Is sexual abuse endemic in the RW Christian community?

[Jackpine Radical]

After all, they all got these incredible sex hangups, and a whole lot of them have been exposed as pedophiles in recent years. They tend to be fixated at early stages of emotional and cognitive development, given to tantruming in public like Rush and believing in things like an all-powerful, anthropomorphic God, while rejecting any complex, nuanced ideas such as evolution. They seem to have attachment disorders of various kinds, and as a result display little or no ability to take the perspective of others. They clearly don't understand the Love part of the Jesus message. They seem to have internalized harsh-parent introjects, which makes it possible for them to countenance wars, executions, and torture of innocents.

And they rely on DARVO as a primary strategy.

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for 'Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender.' The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.

www.leadershipcouncil.org/Justice/BLOG-MJ/blog-mj.html&e=9707

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. When one is repressed they tend to use repression on others as a tool

[Bluerthanblue]

2. in a word...

....yes, and many 'fundies' are from 'independent' churches, that answer to no "authority"-

You'd be amazed at the statistics that are hidden in quiet out of court settlements-

[Melodybe]

39. Kicked and nominated! Hey this is a good topic it should be in greatest.

two more folks and this thread is there.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

42. There is a HUGE correlation between child molesters and fundies

.

[supernova]

3. Well, sexual repression sure is

Repression is always unhealthy.

And the thing is, the bible they so inerrantly love, isn't *that* repressed. David kills Bathsheba's husband, then there's The Song of Solomon. And Sara Abraham and Hagar. :shrug: I don't know where they get it from, honestly.

I'd have to see staticistics on whether they are more sexually abusive than we are. I don't know if anyone collects such numbers.

[Bluerthanblue]

7. the statistics i have

been told about come from those insurance companies who 'cover' independent christian churches-

As i said in my post above, there is often no 'heirarchy' to the 'denomination' No authority (other than God) that the church must answer to, unlike the Catholic Church.

Funny about David and Bathsheba- read about David's son TAMAR- it'll make your heart sick- and Lot's daughters, who 'seduced' thier father to get pregnant- or the man who sent his concubine out to be repeatedly raped, only to find her near death on the doorstep the next morning- he then cuts her body into 12 peices, and sends them off to the 'leaders' of the other nations- Not to mention that if your daughter is raped, and not 'engaged' then the man who raped her must marry her- (lucky girl) eh???

yeah, i'm bitter- and angry at the way 'god' is used to hurt- and abuse.
And, sadly, while the poster who works with abuse victims may not 'see' many 'religous' clients, that may indeed be because as 'christians' we are told to 'forgive' and 'let go, and let God heal us'-

Truth-

[supernova]

12. Again, is that

all fundy, independent churches, or a particular subset of them?

You have to look at these churches in relation to other denominations. Do they have a greater percentage of instances of this deviant behavior than say us Presbys, or the Methodists, or the Catholic church.

Only if you could find a greater percentage of independent Fundy churches who wound up with this behavior than other denoms could you say the teachings might hav had something to do with it.

Even then, that begs the question of whether its the teachings, or are sexual deviants naturally drawn to more authoritarian types belief? Perhaps in an effort to control, or gulp, "cure" their behavior?

Otherwise, you have to say that this particular deviant behavior is in the population as a whole, and that particular religious leanings have nothing to do with it.

[Bluerthanblue]

28. link here- Protestant Abuse

to a good Christian Scientist article-

<http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.htm>

snip:
Dr. Shupe suggests the 70 allegations-per-week figure actually could be higher, because underreporting is common. He discovered this in 1998 while going door to door in Dallas-Ft. Worth communities where he asked 1,607 families if they'd experienced abuse from those within their church. Nearly 4 percent said they had been victims of sexual abuse by clergy. Child sexual abuse was part of that, but not broken out, he says.

James Cobble, executive director of CMR, who oversees the survey, says the data show that child sex-abuse happens broadly across all denominations– and that clergy aren't the major offenders.

