How do folks feel about bringing children into this world?

[tk2kewl]

My wife wants to have a child and I am kinda freak out. I have always wanted children. I felt pretty optimistic during the 90s and thought I would surely marry and have a family, but times have changed dramatically.

I will be 40 this year my wife is 37. We are by no account rich but we are better off than many. However, the future economy of this country (and world) scares the hell out of me, and I am not looking forward to working into my 70s to pay off the cost of educating children.

That said, I was born into extremely uncertain times (1965) and I am thankful my parents had me. My brothers and I were all out of college however while my parents were in their early 50s.

I am an Irish citizen as well as an American, and have thought seriously the last year or so about having a family in Europe where there is a more socialized education system, but the decline of dollar has reduced the value of assets, and my age is beginning to work against me in the job market, so I might take a hit in the standard-of-living department.

I would appreciate any thoughts/experiences folks are willing to share.

Thanks

[SteppingRazor]

1. Don't ever let your worldview affect your family.

In the Middle Ages, when life was at its all-time cheapest, people still had children. If you have the love to offer a child, I think its sad to give up on the idea of having one, just because you think it's bad out there. It's always been bad out there, the world's always been scary, and children have always been born. If you feel you and your wife have the love to give and you both want it, you should have a kid.
My parents were 41 and 39 when I was born, and I turned out fine. Except for the bodies stuffed in my crawlspace, of course. And the neighbor's dog insisting that I kill again.

[SCDem]

2. Having a child has made me even more of an activist

I have always been a Dem and an active one at that. But after having my son (he's 18 months old) I have become more of an activist than ever. I have to challenge myself to be a better person and to help make this a better place to live for my child and other children. I can't just sit and complain about it. Hopefully my son will take notice of this one day and do the same.

[tk2kewl]

22. I sometimes let things effect my outlook

Do you find it difficult to keep a positive outlook so your son knows he is safe?

[SCDem]

36. Yes sometimes I find it difficult but it needs to be done

Sometimes I get so frustrated at everything I see going on. But then I have to remember if I don't act on it it will be even worse.

Thank goodness Dean came along the same time I was pregnant or just had my son. Now I've taken my activism to the local level. Sometimes focusing at the local level for a while makes you see that you are making a change for the better.

[tallahasseedem]

51. I agree...

I also stepped up my activism and political education once my babies were born. In fact, I took my daughter who was 8 weeks old at the time to the Jesse Jackson 2000 election fraud protest in Tallahassee! Hopefully the tide will change soon.

[SCDem]

55. My son was 3 months at his first political rally - a Dean rally

in my home town. Then that summer I was elected as delegate to go up to Boston so then I took my then 8 month old son with me and got a picture of us with the man himself!

[slackmaster]

3. I decided not to have them for several reasons

The conditions of the times had nothing to do with my personal decision to be childless. (I have served as a stepfather, which fulfilled my "duty" and satisfied my curiosity about it.)

I have a couple of genetic traits that I would not want to pass on, and the idea of fathering children has never appealed to me.

[Hobarticus]

4. My wife and I are considering adoption...

There's enough kids who need help in the world, and we're zero population growth types of folks.

[SCDem]

8. My friends adopted from the Ukraine last August

two little boys ages 2 and 4 at the time. Beautiful kids and bonding was almost immediate.

Best wishes!

[Hobarticus]

13. How'd that go, for them?

We've considered China, but the red tape's absurd. Was it any smoother for them?

[SCDem]

21. Ukraine was very easy for them

It was fast too. I think they decided to go ahead in May and decided to start paper work. In August they went to Ukraine.... had to be unnerving because they didn't know when they left if they would come back with 0, 1, or 2 kids or boys or girls.

The deal with the Ukraine and why not more people adopt from there is that you can't adopt babies 0-18 months. So the people who want newbies don't go to the Ukraine.

My friends are older (42 and 49) and they expected to get older children. But there were brothers that were 2 and 4. They are as cute as can be.

Oh yeah and also the Ukraine orphanages kids are potty trained by 6 months so they didn't have to do any potty training.

[Hobarticus]

27. How much did that run them, ballpark?

China adoptions, all told, are somewhere in the $20k range.

[SCDem]

32. I'm not sure how much it cost them

but my friend said that they were almost going to bank even after getting their adoption tax credit in the following year.

[tk2kewl]

17. I hear you on the population issue

I have always thought adoption was very noble and envisioned it for myself, but in the end, I think I am probably too attached to the idea of continuing my blood line. It is possible that I will be the only one from my family to have kids (one brother is gay, the other currently has no SO prospects)

[Hobarticus]

29. I've thought about that, too...

But, my wife and just got married last year, both of us in our mid-thirties. If we wanted to have kids of our own, we would've done it by now.

[trotsky]

5. I have two kids.

And I'd be lying if I said I don't have moments where I wonder if bringing two more lives into this world that seems to be getting worse every day was the right thing.

Not to mention the difficulty (and yes, the cost) of raising kids!

Overall though, it's worth it. The pure joy you get from seeing your little one crawl, stand up, walk, talk, go to school, it just doesn't compare. And the love you have for your children is just so strong and so pure, it's like a drug.

Do it, man. We need more liberals! :)

[tk2kewl]

18. Thanks for the encouragement

All of my friends have the same sort of description of parenting, even the bush voters.

[Maat]

6. Let me tell you our story.

We had been married over 15 years - my husband, well, I just couldn't talk him into having a child - even though he had promised me. We actually had been together 22 years.

I was a social worker from 1993 to 2000, and began to learn about adoption. He said he wanted to adopt; it would be a positive thing. We got on the list; neither one of us knew anything about kids (except what I had learned on the job).

