Pro-Invasion Civilians Who Regret Their Decision - Do You Support Them?

[matcom]

Or not.

I frankly, have no use for them but want to hear your thoughts on the subject.

MY thoughts are if you were DUMB enough to support this war then I'm not sure you are qualified to have a 'change of heart'.

FYI, I realize that is mean on a certain level but THAT is what I feel

thanks for honest input

[jody]

1. If they acknowledge their mistake, I gently try to discuss other issues

on which Bush has been wrong. If you can plant doubt in one person's mind, particularly if they are independents, it may convince them to listen to the Democratic message and vote for Dems in the future.

[FloridaPat]

2. Going to be very hard to put Bushco in jail with only 20% of the people.

helping. Every person who switches is an asset to the Democratic party and a liability to the repub party.

[Ilsa]

3. I'd praise them for having the change of heart and admitting

there was a mistake made. Then I'd point put that they are better people than the ones who led us into this mess because they are too arrogant to ever admit to a mistake.

But no one has ever brought it up with me.

[walldude]

4. I understand where you are coming from

and I too have pretty much written off anyone who even resembled supporting this war. But there are more wars on the horizon, the drums are already beating for Iran. The same exact drums that got us into Iraq. Today they claimed in 10 years Iran would have nukes. Yesterday I heard somewhere that it was 5 years. Soon it will be 2 years then a year, then it will be "we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud". Anyone who "won't get fooled again" deserves a second chance if it can save lives.

[jody]

6. Anyone who "won't get fooled again" deserves a second chance

:thumbsup:

[Kalish]

5. I do support them

[matcom]

7. why?

i really want to know

[Kalish]

11. want them to fall back into those waiting arms?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

13. Explain please?

[matcom]

14. didn't really answer my question

can you elaborate?

[Kalish]

15. you attract more flies with honey

[Kathy in Cambridge]

18. Ummm...very vague

get to the point, please.

[Kalish]

21. when you're ten feet under it's time to stop digging

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kalish]

30. glass houses and all

[Kathy in Cambridge]

32. no glass houses here

[Kalish]

34. when you're in the frying pan

no need to jump in the fire.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

47. Dead men tell no tales.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[acmejack]

22. To err is human.

We need them to realize, belatedly or not, that this war was a terrible mistake and leave the dark side. I understand your sentiments, but we are best served by forgiving past sins and accepting them and adding their strength to our own.

Every new convert to the antiwar cause is sorely needed. I realize I haven't presented a compelling reason for you to forgive the misguided ones, will you accept "because"?

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kalish]

82. I don't know what that means

[Lannes]

8. We dont have to throw a parade for them

and tell them how wonderful they are but I respect those who openly admit that it was a mistake and doesnt just keep it to him or herself.In a small way they are helping.

[Ladyhawk]

9. I feel that anyone who sees the light on the Iraq war should be welcome,

but since I play first-person shooters, my opinion on the Iraq War doesn't matter.

[jody]

17. Pardon this question from an older generation but, what do you mean

by "I play first-person shooters, my opinion on the Iraq War doesn't matter"?

[Ladyhawk]

27. I guess I'm still responding to last week's flame war.

I've been told that because I play video games, it is hypocritical of me to oppose the war in Iraq. :shrug:

[jody]

39. Thanks.

:hi:

[walldude]

29. I think Lady was being a bit sarcastic

and referring to the attack on Video Games that has been making the rounds lately. I guess you have to be a gamer to get it. I for one laughed when I saw her comment but I'm a degenerate gamer as well.

[Ladyhawk]

37. LOL...you aren't qualified to have an opinion, either!

Get thee hence! :D

[iconoclastic cat]

10. They can bite my ass, especially if they still vote Repub.

[NorCalDem]

12. If they have a good reason...

i.e. they lost a family member or friend in the war, they realize they were lied to, they see where the country is going, basically, if they are convinced that W is bad, I'll take them under my wing.

I wouldn't consider myself a liberal (or progressive) if I didn't.

[matcom]

16. my gut reaction is vastly different

(i'm VERY sorry to say) - that up front...

if they were FOR this and now REGRET it AND lost someone, i question their motivations EVEN MORE

yes, that is bad in a way but its the Chicken-Hawk factor for me. NOW you regret it?

