Calling Benedict a Nazi is like calling Mohammed a pedophile.

[Xithras]

While a lot of you are understandably pissed about the selection, keep in mind that he's the leader of the worlds largest church and that a huge number of Democrats (myself included) are baptized Catholic and would take serious offense to some of the things I'm reading here. As a bisexual Catholic, I was REALLY hoping that we'd see someone more progressive take the reigns of the church, but the fact that they didn't doesn't give everyone permission to declare open season on the church. Do that and you're simply playing into the whole "Democrats Vs. God" meme that the Rethugs keep harping on about.

Insulting someones religion isn't a good way to make friends, and since the Pope is considered to be the voice of God through the church, insulting him is the same as insulting the church itself.

Console yourself with this fact: Ratzinger is old and probably won't live long. We may have another shot at getting someone more progressive into the pontificate in just a few more years.

[progmom]

1. i disagree

the pope is not considered a prophet.

[Midlodemocrat]

7. Actually, the Pope is considered to

be a descendent of Peter, who started the church.

[deutsey]

14. Nevermind

I see you corrected the lineage. :-)

[Midlodemocrat]

20. LOL. I was typing and not thinking.

[progmom]

45. yes, but equating the pope to Mohammed is still not accurate

I think it would be more accurate to compare Mohammed to Moses.

[Midlodemocrat]

50. I agree.

I think the OP was just a little heated about this and I can't blame him. I do think your analogy is more appropriate.

[Maru Kitteh]

80. Gosh, could have sworn it was JESUS who started the church n/t

[Zynx]

107. Jesus annointed Peter to start the Church

This is why no pope will EVER take Peter as a name.

[Lerkfish]

126. Actually, there is no scriptural backing for that statement.

When Christ asked who people said that he was, Peter replied, "you are the christ, the son of the living God" to which Christ said "on this rock I will build my church" (paraphrasing from memory)

essentially, Jesus was saying the CONFESSION of him as the christ was the foundation of the Church. Through history, this has been misinterpreted to mean that Christ was saying Peter would be the foundation of the church,....which if you think about it, would be a very odd thing for Jesus to do. Since he's said HE was the one way, and the truth, and the life, It would be odd for him to then say "but follow this guy".

If anything, Paul built the church through his action moreso than Peter did. Peter was against gentiles being saved, if you'll recall, and even after the vision from God with the unclean animals in the sheet, Peter's ministry was STILL only the children of Isreal, and he argued against preaching to the gentiles.

[Midlodemocrat]

129. Actually, that is not true.

"Thou art Peter and upon thy rock, you shall build my Church".

Don't have a Bible up here in the office, but I will try to find the passage.

on edit: There are differing Bibles, so perhaps that is from where we are speaking. Catholics do not use the King James version, we use the Duay (sp) version.

[Lerkfish]

135. right. Catholic Bibles are going to support that contention.

There are other books in the Catholic bible that differ from the King James.
The Catholic bible also edits out a portion referring to mary, if I recall correctly.

No offense intended, but if a church puts out its version of the bible, its going to support itself.

[Midlodemocrat]

140. I agree with you there,

and the biggest difference as far as I remember are the passages are a little different.

The Church also believes that, unlike the other Christian religions, it was started by Peter, at the request of Christ. The other Christian religions were started by men in response to anger at the Church, for the most part, anyway.

[roguevalley]

169. there is a school of thought that a pope is heresy. that there is no

religious provision for this, just a political one.

[Dookus]

2. And Bush can only be president

for a few more years, so we shouldn't worry ourselves too much about it.

I'm an American - when you insult my President, you insult ME.


See how that works?

[Midlodemocrat]

10. I disagree with your analogy, Dookus.

I can insult the President because I am an American, but I don't think that people who aren't Catholic should insult my church. I wouldn't insult yours, or if you didn't have one.

[Dookus]

22. Well what

you call "insult" is in most cases, legitimate criticism.

The Catholic church is a hugely powerful political entity, and it's silly to restrict any examination of it to catholics only.

[Midlodemocrat]

46. Perhaps it is legitimate criticism.

But you have to admit, some people go way overboard in damning something that doesn't mean a thing to them. I don't believe as the Jews do, but I don't think that gives me the right to be overtly critical about them. It doesn't affect me.

Bush, however, does affect me. As does this Pope. I can understand your frustration with the Church and believe me, I am right there with you on most of it, and I also appreciate that your postings have been respectful and not inflammatory. That is a personal observation I have made about your postings re: the Church and I sincerely do appreciate it. I wish other posters were as considerate.

And FWIW, I happen to agree with ALL of your criticisms of the Church and the statements about homosexuals.

[GiovanniC]

66. I Wish The Pope Didn't Affect Non-Catholics

Sadly, that is not the case. The things a pope says and does -- and DOESN'T say and DOESN'T do -- very much affects billions of people around the world, Catholic and otherwise.

[Midlodemocrat]

94. I think you are right.

But as a Catholic, I don't see that. I myself am not affected by Falwell, or Ralph Reid, or the others in that vein, because I am not protestant.

I am not sure I understand why the spiritual leader of a Church a person doesn't worship in is affected by what they say, because I am a lifelong Catholic, so I haven't been on the other side of that fence.

