My comment to PayPal

[Samurai_Writer]

After the fiasco with Andy not being able to get his money from PayPal, I decided to close my account with them. Goodbye, PayPal, goodbye eBay. Here's the comment I sent them when I closed my account:

I am closing my account because of the appalling way you have treated Andy Stephenson, and will encourage everyone I know to do the same, and to use amazon's honor system instead.

------------------------------------------------------
Andy, you'll be getting your next donation from me tomorrow, via amazon. Take care of yourself and consider this week ancient history. Tomorrow is another day.

Peace,
Bella

[Spazito]

1. WTG, I so agree with you!

I have been asked to participate in a survey on customer relations/satisfaction via the internet as a result of my phone call to them re Andy and why they were holding up payment and I am going to explain why I am not happy with their service and how malicious people can use their services to hurt honest recipients of my donations.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. They always hold payment. I get paid for my freelance editing through

them and it takes ages for the money to clear.

[kaygore]

2. Yes!!!!

I said in another thread earlier that this could have serious reprecussions on PayPal. It's strange because they don't have to cover lost money (and won't) less the one receiving the money is verified.

Why they did it in Andy's case, I don't know; however, the good thing is that I discovered Amazon's honor system. Amazon is a Washington State company. Andy is a Washington State citizen. Seems like a good fit!

[The Doctor.]

5. What did paypal do?

(I haven't followed this whole fiasco except to note that Andy needs surgery.)

[kaygore]

7. Boy have you missed a drama!

The day that Andy was supposed to have his surgery (this past Tuesday), Johns Hopkins had not received all the money that we had sent (now remember that we were sending money via PayPal, Amazon, through the mail in checks, etc., so someone guaranteed the cost until all the money could be sorted out and deposited. However, the check was on some desk at Johns Hopkins and did not get to the right place in time. Thus, kind souls that they are in the medical field these days, Johns Hopkins canceled the surgery.

This really kicked the wind out of Andy (which he did not need given everything else that he has been through). Beth (sfexpat2000) who has been counting the money as it came in went to work and finally located the check at Johns Hopkins, but it was too late for the surgery. Johns Hopkins rescheduled.

In the meantime, an update on what had happened was posted on DU and some troll insinuated that the whole money drive was a scam. All hell broke lose. Andy, since he had not had surgery yet, was not a patient at Johns Hopkins, and so Johns Hopkins, even with a release from HIPPA rules from Andy, could not release any information because there was none. The fact that the surgery could not be verified only gave the troll more fuel.

Skinner stepped in, revealed that the troll was a troll who had been thrown off DU before, and Skinner pledged to get to the bottom of the whole thing.

While all this was going on, the troll contacted PayPal and insinuated that the [email protected] account was collecting money fraudulently, so PayPal refused to release all the money we had raised. (In all fairness, I guess a person or two had contacted PayPal to get their $10 back--but there was no stampede and I feel that PayPal, since the account was not guaranteed anyway, should have contacted us before they made that decision.)

That PayPal held back the money when Amazon didn't is what people are referring to. Meantime, of course, PayPal is also making money on that money they are holding and Andy is fighting for his life--he doesn't need the PayPal complication!

I guess that's a recap. It may be more than you wanted to know and it may be partially my interpretation as so much was going on and on so many threads until Skinner for a brief time stopped all but one Andy Stephenson thread to get a handle on rumors.

[The Doctor.]

8. Wow, thanks for getting me up to speed.

Well, the hospital administration is culpable for 'misplacing' the check. period.

If Andy suffers any complications because the surgery was delayed, they should be held accountable.

This jackass who interfered on his own is VERY lucky he is not a direct or indirect cause for the surgery being put off... he'd go to jail and lose everything.

Even if the jackass (I don't know his name) had good intentions, it was none of his business to take matters into his own hands despite the obvious trust many others had in Andy.

[kaygore]

9. The troll is evil & here's Skinner's message

Here's Skinner's message. By the way, Skinner finally did work it all out and spoke with Andy and Andy posted medical records, etc. Anyway, the troll had evil intentions. He wanted to cause problems and did:

Many of you have been following the posts about Andy Stephenson's surgery for pancreatic cancer, and a large number of you have been generous enough to donate to the cause. I am touched by how big-hearted this community is when it comes to our attention that one of our own is in need. Earlier today someone claimed that the entire thing was a hoax to scam our members out of their money.

Allow me to be clear: I have my own opinion about whether this is legit or a hoax, but it is only that: an opinion. I do not know the truth. It has long been the policy of Democratic Underground not to vouch for anyone who uses this website in order to raise money, and we have not done so in this case. It is our preference to let our members weigh the evidence, and decide for themselves if they feel comfortable donating or not.

Our policy of not verifying anyone should not be interpreted as a statement about the legitimacy of any claim, including this one. Put yourself in our position. If we say "we think this is legit" then we might help someone in need, but we are personally responsible if it turns out to be a hoax. But if we say "we don't think this is legit" then we might protect people from being scammed, but there is a chance that a person in need goes without help. So, we're kinda stuck.

The problem is made worse by the fact that we all know that the potential for abuse is huge. A group of people just raised a huge amount of money -- twice as much money in two weekends than DU itself raises during any of its week-long quarterly fund-drives. And they didn't even have to provide any proof whatsoever. (Again, let me repeat: This is not a statement on the legitimacy of Andy Stephenson's situation. I'm just trying to be honest about the issues involved.)

