Eight Dangerous Myths About Spanking

[redqueen]

Please note that if you spank your children, I am not judging you. I am not calling you a child abuser.

I am only posting this in the hope that you'll reflect on your choices, and take a CALM moment to seriously think about what you're doing. That is all.

Our children are precious to us... they deserve more from us than a simple kneejerk reaction to information about their well-being. Please, for their sake, don't just read this and brush it off. THINK about it.

Thanks,
RQ


Eight Dangerous Myths About Spanking
By Debra L. Stang, LCSW
January 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This article examines and refutes some of the most common myths about spanking. It may be reprinted in its entirety if credit is given to the author and a link is provided to Project NoSpank at www.nospank.net

A few nights ago, I was talking to a friend when the subject of spanking came up. I could not have been more surprised when her first response was, "I can't say I'm totally against it. What if a two year old is crawling for a hot stove?"

This is not an uninformed woman. She and I both cut our clinical teeth working with victims of domestic violence, child abuse, and sexual assault. We have seen over and over the harm and damage caused by interpersonal violence.

Yet for some reason, she is still not able to set aside the old wives' tale which holds that spanking, unlike any other form of hitting, is a benign practice.

I'm sorry to say my response to my friend wasn't a particularly enlightening one. I managed to gasp out one or two rebuttals, but mostly, I just stammered in shock.

The confrontation, and my response to it, got me thinking about the most common myths people use to justify hitting children. In this article, I've examined eight of those myths and I've provided the researched, reasoned responses I wish I'd had ready for my friend.


Myth #1. Being spanked never hurt anybody.

This makes little sense for many reasons. First, the whole idea of spanking is to inflict at least temporary pain. People who advocate spanking are well aware of this. For instance, James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family and unapologetic advocate of spanking, has noted that "pain is a marvelous purifier" (qtd. in Greven, 1991, p. 68). Other spanking advocates have recommended corporal punishment severe enough to leave redness, welts, and even bruises on the child's skin (Greven, 1991, pp. 79-80).

Since most children are spanked on the buttocks-a part of the body they have been told is "private"-they feel shame and humiliation as well, along with an uncertainty about how "private" that part of their body truly is (Johnson, 2001).

But even beyond the mortification and the physical hurt, there is a longer-lasting emotional pain. Among many other negative outcomes, being spanked has been linked to:

Low self esteem (Bryan & Freed, 1982)
Depression (Straus, 1994)
Masochism (Straus & Donnelly, 1994)
Psychological Distress (Turner & Finkelhor, 1996)


Myth #2: I was spanked, and I'm okay.

Most smokers never develop cancer, most drunk drivers don't get into wrecks, and most children who grow up in homes with lead paint do not suffer brain damage. But no intelligent adult would seriously advocate smoking, driving drunk, or using lead-based paint to decorate their walls. There's also one more thing to consider. Most people who were spanked are "okay" in the sense that they aren't in prisons or psychiatric facilities. However, corporal punishment is handed down from one generation to the next. Compared to people who were not spanked, people who were spanked as children are more likely to spank their own kids (Muller, Hunter, & Stollak, 1995). Let's put that in plain English: People who were hit when they were vulnerable children are more likely to think it is acceptable-even desirable-for a fully grown adult to use painful physical force against a small child. How okay is that?


Myth #3: Some children need a good, hard spanking.

Let's look at who really benefits from the spanking. The child? No. Other interventions work just as well in the short term and better in the long term. Furthermore, the spanked child is put at risk for many negative consequences (see Myths 1, 5 and 8).

Rather, it's the parent who benefits, in two ways. First, the parent achieves immediate results-results which could also be gotten through non-violent methods. Second, the physical punishment gives the parent a release of anger and tension-a kind of catharsis. Using a non-violent form of discipline such as time out or even a verbal command ("Don't touch!") will alter the child's behavior just as effectively, but it won't provide the parent with the same degree of emotional release (Carey, 1994).

In other words, parents continue to spank because spanking meets some of their own misguided needs. It does not benefit the child.


Myth #4: Spanking is the best way to stop dangerous behavior in toddlers.

Small children have short attention spans when it comes to long lists of rules. Spanking may stop the behavior in the moment, but not any more effectively than non-violent discipline (e.g., time-out, saying "no," etc.). With toddlers no method of discipline, including spanking, works reliably for more than a couple of hours (Larzelere, Schneider, Larson, & Pike, 1996).

There are only two ways to keep toddlers safe. The first is adjusting the environment (for instance, keeping sharp objects locked away or out of the child's reach, or building a fence around the back yard to provide a safe play area). The second is providing careful, loving, and nonviolent supervision.


Myth #5: Being spanked keeps children out of trouble.

Being spanked has consistently been linked with aggressive behavior (Frick, Christian, & Wootton, 1999), including domestic violence (Simons, Lin, & Gordon, 1998) and cruelty to animals (Flynn, 1999). Jordan Riak, who works with convicted felons, has noted that close to 99% of the men in his groups report being spanked as children (personal communication, 1/9/02). If the goal is keeping children out of trouble, spanking is clearly not the way to go.

There is another problem as well. While spanking may teach some children to avoid certain behaviors out of fear of punishment, it does not teach the child to think about what is right and what is wrong. Rather, it teaches the child to ask, "Will I get caught?" and "Will I be punished?" Spanked children do not learn to measure their behaviors against their own moral beliefs. Rather, they rely blindly on the judgment of those in authority-those who have the power to punish. If the person in authority gives unethical orders, the results can be tragic. It is no coincidence that a society where physical punishment was the norm gave rise to the most shameful words of the twentieth century: "I was only following orders."


Myth #6: Nothing but spanking works on some children.

First, let's look at the child's age. If the child is a toddler, for instance, no method of discipline, including spanking, is going to reliably curb certain behaviors for more than an hour or two at a time. The frustrated parent may get some emotional payoff from the spanking. The child will only be harmed.

Second, were the alternative methods of discipline being used correctly? I once spoke with a client who told me she "had" to spank her four-year-old daughter because the child wouldn't stay in her time-out chair. The length of the time-out? Four hours! No child can be expected to sit still for four hours with no diversion-to demand it is abuse. While it is beyond the scope of this article to discuss the vast number of successful non-violent methods of discipline and how to use them, many parenting websites and books do just that. A quick search of the internet or the local library will provide dozens of effective alternatives to spanking.

Finally, some parents misperceive the actual value of spanking. They may, for instance, spank their child repeatedly for the same misbehavior, but declare time-out or some other non-violent means of discipline a failure when it does not stop the problem behavior after only one trial. The research, meanwhile, is clear: even in the very short term, spanking does not work any better than non-violent means of discipline such as explanation, time out, or verbal command (Larzelere, Sather, Schneider, Larson, & Pike, 1998; Roberts & Powers, 1990). There is no reason to strike a child. Ever.


Myth #7: Spanking isn't hitting or violence-it's discipline.

Imagine this scenario: an aide at a nursing home for Alzheimer's patients discovers an elderly woman poking at an electrical outlet. The aide immediately slaps the woman hard across the buttocks several times, reducing the woman to tears.

Has the woman been hit? Most of us would agree that she has. Has she been a victim of violence? Most of us would agree to that, also. Furthermore, even though there is no permanent injury to her physical being, every state in the United States would define what happened to the woman as abuse. The aide would certainly lose her job and might face criminal charges as well; the facility would be in danger of losing its license.

But substitute "two-year-old" for "elderly woman" and "parent" for "nursing home aide" and all of a sudden, our perceptions change. The hitting and the violence become a "spanking" and even some of the most dedicated child rights activists start referring to the incident as "sub-abusive." Why? The two-year-old is equally hurt and humiliated by the blows; he or she is no better able to defend against them; and he or she is not more likely to get any benefit from them.

The fact that our society has arbitrarily decided to offer protection to one victim and withhold it from the other does not alter the truth: spanking is hitting and it is violent.


Myth #8: Spanking is not harmful if it's done by loving, supportive parents.

If anything, it may be even more distressing for a child to feel loved and supported by the very people who perpetrate violence against him or her. The child could learn to confuse love with violence, or to believe that it is okay to use force in the context of close, loving relationships. Or, the child could begin to feel worthless and believe he or she deserves physical violence.

Not surprisingly, the research shows that the negative effects of spanking persist, even among loving and supportive families. The negative effects that have been studied in the context of family support include antisocial behavior and conduct problems (Frick, Christian, & Woottton, 1999; Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997), teen dating violence (Simons, Lin, & Gordon, 1998), masochism (Straus & Donnelly, 1994), and psychological distress (Turner & Finkelhor, 1996).