[GiovanniC]

100. You Simply Cannot Compare a Falwell or a Reid to the Pope

They do not have the massive power that the Pope wields. Think of it like this... As an American, I am not affected too much by who is elected to head the Canadian government... but Canadians are affected by who is elected to head the American government.

[Midlodemocrat]

110. Good point. (nt)

[Montauk6]

114. But you ARE affected when they comprise the clique that holds sway over...

government policy (via elected officials and, most importantly, judicial and other appointments) and media.

[Midlodemocrat]

138. I was speaking in religious terms, not political.

[Montauk6]

145. Unfortunately, THEY don't make the distinction, and it costs us dearly...

"Separation of church and state"? BAH HUMBUG! Revisionist history from the commie libs! (you've heard the bromides)

[trotsky]

160. Non-Catholics are also directly affected by medical practices

at Catholic hospitals. If you are taken to a Catholic (or Catholic-owned) hospital in an emergency, you - even if you're not a Catholic - will be refused any surgical procedure that the church does not approve. So in the case of a pregnant woman whose fetus is injured and could cause her death if it's not aborted, well, tough shit.

[beam me up scottie]

164. Nor will many of them terminate an ectopic pregnancy.

nt

[trotsky]

166. If you damn women hadn't been tempted by the snake,

none of this would have happened! Curse thee, foul woman! Let thee suffer in childbirth and lo unto thy misery shall thou yelleth and screameth and... ah fuckit. :)

[beam me up scottie]

168. One damn apple and you never hear

the end of it...
:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

[arwalden]

47. Amazing... Astounding...

<< but I don't think that people who aren't Catholic should insult my church. >>

Did you actually read that before you clicked submit? Did you mean it?

That's got to be the most astoundingly ARROGANT statement I've read in a very long time!! Un-fucking-believable!

[Midlodemocrat]

57. Yes, I did read it and if you read my post to Dookus

you will see what I meant by that.

Far from arrogant, Allen. I meant it. What gives anyone the right to insult someone's beliefs? I wouldn't insult yours, even if I didn't agree with them.

Disagreeing is one thing, but posting inflammatory rhetoric for the sake of pissing people off is wrong.

[Lerkfish]

60. hm....

I don't recall any moderators standing up for liberal protestants...

odd.

[Midlodemocrat]

63. I am posting as myself. Not as a moderator.

Just because I am a mod, I still get to have an opinion.

[Lerkfish]

79. Still, I did not see you defending liberal protestants.

just saying.

They have endured a lot worse on DU than having their leader's background accurately stated.

[Midlodemocrat]

86. I'm not protestant.

I don't know enough about the various protestant denominations to defend or criticize any of them.

[Lerkfish]

103. Unfortunately, not the point I was making.

You've set unreasonable boundaries about who can criticize (although pointing out a fact is not criticism, in my view) a pope, how they can criticize the catholic church. you've stated: you can go thus far, but no farther. If you are not willing to apply the same rule to ALL religions or denominations, then you run the risk of appearing jingoistic and hypocritical.

I think the protected status you're suggesting is unnecessarily exclusionary and overly restrictive, and further, I think you're too close to one side to view that objectively.

[Midlodemocrat]

117. How is arguing against insults

exclusionary and overly reactive?

My posts in this thread have not been in defensive of Benedict XVI, I was just saying that it is possible to criticize without being insulting.

The OP was simply stating that some of the stuff posted he found offensive. To insult and attack rather than offer legitimate criticism is childish.

I am arguing that if you have problems with the Church, that is fine, I do as well, but the way some people discuss that is insulting. Telling people they need to leave the church now, you're an idiot if you stay, etc. is insulting. I would hope you would agree.

[Lerkfish]

130. if you say so.

that's not how I have read the majority of your posts, but if that's the intent, then I have no problem with that message.

HOWEVER, it is still not an insult to point out Ratzinger was a Nazi. That is simple fact.

[Midlodemocrat]

141. Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth at 14.

to keep himself alive. I am not sure I would have done differently at that age.

I don't think that it is fair to call him a Nazi. Don't you think that implies consent?

[Lerkfish]

146. I dunno, we are allowed to point out Rove, Bush, Schwarzenegger Nazi

connections here at DU.

I don't think we're implying consent as much as association.

Will we not be allowed to point out that Rove's Grandfather was a Nazi because that insults Karl Rove? If so there are going to be a lot of deletions here.

Will we not be allowed to point out that Schwarzenegger's Dad was a Nazi because that insults arnold and implies consent?

You're wanting there to be a double standard: the pope and every other political being.

Not sure that's really equitable.

And just because you don't think you would have done differently does not mean it didn't occur. You are bending over backwards to forgive Benedict here for things that we don't forgive other political leaders.

Yes, I know he's a religious leader, but his religion is influencing the world's politics.

[Midlodemocrat]

149. No, no you misunderstood my post.

I was asking you if you thought that being a Nazi implied consent to join the Nazis. Ratzinger was 14 when he joined the Hitler Youth, obstensibly to stay alive. I don't know if they are equitable.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

84. Dude, what is your problem?

I said, quite politely, unlike you, that criticism is one thing, insults are another.

Would you like to be insulted because of your belief system? Would you like someone to post to you the way you posted to me?