Suddenly I had that beautiful toddler in my arms. My husband went from being Mr.-I-don't-think-I-want-kids to being a MARSHMELLOW. Everything Princess wanted - she got- since the very first day of placement. Our world went from focusing on the latest sportscar we were going to buy, and went to being centered around Her Royal Highness, and her wants and needs.

It has been nothing but wonderful.

And I'm raising my daughter as a PROGRESSIVE, or LIBERAL. She WILL solve all of the world's problems, and see to it that another Booosh never is pResident.

Just thought I'd give my two cents.

[tk2kewl]

25. Thank you.

There are a lot of positive stories coming in. I especially like hearing about the skeptics being turned around. :hi:

[Maat]

30. You take care! (n/t)

[Doctor_J]

7. Mine are 21 and 19

we raised two happy, healthy, liberal girls in Limpballs' world. It can be done, and if you pull it off, you'll be glad you were able to contribute to saving the republic.

That said, if I were doing it now and could do it in Europe instead, I would lean in that direction.

[tk2kewl]

53. I hope they can really help make a difference.

Thanks :hi:

[BrainRants]

9. We're raising our kids as Dems, like my parents before me.

The more the merrier.

[HockeyMom]

39. Both my daughters registered as Republicans at 18

The schools are liberal? lol Majority of their teachers were Conservatives and I really think that clouded their views a lot. Then they graduated and went out into the real world of college and work.

My older daughter is gay and changed party affiliation almost immediately. She found out very quickly the Republican Party is no place for a gay person.

My younger daughter, who voted for the first time in a Presidential election, switched parties when she requested her absentee ballot to vote from college. She thinks Bush is an imbecile and a disgrace to Yale. She is against the war, pro choice, and very worried there will be no jobs for her and her friends when they graduate. Again, the Republican Party is no place for her either.

[BobRossi]

10. Age old dilemma.

I am 52 my wife is 39, we have a 5 year old and a 3 year old.
We are raising them to be good liberals and hope they will be part of tomorrow's solutions.
Can't tell you what to do, but I for one never knew so much love in all my years!

[tk2kewl]

26. I am happy for you. Do you worry about financing their education

given your age?

[Maat]

43. See, we are older parents too (see my post above).

All that has meant is that Beloved Princess (8) thinks that every child has her own bathroom and TWO bedrooms.

When you are older, you have time and resources to give them, and I (anyway) am much calmer.

The down side - well, I had a health scare, and a bad doctor told me I likely had cancer. I thought, "What have I done?" It turned out I didn't have anything exept something harmless.

The whole experience scared me. She know has a trust. It was a growth experience - I learned not to beat myself up. True, she had a set of biological parents that abandoned her before we adopted her, and losing another parent would be tragic. But I can't guarantee I will live forever (I'm 47), but I CAN guarantee having a positive influence on her, teaching her love and values, and I CAN financially provide for her future. I guess that is all any parent can promise.

It is all about HER now - gladly - I am just not anywhere near as self-involved as before we were blessed with Princess.

[phantom power]

11. Times are always dangerous.

I think it's fair to say that some times are worse than others, and we may be heading into some of the worst. But heck, every human alive has been living under the threat of nuclear apocalypse for 50 years. War, plague, famine, etc, have been immediate, serious threats for most of human history. They still are today, in a lot of the world.

Having a child is like saying "I choose hope". Or, like giving an uncaring universe the big finger.

We recently went through this process, and we have a 13 month old daughter. Every day, I'm scared shitless for her. But I suspect that's been true for every parent, ever.

[tk2kewl]

28. Thanks. I do sometimes need to be reminded that I am just

one of 6.5 billion people, and that I am WAY better off the the vast majority of them.

Bet of luck with your young family.

[phantom power]

31. Thanks, I should add that there's lots of fun and love too!

It's not all existential terror :-)

[rkc3]

12. I think the state of the economy, political climate and world affairs has

created a certain unease about making big decisions. Having a kid at 40 ranks as a big decision.

I've got two kids now and I worry that I made a mistake for the same reasons you have - but at the same time, I think I'm doing a reasonably good job at arming them for the future. Paying through the nose for a good school, keeping them away from the tube, and spending lots of free time with them.

[Kolesar]

14. I hated childhood

A decade and a half of guilt, manipulation, and assaults. I could not wait to be an adult. Yeah, there were moments of joy, but it was hardly a Norman Rockwell experience. I am glad I don't live in a farm economy or a conservative culture where children are required.

I just don't want to see anything like that again, especially experienced by someone I cared for.

[tk2kewl]

34. My childhood wasn't the best either, although sounds as if

it was somewhat better than yours. My father was pretty tough and often abusive. I was also raised Catholic so I had the guilt thing covered.

I have had some therapy over the years to deal with issues resulting from the abuse, but I still worry about my temper at times. I just hope that the experience of my childhood helps me to avoid being the dick my father was (He has mellowed with tim and we get along well now).

[Kolesar]

63. My father made the same "mistakes"

He was worse to my older siblings than me. It seemed the neighborhood had a number of violent people. I never felt safe on some blocks of my neighborhood or the schoolyard. The authorities were a bunch of losers. They never stood up for me. More correctly, the school authorities were a bunch of brutal thugs themselves.

[tex-wyo-dem]

15. I am 40 myself...

and my wife and I are planning to have kid(s) soon. I can tell you I have the exact same fears. Although the pendulum has always swung, I have a bad feeling that the long term ramifications of the ecomony, the fact that much of the world hates our guts, and especially the environment really spells bad things for the future.