:eyes:

[ninkasi]

86. Ok, you want honesty, so here goes...

Inwardly, I gloat that they were so stupid, and when they finally see the light...usually because it has somehow affected them in some way, I tell them I'm glad they saw the light, now don't waste your vote on Pukes anymore, we Dems have so much more to offer.

As far as forgive them? I feel that I should, but deep down inside I can't. If they were for this because of stupidity, I probably don't have a close friendship with them anyway; that's not being snobbish, it's just that we seldom have anything in common as the basis of a friendship.

If they are more intelligent, then no, I can't. I am a person of only average I.Q. If I could spot the lies, the evasions, the wrongness of it all, then they should have, too. They chose instead to give into feel-good nationalism, rather than true patriotism, and never gave a thought about the very real deaths that would be inflicted on both sides, or the very real destruction of a country which had nothing whatsoever to do with 9-11, but which has been made to pay the price.

I seem to feel that I should be able to forgive them, but can't. I do not, however, get in their faces and make them the enemy. I hope they vote for the Dems next time, but that doesn't mean I can forgive the pain they helped inflict up to now.

[peekaloo]

19. I am not a magnanimous person, I ridicule them.

I know people who gloated over the shock and awe bombing campaign.

They may suck on it HARD!

[GOPisEvil]

20. Well...keep in mind the endless stream of lies and disinformation that was

fed to the public ad nauseum during the run up to the invasion. Also consider that the average person who reads the front page of his newspaper and/or watches CNN thinks he is well-informed. That person was making an effort to educate themselves on a small level. It's not that person's fault they got fed bullshit. So, if a person tells me that at some point they started to see through the bullshit, did their own research and have come to be against the war, I'll respect that.

[AuntPatsy]

23. That's exactly how I feel. n/t

[GOPisEvil]

41. Judging by what I have read so far, there are two types of these people.

First is the swaggering frat-boy type. I doubt they're the ones who are doing most of the converting, but I could be wrong. If they were the t ype who didn't educate themselves in the least and just went with the program, then I'm less likely to be welcoming. I would probably tell them something along the lines of "Welcome to the party - those of us that actually read a book once in a while new."

The second type is the kind who at least attempted to educate themselves and has done more research and came to new conclusions as I mentioned above.

[OKDem08]

45. I agree, GOP=Evil

the MSM was a uniform voice parroting the WMD message in prelude to the invasion. Following evidence that WMD's did not exist & release of the Downing Street Memo, I can't believe that more people have not reversed their opinion, as I have. To the original poster, you can have animosity toward me but I think it would be a smarter position to accept rather than disparage me and others who have realized their error & changed their opinion accordingly.

[Midlodemocrat]

91. I agree with you, there GOPisEvil.

Most Americans are so poorly informed that I don't necessarily blame people who supported the run up to the war. I do however, blame people like this friend of mine who said and I quote " I think the military would be really good for ________(her son), but I can't allow it because there is a war on".

I went postal on her. I couldn't believe that she voted for the POS, swallowed his lies hook, line and sinker, but didn't have the courage of her convictions to allow her son to join the military.

I am re-evaluating my friendship with her.

[Tinoire]

24. Nope. Don't support them & don't want anything to do with them

They're either too dumb or too evil and the worst is, they're not even pretending to be ashamed. Just kind of a "whoops, made a wee little mistake in supporting this war". If they had really had a change of heart, they'd shut up in shame instead of constantly trying to FOIST their "wisdom" on other issues on the rest of us.

So no. Sorry. No use for them at all.

Tens of thousands DEAD. Tens of thousands maimed, widowed, orphaned, traumatized for life and the same fools that who supported this war not only don't have the decency to hang their heads in shame, but have the indecency, the unmitigated gall to insist that they, with their lmfao wisdom, be trusted to handle the party and the country.

No. Use. For. Them. At. All.


And they didn't have a change of heart. They're just embarrassed their evil has been exposed.

Whoa... Matcom. You really hit a sore spot with me there. I'm normally an extremely gentle and forgiving person but when it comes to this evil war, there is NO forgiveness in my heart.