[arwalden]

106. No... What You Said Was...

<< but I don't think that people who aren't Catholic should insult my church >>

And it's easily demonstrated that there are a great many here who promptly categorize all "criticism" as being "insulting"... and they go to extraordinary lengths to be personally offended. Or, they to create new rules regarding who is entitled or not entitled to criticize (uh "insult") the church.

<< Would you like to be insulted because of your belief system? Would you like someone to post to you the way you posted to me? >>

It happens all the time. I think you're being over-sensitive.

[Midlodemocrat]

144. I don't agree.

I don't think I am being over-sensitive.

Insults and criticism, even negative criticism are too different things. If I disagreed with everything you stood for in your life, I would make a point not to insult you about your beliefs so that we could have a genuine discussion.

[arwalden]

159. Well...

<< I don't think I am being over-sensitive. >>

Not all the time, but you have your moments.

<< Insults and criticism, even negative criticism are too different things. >>

I guess that depends on who you're talking to. For some people around here, they are one and the same.

<< If I disagreed with everything you stood for in your life, I would make a point not to insult you about your beliefs so that we could have a genuine discussion. >>

I don't understand. I guess I'm having difficulty in grasping that concept because I come from a CULTURE OF EVIL.

[Maru Kitteh]

119. To totally rule out any criticism of a head of state is ridiculously

unrealistic. It's the Roman church that seeks to make itself a political force in the world, and as long as they continue to do so they leave themselves open for critique. Period.

[Hamlette]

56. do you mean to say you wouldn't criticize Fallwell, or Robertson

or the crazy Jewish Rabbi who says its immoral to tax rich people?

It is nonsense to say I cannot criticize anyone in your church for their views or their past. Don't take it personally. We are not attacking you.

[Midlodemocrat]

61. Perhaps you aren't, but others are.

Not just here on DU, but IRL.

I think it is possible to criticize without insult. Critical examination of policies is necessary to ensure that all people's needs are met.

I can criticize Falwell without insulting the people who follow him and believe in him. Same with Robertson. And, obviously, by the context of your post, you can do that as well. And criticizing someone in the church for their views is a long way from criticizing the people who participate in that church.

I think we are essentially saying the same thing.

[GiovanniC]

78. You CAN Criticize Falwell Without Criticizing His Followers

But in reality, those mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, Pabst-drinking, cousin-fucking anal smears that give him money, attend his university, agree with his hatred, and contribute to his fame DESERVE criticism.

[Midlodemocrat]

85. LOL. Thank you.

Exactly what I was saying.

[GiovanniC]

93. I'm Not Entirely Sure It IS Exactly What You Were Saying

But you're welcome regardless.

[Midlodemocrat]

99. What I was saying is that is entirely

possible to criticize without insulting, so you are probably right, not exactly what you were saying.

I am not big on the insults anyway. I think it demeans a discussion/disagreement if a person has to result to insults.

[arwalden]

112. So What's The Correct Response...

... when dealing with those UNREASONABLE and sensitive folks who pretend that every critical word is an (ahem) "insult"?

That seems to be their "out" for not having to answer to anything. Just call it an insult and walk away. How easy was that?! Cool!

[Midlodemocrat]

122. Telling people to

'leave the church', you're a jerk if you stay' IS insulting and does nothing to promote good will.

The OP and I were just asking for the insulting stuff to stop. Why is that such a hot button for you?

I disagree with a great deal about a lot of things, but I am able to express that without insulting people or accusing them of things that they are not.

[arwalden]

132. My "Hot Button" Is Being Told To Shut Up Under The Guise Of

... "stop insulting me".

<< The OP and I were just asking for the insulting stuff to stop.>>

Who gets to decide what's insulting and what's legitimate? Who appoints them? What an honor that will be! (Frankly I think many people around here are confusing the meanings of "uncomfortable" and "insulting".)

"Stop Insulting Me" is the new "Get Over It" or "Talk To The Hand" and "Been There-Done That" or "Same Shit Different Day".

<< Why is that such a hot button for you? >>

I could ask the same of you... but what I'm really interested in is why you are you trying to psychoanalyze me? I'm not the subject here... I'm just the MESSENGER, not the MESSAGE.

<< "Telling people to"leave the church', you're a jerk if you stay' IS insulting and does nothing to promote good will. >>

While I have questioned why people who call themselves "progressive" continue to support the church... I have NEVER said the things you try to attribute to me.

I've never said "leave the church" NOR have I ever said "you're a jerk if you stay". It looks like you're putting words into someone's mouth. So to speak.

[Midlodemocrat]

143. I didn't say you did.

Some very unpleasant stuff was posted elsewhere.

The OP and I were just asking for the insulting stuff to stop. You are free to criticize the church all you wish, I never said nor implied that you couldn't. Nor would I.

It is possible to discuss/disagree without insulting someone, or questioning their motives.

[arwalden]

156. Ohhhh.... Uh-huh. I see.

<<You are free to criticize the church all you wish, I never said nor implied that you couldn't. Nor would I. >>

Well, that's a relief. Now the only thing we have to worry about is trying to figure out what's "fair" and what's "off limits".

At least you're not defending (or joining) the contingent of folks around here to frequently attempt to quell ANY criticism of the church by claiming that such things are "insulting" and "Catholic bashing".

So what's the correct response for those people who do that?

