six, and took home $175.00 a week...

His store was burglarized during a blizzard.... The looters didn't go after the candy...

[mondo joe]

102. And many business owners get by paycheck to paycheck just

like a lot of other people do. The losses they can sustain hurt them as hard as anyone else.

[Obamanaut]

62. And the reason "The rich piggies and corporates...

corporates won't miss it" is that when the dust settles, the losses will be passed on to the consumer via higher prices. Breaking and entering, burglary - still crimes regardless of the circumstances.

[kymar57]

93. agree 100 % n/t

[undergroundpanther]

12. If I had a baby

and I was on welfare and my house was gone,and the mail was not going to be running for a long time,damn straight I'd take food for me and my kid,diapers,and some more to give to others,I'd take stuff to make a shelter with,garbage bags utensils,blankets,a radio( for news) and something dry to sleep on, a crib maybe,flashlights,candles,lighters,fuel, batteries,water and ice,medicine..fresh clothes,sunscreen(all the trees are gone) tampons birth control pills,oh and I would take money and valuables because you can buy shit or trade for you need from others with it once the stores are guarded.Because the checks would be delayed,a glitch in the comptuer system can delay welfare checks for months, So a ruined SS building could delay it much longer.People with no money need to survive somehow. Don't get haughty and moralistic here.Things change in the way you think about"property" and the woes of rich folks losses.. when you need to survive.

[BikeWriter]

16. Yeah, let's all act like animals!

[undergroundpanther]

19. We ARE animals

In case you forgot and the National guard is arresting people for taking food . That is animal behavior too..Like a dominant chimp in a dying forest that is scarce on food beating up a subordinate chimp for pilfering a few of HIS bananas.

That is animal behavior too

Look people do radical things secure comfortable people would NEVER do or think they wouldn't do in disastrous situations.
Cannibalism is one.

The humane thing to do would be to make sure the people ALL OF THEM have access to food, shelter,a place to sleep, baby care items,medicine and water/ice first.GIVE IT AWAY,Let People take it.
Let go of the game of ownership and class because it is hindering people 's survival..

When people are not sure they will get the necessities of life they need in coming weeks because they are poor and the SS offices computers are gone,,than they freak out ..And yes they take big ticket items they don't need to USE because they can sell it if they need to get food later.. Duh!

[mondo joe]

34. If "we're animals" is your defense, it should also be the defense of

anyone unwilling to share and looking out for themselves only. Because they're animals too, y'know.

[undergroundpanther]

44. Well be better than animals than,

SHARE.

[mondo joe]

50. So which is it, are we animals? Or are we to hold to some ideals

and ethics?

[undergroundpanther]

124. We have thics because we can

Choose to go against instincts.We can share what we got so no one is without..

[mondo joe]

144. It's funny how your standards keep shifting.

If you look out for yourself by stealing you're an animal and that's good.

But if you look out for yourself by protecting yourself from theft you're an animal and it's bad.

Can't decide, can you?

[BikeWriter]

65. I do share, but no one will steal from me!

[BikeWriter]

36. You say you're an anmal. Yes, I'm an animal, too. I pay my own way...

The jackals and hyenas don't steal from me.

[Karenina]

68. See post #13

Read up on Enron and while you're at it, the entire Ponzi scheme *co has installed in your economic program. Unlwflcombatnt has posted EXCELLENT threads on GDP that may be of interest to you. I bet you're a self-made man too!

[BikeWriter]

75. Thank you, I'll look.

[tjdee]

37. Yes, you are right. Much better to let hungry people starve.

Do I want them coming to my house and taking my food? No.

Do I think they should be arrested for taking food from a store in a situation like this? I don't know.

But I also don't find it to be necessarily wrong when poor and/or desperate people take food that is spoiling and will probably be thrown out anyway.

I do not think it makes them better people to go hungry because the stores weren't open/ they are stocking up on food they couldn't afford. I don't think these people are going to used that saved food money for their Lexus payment next month.

[Igel]

17. Why are you so sure that's what's going on?

Do you have evidence that's what's motivating them? Were you there?

