I think saying Ratzinger is a Nazi is stupid. REALLY stupid.

[da_chimperor]

I also think it's completely false. OK, so he was briefly in the Hitler youth. So? All kids were required to be a member after 1941. OK, so he was in the German military. So? It's called conscription, folks. He could have resisted them more than he did, that's true, but I'm not holding it against him. Lots of people that resisted died so I can't blame him for just trying to survive. Whether or not his more recent comments regarding a duty to resist things against gods law (genocide, Nazis, whatever), or somesuch, make him look hypocritical is something I'm NOT addressing. Does anyone really think that the late John Paul II would have a Nazi as one of his closest associates? I sure as hell don't.

While I think John Paul II did have his failings (specifically on AIDS, pedophilia, homosexuality, etc.), I feel he was a good guy and should be remembered as such. I think we should wait and see how Ratzinger turns out, rather that shouting 'He's a Nazi!'. If you want to keep saying it, go ahead.

I trust this article much more than the speculation, accusation, and other crap floating around.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

And that's my input. EOM

[sam sarrha]

1. he deserted his first post after 2 weeks.. and hid out the rest of the war

[Lucky Luciano]

2. I think some gay people will

probably complain about your glaring omission....as will pro-choice people, reasonable feminists, etc

[da_chimperor]

17. Oops!

:dunce:

[KamaAina]

3. Can I mention the Inquisition?

nowadays called "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" -- but make no mistake, it's the Inquisition, Ratzinger ran it, and that was hardly a "youthful indiscretion".

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition." -Monty Python

[da_chimperor]

19. Ok, but that's another topic for another discussion.

:hi:

[R. A. Fuqua]

42. Thanks--I always thought it was

"nobody escapes the Spanish Inquisition"

I guess I have lots of trouble deciphering those British accents...

[dhinojosa]

4. but he didn't publicly condemn his past...that's the point.

I have been scouring sources where he publicly announced his misgivings of his youth but he hasn't done that.

[da_chimperor]

9. Point taken. That's quite disappointing to hear.

I'm reserving my judgment of him as pope until he actually starts doing things, as pope.

[goddess40]

10. I agree - he needed to say that he regrets it

explain that it wasn't voluntary and that he deserted for that reason - not that he deserted because he was arrogant, lazy, chicken like bush.

[Bridget Burke]

5. There are more recent blots in his resume....

I agree that JPII would not have befriended a real Nazi.

How many of us would have sought martyrdom at 14 years of age?

[Hugin]

21. Wasn't Anne Frank about that age?

Oh... No she was only 13.

http://www.spa3.k12.sc.us/WebQuests/Diary%20of%20Anne%20Frank/Index.html

[Caution]

6. To deny the facts is stupid

regardless of anything else this man served the german army and served as a guard over slave labor. Maybe he will turn out to be a ray of light on the Catholic Church, his past (as recently as his speech yesterday and as long ago as 1943 at an aircraft engine plant near Dachau) do not speak well for the future.

I wouldnt deny that Robert Byrd had a terrible past and when someone calls him a Klansman all I can do is nod and say he made a HUGE mistake. One that would never allow him to become President (nor should it). The College of Cardinals have now made a massive mistake in electing a man with a past like his to the papacy.

[da_chimperor]

13. I have no problem whatsoever with the facts.

The article I linked to is quite good on the subject. There are still some questions regarding his past and the article talks about them, but the fact that people were throwing around the 'Nazi' label en masse was really getting to me. I'm definitely not happy with him (even though it doesn't concern me), and his past doesn't sit well with me either.

[arcos]

7. He's not a nazi, he's a fascist...

An Opus Dei member, and extreme right winger. I couldn't care less what he did in 1941, but I do care for his position in 2005 and they are ultraconservative.

[BurtWorm]

8. I wish people would stop trying to defend his becoming a Hitler Youth.

It's unseemly. It would be better if you just ignored it, rather than lowering yourselves to mouth the Nuremburg defense on his behalf. So being a Hitler Youth and a member of the Nazi army were lesser crimes than being an Eichmann or a Mengele. So what? Let him defend himself.

[da_chimperor]

22. Joining the hitler youth was mandatory.

Unless his parents hid him in the woods for a few years, I personally can't think how he would get out of it. Can you? Oh, and remember he was 14 at the time.

[BurtWorm]

24. Does it feel good to keep making excuses for Hitler Youth?

If so, please feel free. Of not, you really don't have to.

[da_chimperor]

27. I'll answer your question when you answer mine. I asked first. n/t

[BurtWorm]

29. What does Ratzinger himself have to say about the period?

That's more to the point than what either you or I have to say about it.

[da_chimperor]

36. I don't know. Perhaps it can be discussed after you answer my question n/t

[BurtWorm]

39. Nuh uh!

:P

[da_chimperor]

41. Right back at ya.

:P

[bryant69]

11. The truth is that the Catholic CHurch was not going to nominate a pope

the majority of this board would respect. It wasn't in the cards. IF they had put someone else up, we'd be seeing 20-30 threads attacking that guy.

So let's evwerybody vent and in two three weeks we will pay as much attention to Pope Benedictus ? as we did to Pope John Paul through most of his life.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[entanglement]

12. Thank you, very nice post

There's a raft load of arguments to use against Ratzinger, but it seems playing the Nazi/son of a Nazi/guilt by association card is so much easier. Label someone Nazi and obviate the need for discussion.

