They're so young!

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

Every night I watch The News Hour With Jim Leher. At the end they show pictures of fallen soldiers. All I can think is that they're so young. So many are barely teenagers. I think "they've their whole live ahead of them". Others are late 20's or early 30's. Both my sons are early 30's with babies. And I think, "They have babies & widows, & they've probably just bought houses & really started their lives. Or, they're in their 40's & I think, "they've got teenagers & are thinking ahead to getting the kids out of the house & starting the next phase of their life.

I won't even get to what I think about when I see a picture of a woman who was killed.

I just feel so down, but I can't look away. I was so against this war, but I have to honor every fallen soldier.

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[uppityperson]

1. I know, me too

It needs to be stopped. If I were to die for this stupid of a reason, I'd to be really pissed. It is heart breaking.

[achtung_circus]

2. There are no winners in war.

One "side" just loses less.

[knowbody0]

3. my daughter is 18

OMG kids that age are really immature. to imagine them with guns! i remember being that age and watching my friends go off to Vietnam. and the damage done to them over there. this all seems like a really bad dream today.
THIS MUST STOP
peace and love to you and your big heart

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

4. to

uppity person, achtung_circus, & knowbody0.

Thank you! I'm not a good writer & that you understand my pain means a lot to me.

To knowbody0. DH was drafted in 'Nam, & I remember it well. No one I knew was drafted. We were a bit too young & I lived in a very upscale area. We were safe. I still felt others pain. I didn't know anyone who lost a child, but now it's as I'm living it all over again as a mother.

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[knowbody0]

5. amen

[uppityperson]

6. I am concerned about the kids I know.

Mine won't be in a bushwar, we have some hard decisions coming up soon though, but he'll be ok. Others I know will be in the military and it is not just the dying that I feel bad about, but the killing too. I was too young during Viet Nam also, but got to know some vets in college and I would never wish war on anyone. It is very very very difficult to remain healthy emotionally or spiritually, regardless of physically. It is tough also for me to realize that war is still happening, you'd think humanity would've figured it out by now. Peace to you.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

7. DH is fifty & he's just come to terms with 'Nam.

He's very successful, but for years he mostly had a "screw you" attitude. When I (a very straight arrow kind of person) would say, "oh, you can't do that", his response would always be "What, are they gonna send me to 'Nam?" It took him a long time to realize that he needs to follow some laws & can't just go his own way.

best & thank you for understanding,

[Maru Kitteh]

26. I feel very silly but must ask

What is DH?

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

33. DH is 'dear husband' or 'dickhead' depending on your mood.

Oh, & somehow I took six years off of him. :)

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[uppityperson]

34. Very good nickname and good for you and good morning.

I have a friend who refers to ex as AP (Angry person or asshole prick)

[Kerebos]

8. When police officers are slain

do you think they are young and naive or do you think that the officer is doing his or her job and the there are dangerous assholes out there in the world?

War sucks. But we've got warfare on our own streets, and the men and women who sign up to serve and protect make a decision to do so, just like they do in our military. Are they victims too? How far will we take this?

I think it is insulting to our troops to suggest that they don't know what they are signing up for, just like it would be to suggest a rookie police officer had no idea what he or she might face.

Honor our troops. Give them the credit they deserve for knowing what they are sacrificing and signing up anyway, they are not stupid.

[uppityperson]

9. A lot of them do not understand what war really is, they are ignorant.

We do honor them and you insult us by telling us that by pitying them we do not.

[Kerebos]

11. You think they don't understand

that is my point. Maybe they do.

[uppityperson]

13. Granted, some do. But a lot do not.

Have you talked with vets much? Check out http://www.ivaw.net/ for some information about how war is hell and these kids are not, cannot, be prepared for the emotionality of it. If they were prepared, why do so many suffer PTSD, which used to be known as shell-shock in other prior wars. War is not a video game, it is not a game where you run around shooting "the enemy". No, they do not understand.

[Kerebos]

16. I appreciate your resource.

But the reason I used my original analogy is that anyone who is trained to use weapons knows there is a reason for that. You don't sign up for a high-risk job, one that offers you training in weaponry and self-defense, and life insurance policies when you sign up, without knowing it is dangerous and possibly unpredictable.

Give these men and women the credit they deserve for putting their lives on the line KNOWINGLY. They are not victims, they are heroes.

[uppityperson]

18. You are a hero for performing your job?

We disagree that they know what they are getting into. Peace to you.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

21. I don't remember saying that they

were heroes or not. I commented on how youngthey are.

As far as signing up for a high risk job, a lot of them signed up for the job thinking they would be protecting our homeland, not fighting a war in a country that was no threat to us.

Also, many thought that they were signing up to protect our country from a truethreat while getting money for college.

edited for bone head spelling mistakes

[Maru Kitteh]

30. Kerebos how many years did you awake to your fathers screams? Zero I

would wager. Given the chance I would bet half my very home that you are a white femmale under 32 who has NEVER served and harbors no intentions of doing so.

