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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:01 PM
Original message
Video games under threat
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/20/20592...

ERSB may lose credibility. If that happens, Hilary Clinton will be happy since she can now propose a bill to regulate video games. Great time to be a gamer. :sarcasm:

Anyone up to get games before they are banned? I'm an alarmist here but it could happen.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. nothing would upset the status quo more
than taking away the opiates of the masses.

The ruling class isn't about to do that.

Video games, movies, television...these are the things that are placating a nation of hungry, restless, angry, economic slaves.

These attacks are merely additional fronts in the cultural war. Distractions for the fringe elements, and nothing more.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. "a nation of hungry, restless, angry, economic slaves"
Wow, what a dismal, albeit correct, description.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. thanks
I think. :eyes:

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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
86. That describes me to a T!!
How did y'all know?
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ConfuZed Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. I cannot stand the Bush's and Clinton's (except chelsea and roger) n/t
People like hillary,bill and george will not rest into they get their draconian agenda forced down the american people throats.
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. really you shouldn't put those names in the same sentence.
nt
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. My 11 year old grandson came for a visit
and he had a version of Grand Theft Auto something or other.
IMHO< anyone who wants to play and watch this crap should be above an age set by community standards.
And if young adults are playing this crap we are in deeper trouble then we can imagine.
I am not at all interested in banning any form of entertainment or even anti-gun. I grew up playing War with real BB guns.
I still can not help but to be anything but repulsed by the images that are being thought of as entertaining in some video games.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I don't blame you
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 05:17 PM by fujiyama
for being upset that your 11 year old grandson is playing that game. It's completely inappropriate for his age - that's why it has the equivalent of an R rating (M 17+) and no responsible store would sell such a game to a minor. Not to offend you, but where the hell were his parents when he got that game? Don't they pay attention to what he plays? When I was young I wanted to rent a violent video game (Mortal Kombat). My dad said "no", end of discussion. I grumbled a little and that was that. Granted, I still played the game at friends' homes, but either way I knew the difference between reality and make believe.

Don't worry about those that are old enough that play these games. I have several friends (none of them violent in any way - and they voted for Kerry) that play these games. They're just a way to blow off steam like watching a bad Arnold movie or something.


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ConfuZed Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Would you show your children videos of people being beheaded?
NO!

Its up to the parent to control what his/her child sees if they can't do that they have failed and its no one Else's fault.

Would you like it if some right-winger had this website shutdown because he/she though that it might "corrupt" their child because of our stance on several social issues like Religion,Gay Rights and Abortion?

NO!


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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I agree with you totally
I still hold the opinion that anyone who enjoys these games needs to question their morality.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. LOL
Question their morality? Over a grouping of pixals? Please. If someone can't separate fantasy from reality, they need help. Digital violence and real violence are 2 things. I killed about 50 people each time I played GTA but I have yet to harm one person in reality. Deal with it.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. For the record I have met
kids (11 and 12 year olds) who do have a problem distinghishing between reality and a paper character or Pixels... in fact once I got parents involved. It is all in its own a very funny story.

You may not have that problem but I fear you are also an adult

Child development tidbit, kids do have a problem distinguising between fantasy and reality and this mostly is gone by the time they reach 10 to 11 years old... and for the reord I will not allow a young kid to play any RPG at my table until they are mature enough, or should be.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yeah
I knew fantasy from reality at an early age. Kids, if raised properly and not having mental illness, will also separate reality from fantasy. Considering how parents want others to raise their kids, the kids will never be able to know reality and confuse a simple game of D&D or hero System with real violence and kill another player over a die roll. The blame is on the parents. Don't expect the gov to baby sit your kids and the world too. Do your job and raise your kids.

Your afriad I'm an adult? What makes you think I ever grew up?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. so you were ahead of the curve
good for you...

But there are some kids who still think this is real (game )... and the blame is on the parents, so what is your point?

I am not expecting the governemtn to baby seat the kids, but if stores will sell GTA to a teen, who is UNDER AGE never mind there is an M clearly on the label, then we need to card kids, just like we do for cigarrettes and alcohol
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. OK
Ahead of the curve? Wasn't me, it was my parents.

Also, if they card people for video games, what would stop a parent from buying the game for a kid? Nothing. I tricked my dad into buying Andrew "Dice" Clay CDs for me as a teen.