The research is clear and has been for some time: Spanking causes harm. No matter how or why it is administered, it is not benign or beneficial. It is physical violence. And, like any other type of physical violence, spanking scars its victims emotionally.

We have spent too many years ignoring the research and accepting the myths about spanking without bothering to investigate them fully. The time has come to confront these myths and stop finding excuses to hit children.

References Bryan, J. W., & Freed, F. W. (1982). Corporal punishment: Normative data and sociological and psychological correlates in a community college population. Journal of Youth and Adolescence, 11, 77-87.

Carey, T. A. (1994). Spare the rod and spoil the child: Is this a sensible justification for the use of punishment in child rearing? Child Abuse & Neglect, 18(12), 1005-1010.

Flynn, C. P. (1999). Exploring the link between corporal punishment and children's cruelty to animals. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 61, 971-981.

Frick, P. J., Christian, R. E., & Wootton, J. M. (1999). Age trends in the association between parenting practices and conduct problems. Behavior Modification, 23(1), 106-128.

Gunnoe, M. L., & Mariner, C. L. (1997). Towards a developmental-contextual model of the effects of parental spanking on children's aggression. Archives in Pediatric Adolescent Medicine, 151, 768-775.

Johnson, T. (2001). The sexual dangers of spanking children (2nd ed.) . Alamo, CA: PTAVE.

Larzelere, R. E., Sather, P. R., Schneider, W. N., Larson, D. L., & Pike, P. L. (1998). Punishment enhances reasoning's effectiveness as a disciplinary response to toddlers. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 60, 388-403.

Larzelere, R. E., Schneider, W. N., Larson, D. B., & Pike, P. L. (1996). The effects of discipline responses in delaying toddler misbehavior recurrences. Child and Family Therapy, 18, 35-37.

Muller, R. T., Hunter, J. E., & Stollak, G. (1995). The intergenerational transmission of corporal punishment: A comparison of social learning and temperament models. Child Abuse & Neglect, 19(11), 1323-1335.

Roberts, M. W., & Powers, S. W. (1990). Adjusting chair timeout enforcement procedures for oppositional children. Behavior Therapy, 21, 257-271.

Simons, R. L., Lin, K., & Gordon, L. C. (1998). Socialization in the family of origin and male dating violence: A prospective study. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 60, 467-478.

Straus, M. A. (Ed.). (1994). Beating the devil out of them: Corporal punishment in American families and its effect on children. Boston: Lexington.

Straus, M. A., & Donnelly, D. A. (1994). The fusion of sex and violence. In M. A. Straus (Ed.), Beating the devil out of them: Corporal punishment in American families (pp. 121-136). Boston: Lexington.

Turner, H. A., & Finkelhor, D. (1996). Corporal punishment as a stressor among youth. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 58, 155-166.

[AVID]

1. I nominated this

Might lead to one more reading and one less "Whoopin' today

[wtmusic]

2. My personal experience

As a kid I was spanked. I always assumed I would spank my kids if I had any.

One night I was over at a friend's house. He had two young kids, and the conversation turned to discipline.

"Yeah, I guess they need a good spanking once in a while," I said.

"They never need to be spanked," he said solemnly, then went on to explain "timeouts" to me. How it is 100% non-violent and the most effective form of punishment because it is exactly analogous to prison time. "They break they rules, they don't participate in our 'society' here," he said.

That made an impression on me, and I decided to give it a try. I now have two kids 8 and 10 and they are models of good behavior. They have not been spanked once.

[BrainRants]

13. OK, so help me here...

...and don't recoil in horror...

We have a three year old and a four year old (both boys) and we've tried the "escalated reasoning" (my term) method of discipline (i.e. Stop it, stop it or you'll get a time out, lose privilege, etc.) and the choices method (i.e. "Do you want to stand in the corner or go to your room?") etc. and we've found that sometimes we run out of options and spanking is the only thing left to get their attention.

We're not talking raw cheeks here, we're talking I need your attention now. When they get one on the butt they know it's time to settle down and start paying attention.

Don't read between those lines, we also find time outs very effective, but only after you have the child's attention. Both boys have also learned what's coming next when Mom & Dad start working their way through the escalated punishment list.

My question is, help me understand how the not spanking technique is possible 100% of the time with boys. I can't speak authoritatively on girls, but lets be honest, boys have a completely different temperament.

-BrainRants (Loving Parent)

[mcar]

25. I have two boys

One is 18 today and the other is 7. We have never spanked either. My older son was a pretty even-tempered, if stubborn, kid and it just never became a question.

The 7 year old, however, can be a handful at times. But, knowing his personality, I know that spanking would be the worst kind of discipline for him.

Timeouts have always been effective for us. We reversed the locks on both our kids' rooms (when the older one was young) so that we could lock them in (since staying put in the time out has been a challenge) and they can't lock us out (something the younger one would do).

I have also found that taking away privileges is very effective. All I have to do is threaten to take away my son's favorite computer game, game boy, TV watching, bike riding, even playing with friends, and he almost always starts cooperating. "I'll put (toy or game) on the high shelf" is usually a threat that gets his attention.

I would suggest not giving them a choice of consequence. I understand the whole choices thing and we do that with lots of issues but when the child breaks the rules or whatever, you're in charge, not them.

They need to know what the consequences will be for the behavior. If they break the rule, they lose x, y or z. It's not their choice, it's yours. If they continue to be non-cooperative, they lose it for longer or they lose more things.

Just my .02.

[BrainRants]

32. Great advice!

We've also done the door locks thing, although we put one of those chain latches on the door which has the added benefit of sound when they're being punished in their room. (Think loud chain sound like in an old prison movie)

Their rooms have no toys (only books) so it truly is punishment to them to send them there. More often than not, once they calm down they settle down with a book, an outcome we truly like.

The choices thing usually makes them stop and think about their actions, but taking away privileges is proving to be very effective.

20/20 hindsight I'm a little disappointed we didn't learn more effective parenting techniques sooner, but we're all learning.

Thanks for the perspective!

[redqueen]

49. I've found taking away privileges to be the MOST effective thing.

Especially if you can use something that they love that they do everyday. The punishment (removal of the privilege) should occur as soon as possible for it to really have an effect.

In other words if you say 'we won't go to the park this weekend' that's not as good as 'you won't play your video games tonight'.

[MissB]

55. And as they get older, involve them in deciding

which privilege to lose.

[mcar]

91. You're welcome

and good luck. I love my boys but it can certainly be trying at times.

Too bad we don't get parent ed like we do drivers ed. :shrug:

You obviously love and support your kids. As far as I'm concerned, you're covering all the bases right there.

[mzmolly]

133. It's great your open minded and reaching out.

BRAVO TO YOU! :toast:

[wtmusic]

93. funny

your experience is the same as my own. We actually put a gate hook on my daughter's door to keep her in there--it drove her nuts. But it worked.

[wtmusic]

92. IMO escalation is not effective

as is "counting", etc.

They break the rules, they go to their room (I've had to physically carry them into their room on several occasions).

Although kids are different, one common denominator seems to be that they can't *stand* being ignored. You have to be very consistent with it, but it does indeed get their attention.

[belladonna]

158. All kids are different

They have different personalities and one may respond to time outs while the other will respond to having a very specific priviledge taken away. All three of my children responded to different methods, and my son was especially trying. The trick for me was to finally realize that there were times when he WOULD be out of control and I wouldn't be able to solve the problem or change his behavior right away.

[barb162]

89. good for you

it very obviously sounds like you are a GREAT parent!!!! Congrats

[coloradodem2005]

3. Very good post. Kicked and nominated.

[JimmyJazz]

4. Awesome post, RQ

Nominated and kicked.

[Taverner]

5. Yes I don't beleive in spanking

At the risk of starting something here, I think spanking is a shortcut which performs a disservice to the child and the parent. Down the road, the child will act out more violently and will have a lower self esteem.

[Patiod]

6. Yeah but "spare the rod, spoil the child"

"The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it."

Good luck getting through to that mentality. You can cite studies galore, show off examples of well-behaved children who haven't been spanked, but you'll still hear "but the Bible says 'Spare the rod'. This from people who don't drink wine even though they are familiar with the story of Jesus at Cana because they understand the story was a PARABLE, but they insist that ROD only means ROD and couldn't possibly mean "spare the discipline"

Sorry, particularly cynical today.

This is a good article for the thinking types that populate DU

[cheezus]

10. the bible also says you should stone your unruly children

hey... that just might work!

the weed would calm 'em down at least! :)

[Patiod]

14. That's like a gay friend who cites Leviticus

when someone quotes at him the bits in Leviticus against homosexulity, he accuses them of wearing two different kinds of fibers.

