religion is not a political tool

[radfringe]

this particular post (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3097487#3098887) prompted me to post the following

my work schedule had changed so my postings have been limited to early morning "fly-by's"

I did take some time this morning to peruse the "religion war" going on and find it both amusing and disconserting

Since the repugs have seized power they have divided up the country into tiny factions under the guise of "uniting" the country.

If you objected to bush*'s selection in 2000 -- you were unpatriotic

If you have problems with bush*'s social security scam - then you are racially bias because blacks get less out of social security than whites

If you had a problem with a particular judicial nominee than you are prejudice against women, hispanics, blacks etc...

If you had a problem with Terry Shaivio's feeding tube removed -- then you are anti-life

Now they have put down the flag and taken up the bible -- object to THEIR views and you are anti-christian.

from the postings I read -- many of us have taken that bait and the repugs have won -- we're divided, and divided we fall

wake up people -- religion is a personal freedom to celebrate (or not) as each of us chooses - it is NOT and SHOULD NOT be in the hands of Politicians to be used as a political tool

flame away - I've fireproofed my jammies

[coloradodem2005]

1. Well. Too many people have taken the bait.

[Tux]

2. I agree

But with Christians in both parties, it's hard to show one side isn't really American without upsetting the other side. It's a hard situation.

Bin Ladin knew of our fundies and I think 9/11 was to get us scared and get the fundies all mad and upset.

[radfringe]

6. the issue isn't about being christian or any other religion

the issue is that the repugs are using religion like they used the flag -- to divide the country - to get people fighting among themselves instead of talking

it's easier to conquer small groups of people than it is to conquer a country - and the more they divide us the easier it is for them to just grab power

[MuseRider]

3. Nicely said.

I agree with you and am staying as far away as I can from those arguments.

No flames from me. :applause:

[tubbacheez]

4. Unfortunately, religion really is a political tool today.

It shouldn't be, but it is.


Anything that has the power to motivate throngs of people is politically useful in that politicians who can tap this power gain tremendous influence.







It's like telling toddlers that food should be eaten and not played with. The latter is just too tempting not to try.

[punpirate]

5. Ah, but...

... the Repugs have made it a political tool. By definition, it becomes one. The question now is how to find the correct tool to block its effects.

I think the correct political tool is...

... sunshine. Lots of it. :)

[benevolent dictator]

11. I agree, I was just talking about this today

in much narrower terms. I just can't understand how so many things get made into religious issues when they clearly are not, gay marriage being the easiest example.

The church does not give me the right to see my partner in the hospital, the government does.
The church does not give me the right to file taxes jointly, the government does.
The church does not give me any of the rights that go along with marriage, yet when I demand them, I'm against the religious and moral and traditional meaning of marriage. I'm not asking any church to recognize my marriage, but I don't think the government should be denying me my rights.

They used religion to polarize this issue when religion should have nothing to do with it. Religion has become a political tool, and what we need to do is expose this.

Take the abortion issue, point out to people that the Repukes are using the abortion issue to get their votes, but they are ignoring things that would actually decrease abortions, such as improving the economy, providing better access to and education about birth control, improving environmental standards, the list goes on. They gut funding for these, and then pass laws (or try to) that they know will get shot down if they get to court because they don't provide an exception for the life and health of the mother. People don't even realized that they're being played.

[punpirate]

12. Umm... it's necessary...

... to point out the logical deficiencies of those arguments, yes, but, so far, that's not what's captured the public's attention. What has, however, is the assertion that the Democrats and the media are actively trying to suppress religious rights. That's gotten the attention, rightly or wrongly.

What I'm talking about, when I say sunlight, is exposing the people behind these charges for what, and who, they are--a small group of power-hungry people determined to undo the democratic underpinnings of the country. To get the country's attention, one first has to get the attention of the media, and that's more difficult, but, I think, with a little investigation, the agenda of such people would be found to be more about raw power than religious rights. Tom DeLay is an excellent example. The more the public sees of his thoroughly illegal and unethical practices in the areas of influence-peddling and corrupt campaign activities, the less it is likely to trust his pronouncements on religion.

The more that James Dobson's associations and activities are exposed, the less likely is the public to trust his motives with regard to his political activities. The same goes for Ralph Reed and his ilk.

One can never expect the hard-core fundies to back down on their beliefs, but they are far from the majority. The trick the religious right has pulled off, so far, is convincing the press that the extremists represent the mainstream, and the press has been unwilling to challenge that proposition. But, with a little exposure of the underside of these people, and a lot of sunlight, even that tenet can be shown as false.

Cheers.

[Anakin Skywalker]

7. No Flames Here!

I agree with ya! Keep religion PERSONAL.

[DanCa]

8. What ever happened to Private Devotion

Well I find all the Religous-ticking quite obnoxious. I dont like having my faith branded about politicols on the left or right. All I want to do is go to church and help out at the food pantry and the retirement home. Than the chimp and now the rat got in and everythings turning into a zoo.
Do I think people are bad based on orientation, party affilliation, stances on reproductive issues or other religous or non religious backgrounds, certainly not. I just want to know when and how this madness is going to end. Something tells me the tipping point is comming soon and it wont be a pretty sight.

[Az]

9. Religion for many people is the guiding principle that informs them

You can place a wall of seperation between church and state but you will never be able to take religion out of the voter or the politician.

