John McCain: Hero? Bush butt-boy? Enigma? All of these?

[Cyrano]

During the Vietnam War, John McCain spent five years in the "Hanoi Hilton." He was not only tortured, but he was also offered his freedom because of who his father was. Realizing that this would have been a propaganda coup for North Vietnam, he turned it down.

No one can dare question McCain's courage. But one can sure question his judgment on the issue of George W. Bush. During the 2000 presidential campaign, the Bush/Rove southern campaign against him was straight out of the KKK handbook.

Watching McCain hug Bush during the 2004 campaign was like watching Sammy Davis Jr. hugging Richard Nixon. Why would a man with the guts that McCain obviously has, go out of his way to kiss Bush's ass?

Beats me. How many of us believe we could have survived what was done to McCain during the Vietnam War? And how many of us would have then gone out of our way to bend over for the most ignorant, corrupt president in the history of this country?

McCain is an enigma that I will never understand.

[SHRED]

1. Let me help you

How about burning children's skin from napalm dropped out of McCain's plane? Some "courage" ...eh?

[Cyrano]

2. You'll get no argument from me on this.

Our involvement in Vietnam was as criminal and evil as our current criminal invasion of Iraq.

As hard as it is to say "Yes, but..." would you have been able to take five years of torture?

As much as that war sucked, (like virtually all wars do), you can't blame McCain for getting us involved, or for following his family's military tradition. After all, it took most Americans a few year to finally "get it" in regard to Vietnam.

But it still begs the question: WTF is going on in John McCain's mind?

[Straight Shooter]

4. Thank you for putting things in perspective. That pic just says it all.

The New Yorker's most recent issue has an article on McCain. You should read his disingenuous remarks concerning Kerry's vote against the $87 billion. Not one damn word about the reason for it, just a mealy-mouthed "Kerry didn't take a stand."

McCain is pushing for 2008, but he's a dead man walking, politically. The bushes will stab him in the back again.

I have no respect for McCain. Even the biggest jerks in life have been known to behave like heros in extraordinary circumstances. And furthermore, his good friend Day, also a POW with him, was one of the most vocal opponents of John Kerry and did a lot of damage.

Because of McCain, I guarantee you that's the reason, we're stuck with bush again for 4 more years. He campaigned for the most corrupt, worthless politician to come down the pike in many years and sent America to hell in a handbasket. And he's a frickin' war hawk, too.

[tsuki]

8. Day is a jerk. He attended Democratic meetings around here and

would try to break them up shouting the same old discredited crap about Kerry, Fonda and the POWs. He's an attorney, and he knew that he was spouting lies.

As for McCain, the Senate covered up the Keating Five affair for him. They have no use for him. That is why he is disliked.

[jzodda]

5. SHRED wonder how you would hold up

for 5+ years in a prison camp with the beatings and torture he endured. Dont blame McCain for what kind of bombs were dropped, which were never Napalm anyway. He was a naval aviator and his missions involved conventional weapons and the bombing of military, industrial and gov targets in the North. What YOU are thinking of was bombing mostly in the south against the Viet Cong by different planes then McCain flew. Having said that, its all besides the point. He was somehow evil for flying the missions assigned to him? You want to hold him responsible for the war which he has said was a mistake over and over..

Who was one of the leading people involved in the re-approachment with Vietnam? Yep you guessed it...John McCain who went back there in the 1990s and even went to see where he was held as a prisoner.

O and to the original poster, why did McCain suck it up to GW during 2004? Well mostly b/c he thought that he would gain points with Repubs if he ran in 08. Its not a good strategy b/c the hatred of McCain among the right wing has grown steadily. My dog has a better chance of winning a primary in the South then McCain does..

[SHRED]

12. Oh 'conventional' bombs

I get it now.
Thanks for clearing up the fact that people died by being blown away and/or maimed "conventionally". Pilots are encouraged to drop ALL their payload targets or not. You can't tell me innocent people didn't die under his plane.

He earned his torture the good old fashioned way by bombing a country that did not attack the USA. Much like Iraq.
Do you support the Iraq invasion?

I do "blame" McCain for taking the coward's way and following a corrupt government adventure overseas. The REAL HEROES were those who saw the folly and stayed home to take it to the streets where they were beaten, tortured, and killed right here.