But I keep telling myself that every generation has had fears of the future, and somehow things tend to work themselves out...I hope I'm not kidding myself.

[gollygee]

16. Do what your heart tells you - don't over analyze

It is a decision you will live with *forever* and I think in cases where there might be a large amount of regret it's best to follow your heart.

My husband didn't want children, but I knew I would regret it forever if I didn't. The agreement we came to was to have one, but only one child.

Good luck in your decision!

[tk2kewl]

59. But I over analyze everything.

I am a liberal after all. :D

[sweetheart]

19. The best part about kids is makin' em.

- Rodney Dangerfield.

I figure there are enough kids on the planet, and if i need to do some
lovein, there are plenty out there who need parenting, be it through
adoption, community activism, aid work or whatever.

Kids are an economic burden of profound proportions that the republicans
use to enslave people by making the parents run so hard on the wheel
to cover the economics of kids that nothing is left.

If it really is a biological clock thing and you're not sure, get a
puppy.

[BiggJawn]

20. If you wait until you can afford children...

You'll be too old, and you'll have to worry about chaffeuring them to playgroup or whatever when you're in your 70's, never mind paying for college...

[tanyev]

23. How open are you to New Age stuff?

Do some googling on Indigo Children and Crystal Children. Supposedly, the children being born right now will lead us to a new level of consciousness. I'm not saying I'm a believer, but it is certainly a much more hopeful view of the future.

[tk2kewl]

40. I am by nature a skeptic.

But also a sucker for hope. I'll check it out. ;)

[seabeyond]

24. are you kidding, we need your kids

my kids, they see a future, a future of what they will be able to do to create a healthier enviroment. i have hope and high expectation and see opportunity for my children. i am not afraid. my boys, they are so smart and aware they can do so much. besides by the time your kids are actually go to be in position of creating future, this will be resolved. what they do with it?

this is merely a swing of the pendulum

and....to deprive self of something that isnt yet. the future. to me is silly.

and ..... personally the lessons and wow, this is love, and experience with kids, amazing.

its all good.

and that means the fears of preg, the tired of baies, the patience of two yr olds, the off the hip of kid, the moving to independence of older

literally all the challenges and hard work, i am getting grey, and i have a line forming between brows, lol lol but it is all a blast. even in the "hard work"

[Dora]

33. Me: 35. Mr. Dora: 46 Son of Dora: 4 months

Don't let your age be an issue for you, unless you have health concerns that might make you unable to take an active role in parenting. Your wife's age may be cause for more awareness, not worry. I just gave birth to our first (probably only) child this year at the age of 35. I had NO PROBLEMS. However, if we decide to do it again (unlikely), I know that my age will be more of a concern.

I cried many days of my pregnancy because of my worries about the world and my fears of bringing a child into it. I do not regret having this child at this time. He is our sunshine and our bedrock. The world seems more dire, more at risk, and ever more hopeful with his presence. My husband insists our son will be the leader of the free world some day. My hope is that he'll be able to think for himself and live in the world with compassion and dignity.

In these times, we must teach our children well. If we have no children, then who will learn our lessons? Who will rectify what we could not stop?

Money is a golem, a ruse. Don't let it dupe you. My husband and I struggle every month - he's a musician with a part-time day job. I work at a university in a low-level clerical position. We "own" a house, and have a smaller debt load than many people do. Worrying about education costs isn't even on our radar because in 18 years, who knows if higher ed for the masses will even exist?

If you and your wife have deep and abiding love for each other and want to share that love with a child, and you want to raise a child with love in order to bring some more light into an ever-darkening world... then I suggest you stop thinking, and start loving.

*added on edit* Do it, already. Just do it, please. It's just a step forward into the unknown. Just one step.

[tk2kewl]

45. Thanks for sharing your story.

I really did post for encouragement, and (for the most part) the feedback positive. I wish your young family the best. :hi:

[Dora]

47. Best of everything to you and Mrs. 2kewl

I promise you, the world will open for you like an onion. It's a beautiful thing.

Every parent here is backing you up. :grouphug:

[tk2kewl]

60. you guys are all great.

:grouphug: back at ya

[tnlefty]

35. Guilty. It wasn't easy for me to have my kids and I love them

dearly. In my sea of red, I know one family who is leaving for New Zealand in July, one family who is waiting for the final word on their paperwork and a tentative date to move to NZ. A family bound for Belgium and 3 contemplating Canada and another to Mexico. I would gladly move if I could afford it.

[wallwriter]

37. We are the most consumptive and wasteful society that the world

has ever known. That would be an argument against having kids. Then again, who will pay for my Social Security benefits?

[Trailrider1951]

38. Well, when I had my two children, the price of oil and food and

housing was escalating, we were involved in a very unpopular war overseas, and there was a lying, cheating Republican crook in the White House. Sound familiar? LOL! Both my daughter and my son have brought me more joy in my life than anyone or any thing has. They are now married, and I have three lovely grandchildren to spoil. I cannot imagine my life without them! It would be very bleak indeed. Go for it!

[tk2kewl]

49. I have been meaning to have that talk with my dad.

Do you find it is scary now or was scarier when the progressive leaders of country were being gunned down?

[Trailrider1951]

57. In many ways it is much scarier NOW

Mostly because then, I was very young and naive, and I swallowed every lie the bastards told us. It took me well into the Reagan years to realize what was really going on was not what we were being told. If you and your family have an alternative home to this one, you would be wise to keep your options open. I and my daughter and her family live only a few hundred miles away from the southern border, and we habla espanol. My son and his family live a couple of hundred miles south of the northern border, and have skills that would be welcomed there. We have our passports up to date, because you never know.

