dehydrated mexicans looking for work will undo the u.s.

[datasuspect]

what should i believe next?

propaganda anyone?

what is the real issue? them or their brown skin?

who feels offended by hearing spanish being spoken? guess what, you're a racist.

[redqueen]

1. First time I've used this...

:applause:

[datasuspect]

2. i notice a MEGA-ASSLOAD

of croats, bosnians, and russians in chicago lately.

i suppose they got through ORD well enough.

explain this . . .









oh, that's right they're WHITE . . .

[Cleita]

4. There are loads of illegals of all races.

That's why picking on the Spanish speaking ones exclusively is so blatantly racist.

Of course, some will probably say that they should be shipped back too. However, do they really mean it? My personal experience is that the white undocumented people don't get harrassed or shipped back to their countries with anywhere near the intensity or frequency that the Hispanic ones do.

[datasuspect]

5. you cannot come from europe and not clear customs

they are allowed to enter.


well maybe some of them hide on freight vessels.

the ones i meet seem well-dressed and continental enough not to tolerate that though.

[Cleita]

8. Oh, I knew many white non-Americans

who came through Canada and even Mexico. Many came in on visitor's permits like for a vacation and got jobs and just stayed. I lived in a neighborhood of illegal Aussies and Kiwis. They gave great backyard barbecues, burying a pig, luau style, so we didn't want to report them to the INS, but I digress and I am kidding about even thinking of reporting them to the INS, the seventh circle of Hell even if you are legal. Ask any immigrant.

The big difference was that as long as they were white no one questioned their residency. They got jobs without having to produce Green Cards and no one worried about it. They had a clever trick for obtaining legal SS #'s. They would open a bank account, which requires a SS #, but even if you are a foreigner, you are considered an investor so the bank with all customer service smiles applies for the SS # and card for you. Canadians have it even easier.

I'm sure the Hispanics could have tried to do something similar, but they are as you said "brown" and most likely would have a language handicap thereby rousing suspicions of *((ILLEGAL ALIEN)) trying to get my job*!

I don't renege your Croations etc., being here trying to better themselves either. Look at the shit they've been through.

[datasuspect]

11. no i'm not trying to knock anybody

just trying to highlight a hypocrisy.

i know way too many people who cringe when they even talk about spanish being spoken and who spit the work "mexican" out like phlegm.

[Cleita]

13. I understood what you where doing.

I just wanted to interject my two cents. :-)

[datasuspect]

15. i appreciate your point

and it only highlights my original point.

[knowbody0]

23. clap clap

i just conversed with my new neighbor, who told me the other neighbors told him i was housing illegals here.
Ive lived here for 15 years. nine years ago i adopted three Mexican siblings aged 4 4 and 5, who are all now in their teens. previous to today, i thought mayhaps folks around here were prejudiced. it is good to know my instincts are ok. my ears are ringing.

[Cleita]

50. That's disgusting. Three toddlers.

Even if they were illegals, that's disgusting. Blaming a small child for circumstances he would have no control over is disgusting.

[Redstone]

34. Been to Boston lately?

Any idea how many illegal Irish immigrants there are there?

(Just to back up your point.)

Redstone

[Bo]

64. They land in Ecuador and get through just like mexicans.....

thats all....about $5000 a pop

[cidliz2004]

41. Look flame me if you want, but I am not happy about ANY illegals

For the following reasons

#1 Having control of our borders - - might be a good idea
#2 How many of our tax paid benefits are illegal alien families able to collect immediately - - I don't know about you but I think that I pay enough in taxes AND I'd like to see some of those services when I need them, instead of just hearing that taxes need to be raised for our schools, roads, SS benefits to remain intact
Have you ever gone to a Public Aid Office or Social Security Office where benefits are applied for? A major portion of the people in those offices don't even speak English. It always amazed me that poor English speaking people couldn't get anything in their hard times, but foreigners could come into this country and immediately qualify for benefits.
#3 Some years ago I traveled down to Miami, We were lost and asked some people on the street for directions, nobody spoke English. Miami was taken over be Cubans. Street signs, business signs...the minority were American born U.S. citizens.


#4 (And this may be the most important) Keeping wage levels depressed. As long as corporate America can keep the borders open for illegals to cross so that they can be exploited, the vicious circle will never end. Construction is a good example No union, lots of illegals, shit wages. Union, very few illegals, great wages. Now I know that unions have much to do with this, but get "right to work" going, get rid of unions, and allow free and easy labor pools of illegals and guess what? OUR wages remain low wages and we aren't able to afford to get out of poverty.

If we are such bleeding hearts, why not support aid to their countries to help them build their own economies. I'm sure that it would be better for all if we approached it that way. Illegals could stay with their families in the land that they call home and we could have better wages across the board instead of one state being so much worse with wages and jobs than another because of close proximity to borders. And we could better equalize the wages in this country. We will never have control of our wages against corporate America if illegals will work for pennies to our dollar just to get by. Sure we blame corporate America if we can handle corporate america, then the problem of illegals would basically remedy itself because illegals wouldn't be able to get jobs so they would not be flocking over here for work.

[Cleita]

49. No flames, but in light of your unsubstantiated,

unsourced and unlinked statements, let me go through them one by one. Incidentally, I am concerned that they are very similar to those I run across regularly on websites less “bleeding heart” than this one.

#1 Having control of our borders - - might be a good idea

Yes, but..but…but, I thought Homeland Security was supposed to take care of this and the Border Patrol, but others seem to want to shoot ‘em instead.

#2 How many of our tax paid benefits are illegal alien families able to collect immediately - - I don’t presume to know so why would you? What benefits are you talking about, welfare, Medicaid, jobs, housing? What are they collecting immediately? I mean is there a social worker there waiting for the coyotes to arrive with their cargo to sign up all these new residents with benefits? Do you have access to those stats that tell you so? If you do why aren’t you backing your statements with facts, sources and links?

I don't know about you but I think that I pay enough in taxes AND I'd like to see some of those services when I need them, instead of just hearing that taxes need to be raised for our schools, roads, SS benefits to remain intact Yes, so would we all. Have you written your elected representatives about this? What do illegal aliens have to do with roads, schools and SS benefits.? Our government is supposed to be providing this with your taxes. Instead, your taxes are going overseas to kill a lot of Iraqis and make some American Corporations very rich with direct ties to our present government.