Amazing how "Bible literalists" pick and choose what to be literal about.

[Pacifist Patriot]

26. Don't give up completely.

I published an hermeneutical exposition on Proverbs 13:24 (link below) and received an email from a woman who told me her eyes had been opened. Just because someone has been indoctrinated doesn't mean they are entirely uneducable. ;)

http://www.unitarianminister.org/theo_507.htm

[Patiod]

88. Wow. Very cool paper.

I agree with your supposition that those of us in more liberal Christian traditions (I'm a Quaker) aren't as familiar with the Bible as we might be.

I was blessed with a religious education from nuns (once a week after public school at the local Catholic school) that was both liberal and facinating. I remember (and I'm not making this up) our 2nd grade teacher explaining that there really wasn't a man named Adam and a woman named Eve who was made out of his rib, but this was a story to help us understand human nature and our relationship with God. And she pointed out that Jesus told a lot of these stories, and the Bible says that these were stories to help us understand His points, and not things that literally happened. That was pretty eye-opening for a little kid.

[mzmolly]

134. I read an article by a Rabbi who said "Proverbs are to be taken ...

Proverbially."

Makes sense to me. ;)

[G_j]

7. I am not a parent

but it just feels wrong to me to teach through inflicting pain.
:shrug:

[Cleita]

8. From a personal note and point of view,

my generation was a spanked generation. I got spanked regularly and so did my classmates and friends. No one saw anything wrong with it. However, it was mostly ineffective. As children, we knew we were going to get spanked for disobedience or doing something anti-social, if we got caught, but we just clenched our teeth and bore it. It was for the most part ineffective.

One day my parents, who were too busy getting ready to go somewhere, to discipline me, decided to punish me by telling me I couldn't go see a movie on Saturday I was looking forward to. OMG! Nooooo! Everyday until Saturday, I hoped they would forget or change their minds. I was on my best angelic behavior then, but they didn't change their minds. The days leading up to Saturday were anxious ones for me. Saturday, came and went and no movie.

My parents had an epiphany, they couldn't get me to behave with the stick, but offering a carrot and withdrawing it for bad behavior did.
Now I don't think the spankings hurt my generation in the long run unless they were beatings, but most parents didn't beat their kids, nor did we grow up to be sociopathic, serial killers, but spanking definitely is a useless way of dealing with kids in my personal experience.

[Patiod]

18. When my parents lost it and hit me, I knew I had "won"

It really gave me a sense of power to make them lose it like that. I thought it was funny.

I've seen the same look in the eyes of a little girl we used to take care of - when we'd lose it and start yelling during power struggles (we never hit her), I saw that same smug "I won" look in her eyes.

Of course, when she did it, we used to think she was a burgeoning psycho. When I did it, it was a rational response to irrational behavior.....

[Cleita]

24. I was never that bold, but now that I think about it,

I remember some of my friends coming out to play after a spanking with an almost gleeful look on their faces, laughing, like they had won something.

[eridani]

146. My parents discovered the same thing

They quit spanking me when they got astonishingly good results by taking my library card away for a week.

[cheezus]

9. What I remember from my developmental psych class

The prof spent some time covering behavior modification, and while I don't remember all the details, I do remember this:

Not only spanking/other hitting damaging to a child, it's also one of the LEAST effective methods of behavior modification (positive punishment)

The MOST effective method of extinguishing a bad behavior is to positively reinforce a behavior that is mutually exclusive with the one you are trying to extinguish

[patcox2]

109. One dangerous myth about college psych courses:

That they are not half bullshit.

[7th_Sephiroth]

11. should we also not mark children's school papers

with a red pen for fear of creating anxiety? or super sterilize everything so he never gets sick or develops an immune system? How about dressing them all up in bubble wrap so they never get a boo-boo?

Life is hard there will be scrapes, and cuts, and illnesses, and anxiety and you people are hypocrites to go around saying "oh no, we shouldn't make them think anything but puppies and kitties" until they reach adult And then its "get a job, leave the house, what? you got sick? too bad either come into work or your fired"

[redqueen]

12. I don't see how your response follows from my post.

Did you read the article?

[7th_Sephiroth]

17. the point is you shouldent shield children

from pain, becuse thats all life isand they will be better prepaired with the occasional spanking and cold, and anxiety

[gollygee]

23. Shielding child from pain and intentionally inflicting it

are two different things.

[7th_Sephiroth]

35. i'm not saying "go around and smack your kids all day"

i'm saying there is pain in life, get used to it now or you will never be a properly functioning adult

[gollygee]

36. Kids don't have to be spanked to learn about pain in life

it's inevitable kids will feel pain in life.

This is a different debate than whether or not spanking is a good parenting tool.

[7th_Sephiroth]

43. it that case i believe it is

there are different forms of pain, he won't like being smacked, and when he realises what he's been doing, and that the other kids dont like it, he will stop

[gollygee]

53. "Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't work very well

if the adult is hitting the child, the lesson the child is learning is that hitting is OK. He/she might *also* learn that hitting hurts, but mainly the child is learning that hitting is ok because kids model their parents' behavior.

[7th_Sephiroth]

61. hitting isonly half

there will also be a stern lecture putting things in context

[chickenscratching]

64. how can one

put hitting in to a proper context

:shrug:

[gollygee]

71. A stern lecture?

how about *just* a stern lecture?

Though I'm not sure if lectures work that well either, depending on the age. It becomes "blah blah blah" after the first sentence or two.

How about if a kid is hitting other kids, the kid doesn't get to play with other kids for a while? Directly related. Kids learn when things are directly related.

[7th_Sephiroth]

73. no, it temporarily removes the child from the situation

or puts him in the same situation with a different kid

[gollygee]

78. Yes, and kids don't like that

kid hits other kid on playground

parent to kid: We are going now.

Kid: tantrum (parent picks kid up and puts kid in car)

Parent: Kids don't like to play with people who hit them. We won't stay at the playground if you hit.

Kid: tantrum

I've done this and it WORKS. No hitting involved and not a lot of talking.

[7th_Sephiroth]

83. what about in the school yard?

the kid, if removed from hitting another kid, will be put in an area with another kid to hit the next day

[gollygee]

85. Don't let the kid play with other kids

ie no recess - and supervise better. Unfortunately, if the kid is learning hitting is OK at home, nothing the school will do will overcome that.

Schools have a lot of problems with regard to supervision, I know. But really this behavior is learned mainly at home and mainly before kids get to school.

[7th_Sephiroth]

74. no, it temporarily removes the child from the situation

or puts him in the same situation with a different kid

[chickenscratching]

62. thank you gollygee

i truly believe that the only progress that is made through spanking or physical correction, is through fear. and for me, that is not appropriate.

"the child is learning that hitting is ok because kids model their parents' behavior"

exactly, many abusees become abusers.

[Chico Man]

148. Is fear, or being scared of something, not a good thing?

Should I just wait for them to run across the street in front of a car or end up in the pond like those two children this week?

Fear is a part of life.

[gollygee]

152. Being scared of *something* - ok; being scared of PARENTS - not ok

kids should not be afraid of their parents.

[Chico Man]

156. They should be afraid of some consequence

If being afraid of how a parent will react if they found out what a kid was up to prevented a kid from doing something stupid, is this not a good thing?

[redqueen]

162. They can be afraid of disapproval... no violence required. n/t

[Chico Man]

166. Afraid of disapproval?

Lol

I was afraid of my mother "screaming bloody blue murder" (in her words, not mine)

[redqueen]

169. Well once you desensitize them to violence

disapproval will lose its sting.

They can also be afraid of losing privileges - very effective.

[Chico Man]

170. Like kids are not desensitized to violence every day

If my older kid really pisses me off, like you know, pulls out my plants, or puts a huge scratch in the side of the car... or just about gets himself killed doing something idiotic, well he will get a pretty good yelling for sure. And I sure as hell would not want to on the receiving end of that.

And he will also lose privileges, get sent to his room for a timeout, etc, and feel the full wrath of my disapproval.

I guess you can say I make sure he thinks before he acts the next time... I don't baby him and he knows who is boss. Is he scared of me? Not usually. But I'd say he scared of what I would do if he pulled out all of my vegetables.

[redqueen]

171. Violence from parents is different.

Does that really need to be pointed out?

[Chico Man]

173. There is a thing called "child abuse"

If a kid shows up to school with a handprint across her face, the authorities will get involved. Happened to a friend of mine.

I broke my nose when I was a kid. Guess what? The doctor tried to blame it on my parents. He was this close to getting the authorities involved.

I'm only trying to say that there are people out there looking for signs of abused kids. When the signs are there, action is taken. Are there mistakes made? Are we human? Yes, and yes.