I do blame the parents because they don't want to raise kids anymore. It's all about carding people, banning this and that, removing certain content. TV is a great example. With TV ratings, V-chip, TVs that can block channels plus cable boxes that can block channels and shows based on ratings yet parents want the gov to do more since changing settings is too hard.

I heard that families use something called "family hour". The family gets together, does something, and scatter to the 4 winds. Why not integrate everyone into activities? Like racing, take the kids to see SCCA. If the kids like video games, rent multi-players games and play with the kids (I always beat my dad at most of those except golf games). I know working class families that do that and their kids are fine. Hell, even car maintenance is a family activity. I'm single yet that is what I see great families doing.

there are some kids who still think this is real (game )
Those kids need help. In Japan, kids are taught that ost things on YV, films, etc are fantasy. We don't do that here. Yes, Barney the Crackhead Dino is real. Ain't that cute? Time to get parents, kids, and families back to reality. No one, other than the parents, have a right to raise a kid. Gov can't do it and if they do, imagine how many more Republicans there will be.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Agreed those kids need help
and yes I would not mind having parents far more involved... that said... we will have to start carding people, becuase parents are not doing it...

This is not about Republcians or Democrats, by the way... sooner or later we will pay a huge price for parents not being involved, but you want to see the huge problem? Parents don't have the enerny, two jobs, and at times three and four jobs leaves no time for many parents... so this is a societal problem created by those in charge... so go ahead blame the V Chip and lack of time by parents to spend with chidren...

this is FAR MORE COMPLEX than just carding... and I see carding as a very short term solution... we need fundamental changes in the way our society works so parents can now spend more time with kids...
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. I agree
But I noticed this for awhile. Even in my middle class hood, parents bitch about how hard their 9 to 5 jobs are and let their kids jump in front of cars (like mine). While economics is a big part of it, it is still the parents duty to raise kids. If they are so concerned about what kids are being exposed to, why not worry about their own kids before they complain about other kids?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #36
54. Another of societies ills
nobody wants to take responsibitly no more. Today we went to the bookstore and of all places I saw an article on Fortune that is worth readhying. Even Fortune is now opining on what is wrong (lack of education amonmg other things adn the lack of value we place these days on education).

Why do I bring this up? I think the pendulum is swinging... becuase the powers that be are finally seeing the result on what is going on right now.... why did we go to the bookstore? the heat wave.
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. yeah and all that nudity in the sistine chapel too
man, we got some work to do.

;)
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_testify_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. are you kidding?
http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myth...

read up on this first, then have a look at the kind of violence present in japanese video games.

Then tell me how videogames lead to a murder rate of 9.4/100k here, and only 1.4/100k there.


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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #26
48. THANK you.
Some sanity.

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dissent1977 Donating Member (795 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
91. Yes, I think if Americans saw the violent media coming out of Japan...
they would be appalled. Japanese media has long been more violent than American media, but there crime rate is much lower. That is not saying that violent media has no effect on people, but it is saying that there is a whole lot more to it than that. Why aren't people screaming at the Pentagon, which actually tells people they are heroes if they kill on command and do not ask questions. No instead we have to blame GTA, a video game. It makes absolutely no sense.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. graphic violence and crime == R rating; explicit sex == X rating
I still hold the opinion that these "community standards" are way out of line and anyone who agrees that sex merits greater age restrictions than bloodshed needs to question their morality.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. My stepfather used to tell us
that he thought someone cutting off someone else's head in a movie was far worse than naked bodies or two people making love (his words). He said neither are appropriate for children, but in his view, the violence was far worse.

So yeah, I see your point totally. It does seem rather odd that a kid in America is far more likely to see a horribly bloody and brutal violent scene on TV than a pair of boobs or someone's ass.

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dissent1977 Donating Member (795 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
90. Have you ever played GTA?
It is no doubt one of the most immersive gaming worlds ever created. Yes it is violent and very vulgar, but there is so much more to it than that. I don't like it for the violence, but I do like being able to pick up any vehicle on the street and taking it for a ride. GTA is one of the best games ever made, and if you read the reviews you will see that most critics agree with me. It is no different than watching an R rated movie, and if you think everyone who watches an R rated movie should question their morality fine but you should be consistant with it. I am a pacifist, I absolutely abhor violence but I recognize that GTA is a complete parody of violence. Yes the game is actually quite humorous, it is black humor yes but I don't know how anyone could play it without cracking a smile. It is poking fun at our society, not trying to turn people into violent hoodlums.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Didn't you teach your kids
how to protect their children from such things?