Those who didn't know didn't want to know. There are many people in this world to whom I will never address another word again as long as I live because they choose to side with the Axis of Liars despite the world's warnings. No forgiveness. They can ask the Good Lord for forgiveness but none coming from me. And that applies to family, ex friends, ex lovers and especially politicians. I want nothing to do with anyone who supported this war.

There honest enough for you?

[Swamp Rat]

63. Amen Sister!!!

[The Gunslinger]

25. I have no problem with it

There were a lot of people who believed the hype. I fell for the Afganistan deal. I realized what was happening, and if anyone even a hard core righty wants to say that they just realized this war is wrong......I'm glad to hear it. And I've been hearing it from some pretty hard core republicans latley.

[Pobeka]

28. What is the outcome you desire?

This seems to be the fundamental question.

Do you (not you personally, all the you's out there) think having them vote progressive by welcoming them with understanding is worth it?

Or do you need to be able to say "I told you so" and more likely lose the vote.
--

Given it's votes that will change the world, I welcome them.

Lord knows I've made mistakes before, and I was more willing to correct them when I had another person kindly help me out, than when they called me a stupid idiot.

[matcom]

31. i don't "desire" shit

i personally have a problem with them. BIG TIME.

i wanted to know what other DUers thought.

I'm a Vet and have a HUGE problem with them.

but that is me. you are you. i'm all about education.

[Pobeka]

40. I have a HUGE problem with the sheeple who remain deluded.

I can see how being a vet gives you a completely different perspective on anybody who fell for this very transparent lie, and I respect that.

Me, personally, I'm gonna work to get the votes. All I know is if you give up first you lose. So I'll never give up hoping and trying to get the votes and minds back to reality and a brighter future.

[matcom]

43. i think you are a better person than I

and i salute you

thanks

[Pobeka]

46. This is for you matcom

:patriot:

[riverwalker]

33. hell no

I usually say things like "you know, people have died because of your intellectual laziness". Or, "over 1800 soldiers have died and unknown numbers of Iraqi's have been slaughtered, because you CONSCOUSLY CHOSE to remain ignorant believing you would not have to be responsible for what is done in your name". I give no slack. None.

[RagAss]

35. It was an ugly mob mentality. Bullying anone who questioned

the war. Outright calling some of us terrorist lovers or Saddam lovers just because we wanted more facts that connected Iraq to the people who attacked us. Now we know the truth. I have no time for these people. I have no use for their change of heart. I can see by the way all of the 'W' stickers came flying off their cars that they know the truth now but so what.

[Lannes]

36. If the ACLU can work with Bob Barr against the Patriot Act

We should be able to suck it up and let people who changed their minds about the war join our ranks if they want to help.

Sure they were wrong to support it but one more person on our side means one less on theirs.

We need all the help we can get dont we?

[matcom]

38. i'm not so sure

convince me. (and i'm serious)

[Lannes]

42. I tried to convince you so Ill answer your question with a question

How does increasing the ranks of people who want to put an end to this war hurt us?

[matcom]

48. it is the "forgiveness factor"

WE were so right and THEY were so wrong.

i watched a restaurant owner openly CHEER during "Shock & Awe" (was having lunch with DS1 at the time)

it disgusted me.

i wonder how SHE feels now.

i REALLY wonder if i give a fucking damn

i.think.not.

[Lannes]

52. I cant blame you for being angry I am too

But this isnt about forgiveness,its about changing policy.If there was a chance that getting some of those people working on our side ends up being the difference between success and failure dont you think its worth it?

Thats why I believe there are times to make temporary alliances like the ACLU did.It doesnt mean riding in tandem bikes together in the park.If it can help people,save lives,protect jobs,whatever is important to us I beleive we have to make that sacrifice.To me thats the real test.It has worked in the past,there are less opportunities now but it can work again.

[DS1]

94. We need to go back and rub her fucking face in it

someday

[jody]

44. Votes count and 50% + 1 elects candidates. If that's not self evident,

then nothing said here will change your mind.

[rockymountaindem]

49. I support them.

We're the party of deep thought and rational decisions. If someone is mature and honest enough to say "I was wrong, I admit it and I'm sorry", we should welcome that. The Republicans are the party of "blunder ahead with the same bad policy and admit nothing".