Denouncing spanking because it is violent is the same thing as denouncing video games because they are violent.

Like those protesting outside of an abortion clinic, anti-video gamers should print large signs of kids hurt by violence and protest outside of video game stores if they really were serious about getting their point across. Likewise, anti-spankers should do the same thing: print large signs of children hurt by violence, caption it "this is what spanking does", and have your voice heard outside of schools across america.

[redqueen]

174. Did you really think I didn't know?

Yeah... I know there's such a thing as child abuse.

Honestly... :eyes:

"Denouncing spanking because it is violent is the same thing as denouncing video games because they are violent."

No, it's really not. Parents hitting children is in no way similar to watching animated fake figures doing violence.

Anti-spankers such as myself will just have to wait until more studies are done, and then start trying to talk to people, again.

What do you think it says about this practice that even in dog training classes owners are told swatting the dogs doesn't work, and they shouldn't do it? What does it say that people still fight so hard to be able to swat their children?

[Chico Man]

175. If they swat them enough...

Then they are abusing their children. Seriously..

There are degrees of spanking... and at what point does it become child abuse? Welts? Hand marks? Broken bones?

Or a light tap on the bum? It is really the "thought" of the work "spank" that keeps kids in order most of the time.

If you are swatting children on a day to day basis and causing physical harm, I don't see how anyone could not call that child abuse.

[BigMcLargehuge]

27. the point is, don't add to the problems of an already harsh world

when raising kids, and spanking does just that.

[7th_Sephiroth]

31. why is there punishment in the first place?

Oh because he disobeyed you, he diddent eat an un-palatable food, so he has done something wrong, honestly, i dont believe in spanking for 95% of the "offenses" wich are just opinion or keeping them from harming themseles, but if little billy goes around punching other kids at school, than perhaps if he got hurt, he would understand what he was doing and stop

[BigMcLargehuge]

34. the only punishement is spanking?

you said -

"Oh because he disobeyed you, he diddent eat an un-palatable food, so he has done something wrong, honestly, i dont believe in spanking for 95% of the "offenses" wich are just opinion or keeping them from harming themseles, but if little billy goes around punching other kids at school, than perhaps if he got hurt, he would understand what he was doing and stop"

which 5% of "offenses" you think warrant physical punishment then, please tell me. Before you do though, remember that children have a much less experienced world view, they don't see consequences the same way adults (even young adults) do.

As for your example of 'little billy" please ask yourself what lesson it teaches to little billy that by bullying the other kids he is in turn bullied by an adult?

[7th_Sephiroth]

37. there is still context

he won't like the sensation of pain, and in tha afforementioned hitting other children, by showing him what getting hit is like, and explaining to him that it diddent feel good, he should fully comprehend what he is doing, and stop

[Occulus]

48. I remember every spanking I ever got

but none of the reasons why.

All I remember are the spankings themselves. Not too lasting of a lesson, was it?

(I especially remember the one time I father used a belt on me. I do not remember why he did that, either.)

[7th_Sephiroth]

68. your parents diddent sit you down

and give you a fairly good reason, did they

[RobinA]

153. I Was Frequently Spanked

for being whiny and generally irritable. It never worked, I couldn't stop myself. Turns out one of the best indictors of childhood depression is - whiny and irritable. In fairness, this wasn't known at the time. However, that doesn't change the fact that spanking didn't work and it doesn't work.

[chickenscratching]

67. he SHOULD

right.
if that's true than many of the people that get abused each day wouldn't grow up to become abusers themselves.
it's a sad sad fact, but for the knowledge i am aware of, hitting teaches that it's ok to be physically violent in order to create change, it causes fear.
why would one want their kids to be afraid of them?

[Chico Man]

168. Is it OK to yell?

Because my son is certainly afraid of my nasty yell.

[RobinA]

151. Nope

This isn't going to work. The "showing him what it's like" myth is utterly fruitless, as kids don't think like that developmentally until they are much older. My mother was big on teaching kids not to bite this way. Kid bites another kid, bite the kid "to show him what it's like." Completely ineffective, kid doesn't have the cognitive ability to put things together this way, kid couldn't care less if he hurts the other kid, she just taught the kid it's OK to bite.

[redqueen]

54. I strongly disagree.

IMO, our job as parents is to shield them from pain. We are their only refuge. They'll experience enough pain from others.

What did you mean by 'and cold'? If you mean that being emotionally cold to your children is a good thing, I don't agree with that, either.

As for anxiety... telling your child they will lose their favorite video game or toy or computer time or whatever for a week is anxiety. That's a fact. I wholeheartedly agree with that kind of anxiety.

However positive reinforcement is a MUCH better way to encourage good behavior.

[Inland]

77. You shouldn't shield children from the pain you are about to inflict.

That's why I only paddle bare bottoms. It's a good *smack* lesson on *smack* the way the *smack* world WORKS, dammit *smack*

[readmoreoften]

135. And tons of fetishists have orgasms from bare bottom spankings

and most admit to having experienced them during parental punishments. Hope your 'bare bottom discipline' isn't having secondary effects.

Good luck.

[Inland]

138. If it teaches them to pick up on sarcasm, it'll be worth it.

I'm not sure how spanking would help in that area, but God knows I would rather raise a fetishist than someone who reads too literally, so it's worth a smack or two.

Good luck.

[readmoreoften]

140. Hey there are plenty of people with all kinds of conservative

practices on this site. When you say you bare-ass paddle your kids, if you don't put that sarcasm sign there, I'm gonna take you at your word. I have no reason not to.

[Inland]

141. Well, you had plenty of reasons not to.

But next time I'll send up a flare.

[Book Lover]

177. See, here's another problem

Life is NOT all pain. I spent nearly a decade in a mental shithole of my own making because I thought life was supposed to be painful. Life has pain in it, and I'd be remiss if I kept that fact from my child, but life is also painless, happy, carefree, warm and breezy, with the occasional chocolate ice cream cone. And I would be remiss if I kept *that* fact from my kid as well.

[Lindacooks]

15. Your comparisons are not valid.

Not hitting someone is not the same as not correcting mistakes. You're comparing - it's more than apples and oranges, you're comparing apples and peanuts.

INFLICTING pain on someone is very different from protecting them from pain.

[7th_Sephiroth]

19. its not a comparison

its a list of the ridiculous other things that come from the same mindset of the article, i was pointing out a hypocracy

[Maddy McCall]

21. Discuss this article, not your presumptions about people who...

don't spank their kids.

[7th_Sephiroth]

30. its not so much as a presumption

as its the shit i'm reading in the news, and i am discussing the topic, but i'm also bring in other aspects of "sensitive parenting"

[Lindacooks]

33. Those things you list are not part of the 'same mindset'

Since when is it hypocritical to not spank, but correct tests?

How is it hypocritical to not spank, and sterilize baby equipment?

And it's spelled 'hypocrisy'.

[7th_Sephiroth]

40. you got my post all wrong

i'm not compairing spanking with those actions, i'm grouping them together and pointing out your different attitude with children and adults on basics like illness and asshat bosses

[Cleita]

16. Our job is to protect our kids, teach them and give them

the tools they need to become productive adults. In the protection zone, all parents will warn their kids about crossing streets, and doing things that are attractive but dangerous for them. This is not being overprotective, but keeping them alive. We punish them when they disobey us. It really is for their own good. So I think your bubble analogy doesn't work here.

I myself grew up in a mining camp and the dumps were attractive to the kids because of the pretty rocks we could find there. The problem was that if you dislodged a rock, an avalanche could come down and kill you. The dumps were forbidden to all kids. Don't suggest a fence, this was a huge mine and the dumps went on for miles. Anytime any of us were caught in the dumps we got spanked, but the Lorelei, siren's song of the pretty rocks always drew us back.

So, our parents weren't trying to be overprotective, they knew they could lose us, so when we disobeyed it was a serious matter. They weren't being overprotective at all.

[Maddy McCall]

20. Lemme guess. You have no kids.

But you threatened to kill your neighbor over a cat. Sounds like, according to your logic, you're overprotective of your cat.

:shrug:

[7th_Sephiroth]

29. my cat has more value to me than a child, honestly

i have never liked children and that neighbor is a psychotic bitch so i laid it on a little thick

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. Thank you.

That post of yours explains the others wonderfully. Although not in the way you intended.

[7th_Sephiroth]

41. *groan* no one understands my point

my original post compaired treatment of the harshnesses of life to childred and how it change when they hit that magical age of 18, if you protect your children from every harm in the world and then expect them to live on thier own at 18 its not gonna happen

[MsUnderstood]

51. I understand your post. . .

You can't avoid pain so why not give your kids a taste of it before they go out into the real world.