[undergroundpanther]

21. Someone posted pictures..

Cnn is all pissed off about food thieves..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[redwitch]

26. OK, I'm hijacking this thread

Have you seen the footage of the local news/weather?man rescuing a man from a stranded car? The man simply charged out into waist deep water at hellbent for leather speed- because he saw someone in need. No thought for his own safety, he just went. Let's face it folks, disaster brings out the best in some people and the worst in others. Looting happens, but so do incredible acts of heroism like the one I've just mentioned. Sorry no link to the video but I'm sure it is already here somewhere. I have to start focussing on the positive or I will go mad. Chin up everybody and try to do what you can to help and to lift people up, and not over the edge.

[petronius]

35. You are totally correct

I'm sure we'll hear some incredible stories of courage and sacrifice once all the 'sexy' news of death and criminality gets used up. And imagine that many of the truly heartwarming stories that play out as neighbors help each other rebuild will never see airtime.

(I would also wager don't really have much idea of who we'd turn out to be in the midst of a disaster like this...)

[redwitch]

41. Yes. I like to think I'd be the one to charge in heroically...

More likely I'd be the stranded motorist!

[11 Bravo]

53. Damn! It couldn't have been 2 seconds after I finished reading your post

that my local news (NBC4 in D.C.) showed the clip. That was eerie.

[Igel]

88. I was hoping for pictures.

The CNN site isn't helpful.

I assume, of course, they were just stealing the minimum they needed for the next day or two to fend off the Grim Reaper.

But the CNN site does have the text: "We're outside of a Winn-Dixie grocery store on St. Louis Street here, and they're literally walking out with the store. Shopping carts filled to overflowing, they even have some of their kids going in with them to get stuff out of the store, just one after the other, there must be 40 or 50 people inside, coming out of the Winn-Dixie parking lot here right now."

Just the necessary basics.

Nah.

[patdem]

13. If you want to talk about looting..we need to see a gas station raising

gas prices in a flooded devistated area...THAT IS LOOTING!

[Mairead]

33. Right on! Well said. The spectrum of discourse is so deformed

that we can hardly even wrap our minds around such ideas.

It's like the Second Wave of feminism in the '70s -- it was so hard for us to raise our consciousness to the point where we could even start thinking about some things. We take the most appalling things for granted because that's the dominant discourse.

It's gotta change!

[Telly Savalas]

43. 'Tis my understanding that the LA attorney general is going to

aggressively prosecute price gougers.

[patdem]

52. I just recently learned about LA gouging laws..does ole Miss have the

same laws..seems Mississippi is getting hit harder then Louisiana?

[Telly Savalas]

153. I don't know.

My guess is that most states have somewhat similiar laws with this regard. If I recall correctly both the Kansas and Missouri district attorneys cracked down on creeps who price gouged at gas stations on 9/11. So if KS, MO, and LA all have such laws, it seems likely that Mississippi would too. I'm too lazy to google it though.

[mondo joe]

57. One kind of looting does not make another acceptable.

Stealing to survive if all other alternatives are exhausted is acceptable.

Simply exploiting a bad situation is not.

[fishnfla]

20. Looters would get to my business over my dead body

But the greater likelihood is they'd have to climb over other looters' dead bodies to get to me

[Cooley Hurd]

22. Is your business FOOD?

Is so, and the event is a MAJOR natural disaster, then I would HOPE you'd open the doors to your business to those in need.

[mondo joe]

28. Yeah, because after all it's up to you to feed everyone and not

expect repayment.

[Cooley Hurd]

30. Ooh - a stalker!

Following me around the board, are you?

[patdem]

48. Mondo...business' get insurance payments..people could starve to

death before they get insurance payments...and of course..they cannot collect paychecks...and live from paycheck to paycheck..so starve..?? An you are a liberal?

[mondo joe]

51. As I've said elsewhere I think stealing to survive if all other

alternatives are exhausted is acceptable.

[patdem]

92. So I suppose you expect the 'head of the family' to say..lets gather round

this floating kitchen table and see what all our options are?? Or do you think people panic during an EXTREMELY STRESSFUL situation?