Have you ever gone to a Public Aid Office or Social Security Office where benefits are applied for? A major portion of the people in those offices don't even speak English. Where do you live in Puerto Rico? I’ve gone many times to the SS office recently because my husband just died. Everyone spoke English. Are you talking about the employees or the applicants? They also had translators for Spanish and Mandarin. This effort to communicate to reduce errors is evil, why? It always amazed me that poor English speaking people couldn't get anything in their hard times, but foreigners could come into this country and immediately qualify for benefits. There you go again with those ferriners getting immediate benefits. Who is saying this besides Rush Limbaugh? Have you witnessed this? Can you put up proof. Oh, by the way, I’m one of those Hispanics and I have never had to apply for Public Aid and I speak English. I find your statements about no one speaking English and only English speaking people deserving benefits very offensive. Maybe it's you who need to learn to speak English. I don't think you are hearing your facts right.

#3 Some years ago I traveled down to Miami, We were lost and asked some people on the street for directions, nobody spoke English. Miami was taken over be Cubans. Street signs, business signs...the minority were American born U.S. citizens. Well, I have been going to Miami since oh since WWII. It is known as the Gateway to the Americas, so it’s always had a high level of Latino culture. There is a huge continent under there. Also, since Florida was originally settled by the Spaniards, the rest of you are Johnny come latelys.


#4 (And this may be the most important) Keeping wage levels depressed. As long as corporate America can keep the borders open for illegals to cross so that they can be exploited, the vicious circle will never end. Construction is a good example No union, lots of illegals, shit wages. Union, very few illegals, great wages. Now I know that unions have much to do with this, but get "right to work" going, get rid of unions, and allow free and easy labor pools of illegals and guess what? OUR wages remain low wages and we aren't able to afford to get out of poverty. Can’t blame ourselves can we for poor wages? It’s always easier to blame some poor shlub whose poorer than you. It’s the employers that are keeping wages down because any laws that would have prevented this in the past have been removed. Unions have been busted. Companies like the division they can create by getting workers to hate each other. Racism is as good a way as any.


If we are such bleeding hearts, why not support aid to their countries to help them build their own economies. I'm sure that it would be better for all if we approached it that way. Illegals could stay with their families in the land that they call home and we could have better wages across the board instead of one state being so much worse with wages and jobs than another because of close proximity to borders. Finally, you could have a partial solution. Everyone would rather stay in their homes if they could.

And we could better equalize the wages in this country. We will never have control of our wages against corporate America if illegals will work for pennies to our dollar just to get by. Sure we blame corporate America if we can handle corporate america, then the problem of illegals would basically remedy itself because illegals wouldn't be able to get jobs so they would not be flocking over here for work. Too bad, just when you were making sense, you tune into your bigotry instead of looking at what is going on. Until we organize labor on a large scale, outside of the government, but regulated by it, we will never have decent wages in this country, even if you shoot or send back every single, illegal, alien here.

You know who we used to pick on about those guys taking our jobs, our benefits, our roads? African Americans until they learned to fight back. So brown people from south of the border are the new enemy. If you can’t see how your bigotry is being manipulated by the Mayberry Machiavellis, then I feel sorry for you.

At the bottom of all this is Bush. He has exacerbated all those problems, the lost jobs, the poor wages, the taxes that he steals for himself and his corporate fat cats. Actually, he wants those low paid workers to drive wages down even further. He has hocked this country to China with your taxes to fund his conquest of the world. That’s why you don’t have any proper services anymore. Believe me, he’s not giving them to any illegal aliens unless it’s his rich Saudi buddies. As for those Cubans in Miami, they voted for him. Also, voting would make them Americans and not Cubans, no?

Oh, by the way, I consider myself a "kindhearted liberal". I refuse to let the side define me.

[pauliedangerously]

52. WOW...that's a lot of stuff

I'd like to throw in my white-ass two cents: I was in Miami a few months ago and I didn't have any problem at all. I can say hola, gracias, and como estas...rock on...

I don't know about everyone else, but I've never felt threatened by immigrants. If you're worried about someone taking your job, maybe you should be trying harder. Whatever.

Hey Cleita, bienvenidos!

[Cleita]

53. Gracias.

[FlaGranny]

80. If you lived in Miami, you'd

by extremely, extremely fortunate to get a job if you couldn't speak Spanish. Employment for English-only speakers in Miami is not easy to come by.

[pauliedangerously]

83. If that is the case...

common sense would lead one who wishes to remain there to learn how to speak Spanish.

[cidliz2004]

86. That really shows ignorance, in the U.S., now we are supposed to learn

the various languages of immigrants where ever they settle and start to dominate the area? Really stupid.

[pauliedangerously]

87. You're right

Your unwillingness to learn an additional language in order to thrive in the area you live in is a perfect example of ignorance.

[cidliz2004]

92. It is amazing how twisted logic becomes.

I should have a choice whether or not I want to learn a 2nd language. English is what is spoken in the United States. I know Polish people who come here and guess what?????? They learn English! What a foreign concept, migrating to another country to make your life better LEGALLY and in order to succeed you learn their language. What a concept! I live by many Poles, maybe I should learn Polish - huh?, Oh wait a minute, there are many Hispanics in my area to, maybe I should learn Spanish, Oh, what about the people from India, maybe I should learn their language instead. Then there are those Vietnamese that I work with, I guess I should learn Vietnamese.

Oh, wait a minute, since THEY all are coming here and desiring to take advantage of what this country has to offer them, maybe THEY should learn English!! New concept to people like you huh?

In case you haven't noticed, there are many people from all over the world moving here LEGALLY, and all of the languages that they speak would be quite burdensome for us to have to learn. I live in an area where there are many different diverse groups of immigrants, maybe you don't, maybe you don't quite get the complexity of the issue.

Maybe, according to your logic, our street signs should have English and all of the other languages on them to. We wouldn't want to DISCRIMINATE against one group by printing signs (or instructions) in only one foreign language now would we? Imagine the law suits on that one!

Obviously the largest segment of immigrants are Hispanic and many things are already translated for them, directions for use of products, translators are employed by many agencies for translation, text books are written ... It amazes me that with all of the other foreigners that come into this country speaking other languages (and not already knowing English), they manage to LEARN English, get jobs and thrive in our society - in general. So, I guess it is possible for foreigners to come into this country and to ADAPT.