I think my kid experiences enough pain from asshats who think being mean has to be a fact of life. I don't need to add to it by training her that everyone, including me, is going to be mean.

And when you kid needs you, because they did something wrong like drugs, underage sex, drinking at a party, they aren't gonna come to you because they know you respond with violence.

They way you treat your kid at 5 is what they are gonna remember at 15. You disipline by discussion, cause and effect (rather than yelling and violence) then you have a better chance of helping them through the teenage years.

[7th_Sephiroth]

66. actually most of the time i advocate talking over spanking

but here are just some cases that needs spanking AND talking

[redqueen]

72. Please answer... did you read the article? n/t

[7th_Sephiroth]

75. yes

i found it verry much like propaganda

[redqueen]

81. Well of course it is a form of propaganda.

It's information used to sway other towards my point of view.

That doesn't mean it's not well-researched. This isn't just someone saying that they feel this way because their parents taught them to, or that it's the best thing they've found so far that works. This is data offered by a professional social worker, citing numerous works by professionals who were concerned enough to research and write books aobut it.

Could you please point out your specific disagreements with Myth 6?

[wtmusic]

95. Based on what?

There are no cases that need spanking. #2 above.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. Unreasonable, excessive "protection from harm" IS problematic...

but "you shall not spank" hardly qualifies as it.

[redqueen]

58. You can't protect them till they're 18.

You're starting out with a false assumption.

They will be hit by other kids at school. They will be hurt lots of time before they're 18.

Care to try again?

[H2O Man]

86. People understand your point.

But it is not the best option. There is a lot of hate in the world. Will I innoculate my children by hating them? Will they be better prepared for humiliation if I humiliate them? You are partially right: the world is tough, and children should be prepared to deal with life. But there are better options than those you are advocating. Indeed, by building on some of your points, we can see that in order to help children grow into adults who do not think violence is the acceptable language, and who speak with hatred dripping from their tongue, we need to prepare them properly -- without violence, hatred, and humiliation.

[roguevalley]

124. there was a woman on the daily show who wrote a book examining

the self esteem culture that we are all drowning in. I agree with her that there is too much sheltering going on. Kids aren't learning that life is about meeting obstacles, some of them painful and overcoming or adapting or living with them. Bullies have great self esteem. Its been proven in study after study.

Kids go out and find out that they don't have the tools for meeting life and making a life. Parents do too much. They do many things wrong. As a teacher for nearly 3 decades, I agree. Damn. I wish I could remember the book. It sounded brilliant and something I think every parent should read.

She said the Girl Scouts have an 'un-stress badge'. SIGH. Good grief.

[redqueen]

154. She's an idiot.

What exactly is wrong with an 'un-stress' badge?

[roguevalley]

123. I agree. I remember a staff meeting where a newbie teacher

talked about turning game day into a non-competitive set of activities. My kids were BORED out of their minds. This 'self esteem' crap really is something else. It makes reality a hard thing when adulthood intervenes and wilts all the posies around some kid who never had to truly stand up and do something.

[Pithlet]

172. Yes, because we all fear

our bosses beating us if we're late for work or don't get our project done on time. Or our spouse will beat us if we make them unhappy. Keeps us all in line!

Your post makes no sense.

[minkyboodle]

22. time outs suck

I remember as a kid wishing my parents would spank me instead of giving me timeouts ;) If I have kids I'll definitely be doing the time out thing as it seemed to work for everyone I know whose tried it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. I remember asking my parents to spank me and get it over with..

that sitting around "thinking about it" was excrutiating.

[mzmolly]

142. LOL. Glad your sticking to timeouts.

:hi:

[Andy_Stephenson]

38. Spare the rod spoil the child...

you liberals will never learn.

:sarcasm:

[redqueen]

60. Hi Andy.

Hope you're doing well. :hi:

[Andy_Stephenson]

76. I am ok...dreading the surgery

but once it is over...I will be fine.

[Kazak]

42. Bravo!!

You've posted what I wanted to post yesterday, but didn't have the resource...now I do! :thumbsup:

[redqueen]

63. I posted it in another thread. I'm glad someone mentioned

that it deserved it's own thread. I agree... I'm glad you found it helpful.

Thanks. :)

[Misunderestimator]

44. Great post, redqueen! Thanks for posting it.

:thumbsup:

[JNelson6563]

45. Thank you for posting this

I hate to see progressives advocating for regressive childrearing tactics.

Julie

[demgurl]

46. You forgot another myth......

Spanking is abuse. Spanking is not abuse at least not in the eyes of the law. Just like like abortion may be murder to some people but it is not murder to me and not in the eyes of the law.

I have always thought I would have been a better child if only my Mom had spanked me. And when she was at the end of her rope and took me to a psychiatrist, I told him that as well. Yes, she was very nonviolent and never spanked me. I was totally out of control and should have been spanked. She would punish me but I would still break the punishment. I was once she bad that I drove her out of the house and when she went she did not take her keys. Yep, I locked the door and watched her in the cold snow standing outside and freezing.

But Mom was so good that she never would spank me. Only no TV which I would watch the second she went out. Or go to bed early and I would hide in my closet, with a light, and read a book. She didn't even get physical when I was throwing a lamp at her! Did she get physical with me when I pulled her hair and left welts on her head? Of course not, spanking is wrong. No, she took me to a doctor who quickly gave up after one session saying I was only interested in going to get time off school.

I would have been ten times better off if she only would have spanked me and taught me a lesson. Why on earth would she not do that one simple thing? Oh my God!

Now I have kids and I will admit I try not to spank but I know, from my experiences, that sometimes it is not avoidable. When you have begged and pleaded with the child. When you tell him to sit in time out and he looks at you and says 'no'. When you threaten to call his dad and he says he will sit. You turn your back on him for seconds - just enough time to do one dish in the sink and he flings the chair he was sitting on at you. This is a six year old.

This is not a child who has been let run wild his whole life. And for the most part he is an example for other kids. We try to punish him creatively. For instance, when he bit his brother, he made it up by saying he was sorry and by cleaning his brother's room.

When he marked up the classroom easel last year, we brought him back with comet and a rag to clean it up.

This is not a case of people who have never had control of a child. But we even have to keep an eye on him when he is in time out. five times yesterday he started to play while in time out. It is hard to keep a constant eye on him while making supper. He is within ten feet of me but it is still hard.

I had to wait for his dad to come home last night because instead of doing his homework, he insisted on drawing pictures OVER his homework. I put a stop to it and had him in time out. I had him start again and he went back to drawing. He would not be controlled through time out or just telling him to do it. I left him in time out until his dad got home. (15 minutes later)

We are not the types to let our child get away with anything. We caught him wrecking his room and he is sleeping on the couch until he can prove he can earn back his room by respecting property. This means he has certain chores to do each day to prove he can contribute and keep up the house. Until he finishes, he has no room.

I have maybe spanked my children 5 times between the both of them. Perhaps I should have done it more, but I really try to leave that as a last resort and not one for when I am angry so I take it out on a poor defenseless child. It is not right to spank a child to take out your frustrations. It is OK, according to me and the law I have behind me, to spank a child as a legitimate punishment.

[Cleita]

59. We, of the spanked generation, seem to have gone in the

opposite direction and given our kids too much undisciplined largesse.

I myself never had kids but I noticed this with my friends. The minute they had kids, the kids took over, even with the most igregrious behavior. Manners were never taught, let alone bad behavior punished.

I think your mom should have punished you for those things you did to her to let you know that you weren't in charge, she was. Hitting, no, but a good punishment that you couldn't get around, yes.

As for your own kids, you seem to have swung back to the other stricter side of the discipline pendulum. Since I never had children, I have no advice to offer, but hope you find a middle ground somewhere.

[redqueen]

70. She could have controlled you in other ways than spanking.

Just because she didn't find the method that worked, doesn't mean that spanking is the only thing that would have.

"Now I have kids and I will admit I try not to spank but I know, from my experiences, that sometimes it is not avoidable. When you have begged and pleaded with the child."

Let me stop you right there. If you do that, you are GIVING them control. That's a very bad idea because it reinforces the bad behavior. Insted you should tell them that you will do x if they continue and if they do, then you do it. Forget time outs if they're not working. Take away his favorite posession. If he has no favorites, take them all away. You know your child better than anyone. Figure out his buttons and push them. He sure knows yours.

Another bad idea is to threaten to call another parent. That shows the child you can't handle the situation. You're giving them power, control. Kids pick up on these things instinctively. They test their power constantly.

Have you considered that he thought throwing the chair at you was acceptable because he's been spanked, and therefore shown that violence is OK?