"The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this problem is even greater with the Protestant churches simply because of their far larger numbers," he says.

Of the 350,000 churches in the US, 19,500 – 5 percent – are Roman Catholic. Catholic churches represent a slightly smaller minority of churches in the CMR surveys which aren't scientifically random, but "representative" demographic samples of churches, Dr. Cobble explains.

Since 1993, on average about 1 percent of the surveyed churches reported abuse allegations annually. That means on average, about 3,500 allegations annually, or nearly 70 per among the predominantly Protestant group, Cobble says.....
<<<<<<snip

[supernova]

30. This seems to support what I've been saying

that it is endemic to us humans, no necessarily the churches wo go to.

[Bluerthanblue]

33. more prevelant in

any situation where there are children put 'under' the authority
of bigger- more powerful and 'supposedly' 'trustworthy' adults-

Churches, Clubs, Camps, Schools, Sports, ...... families- Babysitters-

that's abit more 'specific' than 'humans' in general- but seems to point to humans in 'leadership' or 'authoritarian' positions-

from the link-:
"The problem, Cobble says, is that churches are the perfect environment for sexual predators, because they have large numbers of children's' programs, a shortage of workers to lead them, and a culture of trust that is the essence of the organization."

(sorry, this issue is a 'hot button' topic for me- i am no longer a 'silenced 5yr old' and i will scream to the world, for those who still are- and sadly will be)

Closets are suffocating places.

[supernova]

34. I happen to agree with you

humans in 'leadership' or 'authoritarian' positions

Actually, the rule seems to be adults in positions of authority. Again, I don't see any correlation with specific doctrine.

I am sorry for your travials, however. :pals: I hope you have gotten the help you need. My SiL was also a victim of abuse.

[SouthernDem2004]

4. I would say no and here is why...

I have been dealing with sexual abuse victims at work for a long time. I see no trend relating to religion. Sick people are just sick people regardless of their religious beliefs.

Check out your local sexual offender registry. You will be shocked how many there are. Are most of these people religious? Nope. Sure they claim to be Christians but that does not make them so.

[Jackpine Radical]

8. I've done psych evals of 400-500 offenders (at a guess)

in the past 15 years or so & to the extent I was was ever aware of their religious leanings, I would say that literalist fundie views prevail. But I would also say that those views prevail among the entire criminal population, regardless of offense type. (When's the last time you heard about a Unitarian jail ministry?)

As for your references to the sex offender registry, I don't seem to recall it supplying information about "religious leanings." In any case, the SO reg is a composite of rapists, pedophiles, exhibitionists, & 17-year-olds that got their 15-year-old GFs knocked up. I do know, though, that certain professions have higher-than-average propensities for pedophilia. Among these are cops & fundie ministers. I don't have the reference on the tip of my tongue, but I know it's there.

[SouthernDem2004]

11. Ok, gotta call you on the Police bashing. Give me one link proving stating

that or stating such a thing.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

14. Here's a good one

http://www.californiaaggie.com/article/?id=7490

A bunch of jail guards raping a drunk college girl. There's your hero cops.

[SouthernDem2004]

15. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Also,

jail guards are not Police.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

16. Eventually

One party won't have room for the two of us. Until the great common enemy is vanquished, I'll agree to disagree.

[SouthernDem2004]

18. Huh? Your first post was completely off topic. What are you talking

about?

Room for the two of us? You mean the Democratic Party is going to expel people that make off topic posts on DU? Little harsh I would say. Do not worry, I will fight to keep them from excommunicating you!

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

24. It wasn't off topic

You said you didn't believe law enforcement officers sexually abuse people, and challenged someone to provide a link. I did.

As long as democrats keep embracing the law and order mentality, the only thing that keeps me in the party is how odious the Republicans are.