[tk2kewl]

64. I got my foreign-born Irish citizenship about 5 years ago

I have yet to get a passport, and I need to find out how/if I can get citizenship for my wife

[PurityOfEssence]

41. Unless you REALLY want kids, don't have them

The last thing this earth needs is more people. Having said that, of course, the world NEEDS kids who are brought up well and inculcated into the morality of society.

We have two, and we cringe at the ugliness the future will bring them, yet we are fairly prosperous and can give them the attention and nurturing necessary for them to have a leg up in these scary times.

Examine why you would want to have them. If it's just some murky biological programming, then don't. If you really want to give something back to society, then do. It's a lot of work, but it's not the buzzkilling nightmare that many would like you to believe; your life will change, but it's not as drastic as you probably think.

PM me if you want to talk more.

[SmokingJacket]

42. Do it.

I admit I'm scared for my sons... but this isn't the worst time mankind has ever lived through. We'll make it, and the world can use some kids who care about others and the fate of the world. Frankly, if it weren't for my kids, I don't know if I'd have the will to keep fighting...

If I wanted more kids at this point, however, I'd adopt, and may yet.

As for education: that's my main worry. I know I won't have a few hundred thousand $$ lying around when they're ready for college, and I don't want them burdened by debt, either. What to do??? I don't know...

[NJCher]

44. never had any and happy about the decision

I was about 13 when I could see how easily a capitalistic government could be manipulated by the military-industrial complex. Everything I feared then has come about. I also read The Population Bomb about that time. I decided I would not have children.

Instead I have cats which I adopted from a shelter or some other similar means. My husband loves the cats as much as I do.

Just about everyday since bush has been in office I have said, "Boy am I glad I didn't have kids." Already each one has a $39,000 debt.

Being sans children has not lessened my motivation to bring about a better world. I am very active politically and up until a couple years ago, worked p-t because I worked on nonprofit environmental causes the other half of the time for no pay.


Cher

[leveymg]

46. Best thing we ever did was to have our daughter. Our situation was

very much like those you describe for your wife and yourself. We were also 40 and 37, and facing uncertainty.

All I can say is, our three lives together these past ten years have been a gift. I do not regret a second. Please, go ahead and become a father. :hi: :thumbsup:

[tk2kewl]

52. Thanks.

:)

[dogday]

48. When You Die, You Can't Take Any Material Things With You But

if you have children, you leave a legacy in this world. You go on through your children and their children. You will be remembered... Just this dog's opinion. I love my pups....

[tallahasseedem]

54. Do you by chance...

listen to the Dave Matthews Band? They have a song called "Seek Up" that talks about those kinds of things. It is a very well written song. It is also very telling of the kind of world we live in today.

Lyrics:

Sometimes I feel like I'm falling
Fall back again, fall back again,
Fall back again, fall back again

Oh, life it seems a struggle between
What we think what we see
I'm not going to change my ways
Just to please you or appease you
Inside a crowd, five billion proud
Willing to punch it out
Right, wrong, weak, strong
Ashes to ashes all fall down
Look around about this round
About this merry-go-round around
If at all God's gaze upon us fall
His mischievous grin, look at him

Forget about the reasons and
The treasons we are seeking
Forget about the notion that
Our emotions can be swept away
Forget about being guilty,
We are innocent instead
For soon we will all find our lives swept away

Sit awhile with TV's hungry child
Big belly swelled
Oh, for a price of a coke or a smoke
Keep alive those hungy eyes
Take a look at me, what you see in me,
Mirror look at me
Face it all, face it all again

Forget about the reasons and
The treasons we are seeking
Forget about the notion that your emotions can be
Wept away, kept at bay
Forget about being guilty, I am innocent instead
For soon we will all find our lives swept away

You seek up an emotion
And our cup is overflowing
You seek up an emotion,
Sometimes your well is dry
You seek up a big monster
For him to fight your wars for you
But when he finds his way to you, the devil's not
Going--ha, ha

Say, say

Look at me in my fancy car
And my bank account
Oh, how I wish I could take it all down
Into my grave, I'd save
Take a look again, take a look again,
Take a look again
Everyday things change...stay the same

Forget about the reasons and
The treasons we are seeking
Forget about the notion that
Your emotions can be swept away
Intentions are not wicked,
Don't be tricked into thinking so
Soon we will all find our lives swept away

You seek up an emotion
And our cup is overflowing
You seek up an emotion,
Sometimes your well is dry
You seek up a big monster
For him to fight your wars for you
But when he finds his way to you,
The devil's not going - ha, ha
Fall back again, fall back again, fall back again

[marions ghost]

70. there are many good reasons to have children

but I'm not sure the "legacy" one is very convincing. We are not immortal and we cannot make ourselves immortal through children. You will be remembered for a couple of generations maybe. Our society has a very short memory. Having children is a creative and rewarding experience, but I worry about people thinking of it as their main gift to the world, and the way they will "live on." That's a little too much self-delusion in that thought.

[dogday]

74. What is the family name if not your legacy?

Noone says we are immortal but we will be remembered by our children and their children and so on. Yes you do live on through your kids as I am an example, I lost my Mother 25 years ago, however I still think and talk about her, I tell my children about her and she will not be forgotten by me or by my children. 25 years later and she is still loved and thought about.... Where did you get the word immortal at?

[marions ghost]

76. OK well

Understand that I think there's no right or wrong here. Not trying to make a challenge out of this. I'm just questioning this fondly held notion of "legacy." Say you have a child who you invest everything in and he is killed in Iraq. Does that means you suddenly have no legacy? This person who was going to carry your torch is gone. It seems like too much of yourself has to die right then and there, if you have invested your whole soul in your child and believe that they will carry on for you. Maybe people --esp males--
need this legacy idea to get into the job of childraising?