[demgurl]

90. I am not sure if he ever remembers being spanked......

I know it has been at least three years since I spanked him and those were swats in his diaper. I only call threaten to call his father when I am at the absolute end of my rope and ma doing it in frustration - rather than something like spanking. I will do it on my 'bad' days. I was in a very bad car accident and when I get stressed my back tenses up. I do not have health insurance any more and therefore I do not have hydrocodone or vicodin to help with the pain of my bad days. It is terrible to be at the end of your rope and on top of it all to have your back spasming in pain.

I do try to handle everything on my own as I do realize it diminishes my parental role in the relationship. I have even restrained him on occasion. So, you see, I am not one to lash out and hit my child because of my own pent up emotions and how mad I am.

We have 'found his currency' and we know where to hit (not literally) him for punishment. This means that we know what toys and games to take away and we do do it and stick to it. His dad and I always keep up a united front and we do our best to make sure our kids have the most positive outlook we can give them. Heck, I have been praising my son six times a day for popping in the toilet. (my younger one)

I have thoughts on abuse and I was very frustrated at my younger son for not being toilet trained. We tried bribes and Cheerios and everything else we could think of. It was very important he get toilet trained since he is going to school this coming year. The last thing was to stick him on the toilet and leave him there. My husband suggested this but I felt that that may be abuse. I made a special appointment with his doctor and talked to him. We went over everything we had done to get him to use the toilet and the doctor said that if our son was younger he would suggest other things but at this point he is making a conscious decision to poo in his diaper. I pointedly asked if it was abuse and he said no that that was fine. Within two days he was pooping. I still feel bad but I did check it out with the doctor.

I guess the thing I am trying to stress is that I am very much against child abuse. According to the law spanking is not child abuse. I do not think it is child abuse, but does that mean I do it every week or even every year? No. We are truly trying to find different ways to punish him and we did locate his currency to try and do that. I do not call spanking abusive because to do so would be to call anyone who does it abusers. I have seen real child abuse - one where the child tried to commit suicide in MY house! (it was my nephew who did not want to go back to his mom!) The law does not think spanking is abuse (when you do not leave a mark) and it dilutes real cases when things are referred to as abuse when they are not. It is hurting cases where people are truly hurting their children. It gives the public an easy out to shurg stuff off because we are being frivolous with the words.

[redqueen]

96. I'm so sorry to hear about your pain.

I hope you can find some way to alleviate it soon. No one should have to live in pain. Shameful that our society allows it...

As for abuse... I don't call spaking 'child abuse', but I do call it abusive. Big difference.

You sound like you're responsible, caring, loving parents, and I wish you the best of luck dealing with your little troublemaker. :)

[demgurl]

105. Thank you....

It is nice we can converse like this. I just picked my 'little trouble maker' up from school and we immediately had a 'fight'. More like a disagreement really. His teacher sent home his journal for the day and it had pictures all over it instead of sentences - just like what he did yesterday with me., I explained he would do that tonight along with his other homework. He said no! Assertive, isn't he? lol. I explained that he would do it. He said his teacher did not say he had to. I explained that I was saying he had to. He said no again and I immediately took away some of his currency. He said he was sorry and he would do his work I said that was great but you can not say you are sorry just to get out of a punishment. He cried, whined and begged and then stopped when we got home. I really do care and I really do cry.

Perhaps because of the abuse within my husband's family, I stayed home rather than have my kids cared for by someone else who may hurt them. I knew they could not talk for several years and I was not willing to take the chance. There have been times when I have almost broken down because I am so frustrated and I walk out of the room and cool down. It is never good to say anything in anger or even punish in anger. It is OK if you are not upset, imo. But a lot of times you give a harsher punishment than necessary if you do it in anger.

My kids never had a babysitter for the first three years of their lives. My husband felt I went overboard but I said I would not see them abused by someone and not able to defend themselves. My kids had not spent a single night away from home until this year. (they were 4 & 5 then) I can count the number of times they have had a babysitter on two hands. Now that they are older and bale to speak and express themselves I will be able to let them go out more and my husband and I will as well. The well being of my children has always been at the forefront of my mind especially with all these shaken babies in the news.

I wish I did not have the pain, but I have gotten pretty used to it after seven or so years. It is just as well that I do not have meds because I would not feel right taking them around the kids. If I am drugged up, who would drive them to the hospital in case of emergency? It would be nice to have at night so I can sleep without pain at times, but that is when my husband is around and could drive or handle whatever could come up.

[redqueen]

106. I'm the same way

No babysitters for me, thanks.

I can't believe he throws 'no' out so often. Have you tried focusing on that? That he just can't tell you 'no' because you're the parent?

And you're so right about anger... you can't show your children it's okay to act out of anger at all, ever. There's a book I read that addresses that kind of thing - "How To Behave, So Your Children Will, Too". :)

[demgurl]

107. I might have to read that book.

Believe me, we have really tried addressing the 'no' issue. At first I was just dismissive. My favorite line used to be that this is a dictatorship and not a democracy. I explained it would be a democracy when he got out there and started paying his bills himself. I also explained that we are the parents and what we say goes.

All of that felt like we were not respecting him as a human being. (gee, I sound a little like a bleeding heard liberal!) I have tried to teach him that he needs to treat everyone, adults and children alike, with respect. Besides stating these facts, we also punish him.

We try having 'the talk' with him like we did the other night when he hurts his little brother. We always explain that he is the older brother and as such he is responsible for watching out for his little brother. We tell him that when we are gone, that is the only immediate family he will have. We also try to explain that when he hurts his brother he is telling him that that is the way he wants to be treated. We explain it makes it harder for us to punish his little brother when he is teaching by example.

We have so many talks and we truly try to be rational in our speeches. We do not talk down to him but we also do not talk over his head.

It is truly an awesome responsibility to raise a child. We try so hard and our kids are so very smart. We are working on our state senators as well as government officials when we sit down to supper every night. They are amazing. I love them very much.

[mzmolly]

144. Read any book by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka

I read her first one, but I've heard rave reviews about this book as well:

Kids, Parents and Power Struggles helps you to unravel the mysteries of power struggles by offering insights into individual differences and normal patterns recognizing that every child is unique and every discipline situation is different. In a new light Kurcinka views power struggles as an opportunity to teach your child essential life skills, such as how to calm herself, to be assertive rather than aggressive, to solve problems and to work cooperatively with you and others.

Included are successful strategies for:

* understanding emotions
* managing intensity
* identifying triggers

Hard as it may seem in the heat of the battle, conflict really does present an opportunity to connect with your child – for a lifetime.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

47. I'm really tired of all this spanking hysteria from the last two days...

Posting this isn't going to change anyone's mind. Save your energy. In case you've forgotten, this is GD. I doubt anyone has been swayed either way by a post in GD. Sorry. I'm just sick of all this fighting that doesn't accomplish anything but us fighting amongst ourselves. We aren't republicans. Leave the petty shit them. We're more intelligent and should be uniting instead of finding crap to divide us even more.
Duckie

[Stuckinthebush]

52. Concern about violence toward children is petty?

Interesting.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

56. Oh please.

Spanking is not violence when it is done by most parents. And you freaking know that is not what I meant.
Duckie

[Stuckinthebush]

65. Not violence when done by a parent?

Parents have a special status of not being violent when using force to inflict pain on another human?

Sounds like mental gymnastics to me.

What you meant in your original post is that people will never have their minds changed about this subject, so it is foolish to discuss it. I disagree completely. Some people have never had a rational discussion about the drawbacks of spanking and they very well may get a great deal from the discussion.

[lateo]

120. The mental gynmastics...

Equating all spankings to violence against children...now...that is some mental gymnastics.

A swat on the behind to get their attention is NOT the same as taking a wooden paddle and beating them until they cannot sit down. The swat is a corrective action the paddle is abuse. Do you understand the difference?

[sonicx]

127. the degree of violence is different, but it is still violence.

Slapping an adult in the face is violence, so is shooting them in the leg. The degree is different, but they both are called violence.

[lateo]

149. I disagree

vi·o·lence Audio pronunciation of "violence" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (v-lns)
n.
1. Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing: crimes of violence.
2. The act or an instance of violent action or behavior.
3. Intensity or severity, as in natural phenomena; untamed force: the violence of a tornado.
4. Abusive or unjust exercise of power.
5. Abuse or injury to meaning, content, or intent: do violence to a text.
6. Vehemence of feeling or expression; fervor.

See...the definition of violence states that it is about abuse, damaging , violating...

A swat on the behind applied w/o malice as a means to get the child's attention doesn't have to be violent.

