Grow Up!

[ruggerson]

I don't usually get pissed off at the ideological purists amongst us - indeed I have leanings that way myself.

That said, the Dems CLEARLY won this round. What did we win? We won what will have to be a grudging acceptance by this demonic White House that they will more than likely have to PRE APPROVE a Supreme Court nominee with a group of centrist Senators, both Dem and Repub.

What that means is that unless this WH wants to lose all credibility with everyone, they will have to send up a moderate/conservative if there is a vacancy instead of a firebrand rightwinger. Because the agreement clearly says, between the lines, that this group of bipartisan Senators will allow the Dems to filibuster a firebrand.

So, today we saved Roe V Wade and Lawrence V Texas for possibly another generation, and the longer both those rulings stand, the more difficult it will be, with stare decisis, for future courts to upend them.

What also happened today is that the religious rightwingers lost big time. Which will undoubtedly demoralize and infuriate them. And what happens if THEIR base doesn't turn out enthusiastically in 2006 and 2008, because they're pissed off? We win. Hands down.

So, grow up. Look at the long term picture. So there will be a couple of more bad appellate court justices. Who cares? We just won the first big battle at the beginning of the end of the culture wars.

[NMDemDist2]

1. good post n/t

[AVID]

2. I'm old, I'm grown, I disagree - nt

[MisterP]

6. no, no, you can't possibly be--

you disagreed!

[ruggerson]

11. With what do you disagree?

James Dobson and the other insane fundamentalists are furious about this deal.

Doesn't that tell you pretty much everything?

[knight_of_the_star]

15. Exactly

If the enemy is unhappy with you, then you are doing something right.

[livinginphotographs]

53. When reproductive rights, gay rights, and labor rights

are at stake, I'd like to do a bit more than just piss off the opposition.

Young, half-grown, and still disagree. Maybe I just have some "growing up" to do.

[in_cog_ni_to]

29. Me too. Old, Grown and disagree. n/t

[merh]

3. Bravo, well said.

Thank you! :patriot:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Inland]

4. Hope that's right.

That the WH knows there are six or so repug senators that are off the reservation and will avoid armegeddon.

[lancdem]

5. On the money!

[The Doctor.]

7. "Clearly says, between the lines"?

Ummm, I agree with a bit of what you say...

but have you not noticed that the Republicans are willing to make anything 'unclear'... especially if it is 'between the lines'?

{oe}- this is clearly a winning strategy by the Republicans. (not that I want to be a wet blanket)

They could care less about Roe v. Wade... the Fundie base is no longer the source of their power. And the fundies won't simply 'give up' just because the Republicans 'compromised'... they'll just spin it to make themselves look more 'reasonable'. The fundies have nowhere else to go to get an agenda through, so they'll keep at it... perhaps in fewer numbers, but again - That's not the source of their power.

It's the F#cking machines!

Elections will never be square again in this country barring some kind of revolt... non-violent or otherwise.

They have what they need to squeeze through the judges they want to from the states they will want them. Then watch who fills those seats in the states where election issues will be decided.

This has more levels, and I am not placated.

[noamnety]

8. a few more bad judges, who cares?

only the people whose lives are affected by their decisions.

only the people who worked all their lives, whose pensions will be demolished.

only the people living in an area where a corporation is allowed to pollute their drinking water.

only the people who get cancer as a result of their decisions.

only the disabled people who find that the judges don't uphold the ADA for all Americans.

only the prisoners that are raped who find that a judge won't give them the right to be transferred, or to have their allegations at least investigated.

Who cares, indeed.

[ruggerson]

13. A Supreme Court justice.

affects a WHOLE LOT more people than an appellate court justice. I for one am glad that we had some Dems in there who were keeping their eye on the ball. It's about the end game, not what happens in the second quarter.

[noamnety]

31. only the second quarter

people will be dying in the second quarter as a direct result of these appointments. That's all I'm saying, and I think it ought to be acknowledged, even if you think it's a worthwhile compromise given the end game.

It's like honoring the fallen soldiers in a war. It's disrespectful to shrug and say "oh well, who really cares?"

[SmokingJacket]

38. I don't know why you're feeling so smug about the SC judges.

As far as I can tell, we agreed not to filibuster, and they agreed not to go nuclear.