This is 100% a parenting issue. Truly.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ok let me put my game designer hat on
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 05:24 PM by nadinbrzezinski
yes I do wear one

Look as much as I love games, there are some that push teh envelope and then some (GTA comes to mind). Look at the premise of the game... kill cops and steal cars.

Now if yuo are OVER 18 go ahead and get the game and enjoy it, but this is an ADULT themed game and if stores (yes even Game Stop) sell this piece of crap to kids theere is a problem... so if the game companies cannot control the content... well somebody will have to do it

Will they ban games? No... the opiate effects they provide is just oh too gerat and now it is even used as a recruitment tool by the US Military... but as a game designer the game companies are also partly to blame.

Will they try to limit what is produced? Yes absolutely, but some of this should be done at the company level... or those games should be extremely well marked as adult content.

Oh and of course parents are also responsible, but... this is a multi pronged problem... and it does cover the designers as well... for the record GTA is not present at this household, I mostly do Paper and pencil, which can also be quite violent... but I also always encourage paents to make sure what I produce is something their kids will be allowed to read and enjoy,

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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. given up hope
Fortunately my primary interests are unlikely targets for censorship (and incomprehensible to censors and 99.99% of the general public anyway).
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. I am for this. Why not label and keep sexual games away from kids
till they are 18. I mean little guys are really, really "re-wired" by their first sexual experiences - much more so than little girls. We know this? So keep em away from harsh examples of sex until they are 18 (and hopefully old pros - even if they've never dated). You know - treat a person's sexuality with kids gloves until they really truly are adults. It just makes sense. Of course video companies are going to add cartoon porn into their games - to sell more. That doesn't mean we have to put up with it or not regulate it.

For the sexual health of the little guys.

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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. they ARE labelled.
Parents need to take responsibility for what their children are exposed to.

I have. It can be done.

Any parent who doesn't know that GTA should be kept out of the hands of their children has problems bigger than video games.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Yes you are correct
problem is... we've seen it, Game Stop sometimes sells the game to little Harry or Suzie so they can make their sales quota... hence why I say this is also about at times the industry.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. It needs enforcement and not banning
As a grown adult who can seperate reality from fantasy I have a right to blow crap up on my playstation or PC. I am not a violent person in reality and am actually a bit of a pacifict. I have no desire to go out and commit any attrocity because there is no enforcement on video game sales and rentals.

I have no problem with enforcing the rules, but an banning or limitations brings out the teed off Larry Flint in me.

This kind of crap made me dislike Tipper Gore. Attempting to ban something no matter how vile is a job for RWers and not open minded people
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. that is why we need laws
to card people to make sure they are old enouhg to buy this stuff

Now if the older brother buys it for younger kid, well there is truly nothing I can do about it, but I can require the store to card the kids and make sure they are old enough.

M requires 17 as an age, how many kids that age have a drivers licence? So that should NOT be a problem

Now if parents don't care and uncle buys it oh well, that is their responsibilty.

The industry could take a lot of the ammo away from these people who want to censor this by just carding kids, just like teh Tobacco industry does... this is bow you take the wind out of them sails

For the record, there are times I am amazed that simple solutions like this one are resisted but hey... what can I say?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. The words in songs are just not as powerful to little 13 year old guys
as any visual. If you want kids to be "programmed" at thirteen by what a corporation things will sell to adults - go ahead. But I think it should be regulated the same as any vice. Get the pornography out of the games - or face a rating and illegality for it to be sold to kids.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
46. yes, you're right
I would support penalties against stores selling to underage players just as with any other product regulated by age.

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
38. So are cigarettes. But do you want a 16 year old to deciding to be a
life-long smoker? Or do you want a 19 year old to be making that decision about what addictions they take on?
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. anyone selling cigs to 16 year olds
can and should be prosecuted.

Cigarettes cause cancer, btw. Video games cause...uh...nothing. Nothing. Absolutely nothing has been proven to come from excessive game playing except maybe eyestrain.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
49. THANK YOU!
You got it exactly right.

