What should be done about undocumented persons/workers?

[Zorra]

Poll question: What should be done about undocumented persons/workers?

What should be done about undocumented persons/workers that illegally enter/live/work in the US?

Just wondering how a cross section of interested DUers might consider dealing with the immigration issues that have been discussed here recently. This poll, although inspired by the controversy generated by the recent actions of the "Minutemen" group, is not about the "Minutemen". It is about finding a route to a reasonable and viable solution to issues concerning undocumented persons/workers that enter the US illegally.

My apologies, the choices in this poll are pretty limited; please, by all means, if you have other suggestions for dealing with the undocumented person/worker situation, check "Other" and post your ideas. Thanks!

[cestpaspossible]

1. Selective enforcement of laws weakens the rule of law.

The existing laws should be enforced or changed.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Enforce and strengthen legislation

aimed at the companies and individuals who employ undocumented aliens. THEY are the real problem. If only documented people could get work, there would be no problem. But most companies/individuals employing illegals are either never arrested or given paltry fines which are basically a slap on the wrist.

[Salviati]

4. Yes...

make it economically unprofitable to hire undocumented workers, and the problem will go away. Sure, the price of many goods may have to go up, but living in a fantasy world is breeding an unsustainable economic and political landscape...

[Zorra]

8. The problem here seems to be that these laws are seldom enforced,

and as you said, when they are enforced, employers that hire undocumented workers are basically given a slap on the wrist.

So how does government insure that these laws are enforced? This is a major part of the problem: Our pro-business government is not enforcing the law in cases when businesses break the law. Will stiffer penalties deter the hiring of undocumented workers if businesses know that the law will usually not be enforced?

Here is an alternative POV, personally I neither agree or disagree with it.

Penalties for Hiring Illegal Aliens
(INA Section 274A)

Fines beginning at no less than $250 and up to $10,000 per alien may be assessed for knowingly hiring an illegal alien. The amount of the fee escalates depending on whether there are repeated violations. If there is found to be a pattern or practice of violations, employers may be sentenced to up to six months of imprisonment.
snip---
Even in cases in which the immigration authorities have evidence that employers are in violation of the law in employing illegal aliens--1an average between 1994-98 of 1,660 warnings and fines, which dropped to an average of 427 between 1999-20002--the agency tends to back off if an employer pleads ignorance of the law or fights a fine that has been imposed. Of the 15,000 cases, the INS imposed fines in only 3,765 cases--only one quarter of them. The amount of the assessed fines was $34.5 million, but the amount actually collected was only $14.5 million. Of the 10 largest fines assessed by the INS up to 1994, five ended up negotiated down to zero and the other five were reduced substantially.
snip---
The way to make the system work efficiently and even-handedly is for the federal government to assume the responsibility for verifying which aliens are legally in the country and entitled to take jobs. That will remove the onus of possible employment discrimination from the employer and create a more level playing field among competitors. Several national commissions have come to the same conclusion and have so recommended to the Executive and Legislative Branches.

All that remains is for Congress to adopt it as a national mandatory program. However, for Congress to take action, it will need to feel enough public pressure for action to offset opposition from seasonal crop agriculture and other employers that have become addicted to cheap, easily exploited illegal workers.

http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1188&c=13

[Sentath]

15. At the risk of being labeled a 'business unfriendly democrat'

I'll add my voice to this thread.

Maybe the answer to that criticism is "No, we're being tough on crime. Isn't that something you critics have always wanted?"

[mikehiggins]

3. Fine employers

of illegal aliens $10,000 per employee per incident. Thus, if a crop grower hires a hundred illegal aliens, well you can do the math.

The ONLY way to stop this problem is to eliminate the profit motive behind it. Only a total moron thinks for a second that this is about "helping" poor Mexicans find a better way of life. It isn't the people running small "mom and pop" farms like the Kents in Smallville that are hiring these people. Mostly its "subcontractors" to larger firms like Archer Daniel Midlands, etc.