Give me a break here...and them there..since you are not there..and you are not subject to what they fear...you did read about the run up to the storm? and they lost electricity..and they know all is well..and everything will be up and running tomorrow and they have nothing to worry about. ? YOU ARE THE ARBITRATOR OF OPTIONS FOR THE PEOPLE IN NEW ORLEANS?

[mondo joe]

96. What problem can you possibly have with what what I said? If all

alternatives are exhausted and one must steal to survive, then steal.

What's the problem with that?

Did you get out of that that people should sit around and starve? If so you should re-read it.

[patdem]

104. mondo joe..I have remained silent..and just reading about what COUL:D

happen...what DID happen..and how people seem to be something forced to deal with because of a natural disaster..then this looting thing..I say if you steal a TV...you can be shot...but to steal food you should be given a pass...and so many think stealing anything is wrong..EXCEPT the gas stations stealing money from your pocket to the petroleum industry..I am VERY FRUSTRATED...and I do not mean to take it out on you...and yes..you and I do seem to agree!

[mondo joe]

107. Thanks Pat. And it is a very frustrating time.

[undergroundpanther]

24. Well

If you want to protect property and are willing to kill for it,maybe you should learn how to share.If I had a business I'd give my stuff away.
Why? Because If I had a business I'd have money in the bank set aside. Some of those people don't have money or anything set aside or a home,nothing and they have just lost whatever they had possibly loved ones. It is the least I could do to help. Maybe they could sell what I give them and on that money could survive until they found work or the welfare checks came in.

See for me,my"property" myself mine I means nothing,In a hurricane like that if I lived I'd count myself lucky. I don't need to protect the property when I value people more than what I got.My money would be safe in my bank.I could live on that,collect insurance or get out of business and get work. Life goes on without me but my property could help others who need more than I do...I realize if I had a business my success was due to the people paying for the stuff they bought at a markup from the distributor price. I made money because I upped the cost and they paid.. I think a disaster would be time to GIVE BACK to them..

This is where you and I differ ethically. I realize in a hurricane like Katrina,I could be dead at any moment, and so could alot of others.So what is my property worth to me after I am dead? Why hoard while I got a financial cushion? My property given to others could mean survival for someones baby,a down payment to rent a home,transportation out of the city,Someones burial costs,a medical bill..food later in the month.Liquid assets like valuables can become transformed into funds for necessities easily. I am surprised so many people forget this,when looking from afar.

Also I know damn well there are career thieves and opportunists that are looting for profit in the mix of people .
And I don't care.. I am not some gatekeeper with the audacity to pick and choose who gets based on the most convincing sob stories I hear or on who looks like they are suffering the most. Fuck that game.I'd give what I got until it's gone.And than I'd start over like everyone else..I am not going to apply social darwinism in a disaster. People are desperate.I got, so I would give.I value life and easing of suffering over property ownership and me, mine, my,oink. OK?

[Mairead]

63. Beautifully said!

[BikeWriter]

85. "If I had a business I'd give my stuff away" Two words. Bull. shit.

You don't have a business and you're talking bull shit. In my opinion, of course. Talk is cheap. Do something. Make money, then give it away. Don't fuckin' steal it, or condone other's stealing.

[mondo joe]

91. Some people think if you have things it's just "stuff". They don't

understand that everything costs something. And they don't understand that small businesses are not primarily owned by the wealthy and many are just getting by.

[BikeWriter]

100. You got that right, Joe. I sweated and bled for everything I own...

Any arrogant bastard stealing from me by force may wind up in a pine box.

[undergroundpanther]

110. Everyone sweats and bleeds

You got lucky your sweating and bleeding got you more stuff than others wowee!!

And don't try to tell me some person working TWO minimum wage jobs that get them nowhere isn;t sweating or bleeding too.

In this world we all suffer. You hit a jackpot.

And someday you will be dead. And all that sweating and blood did nothing to save you,Your loved ones may die..than what?

Property is not worth killing people over.

What if your kid was killed because another"property" owner was defending his stash and your kid was walking through and the property owner got scared he might TAKE HIS STUFF he bled and sweated for....would that be OK with you??