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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. News flash
Most video games are made for adults since they tend to buy and play them more than anyother age group. Deal.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Great! Regulate them for adults. Same as videos or alcohol or smokes or
driving a car.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Why?
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 07:53 PM by Tux
So parents won't have to raise their kids? Gov does regulate the age of driving etc but Ms. Clinton will try to censor them. Seems small for video games but imagine liberal writers whose books maybe banned since they aren't supporting Bush's wars. Or harry Potter considered a terrorist and all books now banned. Or films must be cleaned of anything anti-Bush or anti-neocon. Or.....on it goes. If they get their way, things can get worse real fast. If parents still complain, shut up. Raise your kids so the rest of us can go back to reality.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. So kids cannot get around their parents. And go and get addicted
to games with a little porn tucked in. Same as with smokes. Owning these games will be rare for a 13 year old - because they will have to rely on a 21 year old to buy them.

Why should a little 13 year old have his life messed up by imprinting on rough - impersonal sex when his body would tell him to do otherwise. If he was aloud to grow up normally and be left alone.

Nobody is saying to ban the games. Just get industries to acknowledge there is a difference between a kid who has no sexual history and is very vulnerable to all his first experiences...and an adult who may get addicted or not - but it will be of his own free will as an adult he has the maturity to say: this goes too far.

A little guy likely would have no way of saying: "this isn't me". Same as dating an adult. We don't assume by law that kids have the maturity or the experience to decide on sexual things and their own sexual health in reality. Why would we sell them fantasies - unregulated - when we don't allow them to date adults.

This is really not a big issue. Just logical. Treat kids like kids. Let them be influenced by their natural and child like environment. And then when they hit 18 - kick em out into the cruel world.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Yet
What about the adults that buy and play the games that make money for the video game industry? Video games aren't for kid's only. True in the past but no longer. If the parents want kids to play kid's games, get them. Don't get them M rated games. ERSB has a rating system for a reason. Parents are usually too ignorant to even know what the ratings are and won't ask for them. I seen parents buy Doom 3, GTA, Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball, and others for kids when none are made for kids.

Of course, the same argument you mentioned can go for everything. Why not make everything so 5 year olds won't get upset and make everyone else brain dead? Why not have parents actually raise their kids for once and monitor their activities instead of wanting to ruin what little entertainment their is left and not influenced by neocons?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Nobody is saying that. Just regulate the dam things heavily and make
Edited on Thu Jul-21-05 12:17 AM by applegrove
people show ID to get them.

Why should we not protect kids or young teens from influences that can change their lives. The studies are in. Visual stimuli is very, very marking to a young lad who is having his first sexual experiences. That is just a fact.

So sex in the middle of violence or a predatory game is not a good thing or a neutral thing for young teens. It is a very bad thing. It teaches them how to be in their sexuality.

We know this. So we should apply law to it. Same as addictive drugs.

Since when have Liberals been against the application of good science to good regulations.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Sheesh
Good science? On video games? I read loads of those studies and they fail to address even the most basic methological issues. No real baseline for aggression, they NEVER check for past agression through police/school records, they use surveys on people's favorite games then spin it as though Tetris is violent, they overgeneralize all their "findings", if they keep track of how much people play games they usually will fail to mention that a variety of games tend to be played, focus only on violent games and never anything else, during the shocks subjects give to each other to test agression they never match people who are similiar (male to male for example), never change a game's settings or make a game that lacks some elements like audio, many focus on older games that always made the headlines, all the games covered have an M rating, and the subjects are mostly college students. If that is good science, I'm a Bush supporter.

Why card people for another purchase? I can see alcohol, tobacco, and porn but video games? Please, enter reality. If parents would do their duty and raise kids properly, we wouldn't have this as an issue.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. The problem is not in the addiction of the games. But in the aggression
& predatory visualization of sex in the middle of cops and robbers. Now when did that ever happen in the 1970s? It forms the male brain. And the kid's sexuality moves on out from that seed.

I don't know about video games. I am not concerned about addiction with kids - so much as predators being created because little guys are so vulnerable. Why would you want their minds to be "blown" into being sexual beings with it attached to hunting and shooting and some bimbo in the middle of some hunt?