It isn't the US that made Mexico what it is. It isn't US workers who should pay the price for it either. If Mexicans want a better life let them fight for it at home and create a government that will work in their behalf.

[SlowDownFast]

18. Amen.

Pretty simple stuff, really.

[brokensymmetry]

5. Target employers,

And not just for fines; that tends to come out of the shareholders' pockets.

No, punish those who do the hiring as individuals. That means big fines, of at least $10,000 each, plus costs of repatriation of the illegal alien, plus court costs. Add in a year with Club Fed for each violation.

Those who smuggle aliens would face penalties of 10 years per offense.

Anyone who turned in an illegal alien would get $1,000 for each one deported - and that cost would be added to the employer fine listed above.

One other thing - if the illegal alien committed a crime and got caught for it, the employer would get to join the former employee in prison (or jail) for the full length of the sentence.

And - this applies not only to businesses, but to Biff and Muffy in the 'burbs who want a maid, a nanny, or whatever.

[Jose Diablo]

9. But, but, but who will mow our lawns

pick our fruit and vegetables, dig our ditches, haul the trash, clean the chickens in the poultry farms, wash our cars?

You are suggesting the pillars of our communities are responsible for luring people into illegally crossing our borders. All they want is to get the jobs done, at a minimum cost of course.

Our representatives will not allow these pillars in our communities, and generous contributors to the representatives I might add, to be subjected to such harsh treatment. Nope, the illegal aliens will continue to cross our borders, more or less unimpeded. Also, the various special visa's will be issued as needed to help keep the costs down for certain employers. This you can be sure about.

[brokensymmetry]

10. You're right, of course.

After all, we can't have the elites paying good wages with employment benefits, now, can we?

So things will continue as they are. :(

[Zorra]

16. I agree. Nothing will be done about it. Over 600,000 undocumented

persons/workers crossed the border undetected last year, and another 1 million were apprehended. These numbers will inevitably increase as the global economy continues to slow down.

It is estimated that there are over 9 million undocumented persons/workers in the US at this time.

Bureau of Labor Statistics Unemployment figures March 2005:

There were 1.6 million persons who were marginally attached to the labor
force in March, about the same as a year earlier. (Data are not seasonally
adjusted.) These individuals wanted and were available to work and had looked
for a job sometime in the prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed,
however, because they did not actively search for work in the 4 weeks preceding
the survey. The number of discouraged workers, at 480,000 in March, was little
changed from a year earlier. Discouraged workers, a subset of the marginally
attached, were not currently looking for work specifically because they believed
no jobs were available for them. The other 1.1 million marginally attached had
not searched for work for reasons such as school attendance or family responsi-
bilities. (See table A-13.)

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

[solinvictus]

6. Target employers..

Assess a fine for hiring an illegal, knowingly or otherwise, at 10% of the company's net worth.

[gaia_gardener]

11. With the exception of someone hiring

a person to mow their lawn (or something like that), how does an employer unknowingly hire an illegal? Doesn't every job require a W-4? You have to show proof of identity and either citizenship or your legality to work.

The only way an employer could unknowingly hire an illegal is if they are also breaking the tax laws.

[UdoKier]

7. Highway patrol should turn them over to Border Patrol for deportation

...when they are stopped for tickets. Basically, at any point where they are expected to show ID, and are unable to, they should be investigated and deported if they are not US citizens.

Businesses suspected of employing illegals should be investigated, any illegals found deported, and owners of said businesses should be fined heavily for each illegal uncovered.

[Bridget Burke]

26. And all brown-skinned US Citizens or legal aliens......

Must always have "Their Papers" with them. Time for a National ID Card!

[UdoKier]

39. No.but there are instances when all people, regardless of color

must present ID. That is a good time to present proof of citizenship.

[laura888]

12. Your poll needs to be revised to include fines for employers...

...who hire illegal aliens.

This is the obvious solution.