So... if they nominate a fundamentalist judge to replace Rehnquist -- then what? Do we not filibuster? We said we wouldn't.

If we do, does that mean they can go nuclear then, since we broke the agreement?

As far as I can tell... our "victory" is symbolic (we "saved" the filibuster, at least until later) while theirs is real: they got their judges.

End result: rules stay the same, we let them have Owens et al.

They're whining because they wanted it ALL.

[high density]

45. Who says the Repubs won't "go nuclear" for the Supreme Court justice(s)?

The "end game" isn't looking very good after how the Democrats folded YET AGAIN today. I keep waiting for them to stand up for something but all I see is the Republicans kicking our asses time and time again.

[rodeodance]

58. my exact question--I do not trust Frist!!

[makhno]

40. Well said

I really hope none of the cheerleaders here tonight have to face an Owen court. Lifetime grief for citizens; lifetime protection for corporate interests.

The Supreme Court is important, no doubt about it, but decisions made in Circuit Court rulings also contribute to the jurisprudence.

[Just Me]

9. Shit! I'm happy!!!

A message was sent to the BFEE/NeoCONs/Theocrats: FUCK OFF!

The Democrats retained the right to filibuster.

The three right-wing judges still have to get a majority vote,...and may not get that vote.

Frist is SCREWED!!!

A coup with Cheney in the lead did NOT take place.

The Republic still stands.

The radical base of the Bushco administration has been defeated!

:woohoo:

[DURHAM D]

10. Thanks for your post - lots of strange reactions on here tonight. eom

[sweetheart]

12. stare decisis

Ok. i accept that that twas the best that could be done given the
circumstances. The alternative was unthinkable and close on.

I'm not happy about those 3 assholes, but i'll eat that shit and
swallow it for a comprimise putting off the firebrands.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s065.htm

[The Doctor.]

22. Yes, the precedent is likely to stand...

And the alternative was tantamount to watching the practice of law change in a decade-long wave of old arguments already decided bubbling back up...

But strategy has nothing to do with the outcome of a single manuever.
Strategy is ledgerdemain.

So while everyone whoops it up and chokes down the excrement they've been handed, the real agenda goes unchecked.

A small tactical victory this was.

[WillyT]

14. Damn... Wouldn't It Be Nice If We Didn't Have To Read Between The Lines ??

And could actually trust the rest of the Republican Party???

:shrug:

[Ksec]

16. It does seem we suffer from constant negativity here

I mean I love you all but the constant negativity tries on my nerves.

I have been lecturing my son on being positive. If y'all dont stop it , youre next.

BTW my 16 yr old son has improved his attitude and its payed off. His baseball coach wants him to pitch now. Hes a lefty with a wicked fastball.

[applegrove]

17. Small victories are victories nonetheless. Doesn't seem to matter

in this whole pile of ****. But it does matter.

[housewolf]

18. What's been forgotten in all this hullabaloo..

It that this is the BEST outcome for the American people!

Honestly, if you think about the horrible partisanship and emnity that would have resulted from a nuclear option vote tomorrow - however it might have turned out - that slowing things down in the senate and refusing to work together - would have been good for the American people?

No... I don't think so.

Escpecially with the country as divided as it is today, a bipartisan compromise where both sides gave something is the best outcome for the country.

And for the institution of the senate.

[The Doctor.]

36. That is an excellent point.

It is a small satisfaction.

But you are correct in the sense that in the short run this is good for Americans. It is too bad so many can't see that, otherwise this could be pressed to a greater victory.

[Fovea]

19. Sorry, I think we won nothing.

This was a sitzkrieg, and the SCOTUS fight will be just as brutal as it would have been, if not more, because when you sign a non-agression pact with thugs you just give them more time to plan operation Barbarossa.

This was the issue to go to the mattresses for. This was the issue that would split the GOP for years. They will corral and beat their moderates into line. They might have fought by our side, but we caved.

By the time the SCOTUS fight happens, they will have 5 Rovian plans in play to whip their cold footed pugs in line. We will have Reid waiving his arms in the breeze.

Put on your party hat, but be prepared to weep later. We have saved nothing with this, IMO.