Please - there are enough sadists out there without us ignoring the very real issues involved in a young boy's first sexual experiences. Why would you want to create new ones out of a pretty normal lad?

Unless you were Ghengus Khan?

So forget the parenting issues and the addiction issues and look at the medical reality.

I mean - if grown adult men can be turned into pedophiles by child porn... don't you think we should regulate against the private & natural time in a boys life becoming open fodder for some corporation wanting to sell addictions to adults?



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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. Dang
Addiction? I never mentioned addiction, now did I?

What is with your obsession with a child's sexual feelings?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. This is like talking to the NRA. Be honest? Are you a representative
Edited on Thu Jul-21-05 01:14 AM by applegrove
of the video industry? I'm making a medical point.

I know that the video industry is a long-looking as the pharmaceutical industry. And just like the Pharmaceuticals see nationalized health care as a threat to their monopolies - as national health care models are much better and preventive medicine - ergo fewer long term drugs needed if issues are dealt with when people face them in a timely manner.

So it seems the video industry is concerned with addicting kids not just to games - but to sex - so I guess when they are adults and have the real bucks they will still be customers.

No need to use a freeper tool and "stereotype me" in an attempt to shut me up. You either can stand on your arguments or not. You seem to want to talk about "parents" or "private enterprise". What about the health issue? The sexual health of the child/teen.

Try and answer that without resorting to calling me names like "neocon" or "interested in the sex lives of children". Those are obfuscation tools of the average sociopath. And I never fall for it.

Answer the question. Should we protect the sexual health of our children and allow them to be children - or not? When it it okay to put them in an adult world with their sexuality? (in this case at the hands of the marketers of particular video games who add cartoon sex acts into the game of killing or "hunting"). At what age? Exactly. Give me a number.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. I'll be honest,
Edited on Thu Jul-21-05 01:37 AM by nadinbrzezinski
there are some studies that reflect the results, there are others that have not been able to replicate this.

First I am a game designer, (paper and pencil)

Second, I agree with you, some of this should be kept away from kids... mostly they are not mature enough

Third, parents do play a critical role

Fourth, industry is unable to self regulate itself

Firth, I have had these discussions with many a designer, and war is fun, as well as sex an violence... (I write a war game setting, and for the record I am breaking a trend, my characters are at times going through hell because you know what war is hell!)

sixth, until all the data is in you will not be able to convince some folks, and even when the data is in you will not be able to convince some folks, after all smoking is not dangerous, didn't you know that?

Seventh, most gaming is NOT addictive, I repeat most gaming is NOT addictive. but people with addictive disorders will get addicted to things like alcohol, drugs or games... they are the minority.

Eight, believe it or not the main market for all of this is 12-25 year old middle class males

Watch if you can the marketing of cool, a front line special.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. Fourth the Industry is unable to regulate itself? MY ASS! They just
follow the regulations & laws & banning or targeting 12 year olds with live cartoon sex acts - or they go to jail or pay huge fines. Works excellent with smoke shops and harsh penalties. In Canada store owners will look at you and if you look anywhere near under 30 - they will ID you. And they all followed suit. What caused this behavior? Stiff fines and 21 year olds who didn't get IDed running around randomly and hitting all smoke shops at least a few times with the question "can I have a pack of smokes".

They just changed the law to say - "you must ID anyone who looks under 25".

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. I have seen kids here walk away from stores
wtih non age apropriate material... I know Canada does a far beter job, but here, it is just a game you know...

I sswear there are days...
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #57
66. how about some evidence?
What evidence are you basing all of this on?

I have no idea what you and the other poster were going on about with the freeper and neocon and stereotyping, so I'm not talking about any of that. What I am asking for is any evidence you might have to back up your assertions about video games and addiction to either games or sex.

Do you have any actual evidence at all? Links would be nice.


P.S. you are aware, aren't you, that there is a wide variety of games in the video game idustry and that the first person shooters are a popular type, but certainly not the ONLY kind of video game on the market? It sounds from your post as though you're painting all video games with one stereotypically broad brush.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. No - Hillary was very specific. Predatory games with sex thrown in
need to be regulated.

Less for the addiction to the game than the messing with the first sexual experiences of little guys and packaging it in inappropriate ways. Why even sneaking into a store and stealing a playboy - as I have witnessed is not a serious matter. At least Playboy gets the "parts" in all the right places. Even though it is all airbrushed and posed.