Of course, not all Hispanics remain illiterate in English, not even a great number of them. So don't get the wrong impression that I think that, because I don't, I am merely responding to the "remark" that I should learn Spanish, because if there is a town in the United States that is populated with people who just speak Spanish, and I speak just English I won't be able to find a job there.

Just for the record, if I migrated to another country that didn't speak English, I would feel OBLIGATED to speak their language. Call me weird, but I feel that I should adapt to the laws and language of the land and that I shouldn't expect a country to bow down to my particular needs. After all, we didn't force them to come here in the first place.

[pauliedangerously]

105. Uh...we're talking about a Spanish speaking community...HELLO

There are Hebrew speaking communities, Chinese speaking communities, French speaking communities, etc, etc, in this country. Yeah, SURE, if you moved to some country where they don't speak English, you wouldn't have a choice...unless you don't care to communicate with anyone.

We're talking about a community in Florida where there are lots of people who speak Spanish. It doesn't really matter what you think or feel; the social condition exists and it isn't going to change.

"maybe THEY should learn English"

Irrelevant...mere opinion. Why should they? It seems that the pressure is on the non-Spanish speakers to learn how to speak Spanish.

But hey, keep complaining about it. Why not go to Little Havana and tell everyone that they should learn how to speak English? Be sure to bring your camcorder.

Oh, I can't resist another delicious quote from your silly diatribe:

"English is what is spoken in the United States."

Apparently not. ROTFLMFAO!!!

Hasta la vista!!

[Karenina]

108. What I find equally fascinating and appalling

is the incredible HOSTILITY some Amis project when faced with the challenge of a new (to them) language. It's downright GOOFY! :crazy:
What's the big deal? Englisch IS lingua franca worldwide and in no danger WHATSOEVER. It IS my opinion that the RAGE expressed is closely tied to racism. ;-)

There are towns in the U.S. where German is spoken, a holdover from the immigration wave of late 19th century and indecipherable for a modern speaker. Today one CAN easily live in a metropolitan area in Germany with Englisch only. (However, I cannot imagine a monolingual condition to be much fun... a person would miss all the GOOD STUFF!!!)

Hi Paulie!!! :hi:

[Cleita]

89. Excuse me, but Spanish was the first ever European language

to be spoken in Florida. It was the subsequent English speaking colonists that didn't learn Spanish. I think it's your turn now.

[cidliz2004]

93. Why don't you go back and live 100 - 200 years ago?

Since you seem fixated on what happened back then and not what has EVOLVED since then.

I am looking at TODAY and TOMORROW, that is why we don't agree, you are living in the past.

[Cleita]

95. If you are looking to tomorrow, you'd better start boning up

on your Mandarin. They own us you know thanks to GWB. You won't be getting any good jobs if you don't learn it.

[Karenina]

96. SLAM DUNK, CLEITA!!!

:toast: :loveya:

[Cleita]

97. Hey there!

:hi:

[pauliedangerously]

107. Hey Karenina!!!

Long time no see...this thread really makes me proud to be an americano. :rofl:

[cidliz2004]

100. We were talking about the borders from Mexico - -

And you were referring to situations that happened a century or so ago in regards to the Mexican border.

Slam dunk????? Since when is scoring in baseball have anything to do with winning in a basketball game???????


M E X I C A N B O R D E R S I M M I G R A N T S

Nothing to do with the orient directly and not answering what charges that I made either, possibly because there is no defense.

Refer to post 79 to help you stay in the here and now AND to help you stay on the subject.

[Cleita]

101. You say you are objecting to bilingualism, when what you are really

objecting to is that no one will speak English to you. That tells me that those people aren't bilingual either so they can't answer you. What did you do walk up to a bunch of tourists and ask them a question? Miami Airport services Europe too you know so anyone in the street could be from anywhere. If you don't like brown people, why did you talk to them?

Your objections stink frankly and speaking of slam dunks and staying on the subject, you need to air your objection on that to the person who posted it.

[cidliz2004]

103. You really are not even talking with any logic.

How do you know that the people were brown? Are all people that speak Spanish brown? Talk about bigotry! How do you know if I was at Miami Airport or not? I didn't mention the Airport in my post. Another assumption. You are full of assumptions, name calling and now I'll add hypocrisy - the comment about

"If you don't like brown people, why did you talk to them?"

I didn't say that they were "brown", furthermore, since when do ALL Spanish speaking people HAVE to be brown? You assume - people speaking Spanish....must be brown! - How would you have reacted if I had said something that ignorant? As a matter of fact, they were fair complected and blue eyed...and furthermore they didn't wear sombreros and they weren't eating tacos (just in cast you were going to throw that in on top of the "brown skin" remark...Jeesh give it a rest already, you are digging yourself deeper and deeper.

You acknowledged the poster who said "slam dunk Cleita" - that is why I threw in the slam dunk remark along with other remarks pertaining to your mentioning "Mandarin" remark. I considered both remarks off subject.

You say that my remarks "stink", well, I think that disobeying the law "stinks", and as I have said before, if you don't like the laws then YOU and others that agree with your point of view change the laws. Otherwise, RESPECTING the law doesn't "stink".

[Karenina]

110. Nothing to do with the Orient...

WHOOOOOOOSHHHH! :rofl:

[Pithlet]

120. "evolved"? LOL

Sorry, that just struck me as funny. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.

[Karenina]

109. Americans have a reputation worldwide

for ignorance. Those who take it upon themselves to educate themselves do your battered image a much needed service. Heaven forbid you should learn to communicate with "those people" you feel have "invaded!" I really am curious, as it doesn't take much effort to learn a little bit and have people smile and offer encouragement. It DOES take an open mind, willingness and a core belief that "those people" are your equals.
Hmmmm...

[FlaGranny]

112. You actually believe that

if you were born and raised in Miami you should learn to speak Spanish or move out? Personally, I would NEVER move to a foreign country without learning the language FIRST. I wonder how the Italians would feel if a bunch of us moved to Italy and expected the Italians in the area to learn English or move out of their homes.