[Zorra]

14. There already are fines for employers that hire undocumented workers.

Please see post #8 for some details if you are interested.

On edit: Here's the law:

INA: Section 274A - Unlawful Employment of Aliens

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/statutes/whd/0006.iana.htm

[laura888]

20. Then enforcement of fines is the answer n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Leave the poor people alone.

I remember a time when Democrats stood up for the poor.

[amazona]

17. do you also support the right of scabs to break unions?

In my humble opinion, we need to have better border controls such that unknown persons are not sneaking into the country. And when illegal immigrants are found inside our borders, they should be deported if they have committed no crime other than illegal entry and jailed if they have committed additional crimes. Their employers should be fined at a minimum sufficient costs to pay for the deportation costs.

"Competition" for labor should not be unlimited. No one supports the right of a scab to help break a strike at a union plant. Yet the scab just wants to pick up some money to support his family too.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Zorra]

19. I have a question for anyone that voted for the first choice, "Nothing.

They contribute to the economy and do not create more competition in the US labor market".

How would you feel, and what would you do, if an undocumented worker took your job away because they worked for lower wages, or you were refused a job that you were seeking because the employer hired undocumented workers for lower wages?

[AlienGirl]

21. Come down harder on the corporations that hire them

If the biggest problem is that they're willing to work for sub-minimum wage, thereby competing with American workers, then come down like a ton of bricks on the people hiring them and paying sub-minimum wage. Make the penalties for paying *anyone* lower-than-minimum wages so severe that the corps won't dare try it; that way, the companies would try to cover their asses by paying undocumented workers at least minimum wage, the incentive to hire "cheap" undocumented workers will be gone, and the problem will resolve itself.

Tucker

[Roland99]

22. Two things....very simple, really

1) Any illegal found in the U.S. is given two options: 1) File for a green card and, if approved, pay taxes like the rest of us...don't be a leech on the system. If not approved, get the fuck out; 2) Get the fuck out.

2) Increase border patrols and physical impediments to crossing the border from Mexico (I don't think Canada is a big source of illegal immigrants looking for better pay or better health care.)

[Bridget Burke]

27. Will they get a refund for the taxes they DID pay?

Sales tax, in many states. And the portion of their rent the landlords take to pay taxes on their property.

Canadians tend to be whiter, so they're OK!

[Roland99]

29. Nope.

And, I resent your implication that I'm racist.

Show me some reports of Canadians illegally emigrating to the U.S. and living as illegal immigrants and I'll add them in, too.

[countryjake]

30. Know anyone who works the deportation branch of INS or

Border Control?

#1) Get Real!

[chicagiana]

35. That won't work for illegals, but for "guest workers" ...

Guest workers (LZ-1s, H-1Bs) should be offered the option to either file for permanent residency or get the fuck out.

And while we're at it, every fucking single one of them should be audited to see if they paid their taxes. Most DO NOT. And they are often VERY bold and brash in telling you that they don't pay their taxes because no one MAKES them.

That would probably clear out about 50% of the guest workers. 100% of which we never needed in the first place.

Either decide you want to be an American ... or go the FUCK home!!!!!

[Roland99]

37. It works for illegals when they're found to be illegals

that's what I meant.

If he have to deport them one-by-one, so be it.

[Pushed To The Left]

23. Border security, border security, border security,

Did I mention border security? If the borders were truly secure, we wouldn't have to worry about most of these issues! It doesn't just apply to illegal aliens. It also applies to national security! We can see the phoniness of the right wing on this issue. George W. Bush: anti-border security. Barbara Boxer: pro-border security!!

However, I do like the idea of going after the cheap labor conservatives that hire illegal aliens. But border security should be our #1 priority.

[nonconformist]

24. Heavy fines and stiff penalties for employers that hire illegal workers

Coupled with efforts to help those people become legal workers or citizens if they want to remain.