And I am not only grown up, I am disabled and ill.
Most likely, I will be dying in a few years.
Maybe if I am lucky, I won't live to see King George crowned.

But I think I just saw democracy die in the US.
This isn't a long march a la Mao. This is far more like Chamberlin announcing peace in our time.

[longship]

35. This is exactly the *real* politics.

The nuclear trigger might not have passed tomorrow. That would have been the way to celebrate. Those seven Republicans stood up today against their leadership and against the President. But you are correct. They will be whipped into line by the time the SCOTUS nominee comes to the Senate.

The next time the terrorist branch of the Repugs wants to hold the Senate hostage to their radical ideology they won't wait before pulling the trigger. Then, we'll think back to today and consider how it might have gone if we had stood ground and fought them instead of cutting the deal.

[AuntiBush]

39. Agree, completely. And I'm as Grown-up as I wanna be at this point.

Disabled widow here. Pension went from fully-vested to zilch. Know how it feels. You're on the sad dime, realpolitik.

Rove must be a genius. :puke:

[xultar]

20. Some of the purists may be fakers, or wolves in sheep's clothing.

Once you look @ it that way it makes it funny.

[KittyWampus]

21. OM G! Coming From Ruggerson, No Less! Excellent.

:toast:

[chlamor]

23. Another loss-You shall see quite soon the 'fruits' of this 'victory'

when you get used to aiming so low illusions of victory are easy to come by.


And the War rages on-And extinctions mount-And the beat goes on...


Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule – and both commonly succeed, and are right.

– H.L. Mencken

"That we are being propelled in the direction of Brave New World is obvious. But no less obvious is the fact that we can, if we so desire, refuse to co-operate with the blind forces that are propelling us.

For the moment, however, the wish to resist does not seem to be very strong or very widespread."

-- Aldous Huxley

[markus]

24. An astute and adult approach to argument

That said, how is the White House compelled to get a sign-off from the centrists?

We've just agreed, in principle, to accept the most radical of the current set of appellate nominees, as a baseline for what is exceptional and not exceptional.

By this agreement, we would have to accept one of these nominees to the Supreme Court, or violate the agreement and leave the GOP free to change the rules.

All the happy talk or sniping at those of us will disagree do not change the central fact: we were rolled.

The centists believe they are still operating with collagues who somewhere share a certain set of common values. In a narrow sense (inside the room with the Gang of 12) perhaps they are. But in the broader sense of the Republican Party, they are not.

I share no more common values with Dr. Frist than I do with Mullah Mohammed Omar.

[saltpoint]

25. ruggerson, I zoomed in on what you say about the fundies losing tonight.

I think most of us felt that the way things were going lately, the fundies would just keep ringing up victories until they had every single U.S. Senator by the short hairs.

Tonight the tide turned. McCain, whom they hate passionately, brokered the deal that brought their white knight Frist to his knees. They didn't get their way and they are pissed as hell.

I love it when they're pissed as hell. I love it more when dangerous and oppressive points of view like Jim Dobson's are brought up short.

It wasn't a perfect deal but it's a deal that will slow Dobson's campaign to shove Jesus down everyone's throat.

Nice post.

[cry baby]

26. yes sir!

I'm happy with it. I'm happy Frist looks bad, I'm happy freepers are peaved, I'm happy Roe has a better chance to stand for another generation, I'm happy Dobson will be unhappy, and I'm happy that these senators told * he should talk to them first before nominating a right wing freak.

I am not moderate, but I don't care if the moderates brokered this deal. We win this battle for now.

[walldude]

27. Grow up?

So with everything that has happened in the last 5 years you are going to tell me you actually think we won something here? You think we aren't being setup for something worse? I wish I had your optimism, I really do, but the rug has been pulled out from under my feet so many times I have to follow the old saying, Fool me once, uh.. shame on me... uh... Fool me... Can't... Won't get fooled again... I'm plenty grown up, what I'm not is a fool..

[Eloriel]

28. I've seen optimism before, but you're downright delusional

We won what will have to be a grudging acceptance by this demonic White House that they will more than likely have to PRE APPROVE a Supreme Court nominee with a group of centrist Senators, both Dem and Repub.

Oh, yeah, that'll happen. (Is the temperature in hell dropping or something?)