They called John Kerry a flip-flopper, while we defended him by saying that there's nothing wrong with changing your position as times change. It would be hypocritical of us to make statements like that in support of Kerry and then tell regretful former war supporters to kiss off.

[matcom]

50. all the dead

are they 'off the hook' because they were 'wrong'?

didn't "WE" TELL them the truth?

they didn't listen.

aren't the DEAD on THEIR hands?

(i'm asking, NOT necessarily "accusing")

[GOPisEvil]

51. What's wrong with saying the following:

"First I'm glad that you've come to seeing the truth. Do you think about the massive loss of life that could have been avoided had you and others like you not supported this illegal invasion to begin with?"

[matcom]

53. nothing at all

i just have a hard time NOT blaming THEM for the deaths

REALLY hard time

[GOPisEvil]

56. I can see that.

Whether I got to blaming would depend on that person's answer. If they told me they were genuinely conflicted by their decision, I might not let things get to the blame stage. If, on the other hand, they got all defensive, I'd know they really weren't serious about their stance or incapable of being a true progressive. THEN, we'd get to the blame - HEATED blame.

[rockymountaindem]

55. There's some truth to what you say.

I mean, it's not like all is forgiven, but better late than never is all I'm saying. If somebody is coming down to say "gee, I'm sorry", the farthest I'm willing to go is a guilt trip. I'm not going to tell them off. With a lot of people like that, anger from our side will only reinforce their previous position.

[Ladyhawk]

54. I used to feel like you, matcom, but if someone has the courage to

say, "I was wrong," I would welcome him / her.

I "woke up" before the invasion of Iraq, but just barely. I can remember saying that it was horrible that we have to do this. Then I started paying attention and realized there were no WMDs. I was protesting before the invasion.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

57. If they are willing to admit they were wrong

... that their opinions were based on lies and disinformation, I am willing to give them a chance.

I disagreed with their views and opinions when they were regurgitating the lies they had been fed. When they begin seeing the truth and listening, I try to be there for them and help them on their journey into reality.

Every person who emerges from the fog is a victory to me.

[GOPisEvil]

I think it's also important to point out the human costs of those prior

views and opinions. It's not my nature to be accusatory, but I might point out that thousands of people are dead now that shouldn't be. Not so much to accuse, but as food for thought. So maybe next time (and I'm positive there will be a next time) they won't be so quick to buy into the lies.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

60. I agree

These are issues that need to be brought to their attention. Death is permanent you can't take it back because you made a mistake. War is not something that you blindly support out of fear or a misplaced sense of patriotism. It's our responsibility to ask questions and demand answers.

When I know I'm reaching a person, that they are honestly listening and hearing what I'm saying, it's the best feeling in the world.

[porphyrian]

58. I'm glad they've come around...

...but they're still fucking responsible for their actions, and better be on the front line of reversing the damage they've caused if they want anything but ire from me.

[DistressedAmerican]

59. Admit Your Mistake And Do Nothing To Correct It, I Have No Use For You.

Admit your mistake and work against the war and you become my buddy overnight!

[sakabatou]

61. I scold them at first, then accept them

[greblc]

62. No....

Caviler attitudes to wards war by persons who have little or no personal investment is shameful.

[LittleClarkie]

64. I appreciated Charlie Reese and Buckley's change of heart

the more the merrier.

And sometimes it wasn't dumbness, so much as not exactly paying attention. Dumb in it's own right, but I was a sheeple too at one point.

[charlie]

72. Charlie Reese was never onboard

He'll be spared a crow luncheon.

[OneBlueSky]

65. of course I support them! . . . you have to remember that . . .

they were suckered by our beloved president into supporting a war that he assured them was absolutely necessary . . . most people want to believe in their president, particularly when it comes to matters of war and peace . . . they find it hard to believe that someone in that office would mislead the country into hostilities that would cost the lives of young Americans . . . and it has to be pretty devastating when they come to understand that they were indeed lied to, and that their president is a fraud . . .

I have compassion for these people, and I welcome them back into the fold of Americans who understand the the second part of that "my country, right or wrong" business . . .

my country, right or wrong . . . when it's right, keep it right . . . when it's wrong, set it right . . .