[SouthernDem2004]

38. You are still confused...

The thread is about pedophilia.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pedophilia&x=21&y=12


Your post is off topic. Once again, JAIL GUARDS ARE NOT POLICE.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

43. Eh, whatever.

If you think a middle-aged COP raping a 21 year old isn't the moral equivalent of him raping a 17 year old, you are the confused one.

[SouthernDem2004]

55. He is not a Cop, he is a jailer. Check your dictionary or something.

www.m-w.com Will make your life easier.

One more try at trying to explain what pedophilia is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Good luck.

[MsTryska]

66. I'll support you in your statement.....

only because it happened to me, when i was a young thing.

[Gyre]

50. A CO is NOT a cop.

A CO is a correctional officer. No more than a jail guard. No special training required, no peace officer status. Pretty much the lowest of the low in terms of law enforcement hierarchy.

The accused in this case were NOT, I repeat, NOT police officers.

Gyre

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

54. All the same to me

I got to spend the night with these very assholes for not having an ID. I was released without any charge after several hours of verbal abuse. To me they were the cops in the jail and they were utterly odious in their behavior. Their behavior reflects on my opinion of all law enforcement, and I was not even vaguely surprised when their alleged crime came to light.

Okay, I'll be as technical as you want me to be. Wasn't Justin Volpe an NYPD cop? He raped Abner Louima in the anus with a nightstick.

And people say they're surprised when they hear what goes on at Bagram, Gitmo, and Abu Ghraib.

Oh wait, that's different because this thread is about "pedophilia," and it's not as not okay to rape adults because children are our tomorrow or some shit.

[SouthernDem2004]

56. A quote from one of our greatest Presidents:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

-Abraham Lincoln

[Cooley Hurd]

58. Actually, here in NY, CO's get as much training as police do...

...and carry a badge, and are considered "peace officers."

[Jackpine Radical]

19. I haven't turned up such a link as yet.

I know my source is from pre-internet days, so I'll have to dig a bit deeper. Incidentally, I did find references to a lot of sexual abuse & coverup among the Mormons, for whatever that's worth.

[SouthernDem2004]

20. The problem is that it is everywhere...

In a country where the majority are Christians the majority of sickos will be Christians. Just goes without saying.

Police have a high rate of alcoholism, domestic abuse and suicide but I have never heard any mention of sexual crimes. Some people have problems coping with a high-stress job. It can be hard at times.

[me b zola]

29. Okay, now I have to call you on 'it'

"Police have a high rate of alcoholism, domestic abuse and suicide but I have never heard any mention of sexual crimes. Some people have problems coping with a high-stress job. It can be hard at times."

Actually, people with abusive personalities seek out certain jobs/professions. Police do not become abusers because their job is high stress, rather authoritarian personalities, control freaks, & bullies are drawn to some criminal justice jobs because it feeds their pysche. Charles Graner (sp) of Abu Garaib (sp) infamy is a classic example of this. He was more than happy to oblige the 'contractors' wishes to brutilize the Prisoners. Not all of the other guards participated, and one of them "blew the whistle". His civilian job was a prison guard.

Peoople do not abuse their spouses/loved ones because they are "pushed" or under stress---those are just their excuses. Clergy & little league coaches don't abuse children beause the child did something to encourage it, which is often claimed.

Because someone says something that is not flattering about some cops does not make it cop bashing. Because someone says something that is unflattering about some clergy that does not make it religion bashing.

[Tansy_Gold]

36. It's not that the profession makes them that way, but rather that they

are that way to begin with and are attracted to the profession -- at least, I believe that's the explanation/logic behind some claims regarding spousal abuse, etc., and occupations such as police officer, etc. (Also why some, even a tiny minority, of firefighters are pyromaniacs: they just love fire.)

So it's not that being a a fundie preacher makes one a child abuser, but rather than the personality type that is inclined to become a child abuser **may** find the occupation of fundie preacher attractive: ability to have unquestioned authority, to be perceived as close to "god" and so on. Similarly with Catholic priests -- the job has its attractions to those who have a predilection for abuse.