[Karenina]

113. Porsche, Volkswagen, Kindergarten

Schnitzel und Blitzkrieg... Those were the 5 words I knew arriving in Germany. ;-) I cannot tell you how much FUN I've had getting up to speed! Learned some Japanese in the W-A-A-A-Y BACK when I lived in Santa Monica ("they" were EVERYWHERE and I LOVE THE FOOD...) my now grown sons both SPEAK, READ AND WRITE. I should VERY MUCH like to know what you believe the "down side" is to learning another language. :shrug: I've ALWAYS had SO MUCH FUN with it.

[Bo]

65. Illegals keep wages low it is that simple

especially in construction. I was a crew chief I know. Carpenter wages haven't gone up at all since the 80s.

[Cleita]

68. So what are you doing about it? There is a solution posted here

on DU presented by the Teamsters. If there wasn't a need for these workers, they wouldn't be here. Blame the employers for breaking laws, breaking unions and breaking spirits not the guy who is poorer and less fortunate than you.

I used to live up in the Inland Northwest at a time when everyone was white and at least a second generation born American except for the tourists and retirees. Legal white American citizens did the jobs brown people do now, including construction. Believe me wages were the lowest in the country and there wasn't an illegal in sight, except for the occasional Canadian. The wages would have been even lower except for federal minimum wage.

The clever employers pitched one ethnic group against another, in the mines, in the mills and in the logging operations. They let the underlying ethnic hostilities brew and encouraged them. Germans were pitched against the Norwegians.The people who had been in the valley before the Civil War, and therefore had some mystical ownership to everything according to them, against the outsiders whose parents settled there sixty years before.

Of course those other people were taking their jobs, lowering wages, buying up their land and taking over or so they let them think. It works for them and only organized labor can break this one-sided contract. One guy by himself has no bargaining power and will take whatever wage is offered him no matter how legal he is. They want you disliking each other and mistrusting each other because keeping you divided keeps you from organizing. You'd better start reaching out to your fellow construction worker to build that bridge to a better life for both of you.

This keeping the wages low by preventing workers from organizing from mistrust is a really old game. Illegals are the most recent and convenient scapegoat. It used to be African Americans before they started asserting themselves and gaining their rights. I guess they kept wages low too.

[pauliedangerously]

84. Illegals? What about the scabs?

There are plenty of white yahoos doing carpentry, if you want to call it carpentry, for next to nothing. It isn't even a skill anymore. All "carpenters" do today is throw together pre-made crap...pre-hung doors, pre-fabbed trusses, pre-built cabinets...it's an easier job than it used to be. It's so easy, a lot of people do it themselves now; hence the existence of places like Home Depot.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

74. If you say you aren't bigoted then you don't believe you are.

Your post, in your own words, speaks for itself. Just keep blaming everyone else for your problems. The rich people love it. As long as they can keep you hating the OTHERS, then no one can organize together as a coalition to build a better life for everyone. Read my post #68 about how the employers keep people divided to keep wages low.

[cidliz2004]

88. Your the one doing the name calling thus the "classifying" of people

which, if I am not mistaking is part of being a bigot. I didn't name call, you did. I stated the "situations" that I believe to exist and YOU resorted to name calling. I don't care what you think right now because you left the discussion on discussing situations and started name calling, making it personal.

I want the Hispanics, Canadians, Europeans, People from India, Pakistanians,.... to succeed in their own countries, and I believe that they would like to stay there to.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. If you condone breaking laws, then there is nothing at all left to say. I don't care what sob story you come up with, I don't care how much you name call. If you don't like the laws and you believe that we shouldn't have borders, THEN CHANGE THE LAWS. Until then, stop blaming the corporations for individuals crossing the borders and breaking the laws. They really are two seperate issues.

[Cleita]

78. This was just posted by DUer, maestro.

You should read it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3428779

[Cleita]

81. Here's another one you should read by

DeepModem Mom

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1368435

[Itsthetruth]

71. Well Said!

Terrific response. Thanks. And hope the person you responded to will visit this DU link for more hard information and facts on the so-called Minuteman Project.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3428470

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EVDebs]

82. Nobody's going to be deported. The illegals pay into SS...they won't get

Read 'Immigrant wages helping fund Social Security benefits' by Eduardo Porter, NYTimes in my local paper April 5, 2005

Illegal workers provide as much as $7 billion a year in unclaimed payroll taxes. They aren't entitled to collect on illegal SS numbers for SS, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. etc.

Wait long enough and you'll see the Mexican government crying they these illegal immigrants need reparations. The US businesses that did the illegal hiring in the first place (knowingly) should be the ones who do the payouts from their 'globalized' profiteering. But as with all things, patience patience patience.

[Cleita]

3. Me too.

:applause: :applause:

[jonnyblitz]

18. I second that redqueen!

:applause: :applause:

[jdj]

56. what IS the issue here?

is it a wedge issue of some sort?

because they sure do a hell of a lot of the needed labor in this country.

is this just a way to keep the natives restless, racist and self-righteous so they are too scared to have any authentic original thoughts?

[catzies]

72. I've been wondering that too. Why this, and why now?

Anyone?

[EVDebs]

6. Beyond the Mexican illegal immigration you have H1Bs from all over world

If the business community who are mostly Republicans want cheap labor from anywhere in the world, they WILL get it. Just look at the H1B over-runs this year, something like 10,000 more than Congress allowed for. It's a joke.

They're coming for work and hastening the "Race to the Bottom" that globalization -- with the NAFTAs, WTOs, CAFTAs, free-trade B.S.-- brings to all countries that participate. Multinational corporations win and countries lose.

I wish there were jobs being created in Mexico and elsewhere that provide decent pay so that those people can live a good life in their countries. But the way it is being played, US jobs are being exported or foreigners are being allowed into the US on visas to take jobs that companies say that no US citizen was available for (the IT industry's CWA union can inform you about H1bs).

Bush supports outsourcing and offshoring US jobs and capital. Most Democrats have more sense than that.

[datasuspect]

7. it has been america's foreign policy

since president monroe to create a third world in non-white parts of this hemisphere.

[porphyrian]

9. I just want to know who's dehydrating the Mexicans.

That's not a very nice thing to do.

[solinvictus]

10. The desert they cross..

That's what is doing it.