All six of my grandmother's boys volunteered for service in WWII and they all came home with their own demons. They knew what they were gtting into and they WERE heroes but they were victims too. To suggest otherwise is SIMPLE MINDED BULLSHIT.

Here's another thing to think about:
When my Dad signed up, his commander in cheif NEVER LIED TO HIM about why he was going to war.

[uppityperson]

36. My guess is a young person considering joining the military

Does not want our pity and fears being pitied for getting such an honorable, heroic job. Peace to you, and to kerebos if you join.
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

10. Okay,

how do you equate a war where we were told of a 'mushroom cloud' & 'immanent threat' with a police officer? How do you equate a teenager who signed up thinking he/she would protect us from a natural disaster or a 9/11 event with a country who had nothing to do with either?

Please explain to me what Iraq has to do with police work & Iraq.

Also, please explain to me what a police officer who is trained has to do with a military force trained to overthrow a county has to do with a military force that is now forced to be an occupying force; Something they've never been trained for.

[Kerebos]

12. I based my response on your original post.

I think it is insulting to suggest that our troops are too young to know what they are doing.

Their lives are on line, and I think they deserve credit for that. They knew it when they signed up, and I honor that.

[uppityperson]

14. So should we support Cindy Sheehan or not?

After all, Casey signed up voluntarily, he knew what he was doing. We should honor his sacrifice, right?

[Kerebos]

15. Both.

We should respect Cindy and her rights as a mother as well as Casey's wishes to serve.

They are not mutually exclusive.

[uppityperson]

17. But she is dishonoring his service, according to your reasoning

because he knew what he was signing up for.

[Kerebos]

19. She has the right to express her own feelings.

It doesn't mean everyone has to agree with her, does it?

I think Cindy is doing what she feels is right, as a mother. This is America and that is to be celebrated.

I don't think Casey was a victim. I think he was a hero. Just my 2 cents on the matter. I think when he re-enlisted in 2003 he knew, and he should be HONORED for that. He was a hero.

[uppityperson]

20. Agreement and several questions

Casey knew he could be killed, yes. Those who sign up for the military know that they could be killed.

1. Does having a high risk job make you hero?

2. If these kids know what war is, are knowledgable and prepared, like you say, why is there PTSD?

3. Why can I not appreciate what they do, honor them, yet also feel sorrow that they don't really know what war is until it happens to them?

4. How does feeling sorrow at their physical and emotional injuries dishonor them?

[Kerebos]

22. Thank you for your respectful answer.

1. Yes. When you put your life on the line, you are a hero.

2. Why is there PTSD? The same reason it happens in all walks of life. Childhood trauma, etc.

3. You are judging them and assuming they signed up never expecting or realizing it was possible they may go to war.

4. Sorrow is very different than pity.

Casey Sheehan was a hero. Please don't ever forget that.

[uppityperson]

23. Getting to the difference now, I disagree with #3 assumption

Of course they expected and realized they might go to war. Many of the reserves signed up with the assumption they would stay in the states, but knowing that they might get shipped out. Of course they knew that it was possible they may go to war. What I am saying is that they did not realize what war is. War is not shooting at the bad guys and having them shoot back. War is hell. That is what they do not know until they get into it.

And I am sorry for them, and I pity them, and I respect them.

As far as the definition of a hero, it's one I've had with other people, and has happened here @ DU many times amongst many people. Conclusion reached is that we all determine for ourselves what that word means.

[Kerebos]

24. It is okay to disagree.

Our military are trained in warfare. They prepare for warfare. They signed up and are trained to participate in possible warfare.

You pity them. I do not. This may be the crux of our disagreement.

[uppityperson]

25. I think you miss what I disagree with in #3

You write: You are judging them and assuming they signed up never expecting or realizing it was possible they may go to war.

This is what I disagree with as this is not what I am doing. Of course they expected and realized they might go to war. Many of the reserves signed up with the assumption they would stay in the states, but knowing that they might get shipped out. The regular soldiers of course knew they might go to war.

What I am saying is that they did not realize what war is. War is not shooting at the bad guys and having them shoot back. War is hell. That is what they do not know until they get into it.

[Kerebos]

27. I don't think we disagree that much.

It's a fine point.

You wrote:What I am saying is that they did not realize what war is. War is not shooting at the bad guys and having them shoot back. War is hell. That is what they do not know until they get into it.

War is them shooting back, and doing all kinds of nefarious things to "win", things that our military is trained to look out for. Rarely in life does a gunbattle happen with a man whipping out a gun and pronouncing that he will shoot you if you don't shoot him first. It's all strategy and a game of survival. Our military are the best trained in the world and they enter voluntarily. They deserve major kudos for that. We can't predict every mishap, but they are trained to look out for the unexpected. They know that the unexpected is part of the job, and again, kudos to them for taking that on.

