The Pope and the lie and myth of "suffering".

[Raven]

I've about had it with the latest preaching of the Catholic Church about what an example Pope John Paul II was when it comes to suffering and dying. I am a Catholic, by the way. The man had the option of great care in a hospital or great care at home. He chose home. He had great care. I think of the multitudes of people who don't have the choices that he had and would not get the care that he got. This Church has once again shown how far it is from the "flock". To add insult to injury...the man standing next to the priest who announced the Pope's death was Bernard Cardinal Law...the disgraced head of the Archdioses of Boston who covered for the pedophile priests...I wonder if he's in the running for Pope. It would not surprise me if he was. I thought, before this, that I had seen everything with this church...now I'm sure I have.

[thinkingwoman]

1. Bernard Cardinal Law

was there at the announcement? I missed that!

Ugh, what a revolting human being.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

4. The Pope gave him a plum post in Rome so he wouldn't have to face the

music in Boston. So many families were hurt by this scandal. And there are many Catholics in the Boston area questioning their allegiance to the Church.

[thinkingwoman]

21. I'm not Catholic

and didn't follow the story as closely as I should. But I do have lingering bad feelings about this pope over the way he handled (or failed to handle) the pedophile priest scandal.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

2. Raven, I'm Catholic and I agree with you BUT

be prepared for flames. :nuke:

[Raven]

5. Catholic grammer school, catholic high school...

catholic college...I think I have the creds to speak about this. Bring "em on!

[jrthin]

20. Also catholic grammer and high

school, and I fully agree.

[5thGenDemocrat]

25. Raven -- I'm a Catholic

And I still take some comfort in my old-fashioned, passe', antediluvian Catholicism. But I have to admit the pedophilia scandal rocked my faith as hard as it has ever been rocked.
Bernard Law and those like him belong in prison. There are no excuses.
John
Only went to Catholic school through third grade, but DID eat fish every darned Friday during this past Lent (for some inexplicable reason).

[doublethink]

3. So are you leaving the church?

soul searching? just currious. peace. :)

[Raven]

7. I left over the abuse and

the way the Church handled it but my catholic roots go very deep and I am always hoping for better things from these people.

[Midlodemocrat]

35. While I can sympathize with your thoughts on the abuse.

Those were evil men, not the Church. It was not the Lord doing those evil things. The Church is much, much more than the men who comprise it.

I am a cradle Catholic who went to Catholic College and also taught religion in a Catholic High School for a decade. Men make bad choices, it is not the Church. There are still plenty of wonderful people who make up the Catholic Church.

Not to be too argumentative here, Raven, but were you already seeking a reason to leave? Or were you happy with the Church and then disillusioned by the scandals enough to leave. I am just curious, not flaming you.

[cry baby]

6. I got the idea that they were talking about the suffering

from the Parkinsons Disease.

I also hate to see Cardinal Law there in any meaningful way.

[adwon]

8. Curious

Is it the teaching or the apparent hypocrisy that bothers you?

[Raven]

10. Good question...

I don't know really, maybe the hypocrisy...but I know that I made life/death decisions about my parents and when to "pull the plug" and I wonder if that was against Church teaching...I don't know but I do know that I have no regrets.

[adwon]

18. I tell you

that's a decision I don't want to ever have to make. I wouldn't worry too much about church teaching...after all, it's yourself and God you answer to, not the church.

Hypocrisy...

I've seen quite a bit, especially Cardinal Law. Yet, I've seen good, decent leadership as well, such Bishop Gossman of Raleigh. Personally, and I know I'm a bit of a crackpot on this issue, I want to see pretty much the entire American hierarchy (bishop on up) replaced. Then I want to see them removed from direct control over their dioceses. Their role is teaching and leading by example, not corporate heads.

The teaching...

I've never had a problem with teaching redemption through suffering because suffering is relative to the person who is suffering. Translation: transcending the bad of the situation, whatever it is, is the object. Those who actively choose to suffer, just to suffer, are masochists.

Anyway, you're not wrong to go nuts when you see Cardinal Law still permitted to even enter a church. If anyone's earned excommunication, it's him.

[havocmom]

9. There sure was time for a lot of regime building too. Law?

Possible. What confused me was the ticker running this AM on MSNBC. Something about the Vatican announcing 16 new appointments and 5 resignations. Considering the Pope was likely unconscious (if he was even still alive at that point) one might be amazed at the amount of administrative details he attended too! Or shall I put tinfoil on and question whether someone was getting ducks in line?