It's wonderful that you carry the memories of your mother, but in another generation she too will be no more (unless somebody writes something down). Is it really so important, is all I'm saying. Is it even important to carry on names? I know someone who hates his father so much he changed the family name. I guess I've never understood this thing about what happens after I die. To have a child to share your life with, now THAT I understand. But this legacy thing just doesn't seem very dependable or real to me. Not knocking you, just saying it doesn't DO anything for me, does not give me a thrill. Just interesting how people think about all this.
:)

[dogday]

77. Funny You Should Say That

As my Son ships out to Afghanistan in August. I can't think beyond that. I understand what you are saying, but it is so cool to be able to tell my children about their Grandmother, it keeps her alive for me. Yes one day, none of us will be mentioned, but I like to think that we carry on one way or another, that somehow part of us goes on in this world.

[marions ghost]

78. Sorry...please forgive

*Putting foot in mouth*
I didn't mean to pile it on there. Of course you don't want to chit chat about that right now. Understood.
May we all carry on...one way or the other...into a world made a little better by our being here. (Think of all these politicians who've racked up a very large number of negative legacy points--better not to live on that way)...

all best to your family, peace mg

[Redstone]

50. Just stop worrying.

Sory, but whenever I hear someone ask the "should I bring a child into this horrible world" question, I have to roll my eyes.

When would have been a better time than now for a kid to grow up?

Secondly, don't worry about your age. My wife and I were 43 when we had our second one, and it's working out fine.

If you can't find a way to pay for college for the kid when you're in your 70s, than the kid will just have to find a way to do it for his or herself. Millions of people have done that before.

Redstone

[forgethell]

56. KIds are worth

whatever sacrifices you have to make for them.

Besides, you probably can't predict the future any better than other people. How do you know all your dire thoughts will come true? Take a chance.

[praisethelowered]

58. wow, this is a timely topic

my wife just went off birth control because we are both 37 and it's now or never. . . but not a day goes by that one of us doesn't "flip-flop" (ha ha i still hate that term) on whether we should go through with it.

we are both artists with full time day jobs, studio work at night and weekends, travel for shows, etc. starting a new business next year and still have a lot of goals we haven't even started to pursue yet.

when people tell me " oh don't worry, you'll be happy to give up all of your goals and projects when you look at that beautiful baby" I don't think that sounds too good. I am proud of what i add to my community and the larger culture and I am not sure who I am without all of these projects.

my repub sister and brother in law were always zombies who added nothing to the world . . .so seeing them turn into mom & dad zombie with no personality outside of the roles they play as parents provides very little proof that it can be good or bad either way.

we've been "interviewing" other people who are active and engaged in the world about how kids have changed their lives and most have told us that they have had a hard time remaining active outside the family and some regret what they have been turned into.

Honestly, I am really afraid. The world may need me as an active participant in politics and culture more than it needs another mouth to feed and another inward focused zombie mom and dad.

I have come to respect the community on this board and some of your stories mean a lot to me. More stories and advice would be greatly appreciated.

[tk2kewl]

61. There are quite a few posting in this thread that say

they have become more active. So i think that is encouraging. Thanks for sharing your situation. There is a lot of expression of hope here. :)

[Dora]

62. Good luck, plus unasked for advice

Here's a bit of advice for your wife. My husband and I decided last year that the time was right, and I went off the pill in February. I was 34 years old at the time and I had been on the pill for 12 years, and I was concerned about my body's ability to get its hormones in the right balance for conception. I did a little bit of reading on the internet, and I found some interesting information about wild yam as an aid to fertility and conception. I started taking it (in capsule form) and we conceived in just 3.5 months. I know every woman is different, but I'm convinced that the yam helped my body get back into balance and aid its receptivity.

No negative side effects.

[enigmatic]

65. Adopt

There are many, many children out there that are w/o parents, especially minority children that nobody wants because they aren't lily-white; adopting a child is the more wonderful, fulfilling thing you could do if you wanted to become a parent.

Please, please, consider this; the world doesn't need more children being born, it needs the children already born that have no parents to brought into a family and raised as such.

Good luck.

[Maat]

79. And older children.

Beloved Daughter was 2 when she was placed with us (adoption formalized/completed 1 year later); people constantly ask me if she 'remembers anything.' Nope.

My kid is a forward-looker. Looked at me, looked at my husband, said 'Mommy, Daddy,' the day she was placed. And that was it ... onward.

It has been the best experience!

Now, Her Royal Highness, Beloved Daughter, is 8. It's not like she's pampered or anything - but she just asked to go to Hawaii to celebrate graduating from 2nd grade (Daddy thought that was pretty funny).

[Occulus]

66. I don't know how to feel about it

I'd like to have a child at some point in my future, but I'm 30, I'm gay, and most of our society doesn't want me to even adopt. I'm waaaay too angry about how our society treats gay people to make a good father... I'm sad to say that, but... most of our society wouldn't let me be a good father. Everything I know, everything I believe, seems wrong to everyone else.

I wish I felt like I could be a good dad, but.... I just don't. Too much baggage, too many regrets. Tooo damn many broken promises, emotional abuse, and all the ancillary junk that goes with it. I don't want to behave to my kid the way I was treated by my parents.

Maybe I'll just donate my sperm and be happy with that. Oops! I'm gay, so I'm not supposed to do even that.

What a fucking bloody wonderful world.

[twenty4blackbirds]

67. I freak out

I'm hopeful that the future will work itself out. It always has. And not always in the direction I expected. So fear for the future is not the main factor.