[Midlodemocrat]

158. Man, you have some 'tude there dude.

My God, you are attacking me like I am a rabid dog. I don't even know you and some of the stuff you have posted is really out there.

Let's just agree to disagree.

[arwalden]

161. Way To Be Dismissive, Dude.

<< My God, you are attacking me like I am a rabid dog. I don't even know you and some of the stuff you have posted is really out there. >>

I have not attacked you! Where have I attacked you? What have I said that was a personal attack on YOU?

<< Let's just agree to disagree. >>

Sure, dude. Whatever, dude.

[Midlodemocrat]

3. Here, Here.

Also, take hope in the choice of the name. Benedict XV was a calm voice many times throughout his reign and perhaps we will see that as well.

[The Blue Knight]

4. What Xithras said.

Amen, brother.

[CO Liberal]

5. But Mohammad Was Never a Member of NAMBLA

The new Pope, on the other hand, was a member of Hitler Youth.

[Midlodemocrat]

16. Forced into it and never bought into the whole thing.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

31. nevertheless, isn't it accurate to say he was in the Hitler Youth?

that's being historically accurate, even if, as you allege, he was forced into it and never bought into the whole thing.

I understand you find it alarming for people to refer to him as a nazi, because that was decades ago, but it is still accurate, no?

[Catholic Sensation]

37. then you have no problem with hannity calling sen. robert byrd

KKK Byrd, right?

[Lerkfish]

51. If its accurate.

[CO Liberal]

81. Robert Byrd Publicly Denounced the KKK On Numerous Occasions

Until and unless i see a similar statement from the new Pope, nothing changes in my mind.

[Catholic Sensation]

127. in the link you provided to me

"He (Ratzinger) has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime"

there, he said he was opposed. Good enough?

[CO Liberal]

152. I Guess that Is

Time will tell how far he has distanced himself from Nazi teachings.

[Midlodemocrat]

70. Good question.

I never really thought about equating the forced participants of the Hitler Youth movement with Nazis who voluntarily signed on.

I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I do believe that he expressed remorse for the association and that he was forced into it, but for the life of me, I can't remember where I read that.

[tx_dem41]

142. Its not historically accurate....

if it isn't presented in its historical context. Since, the statement isn't, its not accurate, its misleading.

[Lerkfish]

148. So when I say he "was" in the Hitler Youth, that's not historical context?

how much more context do you need?

[tx_dem41]

154. Two things at the very least....that he went into the Hitler Youth...

shortly after a law was passed by the Germans compelling membership by everyone and that he since stated his opposition to the Nazis.

[MadHound]

72. Coerced, yes, but not forced

The man had a choice, either join the Hitler Youth, or shun it and be ostracized or sent to the concentration camps. Many many Germans quietly resisted, and didn't choose the Hitler Youth(a knew a fair number in my home town growing up). Yes they suffered, some died, but they didn't sell their souls

Ratzinger, rather than do the moral thing, and take the suffering that would have been heaped on him, instead took the cowards way out and joined up. In my opinion the man sold his soul, and nothing he has done since then has redeemed it. Yet this is the man chosen:wtf:
Surely somebody in the Vatican must see the symbolism here.

Oh, and just for the record, yes, I was baptized as a Roman Catholic. Later, I was also baptized as a Southern Baptist. Thus, I can criticize all spectrums of Christianity, eh?

[Midlodemocrat]

105. But, I remembered reading that he was just a kid.

So maybe he gets a free pass. :shrug:

You can criticize all spectrums of Christianity you would like. My comment was really meant for people who can't seem to criticize without attacking and insulting.

[MadHound]

123. Sorry, but youth doesn't get a free pass

He was what, fourteen. Gee, at fourteen I had already been protesting the Vietnam war since I was nine, and had worked my first Presidential campaign(McGovern). A lot of states here in the US allow fourteen year olds to marry, as do many countries. You're not fully formed yet, I grant you, but you defintetively know the difference between right and wrong, and which side you should be on.

[Midlodemocrat]

151. I don't agree with that.

I don't think equating a war protest with joining a movement to stay alive are the same thing.

I don't know if I wouldn't have chosen the same path faced with the choices he had. I would like to think I would do the right thing, but as a 14 year old kid, I just don't know.

[MadHound]

165. Sorry friend, but I knew way too many Germans

Who were exactly in the same position that Ratzinger was, at the same age, and they did the right thing, because they knew it was the moral way. Yes they suffered for it, one reason why they immigrated to the US. But each and every one of them still says(at least those still alive) that they wouldn't have done anything different.

Ratzinger took the cowards way out, and his age doesn't give him an excuse.

[CO Liberal]

77. He Might Say That NOW

But did he say that THEN?????

[Catholic Sensation]

92. we'll never know, but guilty till proven innocent eh?

how "liberal" of you. Much like your views on young people.

[CO Liberal]

104. Before You Continue to Bash Me....

...you might want to read this thread on the GD board that backs my position:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3504425

[Catholic Sensation]

121. "Before we were conscripted"

conscripted. drafted. they didn't willingly join the Hitler Youth. they didn't sign up, they even said they opposed the Nazi regime. You didn't prove shit except they didn't choose to die, which I know most people would do. But you may be more brave than most people, and would have said "send me to Dachau".

I doubt it though.