[Cleita]

12. Crossing the Sonora Desert can be hazardous to your life. n/t

[datasuspect]

14. the desert where they die when they get dropped

off by coyotes who get spooked.

good series in the NYTimes about this a few years back.

mothers and babies, fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers all kinds of bones (oops, people) who get found out in the middle of nowhere.

[porphyrian]

17. Are things in Mexico really so much worse that they risk it...?

...or are they buying into the American myth that the fascists have destroyed?

[datasuspect]

19. have you ever lived without a future?

and zero prospects?

what would you do?

[porphyrian]

20. So, you're saying yes?

It's unfortunate that they have to learn the hard way that the American Dream is dead. Unless their belief can resurrect it, I suppose.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

24. I once worked in a restaurant where I befriended a sixteen-year-old

dishwasher. Since I spoke Spanish I had little conversations with him over the months when giving him his check. He actually was literate because he could endorse his own check. Many of the workers were illiterate, meaning they didn't even have a chance to go to school but had to go to work as young a six years old in the fields to help the family survive. I had to witness their "X"s.

This kid told me he had to quit school in the sixth grade because his father fell ill. He went to work in a tile factory for 75 cents a day. At that time minimum wage was $3.75 an hour, so you can imagine the difference. Even though it was hard to get by up here, he was able to send home more to his mother than he would have earned in the tile factory. Yet, he did it with great sacrifice and picked up all the extra hours he could. This was a sixteen year old kid.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

26. That sounds threatening and very hostile to me.n/t

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

22. You've got that right.

We're getting closer to being Mexico everyday because of our fascist government. Also, the problems of Latin America as a whole is because there is a traditional class system based on feudalism. If these racial divides are allowed to solidify in our country, you will see it and don't think you will be exempt because you belong to the right class. Americans, who are descended mostly from immigrants who came from an underclass aren't gonna put up with that shit in the long run once they wake up to what is happening.

[rman]

77. both, i'd say

it might not be as good in the US as they think it is, but it's still a whole lot better then in mexico. they are a lot further down the road of despotism.

[tyedyeto]

104. Have you ever been to a village in Mexico....nowhere near the 'border'

Or tourist places? It is a very poor country. Would you do whatever it takes to help get your family some $$ to get out of the poverty situation they are in?

But the big biz corp's that hire the illegals don't care........they are slave labor to them.

[KamaAina]

16. Why, the activist judges, of course

oh right, Terri Schiavo wasn't Mexican :evilgrin:

Maybe it was the Clenis...

[Blue Belle]

28. Did someone say Dehydrated??

Where is our Culture of Life leaders now?? Where are the feeding tubes? Where are the wailing Evangelicals?? Oh wait... did you say they were Mexicans? Uhm.. Nevermind.

They talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

[Stephanie]

55. They reconstitute them in the Rio Grande

[tjwash]

29. The enemy here is not the militia groups patrolling the borders.

This country was built around cheap labor. Our economy will collapse without illegal labor. If you want to highlight a hypocrisy, that's not the one we should start with.

The colonists, came here from Europe with their slaves. The North had brutal discipline, and cheap labor through wage slavery from company stores, debtors workhouses, and child labor. The South had outright slavery working in the fields and cotton gins. And yes, the same Mexicans that are coming here to pick our fruit, and mow our yards here illegally are descendants of the same Spaniards that conquered, and slaughtered the indigenous people in Mexico. and Central America, and forced them into slavery working in the gold mines, and producing cocoa for shipment back to Spain.

The enemy here are the multinational corps, that are doing the same thing they have always done in the past; exploit the cheapest labor base that they can find. While everyone is distracted and arguing over a couple hundred yahoos who are "patrolling our borders", how many jobs today have been outsourced to cheap labor pools on distant shores?

We are arguing about the wrong stuff people...

[cleofus1]

30. you are wrong

most of the mexicans coming here illegally are decendants of the indians that the conquistedores defeated...brown skin and black hair and brown eyes...does not equate to european ancestors...

get a clue

[Redstone]

35. Well, not necessarily...

It would be a good bet that any European ancestors of today's Mexicans would have been Spaniards--not exactly a group of blond-haired, blue-eyed people. The the fact that they're dark doesn't mean they're Indios, or even Mestizos.

You can be a 100% blue-blood Castilian Mexican, and you'll still have black hair and brown eyes.

Not being argumentative, just mentioning.

Redstone

[cleofus1]

59. no way dude

i've known lots of spanish people from mexico and new mexico and none of them are dark skinned and black haired...

and becouse of racism and class mores...there was not a lot of mixing of blood...it is very easy to see that many of the indians in mexico and latin america are for the most part of indian descent.

so many spanish people think that indians are dirty and stupid...100% castilians have gold to blond hair and green to hazel eyes...

i personally have rarely seen spanish and indians mixing it up...unless of course you're talking about a bar room brawl...

i may live in alaska now but i spent about 20 years or so crawling around on bar room floors in border towns and L.A....and of course my ancestry is mexican and native american...so i speak from first hand experiance...both family and friends and just being out there...

[Igel]

66. You can get "pure blood" indios, but they're less common

than many want to believe. My guess is if you only speak Mixtec or another indigenous language it's improbable to have a hefty European admixture to your genes, but indigenous speakers are a minority.

Just as most African-Americans have a European somewhere in their ancestry, so most Spanish-speaking Mexicans have some European (mostly Spanish, but there's a bit of Irish and French in there) genes.

I'm forever amazed how my fellow Americans worship the one-drop rule for African-Americans, and want to extend it to every other non-melanin-challenged individual.

[cleofus1]

91. huh

please elaborate...

[Selatius]

40. But this is capitalism though; it's all about profit and exploitation

Capitalism as a system simply cannot exist without inequality. That's the way it works. That's the way it always has worked. Somebody wins, and somebody loses and gets screwed. Somebody must lose according to the rules of the game so that a winner can emerge.

The best capitalists are the best able to trick as many people as possible into devoting their time and labor and lives to making as much money for the capitalist so that the capitalist can walk away with the largest share of the profits, while the workers get the left overs.

Why do you think we celebrate Wal-Mart as "the most admired company" yet speak nothing of the 45,000,000 in this country who are so poverty-stricken that they cannot even afford health care?

Oh, coincidently, it was Wal-Mart and the Justice Dept. that just settled an illegal immigration case out of court. No trial, no accountability. Just money passing between parties and secrets.