[OKDem08]

67. Thank you, OneBlueSky

I began questioning whether I should stick around at DU any longer after reading this post & some of the subsequent comments.

[seabeyond]

66. i am willing to embrace anyone admit to a mistake and adds to our

number. no one will be turned away from me. and they will be the loudest voice. i am sure their friends and family supported along with them. will give those friends and family pause to see a similar thinker change his view

yes i have use for them. i have a lot of use for them

not much into cut of nose to spite face

[Bouncy Ball]

70. It all depends.

Has it changed their voting behavior? Have their eyes really been opened by this?

If they HAVE changed their voting behavior and their eyes really have been opened, I welcome them with open arms.

If they realize the invasion was a mistake but keep on voting for the same motherfuckers who did this, too fucking bad.

[charlie]

75. Still

Regardless of how they cast their next vote, the ones who wouldn't consider arguments because they were busy bellowing about the Neville Chamberlain Fifth Column Commie Turncoats will get the hairy eyeball from me until the end of their days. They cost us all too dearly with their poison.

[Bouncy Ball]

77. Hell yes, me too.

This is something I will NEVER forget. Ever.

[DanCa]

71. I just faced this question today.

I got a call from an ex friend that I haven't spoken to since 2004 election. He used to insult me for being a pinko anti war commie. So why he called me I don't know. But our conversation went like this. He was all weepy and crying that his kid enlisted in the air force.

I said "Arent you pro war?
He said "Yeah but that's "my kid"

I said news flash liberals think of the troops as thier kids and dont want to see them hurt.The same feeling you have for your kid is the why we feel about them. He started blubbering like crazy and apologizing left and right.

Should I forgive him? You tell me.

[lildreamer316]

79. If you feel you can.

I'm glad he finally saw the human face on this horrible war. If you have children you know he is at his most vulnerable. However, it certainly doesn't excuse his lack of empathy/understanding up to this point.

The whole question posed by matcom is a personal thing; each person knows where their limits for forgiveness are. Some of us can, some of us are not ready to and may never be. I would love to see this broken down by parent/non-parent percentages. (NO SLAM to anyone; just curious to see if it makes any difference. I think in general liberals are more empathetic than others..)

Obviously he feels he needs your friendship & support; but the lesson for him may be that he won't get it because of his actions. Or maybe he will....

[barb162]

73. If their regret turns them to vote Democratic, then they have to be

supported. If their regret is based on we probably won't be getting Iraq's oil and how much the war is costing monetarily (versus the lives lost), they probably will stay Republican.

[Zorra]

74. Only the ones that have "Bu*h Sucks, Bring The Troops Home Now!"

tatooed on their foreheads.

[deadparrot]

76. I'd welcome them...

I don't feel particularly kind towards them, but I think the left sometimes feels the need to reject someone because they don't fit into their idea of ideological purity. Disagree on one issue, and you're out. That's been a big problem in the last few elections, I think.

If we only accept the people who agree with us 100%, we'll never win another elections. We may not like it, but we're going to have to court people who disagree with us on an issue (or several issues).

[sysoprock]

78. I fully supported this war at the beginning.

My mistake?

Trusting our elected government officals.

I watched Colin Powell give his little presentation to the UN and watched the nightly news and saw congress overwhemingly pass the war resolution and I went right along with it.

Many people did.

If that makes me dumb, then I suppose I'm dumb.

Change of heart? No, more like change of brain.

I saw how bad things are going over there, and saw how no weapons were found, and saw how the justification for going over there in the first place was false, and I changed my position.

Today, I argue almost everyday with people who hold the beliefs that I used to before I actually started paying attention.

Not everyone is born to progressive parents or with a membership to DU, some people need to discover things on their own.

If you look at *'s latest poll numbers, it seems as if theres a whole lot of discovery going on right now.

[lildreamer316]

80. Congrats; and

welcome (a little late). I am glad you have been able to see clearly.
A point you made that is very important for us here to remember: "Not everyone is born to progressive parents or with a membership to DU, some people need to discover things on their own."