[me b zola]

59. You said everything I tried to say, only much better

Abusers of all stripes seek out occupations to 'feed their needs' to abuse.

[crispini]

67. Correlation vs. causation.

Very nice explanation of the difference! :thumbsup:

[SouthernDem2004]

40. Reply:

Causes of Domestic Abuse:
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.htm#causes
http://www.nccafv.org/spouse.htm#Why Is Domestic Violence So Common?
http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/dap/img4.html

Could go on but have not the time. Stress and alcoholism are key causes in Domestic Abuse. Not the only of course but key causes none the less.

Well, I have to go to work.

Peace

[anitar1]

52. We had 2 cases a year or so ago here. Police officers

demanding sexual favors from women, threatening them ect. Some of the women were prostitutes or had been in truble before. This had gone on long term for both of them. Both were brought to trial and sentenced to prison. One received quite a long sentence, the other 4 years, I think. Thepoint is, they used their authority to bully and abuse, preying on women. Their fellow officers knew what was going on, but one does not rat on a brother officer. We are still fighting for cicilian review but their union resists it and the police chief does not want it either. Lots of stuff to cover up there, IMO. These men were totally disgusting,subhuman creatures.

[SouthernDem2004]

Correct, there are numerous cases like the ones you mentioned.

Its the pedophilia I question.

[SouthernDem2004]

57. Correct, there are numerous cases like the ones you mentioned.

Its the pedophilia I question.

[Gyre]

51. I don't believe you.

I'm a criminal prosecutor and have done a number of SVP trials, and ground through lots of sexual assault cases. Have had expert psychiatric witnesses testify for me dozens of times. Have read up on the RAZOR equation in predicting sexual recidivism and I have never heard that either cops or fundie ministers have any greater proclivity than anybody else.

Gyre

[Jackpine Radical]

63. And I've been an expert witness in many sex offender cases.

I certainly don't mean to suggest that there is a relationship between careers and sex offender status such that you could or should use it in court as a predictor of future behavior like a MNSOST or RRASOR. I assure you I'd never be making the assertion in court that someone poses a substantial likelihood of re offending just because he's a snake-handler or something. For one thing, there is the whole base-rate problem.

The RRASOR is a pretty primitive tool, BTW, based mostly on number of prior offenses.

As long as we're on the topic, there's a lot of difference between differential risk of offending and of RE-offending, and many people make some rather foolish assertions based on insensitivity to the difference. For example, although most offenders have histories of victimization themselves, once they have committed a sex offense, their status as a victim or non-victim does not determine whether they are likely to re-offend. I have heard people assert that this proves that there is therefore no association between having been a victim and committing a sex offense.

Some other time I could go on a rant about the 1980 Monahan study that supposedly "proves" that clinical judgment is ineffective as a predictor of criminal reoffending. There's a huge bait-and-switch trick in that study that you might find interesting.

[RC]

10. Just who is a Christian and who gets to decide?

"Check out your local sexual offender registry. You will be shocked how many there are. Are most of these people religious? Nope. Sure they claim to be Christians but that does not make them so."

[eleny]

5. The latest which includes animals with children

http://www.thehometownchannel.com/news/4503872/detail.html

"The Hometown Channel.Com KHBS/KHOG, Louisianna
UPDATED: 1:59 pm CDT May 18, 2005

PONCHATOULA, La. -- Sheriff's deputies in Louisiana made a third arrest Wednesday in the ongoing investigation of a case involving allegations of sexual abuse of children and animals at a Ponchatoula, La., church.

Austin Aaron Bernard III, 36, was arrested on a charge of aggravated rape of a child under the age of 13. Police said Bernard confessed to detectives that he had sex with a young girl in November 2002 and admitted to knowing about sexual acts involving children and a dog that occurred at Hosanna Church."