[nolabels]

54. I do not celebrate Wal-Mart

It is also utter bullshit to think that it is even capitalism. More like gun protected sheltered markets. Cronyism is what you got there, strictly cronyism. Our modern societies operate on same rules and principles of any other primitive feudal society.

The overlords of a feudal system will use any measure it thinks it can get away to get to their perceived goal. Bushco has exhibited most every tendency in that no holes barred approach. It is the time of the rubber meeting the road. All these corporate concerns the US government is being bribed to protect is starting not to work for both parties in the equation. :rant:


Wal-mart sucks so bad they cannot even handle people telling other people that Wal-mart sucks.

Read for yourself

:rofl: 1. The Parties

The Complainant is Wal-Mart Stores, Inc., with place of business in Bentonville, Arkansas, USA.

The Respondents are Walsucks and Walmarket Puerto Rico, with addresses in Burnt Head, Cupids, Newfoundland, Canada.
(snip)
http://arbiter.wipo.int/domains/decisions/html/2000/d2000-0477.html

[Selatius]

58. I disagree; it still leads back to capitalism.

The only reason cronyism exists is to gain an economic/strategic advantage over all other challengers. This is what you get with capitalism, a system that is built on competition and winning. Sooner or later, somebody is going to cut corners in the race, and everyone else will start to feel the pressure to cut corners as well in order to stay afloat, and the best way to keep from being penalized for cutting corners is to make strategic alliances.

When I say Wal-Mart is the "most admired company," it is not because I admire Wal-Mart because I don't. The term itself comes from Fortune Magazine which listed Wal-Mart as such. The fact is Wal-Mart is the best at winning the game. Why else are they the world's largest retailer on the face of earth? They didn't get there by playing nice or treating its workers like human beings. They got there through being as cutthroat as possible and being as merciless as possible.

If you want to be assured of victory at the end of the day, you must be willing to do everything and anything possible in order to secure victory. That includes everything up to and including pushing aside moral and ethical issues in favor of making greater profits and beating the competition. What is victory? Making money. You can't quantify happiness or the satisfaction from helping a fellow human being, but you can certainly quantify money. What can you do with happiness and satisfaction? You can't spend it on a yacht and a mansion, but you can certainly do so with money. If you want to do it the "right way," do it like Wal-Mart, not Enron. You end up with more money at the end of the day, and you don't have to worry about facing prison.

This sounds harsh, and it is harsh, but this is capitalism. Instead of kings and princes who serve as your master, it is industrialists and corporatists instead. Welcome to the New World! Same as the old one!

I reject this. Instead of a world built on merciless competition, I favor one built on mutual cooperation. It's more sustainable not only for human society but for the planet as well.

[nolabels]

63. It's called a captive market

The answer the the question of "Why else are they the world's largest retailer on the face of earth?" is found in that they do have a captive market. You should check out some of the laws erected to hamstring Labor and Union organization just for starters.

The bigger and better of concentrated mass production facilitated their ability make that happen. In general low fuel and transportation costs turned us and our individualism into the slaves and drones of the older yore. It's now quicker and cheaper to just get a new one rather than try extend the life of anything that is manufactured. We are at the Zenith of the throw away culture at this point.

Our collective thinking with our heads in the throw away department has been mutated into throw away societies, governments and even countries. If it don't fit the needs move your factory somewhere else or get the US government to obliterate it. The definitions or words may or may not have be coined yet, but we always know them by their fruits.

When bushco invaded Iraq it had nothing to do with finding oil or anything else any cheaper. The lies and scare tactics that they used were also very weak, but for corporations, the chimp was their man. This whole bushco Juggernaut was about trying to reestablish to US-Corporate top down command as the dictator of how things were going to be. Bushco has failed that test miserably as well.

Our country and or system of corporation maybe slowly failing as of late but in the long run it will all work out, at least history would suggest that. Merciless competition was the world we born into, but I do not like it or advocate it either. My only point was that we don't even have that in the artificial structure we see in front of us.

[Richard Steele]

57. Thank You, tjwash!

It seems that 'Illegal Immigration' is serving as a VERY EFFECTIVE "Wedge Issue" here...since it has us ARGUEING over all the wrong things!

The large Corporations have paid for the thousands of LAWS and Regulations which are DESIGNED to perpetuate and EXPAND the current cycle of:

Crushing Poverty/limited opportunity=
illegal immigration=
Wage Slavery/ZERO legal recourse=
More Corporate Profit$$$=
More CORPORATE control of Economics/Politics=
Crushing Poverty/limited opportunity.....

The MEXICANS are not causing problems, they are SOLVING them.
They are solving their own POVERTY problems,
solving corporate GREED problems,
solving OUR CITIZENS':
"I want produce/housing/service workers for less than they REALLY cost" PROBLEM...

It's the Corporations who are perpetuating the injustices in this situation, with the help of the average citizen's apathy and ignorance of the issues. Corporations will happily keep pushing until the average AMERICAN is living in a cinderblock hut and working at age 6 just to stay alive day-to-day.

And if we citizens don't solve the CORPORATE GOVERNMENT problem, it won't be long before some nice CANADIAN discussion forum is recreating this arguement.

[Redstone]

31. Datasuspect, you and I have argued in the past

over some damn thing or other that I've forgotten.

But I'm with you on this one. There was even one guy who was in high dudgeon about having to press a button on his phone an extra time (to choose Spanish or English) which seems like an awful hardship, no?

Fair number of Mexicans around here, some probably illegal, everyone who I've met a hard-working, pleasant individual. No problem for em to have more of them around.

Of course, I'm not 100% white myself, and my wife is pretty dark, so I may be prejudiced.

Redstone

[datasuspect]

32. i hear ya

and if it is possible to sense anything about someone from an internet post, i can discern a real decent spirit in you.

i was really hard on you the last time and i apologize for that. sincerely.

take care


joe

[Redstone]

39. De nada.

Oops. Will I get in trouble for using Spanish here? They'll want to throw me back across the border, even though I've never been in Mexico.

Redstone

[Zorra]

33. Hey, let's just let anyone come into our country and live here whenever

they want, no questions asked, until our country is so fucking overcrowded we make Europe look like a wilderness area, we run out of natural resources, and not a single one of us has a decent paying job because there are 1000 starving unemployed workers waiting to pounce on your job, and housing is 100 times more unaffordable than it is right now.