Usually discovering things on your own are the most powerful lessons we learn in life. That fact will definately make "converts" such as yourself all the more passionate and active.

Good to have you!

[Tinoire]

83. Sigh.

Put people like me in our place again. I hope you can understand the frustration though. War is wrong. How could people not see through the blood-thirsty frenzy Bush, Blair and Sharon were whipping everyone into? How could they not especially when tons of us took to the streets protesting?

But sigh, you're right, not everyone is born to Progressive parents. The first lesson my mother ever taught me was that they're all lying heathens and I thank her for that lesson.

I know that what makes me the angriest is that we warned people. And we didn't warn them with cute little slogans like "make love not war"; we handed out very in-depth flyers with sourced data, created multimedia presentations that were all over the internet and progressive sites mushroomed overnight sounding the alarm. Whatreallyhappened and antiwar.com were up front and center with daily coverage of the lies & deception.

Our educational system is totally broken. I say this with no malice to my fellow Americans but I've lived in many countries and never, never have I seen a general population so... ignorant. So ignorant and incapable of independent thought that it's PAINFUL. And so trusting of some of the slimiest lizards who ever crawled out from under a rock to collect congressional paychecks. Taxed beyond belief with no healthcare or post-secondary education (and rotten primary/secondary education at that) and we breath not a word about the lack of representation. We go like sheep to the polls (those of us who still cherish illusions that we influence the process), pull a loyalty lever and go back to sleep for 4 more years if our guy won without realizing that eternal vigilance is required for their "good cop/bad cop" play.

So yeah, I'm angry. Rotten angry. Rotten ashamed to be assocuiated with New Nazis on BOTH sides of the aisle. Who do people like me take that anger out on? Bush? That's too damn simple- Bush isn't the problem, he's just a mediocre expression of the sick problem.

But you know what. I'm going to, because of your post, work on forgiveness for a select few who have the awareness to realize what a mistake they made. With no bitterness, I hope it's a painful lesson to everyone who supported it so that they NEVER FORGET. Just as we made sure the Germans never forget what they did (and oh boy are they ever on their toes), we need to do the same in this country.

So ok, I'll forgive but only true remorse. True head-holding over the grief of "what have we done". Those who say "whoops oh well, wasn't our fault, Saddaam had it coming anyway, we could be waging this war better, etc" well they will never have any forgiveness from me. Can't because I go to sleep with the faces of the innocent dead on my heart & mind everynight after having tried to stop it while the majority of those who have know grown lukewarm to this great patriotic war want to end the story with a whoops and never again think of all the misery they cause in this world.

But to you, I have to ask, never mind the WMDs because that's a pathethic pretext for invasion by 3 nations possessing some of the deadliest WMDs ever seen on this planet... When is it worth it to kill? To send in an entire war machine? How many "maybe X lives will be saved" are worth "we're going to slaughter y lives to save those x that maybe could be hurt?"

Ghandi said that there wasn't a single, not a single justification for EVER EVER taking a human life. How dare we destroy what we can't create? Patriotism bleh, the old rally everyone around the flag by convincing us that our safety is in danger and that since our lives are worth more than the other guys, we must go stomp him out.

Well welcome to the aware club. I'd rather have you on board than not, and better late than never.

[charlie]

84. Hah

My parents are two of the most reactionary gits you'll ever meet. I've got a brother who's a bellowing ape. If it weren't for my two sane sisters, I'd have no one in my family to talk to. Being raised in a non-progressive household is no impediment to having the sanity to want compelling, no-bullshit reasons before joining the frenzied herd squalling for WAR.

[Tsiyu]

81. "People who are perfect: Do you support them?"

Well, whatever your aim, I believe many were lied to, many didn't have the luxury of spending their time researching the war and wanted to believe their government.

I never wanted the war with Iraq, but when my son was going ( and was lied to as well) he - at that time- believed the lies, too. At the time I said to the air, "Asshole(*)- you'd better not be sending my kid over there for nothing." It was the last thing I wanted - this war - but I did not protest it as I do now because I was sending my flesh and blood over to Iraq. It was like being held hostage in a way.

So fucking crucify me for that, but I've protested plenty since then, even if I was not protesting at the war's outset.