[redqueen]

79. I appreciate your opinion, but I certainly don't share it.

In my opinion, violence is not petty shit.

I know others are saying it's ridiculous to call spanking violence, but it is what it is, IMO, and I'm starting to believe it's at the heart of a lot of problems with society.

You may think this isn't going to change anyone's mind and you may be right, but I have to try.

This isn't 'crap to divide us'... this is an important issue. If you don't agree that's your right. I felt that way about the far more numerous pope threads. I never found it necessary to waste my time with something I wasn't interested in just to rant about how useless I thought it was. If you find them that irresistible, there's always the hide thread feature.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

117. The difference is that I don't see spanking as Violence.

:shrug:

[mzmolly]

143. I bet the spankee does.

:(

[Stuckinthebush]

50. Spanking is violence

against ones own child. We have three children who have never been spanked. Their behavior is wonderful. Time outs work if applied consistently.

I remember an occasion when my five year old was so frustrated that she hit out at me. This action got her an immediate time out and loss of privileges. I said to her, "I don't hit you, and I expect you not to hit others when you are angry." She still remembers that saying today.

My wife who is a psychiatrist told me early in our marriage that spanking sends two messages - "It is OK to be violent to those less powerful than you" and "Mommy and Daddy have just lost control".

[ultraist]

121. I agree 100% Stuckinthebush!

I have never spanked my children who are now 11 and 14. Both children are very well behaved.

I don't understand how anyone can believe that hitting another human being is humane and civil. I've even seen people in public spank their babies and young toddlers.

Most situations present an opportunity to teach a child rather than punish them. But then again, some parents may want compliant, non thinking beings under their control, rather than self disciplined individuals who learn to make wise choices in life.

[alittlelark]

69. Great post! My kids would likely prefer spanking to what we do....

Loooong talks w/ one or both parents. Writing 2-3 paragraphs on what/how/why the behavior was wrong, and how to change it. When they were younger we would have them draw a picture about what they did (we've saved alot of them, but it's hard to tell what they were drawing about now. I should have labeled them!)

[H2O Man]

87. That's creative.

Very impressive!

[lateo]

80. IMO this has some vaild point but...

It was written from a biased opinion. Take this quote from #6

"There is no reason to strike a child. Ever. "

They build their case around this phrase by, frankly, using a lot of strawmen.

[redqueen]

82. Unless the child is bigger than you or is somehow capable of physically

harming you, I agree.

Do you think spanking should continue when the child is old enough to be a real threat? When you would actually need to hit them for self-defense?

Where are the strawmen?

[wtmusic]

97. xactly, but

that's why timeouts have to start at a very young age.

If you adopt older kids, you're in for a struggle.

[lateo]

99. Huh?

Let's take a look at your strawmen...

"Do you think spanking should continue when the child is old enough to be a real threat? "

This could imply the use of fear and anger as means for motivation for spanking a child. If you begin to view your children as "a threat" you should seek professional help with the situation.


"When you would actually need to hit them for self-defense?"

What on earth are you talking about here? The topic is spanking not beating-hitting-fighting...

Your language is focusing on the EXTREME examples of dysfuntion within the realm of punishment. I thought we were discussing spankings not beatings.

And again it proves my point. The people who wrote this article use the same sort of technique that you used to frame this discussion.

[redqueen]

101. Spanking is physical violence.

I only condone physical violence for purposes of self defense.

Does that sufficiently serve to clarify what you thought were strawmen?

[lateo]

103. No....

It just shows your particular bias.

[radwriter0555]

145. So how about if I come over and hit YOU on the buttocks when I disagree

with something you've done or said.

What is the difference between hitting your child and hitting your nieghbor, or your nieghbor hitting you or your child out of disapproval?

When it's not your child, it's assault.

So why is it NOT assault when you hit your child?

[Terran]

94. I agree--very propagandistic

And yes, I read the whole thing. Invoking images of sinister fundie Christians and the Mi Lai massacre--yeah, that's real persuasive.

I could spend several hours dissecting why this is so faulty, but I'm particularly drawn to #2. The "myth" is supposedly that "I got spanked but I'm okay" (which is something I assert about myself). Note that nowhere in the text of the 'refutation' does it say that this isn't true; it merely says that kids who get spanked tend to spank their own kids. Well, aside from the fact that it seems that millions of parents these days who were probably spanked are now dead-set against it, this is an entirely neutral observation. Of course people learn some parenting activities from their parents. So, #2 struck me in particular as being entirely content-free. Better rename the article to "Seven Myths..." to begin with.

So given the fact that Myth #2 is not in fact refuted in any way, you have to wonder about all the other instances throughout where the writer plainly states that spanking is always, 100% of the time, harmful. Seems like a contradiction. This writer needs to stay out of the propaganda business.

[redqueen]

98. You'd much rather discuss wording than substance, it seems.

The myth is that it's okay to hit your children, since you yourself were hit and you're okay. Some children aren't okay. Not all smokers get cancer, but that doesn't mean we can assume smoking is risk-free.

We need more studies, clearly. That's what it took before tobacco companies admitted it was harmful. So that's probably what it will take before pro-spankers will admit it's harmful. Sad, really.

[lateo]

102. Again...

You use the word "hit" when the article is about spanking.

"Hitting" someone would imply that you are using much force.

[redqueen]

104. We'll just have to agree to disagree, then.

IMO spanking is a kind of hitting. And IMO none of it is okay unless you're sparring as a sport or using it for self defense.

[Terran]

118. You don't persuade people with shallow, faulty analysis

Understand this: if it could be proven beyond doubt that spanking really does cause all these harmful effects, even in some but not all children, then I'll be on your side. But this article is pretty much a load of BS, and any studies it cites by their nature have to be circumstantial in their support of spanking as harmful. In all cases, it's possible that many other factors could have caused the harm.

Words ARE important; stuff like this only harms your cause, IMO. What we have here is little better than anecdotal observation, which I have plenty of also. Kids today behave terribly, to the extent that I see them, and I truly believe it's because nobody imposes any limits on their kids anymore. I regard spanking, when done without anger and without physical harm, as a way to do that, among many other ways. And until proven differently, all these statements about spanking causing emotional harm are mere supposition.

[redqueen]

159. To me, you sound like someone arguing global warming doesn't exist

before the studies overwhelmingly backed it up.

Someday... someday...

[lateo]

100. Or they...

Need to learn the definition of Strawman. Seriously, this article is chock full of them.

[sonicx]

126. The writer's point with myth 2 is that just because you are OK after...

being spanked as a kid doesn't mean spanking is a good or should be encouraged. In other words, it's not a very good defense. It's like saying: "I got out of the ghetto without welfare, these people should be able to aswell."

The writer was not trying to say that a person who says that is lying.

[femme.democratique]

84. Physical discipline is NEVER ok

Both my parents used many different kinds of physical discipline against me throughout my childhood, belts, wooden spoons, spanking, others that I care not to mention, etc - I believe this contributed greatly to some of the depression and self-esteem issues I have dealt with throughout my life. And I was a GOOD child, rarely ever in trouble. Children are sponges, they absorb pain and shame from physical "discipline" by those who are supposed to love and care for them.

If parents can't find alternate non-violent ways to deal with mis-behavior, then they have no business being parents!

[patcox2]

110. You should get a big ole van and go take their children away then.

Since you possess infallible judgment and absolute right.

[femme.democratique]

111. Hey, if people can't handle children without resorting to violence....

...then they can't handle the responsibility of parenthood. period. im sick of people giving birth to children assuming that there isn't an inherent responsibility beyond food, shelter and basic needs. There is a responsibility to foster sound psychological health and happiness as well.

However, your terse response is telling - sorry to hear you're an advocate for violence against children. And, I never said I'd insert myself into a personal situation.

[patcox2]

108. The most damaged person I have ever known was never spanked.

His father would take away privileges, deny him the things he loved, not allow him to do the things he wanted to do.

The kid was so tortured by it that it seems he has lost all ability to care about anything. 20 years later, this man never expresses emotion or enthusiasm about anything, because he was taught as a child that if he loved something, it would be taken away from him. He coped by never wanting anything, never expressing his desire for anything. Its almost as if he never aspires or dreams, again because his parent's preferred method of punishment is the so-called "humane" method of taking away privileges.

Spanking is fine, its how and when you do it, same with time-outs and withdrawal of emotional contact and taking away privilges. All can be used abusively, and all can be used constructively.

[femme.democratique]

113. Thanks for your sharing your omniscience regarding selective use....

...of physical violence. This person WAS abused, physical or mental abuse has the same effect achieved through different tactics.