[da_chimperor]

16. Exactly. Fact-wise I think we can say his past is still questionable

but for me, his close association with JP2 eases my concern with his past somewhat.

[Terran]

14. You're right...

He's not a Nazi, and can't really be blamed for something he did when he was 14. But I think we already know how he'll turn out, given what he's said and done as an old man.

[atreides1]

15. I didn't know....

...the last Pontiff personally, but from your question perhaps you did.

Would John Paul II have a Nazi as an advisor? Probably not, but he did have a an ex-Nazi as an advisor.

My concern is not what Pope Benedict XVI did as a boy over 6 decades ago, but what he has said in the last 5 years. Like when he said that
all other Christian churches are deficient, or that Jews will go to hell, or what he will do about the assistance that the Catholic church gave to child molesting priests.

Now if he comes out and publicly denounces these statements, and turns the American priest wanted by Arizona for child molestation over to US authorities, then I would be willing to give him a chance.

It's really not much to ask for is it?

[da_chimperor]

28. And how was he a nazi? When was he a nazi? How can you tell he was?

Hmmmmm?

[Kellanved]

18. excactly

The absurd number of uniformed posts makes it very hard to read the place at the moment. Even this thread seems to have some.

People, he wasn't Nazi, not a soldier, he was a "Flakhelfer": a student in a drafted high school class. That's a fact. Go against his positions, they are a better target than a past shared by millions of Germans.

thanks for posting!

[da_chimperor]

30. The insinuation that being in the Wehrmacht = Nazi is infuriatingly stupid

My roomies grandpa was in the German army. Was he a Nazi? Nope. I'm going to have LOTS of fun with people who insist the contrary is true. :eyes:

[Kellanved]

34. He wasn't even in the Wehrmacht AFAIK.

Flakhelfer, i.e. a student in a High School class drafted as support unit.

[da_chimperor]

37. OK, thanks for the clarification.

[northzax]

33. um, doesn't membership in the Hitler Youth

kinda connote being a 'nazi'? Denying that he wasa nazi is like denying that Senator Byrd was in the Klan. you can't. Hopefully, Benedict the whatever can use his childhood experiences to help combat hate and prejiduce around the world.

but I'm not betting on it.

[Kellanved]

35. not really

As the h. youth membership was compulsory; membership in the Nazi party was voluntary.

[callous taoboy]

20. All kids were required....

but some, like a close family friend of mine, chose to get the hell out of there because his father wanted no part of it.

[geek tragedy]

23. Anything that can be done to delegitimize him and destroy his moral

authority ought to be done.

He's the enemy just as much as Falwell, Robertson, etc.

He makes the Shrub look like Michael Lerner.

[da_chimperor]

26. Be as critical of him as you want. Talk about his questionable past.

IMO saying he is a Nazi is false.

[geek tragedy]

31. He acts and thinks like a Nazi today, so I have no problem with using

his past as a metaphor. By any means necessary and all that stuff.

[da_chimperor]

38. Metaphors are fine with me. n/t

[barb162]

25. agree! And when you read about his family resisting the Nazis

and his only joining when it was made compulsory, I say give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Clark2008]

32. I don't like him because of his "Hitler Youth" days

I dislike him because he's a neo-con.
I dislike him because he's a vallet for the Bush agenda.
I dislike him because he tried to keep Kerry from taking Communion - an obviously political move.
I dislike him because he's a turd.

I do, however, find it awfully odd that he was chosen to be Pope on one of the darkest days in history.

[da_chimperor]

40. I believe you mean you 'don't dislike him because of his...', correct? n/t

[da_chimperor]

43. Kick: because I still see 'Ratzinger was a Nazi' crap floating around. n/t

[Sterling]

44. Get used to it.

Most people associate the Hitler youth with the Nazi's. Go figure?

[da_chimperor]

45. Yes, unfortunately I will have to get used to it.

I know quite a bit about both the Nazis and the Hitler youth, and I'm rather disappointed that so many DUers cement their beliefs without knowing all they could about the topic at hand. I've had people call me an apologist, but I think they just don't know what the hell they're talking about. I really don't like Ratzinger, but I won't stand by and let him be called a Nazi by hordes of the uninformed when I can try to do something about it. It's futile, but that won't stop me. EOM.

[Just Me]

46. *sigh* I couldn't give a damn about the "Hitler youth". My concern is,...

,...perpetuation of exclusion, intolerance/unforgiveness, power/control-mongering and "injustice" with respect to issues involving equality.

A person's PAST is NOT necessarily a reflection of what that person has become or will be. In other words, PEOPLE CAN CHANGE,...for better, for nothing, for wisdom, for worse.

The evidence tends to demonstrate that this electee may MAY perpetuate inequality which is hurtful. However, he may MAY turn out to be THE leader in spreading equality.

I have to, at least, give the man some time to prove the direction in which he will lead.

[da_chimperor]

47. Yes. Exactly. Thank you.

The debate on Ratzinger/Benedict 16th should be his past actions/opinions as a cardinal, and what can be expected of him in the future. Not a load of crap regarding him being 'evil' because he couldn't resist the Nazis at 14 years old. Thank you for your response.