I welcome anyone who has a change of heart. Over time, I have come to see that the hatred I feel for Repukes is not going to get my country back. If they feel betrayed, angry, fooled, then good for them. I accept their contrition as I accept my own.

What I DO NOT support are those who can't move past their self-righteousness. My brother tried to get me to see how wrong the war was - he's the one who later chastised me for ripping into some Repukes we know. "Every disgruntled Republican is a future Democrat," he said. Oh, I am still angry with many folks, but seeing how easily I was duped, I can't fault others who were duped the same way.

And I'm glad there are Dems like my brother out there who are busy trying to enlighten and educate rather than turn away people who were wrong in the past. We need every warm body and every vote. Even from the imperfect.

And matcom, just be so glad that YOU are a perfect Democrat in every way so you never have to feel the shame of being an imperfect one.

[NeoTraitors]

85. Hopefully this will help...

I was wrong. I was fooled by lies, distortions, and misinformation.
I wasn't paying enough attention.

Basically, the President of my country told me that these bad people were going to blow us all up. I fucked up by believing him. Perhaps I expected the Dems in congress to be better informed than myself on this issue and trusted their judgement, I don't know.

What I do know however, is that ever since I learned that the war was based on lies, I have become politically active and made sure to keep myself informed. In my mind, every patriotic American should've done the same. If they had, maybe the criminals in charge now would be behind bars where they belong.

If I played even a tiny role in not stopping the war at its start, I am sorry. But the only thing I can do to make up for it is join with DU and others in trying to stop it. If people want to hate me that is fine, but hopefully you won't mind my help in trying to right what is wrong. We don't have to like each other, we just have to save our country from fascism.

[TreasonousBastard]

87. What do you mean by "support"?

Part of me agrees that anyone dumb enough to support the war in the first place is a a hopeless cause, but that's a part I'm not proud of.

We went through this with Viet Nam. It wasn't just a bunch of hippies complaining, but the sober voices against the war were drowned out by the calls to the flag and to war. I still don't understand just how a nation can be so easily drawn to the horror of war, but perhaps in our case it's partly because we haven't seen the effects of war on our soil for 150 years. The French, on the other hand, after a history of empire and Napolean, saw their country destroyed by war twice in the last century, and have little taste for it any more.

But, I digress... The simple fact reamins that it is easy to call for a war, particularly if those you call on don't have to fight it or pay for it. The propaganda machine told us that Hussein was responsible for the twin towers going down, and was planning even more horrific acts. Even if they didn't actually say that, they gave the impression, and pandered to the fear and loathing of 9/11.

Our tiny voices in our email lists and blogs were no match for the propaganda machine, and while I do fault those who supported the war for being almost willfully ignorant, I have to admit that it wasn't easy even for us to get the facts. Our side is often as flaky with the truth as theirs is, and for someone in the middle to try to sort it out for themselves is asking a lot.

Yes, we can and do blame the media for being willing accomplices in the runup to war, and that again allows for some slack for those who took the war side.

So, what do I think of them now that they have seen the light? I think that we have little choice but to welcome them. Even if they came to the right conclusion late, they still came to the right conclusion.

In both religion and politics we honor and welcome the converts. The converts are the ones who did not simply accept the teachings they were brought up with, but made a conscious decision.

As a Quaker and a pacifist, I see many who never faced the draft and who lived their entire lives as pacifists. They, and others on the left, can drink the Kool-Aid as well as those on the right who see war as a handy tool. Some of our most effective members, though, are those who learned first hand of war in Viet Nam or Gulf I, or who gradually had their beliefs evolve over the years. George Fox, the founder of the Quakers, preached absolute peace and nonviolence, and found the barracks to be fertile grounds for recruiting. The soldiers never knew there was an alternative to war until they met him.

So, yeah, if someone comes to me and says he was wrong about the war, I won't gloat and I won't call him an idiot for supporting it in the past. I will thank him for his consideration and clear thinking.

It is the present and the future that counts.

[Tsiyu]

89. Good response

The most significant question the OP made me ask was "Is your forgiveness or nonforgiveness really the issue? Are YOU so important that anyone gives a shit whether or not you have any use for them?"