[BrklynLiberal]

6. Authoritarianism, repression, domination, shame, and fear. The perfect

breeding ground for just about any perversion you can name..and a few you probably would rather not.
That kind of environment is to sexual perversion what a dark, damp, muddy basement is for mushrooms.

[MountainLaurel]

27. Ding, ding, ding

Several years ago I read an excerpt from a book on child molesters, in which the author interviewed several individuals from jail. All were repeat offenders who had finally gotten caught.

I remember that one of them mentioned he specifically sought out children raised in authoritarian households. He'd walk around the neighborhood, the grocery store, and the mall, and observe how the parents and children interacted. Why? Apparently children in these households made the perfect victims: They had been taught since birth to obey an adult no matter what, and were usually so afraid of getting in trouble with their parents that he knew they wouldn't tell. Also, throw in a little of the "you're a sinner" crap and no clue of what normal sexual behavior is like (beyond, it's a sin until you're married), and the children usually would blame themselves for the abuse.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

9. One thing you can say is...

That it makes a convincing cover. When any movement is starting to fray, it is when it finds itself shot through with those who have gravitated to it for just the power. No real affinity for it's aims, just for the power. Those that are tend to use that power for self-gratification.

A great example is the heyday of union corruption.

But do not paint all in that movement with a wide brush: there are come who do hold to the moral tenets they aspouse. I am fine with that as well. I just don't want them jamming their morals down my throat, My morals are between me and my higher power. My ethics are between me and other people.

Sure would like to hear more discussion about ethics.

[supernova]

13. You've got that right

It's the perfect cover to be seen as a fine, upstanding member and role model of the community .

[Bigmack]

17. I realize this isn't a medical...

forum, but are there any books/resources that deal seriously about the topic of fundies and child sexual abuse?

[Bluerthanblue]

22. i know of one....

...i'll see if i can locate it- It speaks about 'churches that abuse'- "Toxic Faith" is what comes to mind off the top of my head- it wasn't exclusively about 'sexual abuse' but it did involve a church i'm aquainted with, - and that abuse WAS child sexual abuse.

i don't mean to say that 'fundies' are the most abusive group in society, anymore than Priests represent a 'higher than normal' propensity to abuse- BUT it is often people in positions of AUTHORITY- or in situations where they are placed in power over others, that is often a 'breeding ground' and a 'magnet' for those who abuse.

i'll search for the book-

[Bluerthanblue]

25. HERE is a link

to several books on 'restoration'

<http://win-edge.com/Restoration_Ministers_Resources.shtml?PHPSESSID=bcb1f640332ff07e184583734187306c>

[Hubert Flottz]

21. Excuses ! Excuses ! Excuses ! Where is the do gooder Hatch?

Senator Hatch of Utah is one of the main do gooders in the GOP and is a member of this church! I seem to remember what a HUGE federal case he lelped to make over Bill Clinton's "deflowering" of that sweet and very young Monica L! So why can't Senator Hatch do anything about things like this in his own state, even in his own church? Here's what I mean...

Hope For Child Brides

Turning a blind eye to the abuses ocurring in Hildale, UT and Colorado City, AZ has, sadly, been the status quo for many of the politicians in Utah and Arizona. They don't want to be bothered with it; they don't want to acknowledge it; they claim they can't do anything about it; or they say its someone else's problem. This also seems to be the attitude taken by the Canadians regarding the "Sister-sect" in British Columbia. Below are some prime examples of this situation. These news articles are listed in chronological order ...