[uppityperson]

28. "And you lose a little bit of your soul, when you kill someone"

regardless of whether or not you are trained, whether or not they are shooting back. I couldn't do it and do not know how to train for that part of it. I take care of the aftermath of things as a healthcare provider, taking care of wounded people (physical and mental wounds).

Thank you for staying civil. It can be difficult when dealing with highly emotional issued, and with someone long distance, and over the internet where it is easy to be misinterpreted.

Are you able to get to Crawford?

[Kerebos]

29. Interesting question.

Could you kill someone trying to kill you? Could you kill someone trying to kill another innocent person? I think you could. It would probably surprise you, but you could and would, even without training. You lose a bit of your "soul" but you don't lose your life.

Anyhow, thank you too for the civil discussion.

About Crawford, I'd love to be able to go. I think it's great that Cindy is doing what she feels is right.

[uppityperson]

31. Kerebos, I think you are missing the points here.

The point is not did the soldiers know they might go to war. The point is not were they trained in warfare, to kill and to avoid being killed. They know they might go to war and they are trained to go to war. We agree with you on these points.

You are missing what we are saying here. We are saying that many of them are young, are/were just starting their adult lives, and now are dead and this is a shame. We are saying that the ones that are not killed also suffer damage from war, and not just physical damage. We are saying that very very very few people are prepared for the horrors of war, and can suffer from this for a long time.

We feel sorry for the suffering and it is called sympathy and empathy. If you believe that we are dishonoring them by feeling this way, I am truly sorry for you.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

42. UP,

I never figured it out. I could not get where Kerebos was coming from & sat back & let you do all the work. You're right: s/he thinks we're dishonoring them by feeling bad for them & their families, & for the ones who come back, feeling sorry for them & their future families if they have PTSD

Kerebos, no, I am not dishonoring them. They have my full respect. I'm sure many, many, many signed up strictly for tuition, etc. They could have run, but instead chose to honor their commitment & serve. Many more are weekend warriors who signed to protect their states in case of a natural disaster. Many have given up good paying jobs, left their families for god knows how long & are on their second or third tour. They have my prayers.

best

[KayLaw]

41. I must admit, Kerebos . . .

I can't say I know about all the troops in Iraq, but I do wonder why the majority signed up. What were they thinking? Were they hoping to put themselves through college? Did they think they wouldn't be called to put their lives on the line should their country face a genuine threat? Why did so many volunteer before, and so few now

I once considered becoming a police officer. Had I made that choice, I'd have known what I was signing up for. Should my son say, Mom, I want to be a cop, I'd accept his choice, because I'd know he had a good understanding of what the job involved.

If I were a cop I would put myself between you and a killer because it was my job and the right thing to do. But what if the chief of police was corupt? What if s/she expected me to let the average citizen die while I protected the interests of the mob?

What if the mob boss hated a family that posessed something he craved and needed and he expected some of us to--as Senator Graham said -- rape, torure, and murder those people--kids included? Then what?

I really doubt these kids --most of whom were raised on Big Bird and decency--signed on for this.

[uppityperson]

35. Do you not pity these people? Were they fully prepared for war?

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBU8QR2MCE.html

[uppityperson]

32. Are you saying that vets PTSD is caused by childhood trauma, etc?

wow. It has been called PTSD, shell shock, and battle fatigue and has its etiology in the horrors of war. Denying it or calling it childhood trauma is very disrespectful of vets suffering from it.

[tabasco]

38. Our troops are not supposed to be occupying a Middle Eastern

country for NO REASON. Just like Vietnam, the war is built on lies. But many corporations are making a lot of money so it's ok with you.

WAR DOES SUCK, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE IN IT!

Here's a site for you if you care to walk the walk:

www.goarmy.com

Even if you're prior service they'll take you if you're 42 or under!

I'm an infantry combat vet an I am tellng you to FUCK OFF. Soldiers are not suppposed to die for corporate profits.

Your dear leader ABANDONED THE MISSION AGAINST THE REAL ENEMY so his corporate buddies could sit on the Iraqi oil. WAKE THE FUCK UP OR JUST GO AWAY.

[annabanana]

40. (I think he's gone)...eom

[Imagevision]

37. 17% (2300) of national guard and reservists are aged 50-59

I could't imagine putting these men and women thru 3 tours of duty, and Bush continues to say; "we're staying until the mission is completed"??

This is a war Presidents strategy, no wonder why the US. troop suicide rate has increased 4% from last year!!

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

39. I didn't know that.

I can't even imagine being that age & fighting in this stupid war. These folks are supposed to be planning for their retirement, going to kid's graduations, walking their daughters down the aisle. Not fighting in this crazy, insane, immoral war so dumbya can best poppy at something.

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