[lateo]

119. A voice of sanity in the mist of rhetoric.

Thank you for your post. It is all about how and when you do it. Also being there afterward to give them comfort and re-assurance. There is no magical, one-size fits all solution to disipline. And when I see BS propoganda like this I just scratch my head and wonder...

Mental abuse can be just as cruel as physical abuse. The real task is being firm, consistant and give them lots of attention. It is my experience that kids get the most restless and look for things to do when they are bored and no one is spending constructive time with them.

[sonicx]

125. The writer of this article knows that mental abuse is harmful

what does that have to do with whether or not spanking is OK?

[RobinA]

155. Something Tells Me

that something more was going on with this individual than just having privileges taken away when he misbehaved.

[Ready4Change]

112. Does Spank=swat or Spank=beat the tar out of?

There is, imo, a huge difference, and much of the debate over spanking stems from that difference.

There is also a huge difference regarding how any form of discipline is used. How clearly is it connected to the mis-behavior? How often is it used, and for what level of transgression? Is it meted out fairly between individuals? (no child is given special treatment?)

Unspoken assumptions on all the above, I think, hinder reasoned debate on this topic.

[redqueen]

114. I thought it obvious that the article in the OP refers to 'swatting'.

[Ready4Change]

115. Sorry. Not clear to me.

The article talks of leaving welts or marks, hard spankings, etc...

To me, a swat is a non-stinging, non-mark leaving action. Is that to be included inside the term "spank?"

[redqueen]

116. Re-read the parts about emotional pain.

That should clear it up.

[Ready4Change]

128. Then I've a problem with the definition.

From what I've witnessed, there seems to be a 3 legged spectrum of child raising environments.

On one side is a leg ending in abusive physical discipline. Broken kids.

The second leg ends in abusive non-physical discipline. It produces mentally scarred creatures as sad as the physically broken.

The 3rd branch is no discipline. It creates spoiled brats and societies that hate them.

You can try to create a middle ground of this triad without any physical option kept in reserve as a last resort. Good luck.

[redqueen]

129. Discipline does not mean pain.

You can use discipline without resorting to physical or emotional violence. It's really not that difficult.

[Ready4Change]

130. How old are your kids?

[redqueen]

131. 6 & 8

Why?

[Ready4Change]

150. 2 reasons.

First, as I have no kids, your experience trumps mine. :) I do wish you well, and hope your methods work wonders.

Second, when I grew up, my parents had managed to raise us via gentler methods till I was about five and my other siblings were around the age of your kids. (I'm the youngest of 4 kids.)

That's when my siblings decided to see what would happen if they pushed past the limits of gentle methods. The resulting experience is my chief reason for not being against all spankings. Because, while that day was the only time I can recall us ever being spanked, it is far from a traumatic memory. In fact, it is one of my whole families most cherished memories. Let me explain that more fully:

We kids KNEW we were being bad. That was the whole point. It was a game, and we were testing our parents to see what they would do. We kids were having fun, laughing etc... but we were seriously probing our parents control.

Our parents knew it too, and they were laughing at how we had suddenly decided to be "bad kids." But they also knew we were seriously challenging their control, and they had to take measures to prove they were going to keep that control.

We've talked about it many times since, and we all agree. I, being the youngest, wasn't really at risk at the time. But, had my parents not lowered the boom, we are all sure that 2 of my siblings would have gone on to serious problems. Even THEY agree to that, and have thanked my parents for keeping them in check. Now, in adult-hood, they can recognize the direction they were heading. But my parents took action that made them SURE that, should they press limits in that way, there will be repurcussions.

To some, that seems harsh. Emotional pain. Bad thing.

But the world CAN be a harsh place, and when raising kids by gentle methods it's possible for them to not be aware of that fact. Better to learn that from your parents, than from something like getting stabbed in a gang fight, getting alcohol poisoning, or wrecking a car because you've always been safe in everything else you've done. Parents, in teaching this lesson, can do so in a way that doesn't kill you. The world isn't so kind.

Those 2 siblings of mine did go on to get into SOME trouble. The 3 examples I give above are things I know they almost got killed by. But they both say that memories of that day made them a little bit more cautious, and that caution kept them from pulling some moves that landed some friends in jails or the morgues.

That caution isn't born of fear. It's born of a surety in the knowlege that the world can bite, and bite hard.

Example: I'm a private pilot. I use that caution to be sure I plan my flights thoroughly. I don't get surprised by running out of fuel. I don't get lost. I don't run afoul of unexpected weather. That's because I am positive that, should I push those limits, eventually those limits will push back. ANd that's when pilots die. There is a saying that goes "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." Thanks to my parents I've a good chance of becoming an old pilot.

Sorry for the long post, but my feelings are quite strong on this. While I am NOT an advocate of beating kids, I am also certain that that one day in my family saved lives, and that my parents were wise in it's application.

You are welcome to disagree.

[redqueen]

160. Did you read the article?

Personal anecdotal evidence aside, physical violence is still physical violence.

[Ready4Change]

167. Ok.

[Pockets]

122. The article is a tad simplistic

IMO phsychological discipline can be just as harmful as spanking, even moreso.

[mzmolly]

132. Excellent piece!

Thanks for sharing once again. One more nomination here.

[Caoimhe]

136. Great article and thanks for the research!

Very good article and interesting thread. If you've ever taken your dog to a dog obedience class you quickly realize that the OWNER is the one who gets most of the "training", not the dog. You are also taught never to hit a dog because they don't respond positively to it, in fact can act out because of it. Why can't we have parenting classes that teach the same basic ideas?

And to all you parents out there, don't be afraid to ask for help, ever. It's this attitude of embarrassment to ask for assistance when it is obvious things aren't working that leads to eventually parents just throwing their hands in the air and saying I GIVE UP. It isn't weak to ask for help and EVERYONE can benefit from individual or family counseling.

I myself was spanked several times as a real small youngster; punishment was left up to my Dad. So we would get the "wait until your Dad comes home" thing.. and in the end for all of us.. it really became a reason to fear him coming home. You could screw up at 8am and then have to wait all day dreading Dad coming home... and him sit and listen to Mom's story after having a stressful day at work.. his face turning red with anger, take off his warm and pliable leather belt he's been wearing all day and render a few whips across bared fannies. By the time the deed was dealt he was enraged and would grit his teeth. I don't remember what I got spanked for, ever.

I do however, remember mouthing off to my mom and having my stereo taken away for two weeks..:nopity: I thought I was going to die without it! I learned my lesson. Of course by that time my parents only had me in the house and they had mellowed with age and experience. Funny, now that we are older, my parents think their GRANDCHILDREN should NEVER ever EVER ever EVER be spanked. People are funny. :shrug:

[redqueen]

161. Wow... dog training classes teach owners never to hit their dogs,

but parents...

Wow...

WTF... :(

[Poor Richard Lex]

137. 1-2-3 Magic

is the name of the book and the video that gives info on the timeout method and how to use it so it will be most effective. It really works and I highly recommend it. No need to ever spank again, it just teaches that violence is appropriate.

[redqueen]

163. Thank you!

I didn't know about that video... more information to share with others. :)

[enki23]

139. what an amazing collection of strawman bullshit...

.

[redqueen]

165. I've asked others to point out the strawmen...

would you care to?

[Chico Man]

176. It is a strawman argument because it says spanking = child abuse

Who would ever try to defend child abuse?

How could I defend..

"redness, welts, and even bruises on the child's skin"

"use painful physical force against a small child"

" a worker slapping an elderly the woman hard across the buttocks several times"

If spanking does indeed cause Low self esteem, Depression, Masochism, and Psychological Distress, then it is nothing short of child abuse.

Let's rephrase your myths..

Myth #1. Being abused never hurt anybody.

Myth #2: I was abused, and I'm okay.

Myth #3: Some children need a good, hard abusing.

Myth #4: Child abuse is the best way to stop dangerous behavior in toddlers.

Myth #5: Being abused keeps children out of trouble.

Myth #6: Nothing but abuse works on some children.

Myth #7: Child abuse isn't hitting or violence-it's discipline.

Myth #8: Child abuse is not harmful if it's done by loving, supportive parents.

This is really what you are saying, right?

[entanglement]

147. The only kind of spanking I support

:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

Doesn't hurt any innocent children either!

[belladonna]

157. Thanks for posting this, RQ

I've been avoiding these threads because it's just a subject that I get WAY too emotionally involved in and I just don't have time to fight with people who can't see that violence towards ANYBODY, whether it be a child or an adult, is never productive. It's nothing but an easy way out, a way to exert control over another human being.

[redqueen]

164. My pleasure! If people are taught never to hit pets...

I really can't see how this is even arguable.

Go figure!