The biggest mistake American Indians ever made was letting all those nice European folks take their land and way of life away from them.

Stop all immigration from everywhere, not just Mexico. We don't need any more people. We are already way overpopulated.

America is full

[Redstone]

37. Been to South Dakota lately?

Didn't look too damn full out there to me. Neither did Kansas, western Pennsylvania, Utah, Arizona, Montana, Ohlahoma, or most of Texas.

Just to mention a few.

Redstone.

[Zorra]

42. I have traveled all throughout the US frequently in my lifetime.

The states that you mentioned may not have looked full to you. But appearances can be deceiving. Did you also notice that there was very little water in most of those places that you mentioned?

The ability of land and the environment to sustain population is not necessarily dictated by space, but by the finite resources necessary to sustain population.

If you like crowded places, I would suggest Europe. My European friends often comment and marvel upon how lucky we are in the US to have so much open space.

I agree with them. We are lucky to have the open space. And I think we should make arrangements to keep that nice open space before it is all gone, like it is in Europe.

"Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you got 'til it's gone" - Joni Mitchell

Global Water Shortage Looms In New Century

When most U.S. citizens think about water shortages — if they think about them at all — they think about a local problem, possibly in their town or city, maybe their state or region. We don't usually regard such problems as particularly worrisome, sharing confidence that the situation will be readily handled by investment in infrastructure, conservation, or other management strategies. Whatever water feuds arise, e.g., between Arizona and California, we expect to be resolved through negotiations or in the courtroom.

But shift from a local to a global water perspective, and the terms dramatically change. The World Bank reports that 80 countries now have water shortages that threaten health and economies while 40 percent of the world — more than 2 billion people — have no access to clean water or sanitation. In this context, we cannot expect water conflicts to always be amenably resolved.
snip---
A prime cause of the global water concern is the ever-increasing world population. As populations grow, industrial, agricultural and individual water demands escalate. According to the World Bank, world-wide demand for water is doubling every 21 years, more in some regions. Water supply cannot remotely keep pace with demand, as populations soar and cities explode.

Population growth alone does not account for increased water demand. Since 1900, there has been a six-fold increase in water use for only a two-fold increase in population size. This reflects greater water usage associated with rising standards of living (e.g., diets containing less grain and more meat). It also reflects potentially unsustainable levels of irrigated agriculture. (See sidebar.) World population has recently reached six billion and United Nation's projections indicate nine billion by 2050. What water supplies will be available for this expanding population?

http://ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/dec99/Feature2.htm

We have to think ahead.

America is full.

[Redstone]

43. I should know better than to try to talk to

someone who has a final line in every message like the one you have in yours.

I've learned my lesson.

Redstone

[Zorra]

44. LOL. Oh, please....that is so lame.

Why don't you try logically addressing the points that I presented, and tell me why I am mistaken if you believe that I am?

What you are doing is using a propaganda device similar to one known as indirect name calling. Rather than address the debate, you attack me personally by saying "someone that has a final line in every message", which does not invalidate what I said in any way, and which is absolutely not true.

[Cleita]

85. Don't forget Wyoming and Nevada and lot's of New Mexico and

Nebraska.

[Telly Savalas]

90. That's right.

If you don't have the good fortune to have been born in the U.S., then fuck you, you don't deserve to live there.

[Cleita]

115. Hwy 50 in Nevada the loneliest highway in the world.

http://www.pashnit.com/roads/Nevada/Hwy50.htm

Yep, we're overcrowded.

[mondo joe]

36. Where are all those Terri Schiavo protestors and why aren't they

demanding we put these folks up in a hospital and feed them for the rest of their lives?

[Redstone]

38. Because, they, ah, but, you see, ummm, well...

Dang, I wish I know one of them so I could ask that question. Would be hilarious to see the squirming.

Redstone

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tansy_Gold]

46. There is no vaccine for tuberculosis

Smallpox has been virtually eliminated, so no one gets vaccinated against that any more

The rare outbreaks of measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), and other formerly epidemic "childhood" diseases suggest there is little risk from non-vaccinated immigrants, legal or otherwise, in schools or hospitals.

Uninsured patients tend to over-use emergency medical services rather than less-expensive clinics. The risk from an uninsured carrier of a deadly contagious disease is much higher --again, regardless whether that person is legally or illegally in this country -- if they do NOT seek medical treatment, which many of them don't do until it's too late. (One of the reasons given for the closure of community-based, full-service hospitals in the LA area is that private,limited access, physician-owned hospitals were siphoning off all the insured, able-to-pay patients, and leaving ALL the uninsured and poor to the community hospitals; the problem was caused by unequal distribution of resources and a huge population without health care insurance, NOT by a sudden influx of illegal immigrants.)

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

60. When did you get your TB vaccination?

Most of us in the US don't get them, either.

Where are your figures for illegal immigrants & crime? Your racism is showing...

[Strelnikov_]

47. Your Post Underscores Why American Citizens And Legal Immigrants

. . who come to this country to build a better life are screwed. The minute there is any discussion of tightening up immigration, a civil war revolving around accusations of racism breaks out, nothing gets done, and the Iron Heel (GOP Capitalists) laugh all the way to the bank. I am sure they are smiling now.

All the current immigration policy of this country does is create a black market for labor, exploiting those who are here illegally, and driving down the wages and working conditions so for legal residents the job is a step backward.

As an example, meatpacking jobs (in the midwest) paid a middle class wage ($20/hr+ in 2000 $) in the 70's. These jobs provided good health care and retirement benefits because they were unionized. As was related by a worker from this era, the social contract was that it was hard, dangerous work that left most workers crippled when they retired, and the compensation reflected this.

Over the 70's and 80's non-union plants were opened, and the unionized plants closed or the unions busted. As compensation was much lower at the non-union plants, U.S. citizens abandoned the industry, and the labor void was filled with immigrant's. Since the supply of this labor is virtually unlimited, compensation and workplace safety has plummeted.

The 70's era worker, in the interview I heard, indicated that there would be no problem attracting U.S. citizens to the industry if compensation and workplace conditions were similar to the 70's.

So, it appears to me that (uncontrolled) immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship.

What we need a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of immigrants and end the flooding of the labor market due to uncontrolled immigration.