Religion simply put defines many people's world views. Its the filter through which they see things. It is the basis for morality as some see it. Without their religion they believe morality is impossible. In fact many see the absense of religion as immoral.

The thing that must be preserved (and unfortunately is in danger of failing) is that those that do not hold to such strong religious beliefs have an equal voice in the system as those that do. Our society is built on morality based on the guidance of We The People. It is not founded on a god's doctrine of a holy text. There is no way to exclude the religious voices in the process but the foundation of the laws our the combined voices of the people and not the doctrine of the few.

[etherealtruth]

10. We don't need to TOLERATE each others beliefs...

... We need to RESPECT (and display respect) for each others beliefs.

I really don't care if you are atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Catholic, Jain, Jewish, Muslim... (you get the point) I don't understand why anyone would care which (if any) religion I align myself with ----for the record I'm an "agnostic Catholic" who married and divorced a Muslim and have kids that are basically "human".

I love religion, I am intrigued by the beauty of the rituals and the rich histories.

I know religion has been given as justification for more wars than I can count----I also know that humans are a warring bunch and that we'll go to war over eye color if that were the only difference we could find---religion is a handy excuse.

This is not the appropriate forum for proselytizing---I am actually talking to the atheist and agnostics here----if any person of religious faith stated the things that are said about Christians here, about atheists, they would be hunted tarred and feathered. Christian proselytizing is wrong----so is atheist.

To the people of religious faith who address others sanctimoniously... Shut the hell up. Your sanctimony does not garner respect it invites derision.

These would be my rules if I were Goddess of discussion, but I'm not---so ...

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Institutional religion has been a political tool for thousands of years

for good or bad. I highly recommend "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond - "A Short History of Everybody for the last 13,000 years".

The remaining way for kleptocrats to gain public support is to construct an ideology or religion justifying kleptocracy. Bands and tribes already had supernatural beliefs, just as do modern established religions. But the supernatural beliefs of bands and tribes did not serve to justify central authority, justify transfer of wealth, or maintain peace between unrelated individuals. When supernatural beliefs gained those functions and became institutionalized, they were thereby transformed into what we term a religion …

Besides justifying the transfer of wealth to kleptocrats, institutionalized religion brings two other important benefits to centralized societies. First, shared ideology or religion helps solve the problem of how unrelated individuals are to live together without killing each other – by providing them with a bond that is not based on kinship. Second, it gives people a motive, other than genetic self-interest, for sacrificing their lives on behalf of others. At the cost of a few society members who die in battle as soldiers, the whole society becomes much more effective at conquering other societies or resisting attacks …

[radfringe]

14. Hubris precedes the plunge

the intervention of Congress regarding Terri Shaivo brought this all to the forefront - the repugs lost ground and are in scramble mode. They assumed there would be a rally around their actions and they would gain support -- but that did not happen

behind the scenes we know that this is being used as a way to kill the filibuster not only on current judicial nominees but also for anticipated SUPREME COURT vacancies.

it has very little to do with religion and very much to do with power and control.

religion is an emotional topic and the repugs have already shown that they are adept at manipulating emotional issues for political gain.

Dems need to force the repugs to define their terms and not let them get away with fuzzy-warm rhetoric.

[earth mom]

15. Nominated-You hit the nail on the head and I agree 100%! eom

[PurityOfEssence]

16. Was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be a POLITICAL TOOL

Organized religion is politics writ large and always has been.

Whether it SHOULD be or not, is another matter.

Religion in politics is inherently anti-democratic, because it creates an aristocracy (believers) and serfdom (believers in other guesses and non-believers). Worse still, those of the accepted belief needn't justify their positions; they're better by nature. Whereas secular politics require one to justify one's point and stand against rebuttal, religious politics tell you what the answer is, and that's that; those who disagree are inferiors, fools or murderous heretics and shouldn't be suffered.

People who want to whistle in the woods and think that religion can be given a foothold in politics without wreaking havoc need a big clanging wake-up call: it is the nature of organized religion to subjugate, marginalize or ban those who don't go along with the guess. It's not a lamentable by-product of belief, it's the very heart and soul of exclusivity and domination.

Here's the problem: the concept that unquestioning faith is a good thing. It isn't. It's hatred of thinking, fear of the unknown and supreme egotism with a need to dominate all those who disagree. Sure, some nice things come from religion, but organized religions are political organizations and always have been.

This isn't a little by-product of belief, it's the inevitable outcome of it.

[lesab]

17. Unquestioning faith

I think it is fine and dandy that you don't have faith. Why do you have such a problem with mine? I don't abandon my faith and my church just because there are problems and the men in charge are on the wrong path. If that were the case, I'd have to leave America instead of staying and trying to change things. No institution is perfect. As a person, you take the good that you can get from it though and fight to change the rest.

I love being Catholic. It has nothing to do with the church leaders or you or my neighbors or anyone else. It is between me and my God. Stay out of it.

I believe you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, and are equal to me in every way. I love all people.......atheists, christians, gays/lesbians, blacks, hispanics, asians,.....everyone and regardless of your personal beliefs, I will fight for them. Why do you hate me for mine?

Change will only come from people seeing for themselves the error of their ways, not by others putting them down for differences. That goes for political and religious institutions.