There has to be a serious detriment against companies that hire people they can pay chump change to under the table. Some may argue that action like this would hurt the economy when labor prices rise. I argue that it would balance out as CEO's would be forced to reduce their own pay and those of upper management to keep their companies afloat. Of course there is the issue of outsourcing, but hiring undocumented illegal workers is the equivalent of outsourcing right here in our own country. I counter that with government incentives to encourage companies to keep their jobs in the US.

It is a problem, we can't deny that it is. The right likes to claim that undocumented workers take jobs that legal citizens could have, but that's a weak argument as we all know - most of these jobs are unskilled and considered very undesirable to most US citizens. However, if employers are forced to pay living wages, taxes and the employees are protected by our labor laws, it's better for everyone and makes those jobs ideal for LEGAL migrant workers. I think the biggest problems arise when cheap labor allow employers to not pay living wages to individuals which then bogs down social services. In some areas, this is a serious issue. And the corporations are laughing all the way to the bank while the workers still struggle to buy a loaf of bread.

I have great empathy for people who are just trying to make a living, but that doesn't mean we can allow illegal activity to run rampant. In the end, the corporations that take advantage of this are benefiting far more than these still very poor illegal workers. My stepfather's family legally immigrated from Mexico and made very decent lives for themselves. Encouraging legal immigration and documented workers in conjunction with forcing corporations to follow the law is the sane, civilized and empathetic solution.

[Sapphire Blue]

25. Mandatory livable minimum wage for every worker in this country,

... along with full benefits, whether 'legal' worker or not.

Would employers be as eager to hire 'illegal' immigrants or 'Guest Workers' if they were required to provide decent wage & benefit packages equally to everyone (and could no longer abuse 'illegal' immigrants)?

[sweetheart]

40. Yes, a fair deal for all human beings

Then the issue becomes moot. All workers are put on the same footing,
and no advantage goes towards trying to hire "illegal" ones, as the
very concept is removed from the lexicon.

[Sapphire Blue]

44. Until the global proletariat joins hands in solidarity

... against the corporations, the infighting and descent will continue. It’s time to focus our aim against the opposition, not each other.

[sweetheart]

45. We can start with the world in front of us

And there, we can give goodwill to those we are empowered to enfranchise.
If it is "illegal" mexicans, then so be it. There is a politically
opportunist approach that some take, towards attackking the people who
have no franchise to oppose (read: "immigrants" who can't vote). This
is subhuman, much like the GOP approach towards the repression of women.

[Sapphire Blue]

46. If we, the global proletariat, do not join hands in solidarity,

... what is goodwill worth, other than a feel-good gesture?

Corporations are waging war on all of us (the global proletariat), attempting to pit us against each other (and typically succeeding in this). We, in the US, accustomed to being the more fortunate, take their bait... in powerless frustration, we attack incoming immigrants, outsourcing, etc... everyone fighting for jobs with steadily decreasing pay & benefits, and increasingly harmful working conditions. The downward spiral continues. And we fail to see the real enemy... the corporations & capitalistic greed that feeds them... with their profits made on the backs of the global proletariat.

[leftofthedial]

28. I think we should use them to further divide Murkans

over an imaginary, "hot-button" issue, with a phony frenzy fueled by our mass media propaganda.

undocumented workers do not take jobs from Murkans

[LSdemocrat]

31. Other: Amnesty, give them visiting worker status and get them on payrolls

It would also help if legal immigration were reformed (no national quotas) and greatly expanded to reduce incentives to come across illegally.

[B Calm]

32. Punish the Cheap Labor Conservatives that hire them!

[enid602]

33. immigration

Our government, like any other responsible developed-world governments should let workers in in a controlled manner when it's in our nation's interest to do so. Those who complain about immigrants forget where we came from.