Here's what we all know.

Some people have raised a large amount of money -- mostly from the members of Democratic Underground, but also from some other websites -- which they claim will be used to pay for surgery for Andy Stephenson at Johns Hopkins University Hospital. They say the surgery was supposed to be today, but it was postponed.

Earlier today, a DU member by the name of MrNiceGuyDied posted a few messages claiming that he had been in contact with a Dr. Cameron at Johns Hopkins University Hospital, who told him that this was a hoax.

Then, a DU member by the name of qanda started a thread claiming the same thing. The thread by qanda did not mention the posts by MrNiceGuyDied. In the thread, qanda gave the impression that qanda had called Dr. Cameron and was told that this was a hoax.

All hell broke loose. The moderators and I had to step in and lock all the threads.

qanda posted an apology in my thread which said this: "I apologize for starting the thread questioning the story about Andy. I am way too cynical, and should not have been so quick to believe someone who had no clue." So, qanda seems to be saying that their thread was based on the post by MrNiceGuyDied, but that is not clear.

Here's what you don't know.

MrNiceGuyDied is a troll. He was formerly banned from DU under half a dozen other usernames, all of which were heavily involved in stirring up trouble on the BBV issue. There is absolutely no reason to take any of his posts seriously.

qanda sent me a private message apologizing for the thread. After I sent her a rude response (I'm sorry, I was very angry), qanda said that they did in fact call Dr. Cameron. So that is the context of the thread.

Other people have sent me private messages vouching for Andy.

I did not want to share this piece of information, but in light of recent events, I think that DU members need to know that the administrators actually do care about what get posted here. Even though we don't vouch for people, we have been very concerned about the possibility for abuse.

When the goal for the fund drive suddenly changed from $25,000 to $50,000, we started to get concerned. Last week I called Johns Hopkins Hospital to try to verify that Andy Stephenson is actually getting surgery. Every person I talked to gave me the same answer: Federal privacy laws forbid them from disclosing the names of patients. I want to be clear: My actions are not a reflection on Andy or any other members of this website. I was hoping to quietly verify Andy's story myself, and nobody would be the wiser.

Yesterday, as part of my search, I was directed to an individual at Johns Hopkins with the job title of "patient representative". We have been playing phone tag since then, so we haven't talked yet. Given the previous responses, I am pretty doubtful that she can help us out.

Given that this has become an issue, I think we all need to do what we can to put all the concerns to rest

I think that Andy Stephenson obviously wants to set the record straight and clear his name. And I would like to put the concerns of the DU membership to rest. Here's what I propose.

Andy Stephenson and I need to talk this out on the telephone. He needs to somehow release Johns Hopkins Hospital from their privacy restrictions so they can talk to me directly and verify that the surgery is taking place, and verify that it does cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $50,000.

Then, we will report back to you, and all these concerns will be put to rest. I will send Andy Stephenson a private message with our office phone number.

Thank you, everyone, for your understanding as we work our way through this.

[The Doctor.]

19. Gee, it's too bad we can't coax anyone into

giving us the ISP address of this 'MrNiceGuyDied' fellow...


I'm not the usual sort of doctor, and my PM box is always open.

[stickdog]

3. My account is also now closed.

Fuck Paypal.

[Samurai_Writer]

4. Kick for the Friday crowd - NT

[AnotherMother4Peace]

10. Can someone check the donation limit at Amazon, & maybe have it increased

Last Sunday, my $100.00 donation was too much & it did not go through, but they took $50.00 just fine.

I posted this on another thread, but I think the thread died.

The very best to you Andy.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

11. Thread resuscitation time. Warning - if I post on your thread it might di

I have the power.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

12. That was die - for a kick

[juajen]

16. A kick from me too

I would love to know how Andy is holding up with all of this crap going down. Anybody know? Also, when is the damn surgery scheduled?

[Deja Q]

13. Wasn't there ANOTHER case where a murdered girl's family used paypal...

but never got a cent either?

Paypal can bleep off and bleep.

[Eloriel]

14. I don't know, but I have been boycotting PayPal for several years

because of the horror stories I saw and heard PayPal put innocent people through -- not giving them access to their money, not providing any way for them to find out WHY or work to fix it, predatory marketing and business practices, and a self-absorbed arrogance the likes of which you rarely see expressed so blatantly in the business world. I'm not alone:

PayPalSucks
http://www.paypalsucks.com/

Paypal suffers (cough) "intermittent outages" today
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=898241#898416
MSNBC article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6228586/

Edit: And I remember too that Will Pitt posted a thread on DU some time ago, something like "Tell me how PayPal works." He was just looking for the details on how it works in preparation for setting up something for Andy, and later I thought my post about the horrors of PayPal struck a sour note. But now I consider myself vindicated (to myself -- no one complained about my post, at least not publicly).

[Deja Q]

15. Thanks for the link

Nominated topic.

[meti57b]

17. the problem with amazon.com ....

you can only give $50.00 at a time. You can come back and do a second $50.00. After that, it looks like you can't use amazon.com to give to the same person for over a week.

Also, whoever did this to Andy, hurt him very deeply. He took all the hurt. I think we should also consider that the attack was also directed towards the DU community effort to raise the money. Whoever did this, hated the idea that DU could come together in this very large and unique project to raise the money and be of assistance to one of our own.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

18. Thanks for that info - so it's Amazon's policy to limit $ amounts.