[CO Liberal]

147. You can Never Prove Anything....

...to someone with a closed mind.

And when I opened MY mind 30 years ago, I left the Catholic Church.

[Catholic Sensation]

150. does that open mind of yours extend to thin and young people?

or just atheists?

[solinvictus]

18. And Senator Byrd was a member of the KKK

while an adult. Does that make him more complicitous than Ratzinger, who was a kid at the time?

[Lerkfish]

44. yet both statements, AFAIK, are still accurate.

Byrd was in the KKK, and Ratzinger was in the Hitler youth.

Unless you're avocating some sort of 1984 memory hole, where we selectively disremember history.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

25. There is so much wrong with what you just said...

I have totally lost all respect for you. Ratzinger was forced into the Hitler Youth. And since then, he's committed his life to the Catholic Church.
Duckie

[CO Liberal]

96. As an Ex-Catholic...

...I don't regard committing your life to the Church as a "get-out-of-jail-free" card. Over the centuries, thousands have been tortured and killed in the name of the Church.

Until and unless I see something IN WRITING that shows that Ratzinger publicly denounced his membership in Hitler Youth, I will assume he was blindly following the crowd. Like so many of his contemporaries in that era.

ON EDIT: Here's something from the GD Board that backs my position:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3504425

[YellowRubberDuckie]

111. Those children were FORCED into the Hitler Youth.

God, apparently children should also be held as responsible as adults for everything. God, I used to think you were smart and openminded. How very very sad I am for you. You get pissed off when someone else shits all over you and your beliefs, but when you do it it's just fine. Nice.
I just read your so-called back up...That doesn't back you up. He said resistance was futile, but he never used a rifle against the enemy. I don't know how that backs you up, CO, but it pretty much makes your argument crap. He was simply trying to stay alive, along with his brother.

Duckie

[YellowRubberDuckie]

128. One more thing:

You don't know what you would do when faced with death. Saying that he blindly followed the crowd is not accurate. Committing your life to the Church isn't a get out of jail free card, but if you commit your life to God and are truly sorry for what you did, God forgives. I'd love to see you as a child, pissing yourself when one of Hitler's men either said join or die. As a child you'd give up to. Children aren't held responsible the same way as adults. As a liberal, you should know that.
Duckie

[MollyStark]

27. Most German children were

Do you hate all germans then?

[beam me up scottie]

39. MY MOTHER wasn't.

unfuckingbelievable.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IrateCitizen]

30. As were pretty much ALL German boys during that time...

It's not as if they were living in a free society in which joining the Hitler Youth was as much a conscious decision as joining the Boy Scouts.

I find the absolutism from many people on these boards to be stunning at times. This is one of those times.

[BurtWorm]

49. They were just following orders.

I mean, come on, people!






:sarcasm:

[MollyStark]

95. You can say that again!

The invective is hysterical.

[Inland]

41. Was he a member of the Nazi Party?

They calling him a Nazi is false.

[Balbus]

101. No, he wasn't - eom

[trotsky]

6. Who's "we"?

The conservative group of cardinals, 95% of whom were appointed by JP2, whose numbers will only grow with Ratz now appointing them?

[Wabbajack]

8. Obviously over 2/3s

of the Cardinals are REALLY fucking conservative and I expect the new ones he names will be as well so don't hold your breath.

[Don Claybrook]

9. Sorry, can't comply

Calling Benedict a Nazi is like calling a spade a spade. I feel bad for you as a bisexual Catholic, for you are now governed/ruled/represented by someone who hates both your politics and your sexual orientation. And although I'm not a Catholic, I understand that the Pope wields a great deal of influence around the world. So I won't curtail my negative comments about a Nazi neo-conservative pope in order to spare the feelings of some good Catholic folks. It's just too important.

Thanks.

[Xithras]

113. Again, you can oppose Benedict without insulting the church.

There's a big difference between disagreeing and opposing his views and history (which I do), and calling the church a Nazi tool while equating supporting it with being a Nazi party member (which others on DU have done, and which is what pissed me off).

[Don Claybrook]

120. No, I really think there are droves of good Catholics

Good people, etc. I don't count their new leadership among this number.

[Lerkfish]

11. so, help me out...does it happen that when someone becomes pope

all previous events in his life are erased, both good and bad?

[ananda]

12. Excuse me..

.. but how is insulting a man who is so insultable an insult to religion or someone's belief system?

Ratzinger was a Nazi.
He is ultra orthodox and reactionary.
He says that Protestants are heretics.
He is extremely anti-woman, just like JPII.

I see nothing to like about the man or to respect him for.


Sue, a proud liberal Dem who believes that the pope is just a man who
should have to answer for his views

[Xithras]

53. Your points...

Ratzinger was a Nazi.
Ratzinger was a Hitler Youth, not a Nazi party member. According to all accounts he even avoided the HY until he was forced to join, as membership was compulsory.

By your logic, Franklin Roosevelt and John F Kennedy are evil racists because they belonged to the Democratic party at the same time Democrats were terrorizing blacks in the south.

He is ultra orthodox and reactionary.
Agreed, sadly.

He says that Protestants are heretics.
Umm...they are. The dictionary definition of Heretic is a person who defies the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. By definition, that means Protestants. Nothing insulting there, it's just a word.