[BikeWriter]

115. You bring up shit that does not relate. I have dug ditches..

and numerous other unskilled jobs. Stay the fuck away from my shit and don't say it's okay for others to steal from me and we'll get along.

[patdem]

113. Underground..I thought this when I read about the insurance companies

in Germany who have lost money because of the re-insurance and the possible loss because of Katrina..and thought. How wonderful a society we would be if we ran to INVEST rather than disinvest when such a horrible disaster happened. To run TOWARD sharing rather than attempting to make money off of other people's suffering. I am crying about this..and the looting and the demand that the poorest of the poor needs to held accountable while the conglomerates raise prices because of this natural disaster...

[undergroundpanther]

126. I know

and people are so greedy and defensive they just don't get it.if you profit off suffering,than we all suffer.

[slackmaster]

56. Anyone who doesn't have enough food for a couple of days planned poorly

The fact the national guard is keeping people from FOOD shows we are NOT living in a democracy...

Since when is "democracy" defined as a society in which people are allowed to take food without paying for it?

I'm sorry to be so blunt about this, but it's not all that difficult nor is it expensive to stock yourself up with proper emergency supplies. People had days of warning before the storm struck. I live and work in earthquake country. My house is well stocked with emergency food and water and camping gear. In my desk at work I keep a couple of MREs on hand at all times. And for the record I'll be happy to share my stuff with needy people in the event of a disaster.

Most people can get by for a day or two without food. Let me know when people start suffering more than hunger pangs due to the National Guard doing its job of maintaining civil order.

[earth mom]

72. Most people live paycheck to paycheck. There is NO extra money

to stock up! I think you assume way too much.

[tjdee]

76. Exactly.

I think the people who are so hard on the looters aren't understanding that this isn't a "I decided to go plumb nuts and be greedy and steal!" thing.

This is more of a continuation of their life situation. It's really easy to say people who aren't prepared for the hurricane are irresponsible or whatever, but if they don't have the money, they don't have the money. The money isn't going to just show up in their pockets because there's a hurricane.

I guess they should go out and get three or four jobs to make ends meet so they can be more responsible.

[earth mom]

70. Since I don't have cable it's kind of difficult to understand

what's really going on, but I'll take a stab at it. From the sound of it, it appears that CNN is focused more on looting than on the people who are hurt or trapped or in trouble. Since we all know that stealing and looting is wrong, CNN focusing on some corporations goods rather than the humans that are suffering is beyond disgusting! Sounds like their m.o. is to turn the tables on the poor and paint them in the cruelest light instead of * and all the other rethug bastards who really could care less what happens to the poor of New Orleans. Why am I not surprised?!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

149. Actually, no.....

They showed a store that was broken into (who knows, maybe the windows blown out) and an ATM broken into for a total of less than a minute of the 2 hours I watched this afternoon. Most of the talk was about the people huddled in the Superdome and what they would do if the roof kept peeling away.

Hope that cools your jets.

[Deja Q]

74. * told people not to leave their shelters until they got PERMISSION too.

Permission from the Guard...

W

[VADem11]

78. Not everyone

is looting food. Many people are taking advantage of the situation to take non essential items. Those are the people who should be arrested.

[tjdee]

86. I definitely see a difference between stealing food and stealing ATM

machines.

I do think the underlying motives are similar though.

[undergroundpanther]

111. Money BUYS food It can BUY a car to get OUT of the disaster.

[tjdee]

117. Oh definitely.

I can understand the motivation...I don't know. It seems less wrong somehow to steal some bread. Maybe it's a question of need vs. being greedy and being out to take as much as you can get.

[undergroundpanther]

129. THIS IS THE CRUX

Stealing for Needs VS stealing all you can to hoard wealth.

Hoarding while others suffer is wrong.
Stealing to hoard while you have and not out of need or survial is wrong.
Hoarding to keep when you have plenty and depriving others of what they need is wrong.

When is having enough ENOUGH?
And where do you draw the line?

Would you kill to save a car?

If that car could be used to pay for a lot of diapers and formula?

What if that car is being stripped in a mafia chop shop and the mob pockets the profits?