Interesting to note that one of the first things Clinton tried to do was issue 'national identity cards,' which are used by all other developed (and most developing) countries. With such a card, the government always knows who belongs here and who does not. The Republicans, as I recall, went nukular at the suggestion of a national identity card, citing privacy and Big Brother issues. This was just a smoke screen; they simply didn't want a controlled immigrant flow, as they feared big and small businesses would be hurt without their unending supply of fresh meat. The pugs' rantings about increased security on the border remind me of the war on drugs; if they really wanted to curb the supply of immigrants or drugs, they would do so in a heartbeat.

[chicagiana]

36. ID cards are NOT a privacy issue ...

There is a difference between privacy and anononymity. To be private means your business is your own. To be anonymous means no one will recognize you when you do your business.

The ID standards in this country are woefully behind PC technology. We HAVE to start using digitally signed IDs.

Now, when somebody makes a law that you have to show your ID anytime you buy or sell, then we have a problem. If the IDs are RFID enabled, THEN we have a problem. A passive ID that requires physical contact to authenticate is NOT a threat to privacy.

IN FACT ... there are ways to make such an ID that would INCREASE privacy. See, everybody and their sister wants your Soc Sec # these days. They use this number to index our identities in their databases. This is what allows data mining tools to operate.

A SmartCard ID system would allow a "challenge/response" system that would create a unique, identifiable ID# that is DIFFERENT for everyone that queries. Under my proposal, indexing a database by social security # would be ILLEGAL!!!! That way, creeps like ChoicePoint couldn't sell our identities.

[chicagiana]

34. Multi-faceted strategy ...

Send home illegals.
Run random sting operations at worker pickup areas.
Heavier border enforcement.
Enable state police to aprehend illegal aliens. Pay bounties for those apprehensions.
Streamline deportation hearings to speed the process along.
Empower deputization of citizen groups willing to act as "eyes and ears" (just like your local neighborhood watch.
Electronically tag repeat offenders.
Extra-jurisdictional apprehension and execution of human trafficers.
Forbid those caught in the US illegally from EVER entering legal.
Bounties for individuals identifying illegals.
Heavy fines against employers employing illegals.
Volutary return programs and citizen-ship lotteries for those who willingly submit to the law.
Citizenship for the families of men willing to serve in the US armed services for 6 years.
Constitutional clarification that those persons in the country illegally are not "in jurisdiction" and their children born here are NOT US citizens. Constitutional amendment if that is necessary.

END NAFTA and WTO. They only empower wage-slave drivers in Mexico. NAFTA has NOT eased the burden on the border. The number of migrants has steadily INCREASED!!!!

HEAVY PRESSURE on Mexico to increase it's minimum wage. And the general concept of "foreign minimum wage" for any country that wishes to have access to American markets.

Crack down on foreign disbursement traffickers. Seize the money and put it to work finding more illegals.

Formation of "Mexicana" units ready to intervene in Mexico if the Mexican oligarchy doesn't fix their ways.

One does not justify their presence in my house by washing the windows after they break in.

[enid602]

38. immigration

Better yet, legalize the immigrants that are already here, and employ the technological means at our disposal (such as a national identity card) to control future immigration.

I would argue that strengthening NAFTA, and doing whatever possible to encourage market integration in North America would be more productive than approaching the Mexican Government with a heavy hand.

The European Union is doing a fantastic job of incorporating Eastern Europe; they seem to have a broader vision of their possibilities and role in the world. Meanwhile, the US plods along, not developing new industries or markets, and to a great extent blaming its problems on illegal immigration. A few months ago, Honeywell (a major manufacturing employer here in Phoenix) announced they will outsource 5000 manufacturing jobs abroad in 2005. To Mexico? China? India? Try the Czech Republic! Europe must be doing something right.

[Swamp Rat]

41. I suggest we send republicans to Mexico in the spirit of "fair trade."

:D Descúlpame.:P

[B Calm]

42. Now there's an idea!!

[jdj]

43. apparently so much of the reason many are coming here is

because the jobs that Clinton helped ship to Mexico have now gone to China.

So I guess what goes around comes around,eventually.