He is extremely anti-woman, just like JPII.
Not anti-woman, just a fundie. Minor quibble.

[tedzbear]

98. Ratzinger was also a Nazi soldier who wielded an anti-aircraft gun.

That was at 17 or older. Many Germans his age chose the resistance and possible death. Ratzinger chose to survive by joining the dark side.

[Maru Kitteh]

134. I'd like to hear one of the Nazi apologists

explain that one away.

[Xithras]

153. Not a Nazi soldier, the Wehrmacht.

The Nazi party soldiers were SS. Ratzinger was a draftee into the regular German Army.

Oh, and there was no widescale resistance to the Nazi's in Germany during 1944. There were some high level resistance plans by Rommell and others, but nothing any joe blow could "volunteer" for. Unlike Poland, Italy, and France, the Nazi's knew who their enemies were before the war started, and by 1944 just about all of their dissidents had been herded into work camps or executed in the concentration camps. There was no resistance for him to join.

[BuyingThyme]

59. Come one now.

You're just being intelligent here.

[aeolian]

13. So...you've got no problem with your dearly held faith being led by

the Hitler Youth?

He should be absolved and declared holy simply because a bunch of octogenerians in silly hats voted him to wear the silliest hat?

Would you so easily follow any leader, down whatever path, simply because he leads your church?

[LynneSin]

15. You said it best.....

ole yourself with this fact: Ratzinger is old and probably won't live long. We may have another shot at getting someone more progressive into the pontificate in just a few more years.

He's 78 now and the last pope served 26 years until he died at age 84. Hopefully this'll be a quick one (not that I would wish anything bad upon him - just worried he's going to wish bad upon others)

[lala_rawraw]

23. I am very shocked

At the name he chose... he must know of this prophecy. This is sick and the fact that Bush supports him just shows you this mainipulation.

[happynewyear]

38. I agree

a total disgrace!

:kick:

[Montauk6]

89. Hi there, Lala! Could you please shed some light on this prophecy?

This is the first I'm hearing about it, ignorant heretic that I am.

[happynewyear]

32. some of these Germans

live to be incredibly old. My godmother was full-blooded German and she lived to be 101; grandaunt 95.

So don't go holding your breath waiting for Ratzinger to die. He might be around a very long time.

We need to be worried about :wtf: he's going to do or try to go. As a Catholic I am HORRIFIED!

:puke:

[lala_rawraw]

17. Well, not like I wrote

The prophecy they are playing into:



http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

[Inland]

19. Chance of pickup of votes from worried catholics lasted two minutes.

as the self righteous condemnation comes out.

It's Easter weekend all over again.

It's more "us vs. them" then any rational discussion, and you are right, it plays right into the hands of the theocons.

So much for a pickup of votes from worried catholics. That lasted almost two minutes.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

21. sorry, the guy's an asshole

who supports exploitation of the third world. he is "horrified" by marxist thinking at eurpoean univerities and has cndemned liberation theologans

i'm not going to act like he's some great guy because he get to wear the hat. hell, this guy would probably support the war in iraq

my gf's catholic and i respect her and have even attended mass with her from time to time, but i can't support this prick

[MsTryska]

26. was he technicall a nazi tho?

I realize he was of age during the Third Reich, but it appears he was also a deserter form the army. On what grounds did he desert? Is he a nazi if he chose not to fight witht he nazis?

[tedzbear]

109. He deserted in 1945 once the Nazis were falling apart...

...otherwords when it was a safe bet and everyone else was doing it.

[beam me up scottie]

28. "insulting him is the same as insulting the church itself"

Sorry, I won't insult you personally but the pope and church are not immune to criticism.

[UdoKier]

29. Wait, but both statements are factually true.

So what's the problem?

[monobrau]

33. Offense intended

Sorry, but if you want to lay down with pigs, you're going to smell of shit.
This isn't about God, this is about sick, bitter twisted old men who are a blight on civilised society.

[Megami Kitsune]

88. Ja, ich was Hitler Jungen, sondern...

That was part of Ratzinger's campaign speech - "Ja, ich
was Hitler Jungen, sondern ich habe mit einer 9-Jahrer mädchen
nicht geschlafen. Seig Heil!"  

[sorry my German is a bit rusty]

For those wondering about the Islamic source which brings
about the charge of pedophilia (no the fundies for all their
many faults did not just make that up):

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six
years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine
years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e.
till his death).  

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari (Haadith)

[loro mi dicevano]

34. Being in Hitler Youth was not an option. It was all but compulsory.

I strongly dislike and disagree with Ratzinger's views, but I think that suggesting that he was in a group like this by choice is ridiculous.

[Amaya]

48. I don't buy that excuse

There are always choices.

[loro mi dicevano]

54. Oh, bullshit. This was Hitler. Yes, there was a choice, but it was

"Go along with us or die."

[roguevalley]

170. It should be noted that this 'do it or die' excuse doesn't hold water

on inspection. No one in the roving death squads throughout Europe who said no was ever punished. They weren't. Its a fallacy that is used by those who participated to mitigate their participation.

[Xithras]

64. Did the Jews have a choice?

In Nazi Germany, you did what you were told or you were killed. Sometimes you did what you were told and were killed anyway. Being openly anti-Nazi in Nazi Germany earned hundreds of thousands of German liberals one way trips to the death camps.