Whare do you draw the line?

The car will never feel the pain of a bullet ripping flesh, it's mother will not be devistated,a car cannot feel the pain of hunger,a car will not benifiert from the mafias profits..

It is a dumb thing an object,a commodity.

People on the other hand are not commodities until a society makes them think they must become objects to be used and pay to exist on a world that once gave resources to all equally and freely until the property people decided only they owned it and defended it with guns.
Than a belief was born.a very sick deeply ientrenced belief that has hurt humanity for millenia.Winners take,losers are objects to be used by winners..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. You Judge An Act By The Effect On The Victim

not on the intentions of the perpetrator...

[undergroundpanther]

166. Perpretrators are innocent until proven guilty

Victims get hurt regardless of intentions.
What'ts your point that victims should shut up and take it if they are not as fotrtunate ?

[BikeWriter]

160. I hope you have never acted upon the morality you expound...

In my opinion, it sucks like pond scum sucks.

[Danmel]

84. I'm not excusing looting- I lived thru the 1977 NYC blackout

When looting was rampant. I lived in Brooklyn at the time and I have to tell you entire communities were devastated for many many years following that orgy of looting. And that's what it was- an orgy of looting. It took a long long time for recovery. There were no stores to service the communities and no one wanted to go into those communities and it was very very bad.

It was truly disheartening, it really was. Whole neighborhoods were devastated. Merchants who had remained in inner city neighborhoods despite everyone urging them to leave were wiped out. My family had a friend who had a men's clothing store in East Flatbush. He remained there for years after the neighborhood changed from primarily Jewish and Italian to Caribbean. He didn't want to leave. In the looting following the black out, he was completely and totally wiped out. The hangers and light fixtures were stolen. He had nothing left. He did not reopen there and there was no store there for at least three years. What is the point of devastating your own community??????

Last year when there was the big blackout in the Northeast in the summer time too, there was virtually no looting in NYC. I 'm sure there are still needy people. But there was no orgy of looting. And the city was calm and safe and people helped each other. And the communities where there had been looting in 1977 were just as calm as the rest of the city. So what is it that precipitates that type of reaction?

[tjdee]

94. Are New Yorkers richer than they used to be?

I suspect so, knowing how much apartments go for in Manhattan, LOL--but I don't know. I know some poorer people still live there (cab drivers, etc.)... I don't know.

Desperate people do desperate things. Mr. "I work for a major magazine and live on the West side" isn't going to be bothered to go down to the neighborhood electronics place and steal a plasma tv.

[Danmel]

99. Some are, a lot aren't

Perhaps it was because of 9/11. Maybe New YOrkers just don't any more bad shit to happen. I don't know. I think in the inner cities there are probably as many if not more people who have real economic problems. I have great empathy for them, but looting is not the answer to their problems.

[Pied Piper]

165. My own unprofessional opinion

is that NYers, who experienced 9/11 first hand, have become more human than the rest of us. They saw the planes hit, not on TV, but live, in real life. The saw the jumpers, and they watched the towers crumble in front of their very eyes. This wasn't a made-for-tv movie, it was real life for them.

I grew up in the mid-west hearing that NYC was the new Sodom. I was absolutely terrified of the city on my first visit in 1986. I now live in Boston and have had many occasions to visit NYC. Post 9/11, I've found the NY-ers to be the most friendly and helpful to tourists.

One year after 9/11, I had the lucky opportunity to perform at Carnegie Hall. After the concert, my buddies and I went bar-hopping. When asked why I was wearing a tuxedo, my pals would respond, "He just played at Carnegie Hall!" At every single bar that we visited that night, the whole company received free drinks.

Granted, I was on quite a rush from the concert, but why would 5 different bars give complimentary drinks to a gang of tourists?

I love NYC and its people. If I didn't have a job that I love in Boston, I would love to live in NYC for a year or so, maybe more...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

103. There Was Looting After 9-11

There was a Levis store below the Twin Towers I believe and that was looted... A jewelry store too.....

It has nothing to do with social class and everything to do with a flawed character who exploits a calamity.. They are the worst kind of predators...