What that means is that unless this WH wants to lose all credibility with everyone, they will have to send up a moderate/conservative if there is a vacancy instead of a firebrand rightwinger. Because the agreement clearly says, between the lines, that this group of bipartisan Senators will allow the Dems to filibuster a firebrand.

You seen some pigs sprouting wings or something?

If these moderate Senators found no problem with the three they pre-approved, I don't hold a lot of hope for any improvement in Bush's picks.

What also happened today is that the religious rightwingers lost big time.

Yeah, the didn't get quite EVERY fucking THING. Whooopie.
So there will be a couple of more bad appellate court justices. Who cares? We just won the first big battle at the beginning of the end of the culture wars.

Well, I care, for one. But you MAY be right about the culture wars -- tho in no way do I consider this a win for OUR side. If anything, it's a wild tangent and sideways slide for some moderates in the Senate who MIGHT flex their muscles some other time in the future now that they've figured out they really do have some power when operating together. Might.

[ComerPerro]

30. One thing, though: In case you haven't noticed, this WH doesn't care

about credibility.

They don't have to.

Honestly, I am disappointed with this deal because I don't trust Bush or the Senate Republicans.

Not one bit.

I think its just a setup. They will exploit it.

[Mr_Spock]

32. I agree with you more or less

We made our point and the minority still has it's voice.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. No win, why?

They would've gotten through anyways. The democrats sold their soul's to the devil and the Hitler reincarnate. I have a bad feeling in my gut about this and my feelings never lie to me. I hope it's wrong though.

[kohodog]

34. There won't be a major shift no matter who replaces Rehnquist

It's the next one that will make a bigger difference to the court because a more liberal justice is more likely to resign after Rehnquist. Hopefully this will give the republicans pause, but the filibuster needs to be saved for the nominee who will tip the scale, in my opinion.

This was a big day, hopefully with regard to the restoration of democracy. To flat out vote down the nuclear option would have been more satisfying, but was not a sure thing at all. But sanity prevailed and we can still fight another day should it come to that.

[autorank]

37. Preach brother! You happen to be right.

This compromise places the defining entity as the "individual Senator." You know what that is, the "unanimous consent" procedure that underlies the Senate.

We win, they lose...(and now for a little immaturity) Fuck Them!!

NEW LEADERS FOR A NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY

[saracat]

41. Then Sen. Feingold needs to "grow up " too! He doesn't see this as a

great "deal" either!Read this and weep!
Statement of Senator Russ Feingold on Tonight's Decision Regarding Judicial Nominees and the Filibuster

May 23, 2005

This is not a good deal for the U.S. Senate or for the American people. Democrats should have stood together firmly against the bullying tactics of the Republican leadership abusing their power as they control both houses of Congress and the White House. Confirming unacceptable judicial nominations is simply a green light for the Bush administration to send more nominees who lack the judicial temperament or record to serve in these lifetime positions. I value the many traditions of the Senate, including the tradition of bipartisanship to forge consensus. I do not, however, value threatening to disregard an important Senate tradition, like occasional unlimited debate, when necessary. I respect all my colleagues very much who thought to end this playground squabble over judges, but I am disappointed in this deal.

http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/statements/05/05/2...

[eridani]

42. Not knowing in any depth the history of Senate tactics--

--I can only hope you are right. We'll see soon enough.

[okieinpain]

43. excellent post..

[understandinglife]

44. Hope you're prepared to do a bit of growing. Reality:

Senator DeWine: ".... we of course reserve the right to do what we could have done tomorrow which is to cast a yes vote for the constitutional option."

http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=946

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3715663&mesg_id=3715663

As I've posted elsewhere, you're hooting and cheering for a smarmy but simple and elegant gotcha - the 'extraordinary circumstance' qualifier is just that, a trap.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3713991&mesg_id=3715065

And, it couldn't be more transparent except, of course, for nut-jobs like Dobson (someone, undoubtedly, has been dispatched to explain it to him in monosyllabic terms).

200 years of an exquisite mechanism by which the minority retains a role in the republic has been set upon the most 'hair' of triggers, and the first Senate member of the minority to claim 'extraordinary circumstances' will be the Senator who trips the trigger.

I'm sure you will find this a growth experience.