This struggle isn't about any one DUer. This war is too evil and insidious to give a shit about anybody's "feelings," that's for sure. My self-importance won't end it, but if I can talk openly and honestly with anyone and everyone who opposes it - even if they supported it at first - we as a GROUP have a better chance to end it.

If my self-righteousness delays that effort, I'm actually helping the war continue. But hey, at least I feel important to myself! And better than everyone else to boot.

I suppose that feeling of superiority is mucho important to some.

[Solly Mack]

88. The urge to slap them is great

[SheepyMcSheepster]

90. dumb and trusting are two different things

the citizens of the united states were flat out lied to.
many had blind faith in their leaders, they may have learned their lesson now.

as our fearless misunderstimator once said: "fool me once shame on you, fool me....uh um....can't get fooled again!"

so i don't think they are dumb, but rather ignorant, they have the capacity to understand what is going on, they just weren't paying attention at the time. i can forgive them as long as they sit up and keep paying attention from here on out.

the real dumbasses are the ones that still believe this administration tells the truth or doesn't care if they tell the truth.

i gladly accept anyone who is willing to realise they got chumped by the chimp. the more the merrier.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

92. yes, they acted in a climate of lies and manufactured fear

We can't help it we critically saw through the fog when they couldn't. Lots of people were used and abused to make the war possible--troops, the general public, even the goofyass dumb-Fs in MSM.

[Solomon]

93. What really pisses me off is that the same people who admit they were

wrong will go back out and vote the fuckers back into office again.

It sickens me.

[Coventina]

95. You can say that again. My dad is a prime example

He was actually against the Iraq war from the beginning.

But voted for Bush in 2004 because voting for a Democrat is UNTHINKABLE for him.

:eyes:

[Pithlet]

96. I do support them.

A core progressive value is the belief that people can grow and change and learn from their mistakes. If someone is genuinely remorseful and wants to work with us to end this damn war, then I will welcome them with open arms. As long as they really are remorseful and are with us, and not "I was wrong. Oh, well."

[KansDem]

97. Once again, a very thought-provoking thread

But I have to say "F*ck 'em, they were warned" If the American populace is poorly informed, it's because they want to be. Americans are self-absorbed and lazy when it comes to learning about far-reaching events. This was readily apparent during the election of 1994 when "I'm ignorant and proud of it" ruled the day and Newt was able to take Congress. As for the present situation? How many times have you heard Gore was "too intellectual" and Bush was "an average guy who you'd like to have a beer with." How many times did we hear Kerry was "too elitist, not a regular guy?" The American populace could have researched the arguments leading up to the invasion, but they chose not to. There are other sources for news beyond FOX and CNN. That's how I gleaned information and news: from the Internet and "alternative news sources." It takes a little extra effort, but well worth it!

But, Matcom, I must say: How many of us SCREAMED that Saddam and bin Laden were two different people? How many of us SCREAMED that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11? How many of us SCREAMED that invading Iraq was the wrong thin to do? How many of us SCREAMED that Iraq had no WsMD? How many? How many? Millions and millions and millions, both in this country and around the world. And we were ignored.

I would suggest that anyone interested in this thread topic might also want to look at this one posted by DistressedAmerican yesterday, titled "The Bush Years Have Changed My Life. How Has Bushco. Impacted You?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4254919&mesg_id=4255015

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

98. I'm late to the party, but my answer is NO

Some will excuse them by saying "oh, they didn't know, they were ill-informed, they only heard the news reports of insane hussein's WMD's & believed it".

Well, bullshit! We were going to war. People would die. It was their job to learn as much as possible. Anyone, & I mean anyone could have found alternative news sources that were telling a different story.

During the '02 midterms, there was a story in the paper. They quoted some ass in Colorado who said he hated the idea of the coming war with Iraq & wanted Democratic senators to slow dumbya down. But, when it came time to vote he voted for the repug. He decided it wasn't his job to try to elect Dems. I guess it isn't his job to fight the war. It isn't his job to provide checks & balances. Fuck him & the horse he rode in on.

best.

Matcom, this rant is not directed at you, or at any one who can accept those who've had a change of heart.

best again

[Kraklen]

99. Fuck 'em.

They shat in their own nest.

No sympathy for the devil.