[BikeWriter]

108. Yes, they are the buzzards, the jackals, the hyenas.

Sad.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

125. Here's The Link....

http://www.wnbc.com/news/1793079/detail.html

[BikeWriter]

127. That is terribly sad. I was a firefighter in a well known city...

for five years. That story makes me ill.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

128. We Aren't Sure Who Did It...

My point wasn't to cast dispersions on firefighters but to show bad acts are bad acts...

[BikeWriter]

133. Yes, hopefully it was someone else's stash. Whatever...

it was wrong!

[Imagevision]

122. Rumsfeld thought looting in Iraq after invasion was acceptable...!

http://downingstreetmemo.com/

[undergroundpanther]

137. Thats because

it was to tear a people down and break them.The museum was looted and rich collectors got the booty.Other nations booty they do not need to survive.

The rich are permitted theft,the poor are not,because if the poor thought like the rich do and went for the booty too,the rich would not be a ruling class.They'd be a fortified fortress shooting anyone near them because wealth isn't just about having.. it'
s about domination and control..

A dominant greedy chimp can control a whole troop,If that troop faces scarcity he can take all the resources and hoard it..by theft and brute force.(just like when America was colonized and how Iraq is being looted) If the dominant chip can arrange circumstances so he can deprive the others..And they know he has all the food.. He can choose who he doles out food to..First to eat are his loyal obedient troop members of his CHOICE. With desperation and a stash he can get any chimp to do his bidding..So if he waves the carrot in his face,and he's hungry enough the subordinate chimp will do..He "hires" the hungry chimp to use the stick on any other chimp wanting to survive as the dominant chimp has done by taking a banana from his stash.Theft is wrong it will be punished..

In This way the dominant hoarding chimp controls the suffering troop until one of the troop members, finds a place with alot of food,then the bully has lost control of his troops and they are PISSED at being mistreated .Than it's WAR!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

135. Hmmm......I wonder what food was in that smashed ATM?

I'm sure it was yummy......

[undergroundpanther]

138. Hmm I wonder what food could be bought

with the money?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

139. All the stores are closed.....

Why do you need money if you advocate just looting the stores for food?

You opened the thread by talking about people simply stealing food to keep from starving....now you've worked your way up to stealing money. Of which I'm sure there are things other than food that can be bought......

[BikeWriter]

142. That's what happens when one rationalizes dishonesty...

It escalates!

[BikeWriter]

140. You are advocating theft, not welfare, anarchy, not sharing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

145. Nobody Is Discussing The Effect On The Looter's Soul...

Unless the looter is a sociopath I can't believe being a predator is good for someones self esteem...

Talk about the soft bigotry of lowered expectations....


At least Bush* came up with one workable concept...

[BikeWriter]

151. Lol! Yes, we expect nothing but immorality from *.

It is upsetting to see some of these arguments here, though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

154. Please Rent The Movie Crash...

There's this great scene where this African American man tries to hijack another African American man's car... One is a "gangsta" and the other is a upper middle class guy... The guy resists and a big cop car chase ensues.... At the end he looks at the hijacker and says "you embarass me.... you embarass yourself..."

[BikeWriter]

157. Aww hell, so does good triumph over evil, or do I rent the movie?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

159. It's Set In LA

and it's a tale of all the ethnic groups at each other's throats but certain characters stand out for their integrity....

[BikeWriter]

161. Cool, if I'm ever written into such a movie...

a good guy will have to play me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

162. Here's A Link...

I'm too tired to do a decent movie review...


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375679/

[BikeWriter]

163. Thank you, yes, it has been a rough day.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

141. Under Your Scenario

Is it justified to mug people at random and use that money to buy food?

[mondo joe]

148. Bought? But if they could BUY food they wouldn't be LOOTing,

would they?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

150. I Have Been Around Marxists, Socialists Anarchists, Etcetera

but this is a novel concept that all it takes to justify an act of theft is that the perpetrator wants what he stole...

[BikeWriter]

152. Agreed.

[Moderator]

168. Locking

This thread has proven extremely flammable...

DU Moderator