Peace.


www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[bloom]

46. #$%$#&%

...between you and person in LBN telling people to Shut the Fuck UP...

- well - telling people to "Grow Up" does not invite discourse.

Nominations indeed - sheesh - we didn't win anything.

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[girl gone mad]

48. Yes, it is insulting. n/t

[BillZBubb]

47. No, I believe I'll throw up.

The naivette of your post is astonishing. We saved nothing. There is nothing prohibiting the Repugs from using the nuclear option later, and they will to get a Bush wacko on the Supreme Court. They'll get floor votes on all the Bush nominees.

You, being the adult you are, probably believed the Repugs IWR language that specifically called for "all non-military options to be exhausted" before Iraq was attacked. They wouldn't lie. Now, being the grownup around here, you also believe they won't go nuclear when it suits their purpose?

What a joke.

[Az]

49. Winning: How to measure what we won

Compare what we have today with what he had the day before.

We still have the filibuster but the right learned they can threaten us and make us scurry like sheep by threatening it. The fact that we took their threat seriously gives them power.

We had to concede 3 judges we wanted/needed to stop.


In balance we didn't win anything we didn't already have. In fact we lost ground compared to the day before. The right got 3 judges, they learned they can scare the bejeezus out of us with the nuclear option, and the moderate repubs that sided with us are likely to pay a high price. All in all we took a beating and won nothing.

[mzmolly]

50. They got a VOTE on 3 judges.

A vote.

[Deja Q]

51. A 'round'? What the hell is this, playing pacman at a video arcade?!?!?!

But that is precisely WHAT it is.

A game.

A game to them.

One they and their sponsors always win.

[Lannes]

52. Before we can move forward

We have to stop them from pushing us back.I think we did that with this deal.Doesnt mean they wont try again in the future but at least we have stopped their forward momentum.Now if the Dems can start pushing their own agenda forward we will be in better shape.

[Disturbed]

54. I'm all grown up.

7 Repubs have to agree that a nominee is under the concept of "extraordinary circumstances" meaning way out of the mainstream. If they do so then no filibuster is needed. If they don't agree then the Dems cannot filibuster. How is this compromise a win for Dems?

[preciousdove]

55. I was raped so I should be happy because I wasn't killed?

(And now the people who gave me over want me to shut up?)

1. If they had the votes they would have gone through with it anyway.
2. They still can bring out the nuclear option for the SC.
3. The Senate Parliamentarian said that this action was "illegal".
4. Definitely would have put us in a Constitutional Crisis and force the issue before those in this country who vote but are ignorant but this was one sentence in the evening news with no commentary.

We won nothing.

[porkrind]

56. I am grown up, and I would say to you "Wake Up!"

Lets recap:

Repubs: We want to do something terrible!! (appoint Nazi judges)

Dems: We don't approve! (might filibuster)

Repubs: If you don't approve, we will do something criminal to you! (dismantle senate rules)

Dems: OK, We're scared. We now agree.

Repubs: We got our way! Now we get to do whatever we want. Fuck You, America and Dems!

Dems: Yay, We win! Please don't hurt us!

[Generator]

57. One thing I've learned

Is the happy shiny people really believe it's a win.

The unhappy juveniles like I only wish to hell and back that you are right. If only. Please please be right. I'd be happy to be a kid if that is so. I just don't feel in my old bones.

I said time will tell. So did DEAN! But really, if you look at it how can you win something that should be yours by rights? It's impossible to win anything-it's called avoiding being totally robbed blind. But that's good as long as you can guarantee me we won't be robbed tomorrow. And you can't. That guarantee would have been a win. A real certifiable win. That going nuclear is not only wrong but never going to happen because it's just not the American way. If you had that guarantee for these three judges then that would be a win. What we have here is the "hope" of a win.

Keep your doors locked.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Justice Owens agrees with you. As will the ones to come.

Without a peep from our glorious "leaders" after their glorious "victory".

[nonconformist]

60. I'm a grown up who is hardly a radical left purist

In fact, I was quite the little cheerleader for unity before the 2004 election.

That said, I totally disagree.

All this reminds me of the IWR apologists....

And you might care if one of those shitty appellate court justices was deciding on a case involving you.

[spanone]

61. Grown! Thanks.

It is all about the Supreme Court.