It's A Felony, But Polygamy Isn't Prosecuted In Arizona
By Tim Molloy
Associated Press
Originally published August 12, 1998


PHOENIX (AP) - Gov. Jane Hull says polygamy is illegal. So does the state constitution. But that doesn't mean Mrs. Hull is doing anything to stop men from taking multiple wives in Arizona - or that she can. None of Arizona's elected officials have done much of anything about polygamy laws since 1953, when a midnight raid on the tiny polygamist community of Short Creek turned voters against Governor Howard Pyle. Arizonans were shocked at the sight of hundreds of children being taken from their families in the night and dozens of men dragged off to Kingman on charges ranging from bigamy to statutory rape. Pyle said the raid cost him his 1954 bid for re-election. Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt reopened the polygamy debate last month when he said it might be legal under the First Amendment's guarantee of religious freedom. He quickly backtracked from that and said that polygamy was in fact illegal but that it would be as impossible to prosecute as sodomy or cohabitation, which are also crimes in Utah and Arizona. Read more


Utah Paying a High Price for Polygamy
By Julie Cart
Los Angeles Times
Originally published September 9, 2001


Law: Child abuse and welfare fraud are part of plural marriage's toll. Still, there is a reluctance to pursue lawbreakers. Hildale, Utah -- A declaration of war it was not. But in Utah, where polygamy has been a persistent but submerged issue for generations, no governor had so much as whispered a public opinion on the topic before. So when Gov. Mike Leavitt asserted last May that "polygamy is against the law" and polygamist Tom Green was sentenced last month to five years in prison, it appeared to signal an unprecedented crackdown on multiple marriages. With the Winter Olympics only a few months off, image-conscious public officials are starting to talk tough about a crime that law enforcement officials have routinely ignored. But it remains to be seen if the tough talk will translate into action any time soon. Read more


Canadian polygamists let off the hook — again
Government says the polygamy law violates religious freedoms
By Frank Stirk
Christian Week Canada
Originally published March 5, 2002


VICTORIA, BC—The British Columbia government will continue a decade-old policy of not prosecuting polygamists, at least until the law forbidding multiple marriages has been reworded. An internal review completed last month re-affirmed the stance taken by the previous NDP administration that the statute—Section 239 of the Criminal Code—violates Charter protections of freedom of religion. "Faced with these legal opinions we will be seeking an amendment to the Criminal Code," Attorney-General Geoff Plant told Vancouver's The Province. To Rowenna Erickson, however, this refusal to enforce the law is "very disappointing." A co-founder of the Utah-based group Tapestry Against Polygamy (TAP), she says the province is ignoring the reality that women trapped in a polygamous "marriage" suffer appalling abuse. "Polygamists are every bit as bad as the Taliban in the way that they treat women," said Erickson in an interview from Salt Lake City. "They use them as property, they barter and trade them and they force them into marriages at very young ages." Read more

http://childbrides.org/excuses.html

Groups Airing 'Utah's Dirty Little Secret'

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy84.html

Utah polygamists moving into Idaho Panhandle

http://www.magicvalley.com/weeklyfeatures/religion/index.asp?StoryID=7815&PubDate=2005-4-23

There's some of that famous GOP "morality" making this a far better world for the "GUYS ON TOP OF THINGS"! GOP = Greedy Old Perverts?

[Finder]

23. Closed communities seem to have higher numbers...

whether they are religious, familial, communal. Also, the crimes are seldom reported to authorities outside those communities. In the bible it says it should be handled within the community.

[kiki]

26. Not just sexual abuse...

...this DARVO thing pretty much sums up the mindset of the modern American war-monger... "they attacked us"; "they hate us" et cetera et fucking cetera...

[Jackpine Radical]

45. Thanks for noticing the DARVO part of my post.

The claim is that DARVO is a common response pattern in victim/perpetrators of sexual abuse. Callled on being perpetrators, they retreat into what therapists call "victim-stance," and when that doesn't work, they'll go for your throat.

[Project_Willow]

69. Thanks for mentioning DARVO

I was trying to describe perp-as-victim behavior to someone, and I didn't know there was a name for it.

[bobthedrummer]

31. The RW is horribly sexually repressed and extremely homophobic.

There are some bizarre pathologies in that crowd.
Rituals too. Survivors have been speaking out in increasing numbers.
There are survivors support groups.
http://www.aches-mc.org/
http://www.mindjustice.org

[Project_Willow]

70. thanks

bobthedrummer for mentioning those. I wonder if/when those atrocities will become common knowledge?:shrug:

[mvd]

32. When you hate others, you tend to hate yourself.

Not a constructive atmosphere, and I know there's a high rate of hypocrisy. So I think you're onto something.