Some thoughts on immigration policy from John Sayles which think sums up my feelings on this issue.

John Sayles
From:A People's Democratic Platform
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&c=5&s=for...

The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world.

[dpibel]

99. We seem to have a causation problem here

How is it that your story of meat packing shows anything but the effects of the popular American sport of union-busting. Illegal immigrants didn't depress the wages in that industry, union-busting did.

You do, however, nicely demonstrate that this is one area where it is, indeed, true that illegals (although packing plant employees are not exclusively illegal immigrants) do jobs that are too dirty, dangerous, or hard for natives to do for the wages offered.

[leesa]

51. Absolutely! Never mind about the illegal wars we start, or the massive

debt we are being crushed under, or the fact that we have no jobs...

[GetTheRightVote]

61. I agree with your statement, we do not illegal or legal right now

We need to give what jobs are out there to those who really call this home because they have no other place to go. The importing of workers is only a tool used by corporations to control wages which they will always push down until the labor/workers in this country start pushing back and demand better, livable wages. This will never happen with cheap labor from other countries.

:mad:

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Igel]

67. For some I suspect there's racism lurking in their objection

to illegal immigration from Central America. But not mostly. Look for commonalities between xenophobia before claiming that the objection to immigration fits into some preconceived idea about racism.

My list of why I think people focus on Latin American immigration:
Different ethnicity (not specifically race--cf. treatment of Irish, Poles)
The sheer volume of immigration--the last big wave of xenophobia coincided with the last big wave of immigrants.
An objection to multiculturalism and a goal of non-assimilation by "immigration advocates"--this is the reason explicitly cited both in the early 1900s and today.
"Class differences"--last time, as now, immigrants were poor. Non-poor people don't like large aggregations of poor people.

I personally think that the anti-immigrant drive is much, much less than it was in the early 1900s.

[Cleita]

69. Yep, all those Irish immigrants escaping starvation.

Our countrymen didn't treat them too well here either. The Irish got into politics though, something they couldn't do as a slave colony of Great Britain. I hope the injustices heaped on this new wave of immigrants will inspire their children into politics as well. Maybe we can get this country changed for the better yet by people who have known poverty and oppression first hand, again. Unfortunately, the Irish and others got rich and fat and I'm afraid out-of-touch with their roots, like the Kennedys, although I still admire them a lot.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

73. It's ALL about race, whether people will admit it or not.

When I got married, we got our license from downtown Chicago. I was born right there in Chicago. My husband-to-be is from Britain. When asked the standard questions, they pulled ME aside and asked ME the extra "is your family here legally" "are you bringing any relatives into the US" "have you brought any relatives into the US" "when did your family arrive here" etc. etc. etc. They didn't ask my husband one extra question. "Where were you born?" "Birmingham England" and they accepted that without question.

[Cleita]

75. The INS used to give my mother such a hard time too.

They were big fat-bellied cigar smoking men back then. Since my mother was very pretty, they were very rude to her, calling her Chiquita Banana, and made off-color remarks about why my father married her and they had no compunction saying these things in front of me, a child at the time.

[Karenina]

98. UN.FICKEN.GLAUBLICH!

Reminds me of when Shoshanna Johnson and her colleages were rescued how the Lil' WBIC didn't wanna believe SHE was an Ami. You'd think the response to "Name, rank and serial number" would suffice... :shrug:

[rman]

76. Not to mention they were virtually invited by promises

of free drivers licences.

[Skidmore]

79. First of all, I am not

anti-immigrant. I've been married to two at different times in my life and have children by one of the two. Both came here through legal avenues.

1. Come legally, and I have no problem with your presence in this country. Otherwise, I have no problem with your arrest and deportation. Laws need to mean something.

2. Punish the employers of these individuals, either by imprisonment or huge tax penalties.

3. As for all the jobs that Americans supposedly won't do, I don't buy that crap either. American employers need to pay the market rate for labor. See #2.

4. This is a national secrity problem in more than one way.

[cidliz2004]

94. Great Response, Great logic, Laws need to be upheld

If you don't like a law, then change it. Why is that such a controversial position?

[lala_rawraw]

102. Slavery, Cheap labor is the real issue...

And until that commodity, the human commodity is not sold nor bought (Fox/Bush) they will continue to be treated inhumanely. That is the real travesty of illegal immigration, but people confuse opposition to illegal immigration with racism. Hardly the case when one considers the humane treatment of workers, people in general, to be the most important.

So the slave market must be closed, borders and the Fox/Bush trafficking. Mexico has a vibrant, successful culture that has been turned into a slave state. What needs to happen is that Bush be run out of office along with his mob and Fox be pulled into the states on charges of human rights violations. Close the slave trade down, that is what I believe.

[Karenina]

114. You are absolutely correct.

Borders and language are no more than a smoke screen obfuscating the REAL ISSUE.

[lala_rawraw]

117. Right

And given that I am covering the Real ID Act, I can tell you that it does not address anything remotely associated with national security or border security, although Lou Dobbs would have you believe it does. In fact, HR 418, now attached to the supplimental is the Real ID Act, so here is what people need to know to understand this attack on civil rights, not on the cheap labor trade:

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/index.php?p=56

[Karenina]

118. AAAAARRGGHHH!!!!

:wow: :argh: :banghead: :crazy: :SIGH:

[lala_rawraw]

119. PAPER CHASE

Get the news out to the people. I don't know what else to do or say to urge people to take action and get the facts out. :(

[lonestarnot]

106. You know this is flamebait... not bite'n!

:-)

[mark414]

116. we killed brown people when we stole the land, and we'll kill em again

even if they just want to visit

[ultraist]

121. Why are legal Cuban-Americans being thrown into the discussion?

Absurd. MOST Cubans in Miami are legal. SOME areas of Miami are very Cuban. Just as China Town in NYC and SF, are Asian areas. Diversity is what the US SHOULD be about. There are FEW natives. Our society is a melting pot, made up of people from around the world.

I cannot believe the ignorant hateful remarks I've been reading that scapegoat Hispanics. How many generations have your families been here?

It's no wonder that Americans have the reputation around the globe for being fat, selfish and dumb. How embarrassing!

[RetroLounge]

122. Wow, this thread is embarrassing

I thought all the bigots were on FreeRepugnant.

Guess I was wrong.

RL