Fuck McCain!

[RPM]

19. He was just doing his job.

Hmmmm, where have i heard that line before...

[tanyev]

3. I've started wondering just how many politicians

old Poppy got compromising photos of over the years. It would explain so much.

[patricia92243]

6. Offered his freedom and didn't take it? Hmmm. Maybe this was a portent

of his future judgement/point of view.

[jzodda]

7. He made a brave choice not to take freedom

The only reason they offered it to him was because his dad was an admiral. I read the book based on the upcoming movie and from it you get a good idead why he didnt take the freedom. Was partly because he didnt want to seem weak, partly because he knew it would be a propaganda win for the North, and partly because all the men made a pact to leave as one, or none at all. He also mentioned the guilt he would suffer if he left when his friends were all still there.

Its a totally reasonable decision.

The cowardly choice would be to take it and leave your friends behind. I certainly do not know if I would have had the courage to say no to such an offer.

[Cyrano]

9. None of us know what we would have done. However...

many year after the fact, how many of us would have kissed the ass of George W. Bush after his racial references to his child during the 2004 campaign.

There are some things that can not be forgiven.

[nightfox02]

10. McCain is now a power hungry GOP whore

IMHO,

McCain used to have some sense of what his own beliefs were. However, as soon as he realized that the Presidency was in reach he has sold his soul to the GOP. He is as useless now to us as tits on a bull. McCain wants to be President McCain and will shake hands with anyone and everyone to achieve that end. His hugging of the shrub was the last straw. Anyone who would get on their knees like that to someone the likes of which we have not seen since Adolf is all but lost in my book.

[Cha]

11. I think he lost

any shred of dignity in those fives years..how else can you explain being the bush-butt boy?

[pretzel4gore]

14. there are so many gopigs 1000x worse

then mccain....we should remember that mccain probably could have avoided serving, but he, like kerry and gore, did. he spent 5 years as pow and he returned to a situation not of his own making....it's almost instinct to condemn mccain for his stand on bush (i've done it) and demand more of him....meanwhile there are vast numbers of gopigs who hide and partake of all the evils of bushevikism while having never served anything....mccain is frustrating but we have to remember he at least risked his life in vietnam (though dropping volkswagon size bombs on 3rd world villages from 5 miles up seems rather pathetic for someone like mccain on the american gravy train in contrast to what inner city kids and draftees routinely had to go through, and THEY made up the bulk of the dead/wounded) while mouthy punks like limbah-humbug, and cheney, bush etc never stooped to bother...

[Cha]

16. Yes, I know that...but

just because they are 1000x worse doesn't make mccain easy to stomach.

[pretzel4gore]

18. must agree

but a nation of nearly 300 million outta have more choices to stand up to jokers like bush then a burnt out ex pow senator, you'd think...unforunately, politicians are like heads of huge families, responsible for so many, and dependent upon so few (thus mediawhores get involved)

[Loki]

13. He sold his soul for power.

He let the power holders in the repuke party savage the reputations of his wife and daughter and then went begging to be let back in. I have nothing but contempt for him - power is more important than his family and his country.

[aaronnyc]

15. McCain should never be criticized for his military service

You can criticize McCain for many things, but one thing that he should not be criticized for is his service in Vietnam. I find it absolutely sickening that so many are willing to cite the Right Wing lies used against McCain about his time as a POW in Vietnam. He showed remarkable bravery in the face of torture and beatings, the likes of which most of us could never imagine. We should not be making light of the situation which he faced.

I am the first to criticize McCain for his politics, but I will never criticize him for his military service.

[Rebellious Republican]

17. He is a very complicated man, with a very complicated story........

John McCain has a sense of duty that most can not understand or appreciate. I believe he sticks it out with the GOP because he truly believes he can and wants to make a difference ( He is a RINO from a time long gone). Their is more to his story than the POW years. He had the chance to go home before the HANOI HILTON, but he chose to stay and climb back in his jet once he recovered. His story is pretty remarkable.

He has also put everything out on the table for the world to see, and has admitted his mistakes. Before anyone starts bashing someone just because of their political party affiliation, lets get educated on the subject. Lest we are are no better than the GOP, think Max Cleland and John Kerry.