Teaching a kid that killing and hunting and adrenaline and live sex acts all go together is really messing with the order & "parts" of sexuality that each kid must go through. Imagine what sorry lives kids who learn this and have it imprinted on them lead? We all know how impossible it is to 'unlearn' pedophiles. Why would anyone who thinks allow game designers to teach this bullshit to millions of kids so that the industry can make money.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. imagine is the key word
Because there is no evidence that "messing with the order and parts of sexuality" leads to anything.

Pedophilia has nothing to do with this debate.

And I have NO problem with enforcing a rating system as long as that does NOT censor products from adults. What I asked for was evidence to back up the "frothing at the mouth" hysteria in the post I responded to.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. So no censoring of products for adults - even when they are aimed
at creating addiction (the food industry does it too) for gamers between the ages of 12 to 25.

Or are you saying that adult games should be severely separated from games kids would enjoy?
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. huh?
I'm not sure what you mean by the subject line/first sentence, so I'll skip ahead to your last question...

"Or are you saying that adult games should be severely separated fromgames kids would enjoy?"

I think games with adult content should be available for sale to adults. I think ratings that make sense should be provided and enforced. Retailers and game producers who violate (or attempt an end run around) the ratings system should be penalized.

As far as I am concerned, penalties for violating the ratings system could include criminal charges (like for selling alcohol or cigs to minors). That would be fine with me.

In the end, however, the bulk of the responsibility remains with the parents. I parent my gamer geek children. If I can do it, so can everyone else.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. And by ratings - you mean that there should be no live sex acts or
violence against women in the middle of a "hunt & kill" game. That those cartoon representations should be only in games that appeal to adults and not in games that would appeal to 12 to 25 year olds?

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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Game ratings should mimic...
...movie rating standards I think, because a lot of Americans are incapable or unwilling to take the time to learn anything new.

You seem really hung up on the violence against women in the middle of a hunt & kill game. Is violence against women ok with you in a different kind of game?

Also, about the 12-25 year old group you keep referring to...that's too wide of a range. Adulthood begins, legally, at 18. Emotionally, it begins earlier or later, depending on the individual. And, just to be clear, there is quite a difference between 12 and 14 and 16 and 18 as well.

Finally, I guess I'm just not very intimidated by cartoon violence or cartoon sex. I find it amazing and sad how incredibly hung up Americans are about sex. It's the sex, not the extreme violence, that forces this game into an adult rating. What does that say about American standards?

That all being said, I, as a parent, have shielded my gamer geek children from games of this type for many many years without any assistance from the government. Every other parent can too. :shrug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. Anybody who has been around gamers long enough
I do, knows that a very small percentage of gamers, and I am talkng in less than one percent, will soend their money first on their fix (game) tahn on food, water and shelter. This fits the definition of addictive disorders.

Are they the majority? Hell no, a significant miniorty, nope, they are a very small minority...
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. yep, and that can happen
with ANY product that provides entertainment or escape.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #79
88. Point is it does happen
and the research is there, msotly with Vegas style gaming
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #57
68. Sex addiction?
Psychoanalysis is old and tired. Give it a rest. Video games cannot make a person addicted to sex. Video games aren't addictive either. It's silly to say that kids would be sex fiends over a video game. If that is true, show some good research that lacks political goals and has solid methodology instead of fluffy, pop psychology crap.

I read the papers and I will say the methodology (experimental design) is flawed. That makes the results flawed. I still say carding kids will not work since parents will buy it for them anyways. The solution lies with parents and not laws. If parents needs laws to raise their kids, they aren't parents.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Little guys are sex fiends already. What the experts are saying is
'what kind of sexuality are you teaching them'. You are teaching an unreality. I mean it is hard enough for all teens anyway to sort out the me vs. the one I like stuff already. Why would you want to teach aggression?
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. LOL
Teach aggression? Kids know that already. Ever heard of bullying? Been around far longer than video games.

Seems to me that you are the type that would sacrifice our culture just so parents wouldn't have to raise their kids. "Save the children" shit is just that, shit. If parents are so concerned, spend time with the kids. Having everyone else raise the kids doesn't work. Parents need to be responsible. Don't want kids to play, don't buy it. Don't like sex and aggression, teach your kids that sex is evil and perverted.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. No - you teach your kids that sex is normal and a private & personal
thing. Until they have the right relationship.