The important things in life will always be affordable. Time, and no-nonsense love. Food on the table (or the table itself) is for the future to work out. I'm confident in my ability to work on a solution to any problem facing my family. So fear for my ability as a provider is not the main factor.

I do have love for people. I have love for children. I would be pleased to expose another human being the wonderful joy of friendship/family/reciprocal relationship. So lack of empathy for others is no longer the main factor.

I freak out because of the thought of having one (or more) human dependent on me for 20+ years (financial support may stop in the teens but emotional support goes on longer ime) 24hrs 7 days is an overwhelming goal for me. Not to mention the worry when precious child is out of my sight. I freak out because if I raise a child I would want better parenting than I had and I am certain I will not even match the parenting I received - neverending patience from my mom, stern discipline from my dad, cultural knowledge, friendship with my siblings (I reckon _that_ is something which is nurtured and not natural), hot home-cooked food on the table that reassured all was well (I'm more the Instant Food), and the expectation that excellence in education is a good thing.

One day I'll close my ears to those fears because children can be one of the best rewards in life. I'm beginning to believe, y'see, that the First Best reward in a person's life is to know that your children are experiencing the joy of their children. It's not a necessity in life, it is a happy bonus.

The guardian.co.uk had 7 questions recently about whether a woman was ready to be a mom. Can't find it now. The questions were based upon how much of your current life you were willing to change, to devote to your child. E.g. Waking up in the middle of the night to attend to your child, every night for an undetermined period of time; how would you handle your child being really really annoying, etc.

Your fears for the future is legit (but then you know that); if you do emigrate it will be for the same reasons many immigrants leave their country - to get a better life for their children. If you can withstand the lesser standard-of-living (and many immigrants do) you will get a better life for your child/ren. just make sure you immigrate legally to the next country 'cos you wouldn't want to end up on a Detention Center (I hear detained children of illegal immigrants are going insane in the Australian ones :-()

Good Luck in your decision.

[tk2kewl]

68. A lot to think about.

Thanks for the thoughts. Having Irish citizenship in my back pocket is comforting, but I doubt I would go.

[Emperor Norton]

69. drunks

its ok yet there too many drunk drivers and illegal aliens without car insurance and worthless politicians ruining america ,,polticians drive drunk too

the whole country is crap

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

72. I think you might have had one too many already. n/t

[misanthrope]

92. Kids or drinks?n/t**

*

[donsu]

71. I wouldn't have children now, but if you do

have your mate have a mercury test done before conceiving.

[joelH]

73. Having Children

Provided you are mature enough to understand that the child you create is the important part of the equation, not you. It will be totally dependent on you for all its needs for many years. It will trust you completely. It is a great responsibility, and a great privilege. Then, there is this thing called love.

I have raised three children. That was the best education and most satisfying experience of my life (I am now 58).

Shakespeare had an opinion about this:

When forty winters shall besiege thy brow
And dig deep trenches in thy beauty's field
Thy youth's proud livery, much gazed on now
Will be a tattered weed of small worth held.
When being asked where all thy beauty lies
Where all the treasures of thy lusty days,
To say within your own deep sunken eyes
Were an all eating shame and thriftless praise.
How much more praise deserved thy beauty's use
If thou could say, "This fair child of mine shall sum my count
And make my old excuse"
Thus proving his beauty by succession thine.
This were to be new made when thou art old,
And see thy blood warm when thou feelst it cold.

That was typed from memory, so, it may contain some mistakes.

There was another nice sonnet about this subject, part of which goes as follows:

For thou art thy mother's glass
And she in thee calls back the lovely April of her prime.

[DireStrike]

75. I think it's not right to have more than one kid

Say what you want about the "only child" factor; kids with siblings always say they wanted to be an only child, and only children always say they wanted siblings. I don't think there's really much of a difference.

Overpopulation necessitates that we change our ways. I want to have children, but I think having more than one would be very selfish. I could maybe see two, if you believe that it's better for them to have siblings, but I don't.

[JohnLocke]

80. I have a sibling and I've never wanted to be an only child.

[Fescue4u]

81. I've never heard anyone say that

I've never heard anyone say they wish they were an only child.

But I have heard plenty of only children say they wished they had siblings.

I have 3 kids and I don't feel selfish.

On the contrary, I feel quite generous to have contributed 3 wonderful people to the world who will be improving this world long after Im gone.

[cynatnite]

82. It's funny you asked that

My grandmother has said for over twenty years that the world is getting worse and she doesn't understand why some have babies during such 'horrible' times.

Just a second ago my six year old son brought me his broken jet and asked me to fix it. Okay, the wheel came off. I put it back on and you would have thought I was the greatest jet fixer there ever was to hear my son tell it.

I got a hug and kiss out of the deal.

It's the little things that bring joy and it's wonderful when your ideas, thoughts and even fixing a little toy jet can bring so much to your child.

Kids will always be our greatest hope.

[walldude]

83. I'm 42 and have 3 kids

11,9 and 6. All boys. Not gonna gloss over the truth. It's hard. I always see all these people talking about how wonderful their children are. Then I wonder what the hell I'm doing wrong. My kids are selfish, loud, obnoxious, little monsters, 2 of the three are upstairs fighting right now, I believe over a chess game. I'm trying not to butt in. There is an old saying about kids, one is a blessing two is a curse. Well I have three, and as terrible as they are sometimes, they are also wonderful little people. They give me hope for the future, for them, and for myself. What I have come to realize is that I'm not doing anything wrong, 90% of the parents who say their kids are just wonderful little angels are lying their asses off. Kids are a major pain in the ass. They are also the greatest thing that will ever happen to you. Chris Rock did a bit once where he said "If you've never stared at a bottle of Rat Poison for an hour or so, you've never been in love." He could have finished that by saying "you've never had kids". Kids are the highest highs and the lowest lows. They will drive you insane while they teach you about true unconditional love. Go for it. Just be prepared. Here's a funny kid story to give you an idea of what it's like:
My 9 year old plays baseball. One day he had a game and couldn't find his glove. He said he lost it in the yard. So my wife and I are looking all over for this glove when my wife steps in a small hole and twists her ankle. So while she's laying there writhing in pain our wonderful son runs up to her and says "MOM! I have a game in an hour would you quit goofing off and find my glove!!!
Kids.. you gotta love em'.