[NNN0LHI]

35. Wait, let me ask Jim Jones...

[H2O Man]

37. Hmmmm, now ....

these are the folks that think sex is not to be enjoyed, and that God put sex here as both a temptation and as something evil. What are the chances they are going to have anything even close to a happy healthy sex life?

I always will remember around 1969, Yoko Ono saying if she could have had Adolph Hitler in bed for a week, she could have made a chipper pacifist out of him. In an interview in 1980, she laughed and said that considering her experience with John, she might need more than a week with Adolph. But she still viewed healthy sexual experience as capable of curing damaged people. She's so on target sometimes that I wish she would be more active in politics.

[Eloriel]

41. I think it's a very large mistake to make this connection

and expect it to explain or contain "all" child sexual abuse. There may be elements or characteristics within the RW Christian community that promote or facilitate it, but it is BY NO MEANS LIMITED TO THIS POPULATION SEGMENT.

The things you CAN say with certainty are:

* Virtually all those who engage in sexual predation were victims once themselves, when THEY were innocent children. Pedophiles are made, not born.

* Those victimized will never be completely "over" the experience. Many (if not most) will live lesser lives than their full potential would have allowed them -- lives that involve substance abuse and addiction, inability to form stable relationships, promiscuity and sex industry "employment," teen pregnancy, criminal activities and other highly dysfunctional behaviors and problems, and so on and so forth.

* A huge percentage of those in prison were abused as children, many of them sexually abused. (Howard Dean implemented a program in Vermont which cut child abuse by 43% and child sexual abuse by over 70% and it was the soul of simplicity, and cheap too at just $100 a child. Called Success by Six, I think, it involves having a social worker or nurse visit all new motbers in the hospital and OFFER -- not require -- a follow-up visit in the home at which point any services the new parents need are provided whether it's parenting classes, job training, etc., etc. And there are people here who don't consider him progressive!)

* Children don't lie about these things -- if a child tells YOU about an incident, believe the child. False reports occur with no more frequenty than with any other crime: less than 2%. The younger the child, all the more likely s/he is telling the truth.

[NNN0LHI]

44. One point Eloriel

This one:

>>>Virtually all those who engage in sexual predation were victims once themselves, when THEY were innocent children. Pedophiles are made, not born.<<<

I have always assumed this was true myself. A few nights ago someone was on TV who claimed to be an expert on such matters and said this was not true. Any idea if there are actual statistics on this or not? As I said I too had always assumed what you said to be true but I would like to see some data if there is some available that you are aware of. Thanks in advance.

Don

[Jackpine Radical]

47. A lot of experts deny the connection. These people often have

hidden motives of their own that generate a need for them to see perps as bad, awful, disgusting people. If I were to play amateur social worker for a moment (I assume I can't play amateur psychologist because of my PhD and license), I might suspect that these experts were drawn to the field by unhealed injuries of their own, and that they have a strong need to punish the perps.

I recall one probation agent taking great delight in informing me that the perp I was about to evaluate had never been a victim. I went into the interview room in the jail to see him, and within 10 minutes he was telling me about his history of having been molested. BTW he had nothing to gain from doing this, and I hadn't even asked him about it at that point in the interview.

[Hello_Kitty]

49. I don't know the stats either

But I do believe that the vast majority of pedophiles suffered some sort of abuse as children. The actual abuse may or may not have been sexual in nature, or it may have been neglect (which has been shown to be even more harmful than physical abuse) but something clearly went awry in their formative years that made them unable to form reciprocal adult relationships and turn instead to children to fulfill their sexual and/or emotional needs. That being said, previous abuse experienced does not excuse any later abusive behavior on your part. These people are making a conscious choice to commit these acts.