And keep in mind that he was a CHILD.

[BurtWorm]

71. You mean the Eichmann defense is valid?

"I vass chost vollowing orters."

[Xithras]

131. We're not talking about war crimes here.

Ratzinger wasn't SS, never rounded up Jews, or did anything else that would rise above the level of standard soldiery. He was a Hitler Youth, which meant that he went camping, wore a funny uniform, sang songs, and marched around a lot. After that he was briefly a run of the mill soldier, just like any other German soldier of the time. By all accounts, he never even fired a gun at anybody.

He got drafted, nothing more. Holding him responsible for Nazi atrocities is like holding American Vietnam draftees responsible for starting the war there.

[BurtWorm]

137. Okay, let's just hold him accountable for Ratzinger atrocities

like stabbing Hans Kueng in the back and abetting the murder of the Catholic Church in Europe.

[arwalden]

35. Oh, Whaaaaah!

<< Insulting someones religion isn't a good way to make friends,>>

And those who choose to take deep personal offense at every unflattering word or critical sentence spoken about the Catholic church or its leaders will find it difficult to keep friends.

<< and since the Pope is considered to be the voice of God through the church, >>

Voice of god? Then why is it so political?

<< insulting him is the same as insulting the church itself >>

Yeah? So? Why should anyone be so personally affronted that others have issues with the church itself? Should those who have issues keep their mouths shut and say NOTHING because they might risk "offending" the sensitives?


"Whaaah! You hate the pope!
You mean old Catholic Bashers!"

[Inland]

55. Saying Something True vs Saying Bullshit. Learn the difference.

For example, your posts suggesting that Ratzinger was a Nazi--which I sure can't find anywhere--and suggesting that Catholics should consider their contributions as going to the Nazi Party---is just plain inflammatory bullshit.

Nobody cares who is insulted by truth. But pretending that it is true because it is insulting is a dodge.

[arwalden]

58. You Are Incorrect

I did NOT say that "Catholics should consider their contributions as going to the Nazi Party".

[Inland]

65. No, you just implied it as a flamebait insult. Screw your patronizing BS.

"Do you have any reservations about contributing your hard-earned money to support the Nazi Party?"

I can read, dude.

[arwalden]

136. No, Inland... That's Incorrect... I Never Said Any Of Those Things.

Nor did I imply them. Are you thinking of someone else, Dude?

[Inland]

157. I checked, and I was thinking of some other post. My apologies. nt

[arwalden]

162. Apology Accepted.

[Amaya]

36. What are the facts?

Was he involved in Nazism, or not? I'd like to know. Anyone have links to this story?

[Finder]

62. Facts

He was a Hitler's Youth but that was compulsory. His father was an anti-nazi and moved the family often. Ratzinger served in the airforce but says he never fired a shot or was in combat. He deserted and was in a POW camp for a while. I don't think he was a NAZI per se, but neither did he do like JP2 did. The fact he is so outspoken against Marxism and not Nazism says a lot--at least to me.

He is a stauch conservative and a wet dream to the fundies. The church will become more activist against progression and liberal theology. Doctrine will be enforced and will lead to disaster.

[Lerkfish]

75. I agree with your concerns.

IMHO, this spells a step backward politically for the catholic church.
Ratzinger has spoken strongly AGAINST gays and feminists.
I somehow don't think this will be a good thing for catholic women, or gays. further, I think we can expect more activities like that which occurred at the schiavo hospice parking lot.

sad day for catholics, and for the world. IMHO.

[Finder]

40. Like offending a Protestant mentioning Falwell

and his idiocy?

[beam me up scottie]

52. HOW DARE YOU

call falwell an idiot?

[Xithras]

91. One big difference

Falwellians are almost exclusively Republicans, whereas a huge percentage of white and latino Catholics identify themselves as Democrats.

Piss off all of the Republicans that you want, but my post here was simply to point out that you should be careful when insulting people who agree with you politically.

[Finder]

133. Well I don't agree with most Dems either so....

I personally see no difference between the parties in the important matters. I don't agree with anyone who believes religion should be part of politics no matter what party they belong to.

Shutting up in the name of loyalty is the first step to sheeplehood. I see no need to be careful.

[maveric]

42. As a confirmed catholic I am outraged that Ratzinger is now Pope.

He will drag the church down with his hard-line conservatism. And yes his Nazi past, even though it was a youth group, bothers me greatly.

People have been leaving the Roman Catholic Church quite steadily for the past 30 years or so due to its inability to grasp a progressive agenda. I fear that Pope Nosferatu will drive more sheep away from the flock.

[Hugin]

73. I agree.

Yeah, he's technically "the leader of the world's largest
church."

But, not by much.

1. Christianity 1,900,174,000 33.6

- Roman Catholic 1,058,069,000 18.7

- Protestant 391,143,000 6.9

- Orthodox 174,184,000 3.1

- Anglican 78,038,000 1.4

- Other Christians 199,707,000 3.5

And look who's catching up.

2. Islam 1,033,453,000 18.3

From...

http://www.xist.org/global/religion_top.php

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Nonsense. Benedict, Falwell, Robertson, etc aren't above criticism.

They are all heads of corrupt institutions. I left the Catholic Church decades ago. My wife left it about 1 year ago, after being a faithful Catholic for 60 years because of the corruption and medieval policies.