[mitchum]

84. I would never burden ANYONE with existence...

It's not called a vale of tears for nothing

[misanthrope]

85. No way...

...the last thing the world needs right now are more homo sapiens, especially if those new people will belong to a society that consumes resources and creates pollution at an alarming rate. Everytime I see a baby, the first thing that goes through my head is, "Well, there's another two metric tons of landfill space per annum."

I can think of plenty of reasons not to have children and most of them put the needs of others above the individual. The reasons that are usually trotted out by the child-bearing are pretty selfish.

Perhaps you should go to these spots and read more:
Childfree By Choice
Childfree pages
childfree@ezboard
vikars rant
childless by choice

[walldude]

86. Spoken like someone who has no kids.

Really, while I respect people with no children, claiming that not having children puts the "needs of others above the indivdual" and that most reasons for child bearing are selfish, is a skewed position. Any parent will tell you that raising a child is the most selfless thing you can do. Whether the child was concieved on purpose, was a happy accident or was adopted. And my children all fit that bill, One on purpose, one accident and one adoption. Sure the world is a mess, over crowded, polluted, and generally fucked up. Maybe more progressive liberals need to raise kids who are aware of these things and will grow to try to change them. Just MHO..

[REP]

89. Spoken Like Someone Justifying Their Own Position

You see the reason for not having children as skewed; I see "raising future proressive liberals" as a crap shoot and pretty skewed.

Not having children does use fewer resources than having children. No doubt about that.

Wanting to raise a child is something that can't really be explained, just like most desires. Raising future members of a political party, though, is not a good reason to have a child!

[misanthrope]

91. Raising future members of a political party...

...sounds an awful lot like, "I want to have kids so I can make another version of me."

[REP]

96. Well, Yeah

I guess I just don't get the whole "my DNA must live on" thing.

Plus, Howard Dean's parents were Republicans. It doesn't always work out!

[misanthrope]

90. Raising a child...

...not of your loins would seem to me "the most selfless thing you can do." Raising your own offspring is something most every animal that ever drew a breath has done.

How about someone who sacrifices their body's innate drive for genetic replication so that others may have the resources to live better? Does that qualify as any type of altruism?

[misanthrope]

88. Some quotes...

...for amusement,

"People who get nostalgic about childhood were obviously never children."
--Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes


"The first half of our lives is ruined by our parents, and the second half by our children."
--Clarence Darrow


"If your parents never had children, chances are you won't, either."
--Dick Cavett


"It is no wonder that people are so horrible when they start their life as children."
--Kingsley Amis


"People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one."
--Leo J. Burke


"Men and women are like other living creatures: they bring children into the world with little or no thought about the matter and then they suffer and toil as best as they can to rear them. Men and women think that it is necessary to have children. It is not. It is their animal nature and social custom, rather than reason, which makes them believe that this is a necessity.
Don't have children; they bring much trouble, toil, and sorrow. What few advantages there are to having children rarely outweigh the disadvantages."
--Democritus


"And it came about while He said these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice, and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts at which You nursed.' But He said, 'On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God, and observe it."
--Jesus (Luke 11:27-28)


"Rabbi Yehudah the Levite said: When a person leaves this world without children, he feels bad and cries. God says to him, 'Why are you crying? Is it because you did not bear fruit in this world? You have fruit that's better than children!' He asks, 'Master of the Universe, what fruit did I bear?' God replies, 'The Torah...'"
--The Midrash Tanchuma


"Children might or might not be a blessing, but to create them and then fail them was surely damnation."
--Lois McMaster Bujold


"Having a first child is like throwing a hand grenade into a marriage."
--Nora Ephron


"Having children makes you no more a parent than having a piano makes you a pianist."
--Michael Levine


"The world might, perhaps, be considerably poorer if the great writers had exchanged their books for children of flesh and blood."
--Virginia Woolf


"Youth is a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children."
--George Bernard Shaw


"The perpetuity by generation is common to beasts; but memory, merit, and noble works are proper to men. And surely a man shall see the noblest works and foundations have proceeded from childless men, which have sought to express the images of their minds, where those of their bodies have failed. So the care of posterity is most in them who have no posterity."
--Francis Bacon


"Setting an example for your children takes all the fun out of middle age."
--William Feather, Sr.