You don't fill their heads with the "hunt" "shooting others" and then throw a little sex in on the sly in the middle of all that hunting and killing.

That is all anyone is saying. Don't target kids for porno cartoon videos in the middle of a stupid game.

It seems such a concept is too hard for you to handle. The whole point is that parents would be able to trust the game industry to not exploit their kids in an area they are too immature to regulate in their own little minds. Don't target the vulnerable. Don't change their wiring and their lives. The gaming industry has no business selling sex to 12 year olds.

A very harsh thing I know - to treat children as children as long as they are.

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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #80
89. Morons
before the village metaphor is used again, how about some reality. GTA is not a kid's game. It's rated M (17+) for a fucking reason.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #52
61. wow, lots of assumptions there
There is zero evidence that adult men "can be turned into pedophiles by child porn."

Seriously, there were pedophiles before the printing press and talkie pictures were created.

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. So do we need more than naturally occur? Forget the pedophiles -
we are talking about messing with what is the last stage of childhood.

The lives of men who equate sex with aggression are not ones filled with joy. Why - other than to sell more video games so that someone can get rich - would you be for exposing kids to harmful sexuality created - instead of normality.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
51. "regulation" does not equate to "ban"
video games are regulated.

apparently Hillary's idea of "regulation" is to ban video games.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Sex in videos games that have as an audience little kids. Yes - ban
the idea juvenile video games with predatory fighting mixed in with visualizations of sex in the middle.

Why not?

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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Hey, some of us like sex with our violence
truly.

There are entire sections of the internet devoted to it. :shrug:
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. I very happy for you. That doesn't mean you get to influence kids.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. some people
have no sense of humor.

Nevertheless...parents should keep inappropriate material away from their children. Period.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. That doesn't mean you get to take anything away from me to 'protect' them
Edited on Thu Jul-21-05 01:45 AM by kgfnally
God DAMN, I am sick of the 'protecting the children' canard. It's old. Really.

Look, allow me to explain to you why few if any people should be complaining about the GTA flap (since that's where all this big debate came from in the first place). It's really very simple:

The extra content was shipped on all versions of GTA:SA. It was not immediately available or playable in-game.

The patch that enables the extra content was written by an end user. Although the content was in fact created by the publisher, there was never any guarantee that anybody would ever figure out it was there. The rumor of its existence could have spurred someone to pore over the disc and find the extra, unused content.

To their credit, Rockstar made no effort to sneak the content into the game via a 'cheat code' of their own design. This is an important point; they themselves disabled the minigame in question prior to release, and did so in all versions. Also, and this is important: each console is different; the PC is an entirely different animal even from those. For the console versions, great steps must be taken before one can consider using the patch that enables Hot Coffee; even on the PC, one must download a file and modify game files in order to get it to work. In any case, a halfway vigilant parent ought to be able to discern that something odd is being done, and take steps to stop their child from continuing.

A vigilant parent wouldn't have allowed the game in front of their kid's eyes in the first place, but that's beside the point. Let's look at another, related question: modding.

Games today for the PC often come with editors and scripting, modeling, and animation software geared toward allowing the end user to create their own content. This user-created content is wholly outside the control of the developer, despite the fact that the user often has access to many of the same tools the developers themselves used to create the game in the first place.

Would you have access to user-created mods, in a game in which there is no violence or sex "off the shelf", be "child safe"?

What if the editing tools allow auser to create such 'objectionable' scenes? Would you have that user prosecuted if a child downloaded and played such a mod? Keep in mind, the whole Hot Coffee thing was enabled by a mod which an end user created.

What do you want- licenses to write code, so you can revoke them if we somehow offend your child-safe sensibilities?

The overall impression I'm getting from parents regarding this issue is a very disturbing one. Basically, I'm getting the feeling that many parents would be just as happy if there were sold no Doom, no Halo, no Resident Evil. Exactly where are we going to go to get our adult games, hmm? The adult game store (where's that? Will cities allow them within their limits)? Or will we have to go to the porn store for it, as that's the only way they can be sold in your child-safe Utopian world?

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. M are allowed into stores
card those who are not old enough don't get them, why is this so hard a concept?