[beam me up scottie]

83. Leaving the church

is the only way they will get the message.
Good for you and your wife.

[Walt Starr]

67. Sorry, as far as I'm concnered, he's Pope Ratzinger

And I'm sticking to that.

[Caution]

68. So there has never been a bad pope? there can be no discussion of the pope

as man?

This is a remarkably poor choice for pope if only due to his past affiliation with the nazi movement in germany (regardless of what the actual character of that association was, it did exist). If I were a Jew I would feel insulted by the Catholic Church right now.

[Xithras]

102. I never said that you couldn't oppose the pope.

But there are posts here on DU that have basically called the Church a modern extension of the Nazi Party, and that supporting the church is akin to supporting the Nazi's. THAT is what I find insulting.

I oppose Ratzinger myself, and believe that he was one of the worst choices the conclave could have made. But I can oppose HIM without insulting the CHURCH or its billion members.

[Lerkfish]

118. wow. I haven't read that yet. I've only seen people pointing out that

Ratzinger was a nazi...which he was.

I have yet to see anyone "basically called the Church an modern extension of the Nazi Party, and that supporting the church is akin to supporting the Nazi's"

can you provide a link to such a statement? I've missed it.

However, I'm not sure you want to go TOO far in asking us to look up the historic relationship between the church and the Nazi party. Not too sure it would make you happy. The church was very friendly with Hitler at the time, If I recall correctly.

[catastrophicsuccess]

74. Your New Pope is the one

who directed that John Kerry not receive communion. Its not a Republican meme, its the policy of your facsist church.

[Maru Kitteh]

76. I think you're wrong

Just because I hate Bush does not mean I hate America - that's a freepers logic.

Just because I find Ratzinger a detestable Nazi does not mean I hate the Roman church. I find the Cardinals choice to be a giant middle finger to the American RCC and all progressive peoples of the world. As a Democrat I stand against regressive bastards like him no matter what clothes they wear, and let's be real, all he did was change his clothes today. The evil inside is just the same.

[devilgrrl]

82. What stupid analogy!

Ratzinger's a prophet? According to who?

[catastrophicsuccess]

90. except that Mohammed wasn't a pedophile n/t

[Megami Kitsune]

108. OH, really?

A fiftysomething man having sex with a nine year old isn't pedophilia?

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari (most popular Haadith):

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

[Lars39]

97. So when is the Pope/Vatican going to give up politics?

Are they going to stop using their influence to interfere with people's healthcare? Can't have it both ways.

[lala_rawraw]

115. You have managed to insult two religions

by a useless comment. could have phrased it better, don't you think?

[Xithras]

124. That was the point.

Few here would dare attack Islam because of the actions of its founder, and yet MANY posts here on DU have attacked the Catholic church over the past few hours because of the history of the Pope.

For the record, I don't consider Islam a pedophilic religion because its founder slept with a 9 year old, and I don't consider Catholicism a Nazi religion because its leader was once a member of the Hitler Youth.

No religion is perfect, and blindly attacking any religion over the actions of a single person is stupid and alienating. That's what I was trying to convey in that title.

[Megami Kitsune]

139. Yes, but if the founder of a religion was so reprehensible...

then what reason is there to view the relgion as something worth while?

I'm not saying a pedophile is innately a liar, but it's not the type of person I would turn to for advice on my immortal soul.

[Walt Starr]

125. IMO, Ratzinger EMBRACES Nazi philosophy to this day. n/t

[tx_dem41]

155. What a train wreck.

The posts on this thread are just full of intellectual dishonesty and self-denial. Its amazing how we can become just as narrow-minded as our enemies (read: Freepers) when we think it serves our purpose.

[Lerkfish]

163. Be specific: not clear who you're insulting personally against DU rules.

don't know whether to be insulted or not.

for the record, many of us are criticizing the pope, not other DU members.

[TahitiNut]

167. It fascinates me that "bashing" a Pope is equated to "bashing" a religion.

I guess some people can't distinguish between worshiping the teachings of Jesus and defending the behavior of a human being elected Pope. Too bad. :shrug:

[roguevalley]

171. Since papal infallibility was an invention of a retrogressive pope

in the 1800's, I find that the most stupid part of Catholicism. No living person is infallible. Rather like the Apostle of the Mormons being infallible.

Since the church is headed by a man, he is not exempt by his position from criticism. I find that institutions survive their leaders, all men, all fallible. Not being allowed to criticise the church is bullshit. There isn't a person around who hasn't decked the protestants. No one seems to care about the feelings of devout protestants here. So don't make an exception. If I can't criticize a legitimate target like this pope, don't criticize the loons in my religious branch. Don't try and mitigate it by saying they are repugs and political. So is Ratzinger.

[Generator]

172. Well if the shoes fit

I didn't know about Mohammad though. Young wives heh? Well, he is long long dead and about as relevant as Jesus for how people follow what he acutally said. The pope is alive to affect millions today. Big difference.

Oh, he's probably not a Nazi. Just no friend to women and Gays. Two of my favorite groups-also not well treated under the Nazis. Abortion was illegal in Nazi germany and I think we all know what happened to the Gays.

HISTORY please evolve. Please. The same old story is such a bore.