"The secret of dealing successfully with a child is not to be its parent."
--Mel Lazarus


"If motherhood doesn't interest you, don't do it. It didn't interest me, so I didn't do it. Anyway, I would have made a terrible parent. The first time my child didn't do what I wanted, I'd kill him."
--Katherine Hepburn


"Some men just aren't cut out for paternity. Better they should realize it before and not after they become responsible for a son."
--Lois McMaster Bujold


"What, what was that you were saying about me? I thought I heard you say it was a pity...a pity I never had children? But you're wrong...I have thousands of them...thousands of them...and all boys!"
--Charles "Mr. Chips" Chipping (Spoken by Actor Robert Donat in Good-bye Mr. Chips, 1939)


"Humans are the only animals that have children on purpose with the exception of guppies, who like to eat theirs."
--P.J. O'Rourke


"When I consider how little of a rarity children are, — that every street and blind alley swarms with them, —that the poorest people commonly have them in most abundance, — that there are few marriages that are not blest with at least one of these bargains, — how often they turn out ill, and defeat the fond hopes of their parents, taking to vicious courses, which end in poverty, disgrace, the gallows, etc. — I cannot for my life tell what cause for pride there can possibly be in having them. If they were young phoenixes, indeed, that were born but one in a year, there might be a pretext. But when they are so common."
--Charles Lamb


"Except for under the most adverse circumstances -- such as homelessness, unsafe living conditions or lack of spouse and child care -- child raising was not meant to be a full-time activity. No culture on earth outside of mid-century suburban America had ever deployed one woman per child without simultaneously assigning her such major productive activities as weaving, farming, gathering, temple maintenance, and tent building. The reason is that full-time, one-on-one child raising is not good for women or children."
--Barbara Ehrenreich


"I love children, especially when they cry, because then somebody takes them away."
--Nancy Milfors:


"There is nothing more destructive in childhood than a boy’s sense that his father doesn’t like him."
--Harding Lemay


"Choosing to have children is like choosing to play the bagpipes: you must do it well or not at all. Anything in between and you'll really annoy your neighbors."
--Nina Paley


"You don't have to suffer to be a poet; adolescence is enough suffering for anyone."
--John Ciardi


"When you rescue a dog in bad straits and feed him, take care of him, and give him a home, the dog is grateful. This is the chief difference between a dog and a human being."
-- Mark Twain


"Learning to dislike children at an early age saves a lot of expense and aggravation later in life."
--Robert Byrne


"A child who believes in Santa Claus, who really and literally believes, because his daddy told him so, that Santa comes down all the chimneys in the world on the same night has had his thinking ability permanently impaired if not destroyed."
--G. Brock Chisholm, Former Director General of the World Health Organization/ WHO


"I stopped believing in Santa Claus when I was six. Mother took me to see him in a department store and he asked for my autograph."
--Shirley Temple


"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is
To have a thankless child!
--William Shakespeare/ "King Lear", Act 1 Scene 4


"Too much indulgence has ruined thousands of children; too much love not one."
--Fanny Fern


"My husband and I are either going to buy a dog or have a child. We can't decide whether to ruin our carpets or ruin our lives."
--Rita Rudner


"You should treat your children as strangers whom you happen to like - if, that is, you happen to like them."
--Richard J. Needham, Canadian columnist


"Giving birth is like taking your lower lip and forcing it over your head."
-- Carol Burnett


"When will you people learn? In America we stopped using corporal punishment and things have never been better. The streets are safe, old people strut confidently trough the darkest alleys and the weak and nerdy are admired for their computer programming abilities. So, like us, let your children run wild and free, for as the Bible tells us, "Let your children run wild and free."
--Homer Simpson, Character on The Simpsons


"Leaving behind books is even more beautiful -- there are far too many children."
--Marguerite Yourcenar

[funflower]

87. Follow your heart. A kid doesn't take that much space.

My kids have made me a LOT more poor than I would have been, but they are SO worth it. They're the best decision we ever made.

(I'd think twice about having six or eight of them!)

[Madrone]

93. The way I see it....

If you and your wife are discussing these things, and concerned about the future or whether you're making the right choice - you ARE. You will be wonderful parents. Consider all of the people you know and hear about that treat having a baby like buying a new pair of shoes - it's a novelty, and often not given any consideration beyond that. Your children would be raised by thoughtful, consciencious, compassionate people. How cool is THAT??

If people like us (and I am 32 with no children - no relationship) refuse to have children because we're afraid of where the world is heading we are dooming the world to the fate of our fears. The ignorant, the greedy, the selfish - they're breeding at an alarming rate. We already know what ignorance, greed, and selfishness are doing to our society - we need balance.

You've always wanted children - so do it. Make it your mission to raise your child to be the best human being it can be - to have a social conscience, and to be compassionate. We need more of that.

[holboz]

94. Know where you're coming from about raising kids in Europe vs. US

My British husband and I are very proud parents of a spirited 16 month old. She was a "surprise" in that we were taking precautions but she managed to sneak past the guard, so to speak. We had the exact same fears you discussed. We weren't sure if we were emotionally ready and really weren't sure if we were finacially ready. In short, we were scared shitless. But I tell you what, my pregnancy made us get our act together and we've done just fine, even with me being a stay at home mom. Kids aren't cheap, but you might be surprised how things seem to fall into line.

My husband and I talk every day about our worries and concerns with this country and we made the decision to move to England next year. The UK has its share of problems but we think living there is in the best interest of our daughter, even if our standard of living might drop a bit. The education is better, there's better access to museums and other cultural events than where we currently live, and people in England/Europe seem to have a wider world view than most Americans.

Good luck ...having a child is the best thing that ever happened to my husband and I, even thought we were scared out of our minds at first! We will do our best to raise her to be vigilant, think critically, to take action when necessary, and fight for what is right and just.

[newmexican]

95. children

61 year old male with four children: two biological, two adopted. Generally great life: wonderful marriage, interesting careers, live in beautiful place, travel, etc. etc. However, children are best thing in my life and could not imagine life without children. I would give up every and any other experience in my life for this one.

Have not had perfect children and has not always been easy. Was not interested until first came along, then totally, irrevocably committed and have been ever since. They are all adults now and we are transitioning from parent/child to deep friendships.

Good Luck.

[misanthrope]

97. One more...

...a study from Indiana University.