[Jackpine Radical]

48. Eloriel, thanks as always for your thoughtful and informed post.

I trust you didn't think I was really trying to explain ALL sexual abuse of kids as connected to fundamentalism. I merely meant to suggest that it may be an environment that fosters and protects it. I think a lot of fundamentalists are unhealed victims, some of whom are perpetrators of sexual abuse, and many of whom are perpetrators of physical and emotional abuse upon the children in their charge. Several other posters have done a pretty good job of laying out the dynamic factors behind all of this.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. The DARVO acronym seems suitable for the R/W as a whole

Not just the sex offenders. Hell, I'll bet it's the Faux News mission statement.

[leftofthedial]

53. I don't know. It seems to be a chronic problem

but you have a death cult, religiously insane zealots, a promise in their particular book that they'll be forgiven for any "sins" they commit, and incredible propensity and acceptance of hypocricy . . .

Maybe we should be surprised that they aren't doing even worse things, like, say, trying to take over the world.

[lateo]

60. That link doesn't work for me.

[preciousdove]

61. Organized abuse of power --

And it spans generations including daughters. How many mothers who have killed their children in the last few years(and the teacher who had the babies with the 13 year old) have been found to have fathers of this ilk?

They keep their kids isolated from places they can get help.

How the organization in institutions continues to operate was shown on HBO in "Our Fathers". I had assumed that after Dallas that the Catholic Church was getting their act together but the Pope-in-waiting intervened. Now it appears they may just stop keeping records and drive the problem deeper.

[Zhade]

62. Depends. Do you consider the Catholic Church rightwing?

I do - well, the leadership anyway, especially under Ratzinger, and he of course helped cover up child rape, soooo...

[Ariana Celeste]

64. Abuse is not a Partisan issue.

I've been sexually abused by both. My SO was physically abused, beaten almost daily, by a man who is a Liberal. While we may see a lot of reports on Republican politicians sexually abusing someone or whatever, that doesn't mean that more Republicans abuse people than Democrats do.

[nashville_brook]

65. watched the movie "Kinsey" this weekend -- it really speaks to this issue

in fact, the movie kinda suffers for it's didacticism, BUT

the movie works with the theme (or subtext) that repression breeds obsession; and obsession often leads to transgression. where there is lots of repression, the sociologist would expect to find more transgressive behaviors.

when you think about it, it's totally banal and funny at the same time b/c whatever sexually creepy way a liberal might imagine the promise keeper jesus freaks, it's probably not even sick enough.

and then you might probe the nature of sexuality itself from a freudian or better yet, reichian standpoint, and a really REALLY crystal clear picture emerges of the right wing/sexually repressed religious fanatic as literally being nothing more than a ZOMBIE, b/c they can't tolerate REAL relationships and are therefore more aggressive and given to Thanatos -- the death urge.

funny you should bring this up right now, b/c my amazon shipment should be here any minute with my splurge on a few Wilhelm Reich books: "The Mass Psychology of Fascism," "Listen, Little Man," and "Ether, God & Devil and Cosmic Superimposition." also ordered "War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning," by Chris Hedges.

so yeah, where Eros is denied, Thanatos tends to take hold.

[Jackpine Radical]

68. Reich--now THERE's a sad story.

Book burnings, the orgone witch hunts, wacko FDA actions, the whole bit. It's pretty obvious he threatened somebody pretty badly.

Edited to add:

Like Velikovsky in a way, but with sex.
(Whether Velikovsky was right or wrong--and I tend rather strongly to the latter view--the Establishment went after him with a degree of viciousness you don't hardly see no more.)

[spooky3]

71. Every month the FFRF documents dozens of Black Collar Crimes

You have to join the Freedom from Religion Foundation to get the newsletter that provides this documentation, based entirely on PUBLISHED reports.

www.ffrf.org

It is appalling how many ministers, preachers, priests, etc., are involved with this activity, as well as with other illegals acts such as embezzlement.