As far as the photo of the burning girl, out of the thousands of sorties flown by the military, the poster must have some knowledge of exactly who dropped that bomb, more than I do.

John McCain also comes from Arizona, the "Clean Elections" state.
http://goodgovernment.org/cleankit.pdf


Yes I am a ex-republican, ex-Naval Aviator, that has flown combat missions (not Vietnam, to early for me, Beirut "83"). I may not be an expert on this topic, but I do know a little about what I am talking about.

So, read on, knowledge is power, this may answer why the GOP hates McCain so much. He is an honorable man and represents everything the Neocon Chicken Hawks are not!


USS Forrestal (CVA 59), 29 July 1967
Forrestal was operating off Vietnam at the time of the fire. A Zuni rocket was accidentally launched on deck (due to an electrical problem), hitting a parked A-4, and igniting its drop tank. The fire then spread to other aircraft, and bombs began to explode on deck. The fire burned for 13 hours, killed 134 crew and caused the loss of 21 aircraft, some of which were pushed overboard before the fire reached them. 7 holes were blown in the flight deck. Repairs took 7 months, requiring complete removal and reconstruction of the aft section of the ship down to the hangar floor. This was the worst carrier fire in postwar years. The ship has carried the nickname "Forrest Fire" ever since. Films shot during the fire are still show in the course of basic training for all sailors.
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/fires/

More of the Forestal story.....
http://forrestal.org/fidfacts/page13.htm



The story has helped protect him from his own faults, his ethical lapses, his ugly outbursts, the abandoned first marriage, because he admits to failures that sound more heroic than most people's successes, and it is hard to judge someone who has made choices most civilians can't even imagine. It's not just that he survived being hung by ropes from two broken arms and beaten senseless; it's that when his captors learned of his famous father and offered to let him go home, he refused unless they let the rest of the prisoners go as well. Such conduct enthralls a generation that aches for heroes and doubts the moral detour it took during the years John McCain was becoming the icon of Duty, Honor and Country. So compelling is the Story that it has helped bring him here, to a dead heat in New Hampshire with the Texas Governor: the man to whom much has been given against the man from whom much was taken away.
http://www.friendsofmccain.com/about/


The Forrestal Disaster
Lt. Commander McCain was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal off the coast of Vietnam. On July 29, 1967, McCain, an A-4 Skyhawk pilot, was preparing to take off on a bombing mission over North Vietnam, when a horrifying disaster struck. A missile accidentally fired from a nearby plane, striking the fuel tanks on McCain's plane. In the ensuing explosions and fire, McCain escaped from his plane by crawling onto its nose and diving into the fire on the ship's deck. He turned to help a fellow pilot whose flight suit had burst into flames. But before McCain could reach him, more bombs exploded, blowing him back 10 feet.
It took 24 hours to contain the inferno on the Forrestal. By the time it was all over, 134 men lost their lives, hundreds more were injured, and more than 20 planes were destroyed. It was the worst non-combat-related accident in American Naval history. After the Forrestal disaster, McCain could have returned home. But he would have none of that. Instead he volunteered for more combat duty aboard the carrier USS Oriskany, It was a fateful decision that would stop the clock on John McCain's life and separate him from his family, and from America, for five and a half years.
In the early morning of October 26, 1967, just 3 months after the Forrestal disaster, Lt. Commander McCain departed for his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam. This one was particularly dangerous. McCain and his fellow pilots were targeting a power plant in the center of Hanoi. As McCain was completing his bombing mission, a Soviet-made surface-to-air missile struck his plane, shearing off the right wing. McCain ejected as his plane spiraled violently to earth. The force of the ejection knocked him unconscious and both of his arms and one leg were broken.
He regained consciousness as he plunged into a lake near his bombing target. Quickly, an angry mob gathered, seeking retribution for the rain of bombs. Dragging him from the lake, they broke his shoulder with a rifle butt and bayoneted him repeatedly. They loaded McCain into a truck and delivered him to the infamous - and hated - "Hanoi Hilton." Denied medical treatment for days, McCain's condition deteriorated badly. His fellow POW's, shocked at his appearance, thought McCain was near death. But they were determined that he survive. And thanks to their care, his health gradually improved.
http://www.americanhope.org/Facesofhope/mccain.htm