As to protecting the kids, I will say this, that content should not be even in the final product.. call me silly but why release it with it?

Taht is where the publisher comes in.

Oh I am a publisher by the way, of PnP games
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #53
65. why not increase the age limit for such games?
freedom of expression is not only for expression of views that you like.
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Stirk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
21. *edited* because this is such a non-issue and Hillary is a
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 06:54 PM by Stirk
fucking idiot for even devoting time to it in days like these.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
23. Um, seriously, don't we have much bigger problems than this?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was an illegal war going on in which people die every day that's costing us an arm and a leg (no pun intended). I thought over 40 million working Americans don't even have health coverage. I thought unemployment was a problem, high gas prices, the air we breathe. Poverty, you know, silly things like that?

Video games? Seriously?

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Not to HolyJoe and Hillary.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Yes
Seriously. The other issues are more important but to censor video games will lead to banning harry Potter (for security reasons), censoring films that poke at Bush, and list goes on. Don't forget, Patriot Act 2 is up soon. We may see more liberties fade away.
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Payne Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
24. This whole thing is BS
The sexual content doesn't even come with the game,you have to download a mod on the nets(where you could find much worse stuff)to unlock it.Anyway Rockstar will probably just make a new M rated version with the hidden sexual content taken out and a new mod with user created sexual content will come out in a week.In the end all this mess did was bring attention to a mod barely anyone knew about and it won't solve anything.Rockstar should have just put a label saying that the contents were subjected to change on the back of the box,kinda like what they do with games that have nets access.Also it pretty pathetic to judge people by the videogames they play Randr
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. yes. Half-Life II and many others even comes with a warning
stating that game content can change on multiplayer.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. Get A Grip
Women in this country may see their rights stripped away now that a Nazi is to be our next Supreme Court Justice, and you worry about games...?

Hillary, hillary...whaaaaaa.

surrrrrrre
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Yup
At a time of endless war, censorship could lead to a Dept of Media which would control the media much as Nazi and Communists did.
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
44. Why should adults...
Not be able to play a video game because it MIGHT be played by a child? Why should I suffer (yes suffer, I love video games) because someone thinks it turns little kids into killers? I've played video games all my life and most of my friends have. We're not psychotic killers. Actually, I don't even know why I'm restating this point...the violence figures from other countries that play the same games as we do should speak for themselves.

Little kids might pick up a knife and start stabbing someone, should we ban knives? Replace "knife" with anything you want and replace "stabbing" with whatever negative action is appropriate.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
55. My son doesn't play video games
They're not allowed in my house - YET.

We have far more interesting things to do.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
70. Banned? Do you keep Reynolds in quantity?
People (parents)are upset about violence and porn in games and they want a reliable system for regulation like movies and such.

There are MUCH BIGGER falafels to fry dearie.

Roe
Rove
Patriot Redux
Downing Street
Scalia in Roberts clothing

Just a short list. There's about a thousand things I'm more concerned with than video games.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
75. I could give two shits about what video games some teenager
might play. To quote Jello Biafra, we've got a bigger problem now. Hilary, if you can help me with figuring out how to provide healthcare to my retired parents (I don't even want to think about my own prospects on this road), or come up with an energy policy that won't leave us acting out Mad Max movies in a few years, or a trade policy that might give my kids a chance at the life I thought I was going to have, then I'd love to see you get on it. But video games just seems like another Republican-lite no-risk family-values morals issue that no one really cares about. Can't we do better?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
77. It's a basic question...
Edited on Thu Jul-21-05 04:17 PM by SaveElmer
Do consumers of videao games have a right to know what is contained in the games they buy?

In my view they do...and iof a company hides content, they should be criticized.


And of course you are misrepresenting Hillary's views...she is trying to make sure the rating system works, and that manufacturers abide by the rules they have agreed to

If you would like to see what she actually said...follow the link

http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?i...
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
85. I think the gaming community will be fine,
as long as they dont shut down anymore pot tunnels from canada that is.
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
87. Its just a little fringe issue.
But I do hope it doesn't grow into a bigger issue, even though i believe no one will really push any legislation on video games, other than being the apporiate age to buy a "said" game. Since the Tipper Gore mess, i think every politician will touch the video game issue with kid gloves
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