Law? Hmm, how desperate is the Church to shore up the American branch?
Would they be foolish enough to think Law would do that somehow? Is he under indictment in the US?

And the issue of care is one to ponder. How do most of the world's Catholics fare when health fails? The class distinction chasm seems to be getting pretty damn wide between the people and the ruling class. Sad to think such learned men learn so little from history.

[Raven]

12. Law got out of Boston scott free...

I know of no efforts to hold him accountable. He looked to me today like a man who is enjoying his pasta.

[stellanoir]

11. yeah

unfortunately the "caring for those less fortunate than ourselves" part of Christianity has sadly, sort of been eclipsed by empty rhetoric in recent years.

As for the next Pope, I'm truly rooting for the Nigerian dude. Yeah I know he's conservative but I'm just thinking that Africa is such a mess, it only could help in terms of global attention.

Law never should have been there. He is a total abomination and an utter disgrace.

Counseled his victims for years before he was exposed. Fortunately the Euros have mostly not a clue of his obfuscations.

But I trust the Cardinals might. But who the heck knows?

[merh]

17. I view the leanings of the "cardinals" as conservative or liberal

with a grain of salt. Sort of like the appointment of judges. There are many judges appointed to "life time" posts that do just what they are supposed to do, under the law, despite their conservative lables (e.g. the federal judge in Fla appointed by poppy) and despite politics. Once the conservatives take the position, they follow the laws, not politics.

Politics are necessary to achieve the higher office, once there, politics can be forsaken for a true understanding of the purpose and need of the office. I believe this more so with whoever will be appointed as Pope. He will follow the laws and will lead in accordance with his understanding of the teachings of Christ. I pray he cherishes the New Testament and this appointment will allow him to be a true Father, and not just a politician.

[stellanoir]

23. I totally agree that these simplistically dualistic labels

are totally ineffectual. Yet, I was less thinking about those, and more largely, thinking of geopolitics. That's all.

Well the other thing that's cool is that they vote by a 2/3rds majority, by paper ballots. That's far better than we do at this point.

I've met more than a few former conservatives who are completely appauled by the current cabal's unchecked and imbalanced agenda.

Kinda softens the old Pope's stance on a lot of things. Though I know full well that he wasn't a progressive, and I didn't agree with him on a holy host of positions, but you have to consider that in comparison to these absolute dweebs, he was truly a moderate. That ain't so bad by comparison. He didn't believe in war. He tried to be a man of peace. That's far better than we have now. IMHO

[merh]

27. There are a whole host of positions of the church that I do not

agree with and I am praying that the new pope will not allow himself to be as "protected" as Pope John Paul II was protected. Not from violence, but from what was really happening in the world, in the church.

The "suffering" of the Pope,that is the subject of this post, was not for me to doubt, challenge or minimize. He offered his suffering up for the world, he knows our world is in a very precarious position. He believed in prayer and he wanted to be able to continue his fervent praying for us and against the evil that threatens the world, that evil being greed and the love for power.

I try my best not to question another's suffering. Suffering, afterall, is a very personal thing.

[Princess Turandot]

13. How can you blame the Pope for the lack of universal ,

international healthcare? World governments and their citizens have responsibility for that. Leaving aside the abortion/bc debate, the Catholic Church has probably started more healthcare related organizations than any charity or religious group in the world. He spoke out constantly against economic inequities. Complaining abt Law is one thing - I didn't spot him there myself - but I don't get your point on his healthcare. Were they supposed to toss him into the Tiber when things got bad?

[Raven]

14. No, not toss the poor man into the Tiber but

perhaps acknowledge that most people do not have access to the level of health care that the Pope had. I agree that the Catholic Church has done some wonderful things...only rivaled by the terrible things that it also has done.

[mmonk]

15. Parkinson's, loss of best friend to the Nazis,

loss of a seminary roommate to the Nazis, death of his brother, being shot, ..... I'm not sure.

[AnnInLa]

16. am not Catholic, but one of the Terri Schiavo comments

floored me...didn't the pope say something to the effect that Terri's suffering was the human condition, that people are supposed to suffer? That Jesus had suffered, so it is only right that we suffer as well? Something like that? Someone hear the same thing?

[kiraboo]

22. I'm not going to defend the old guy's actions or beliefs. But

I believe his point about suffering and facing death is not merely a comment on the physical, but also on the emotional and spiritual challenge inherent in facing longterm illness, pain, traumatic illness and eventually, death. When I heard of the comment he made, to wit, that getting old is very, very difficult, I believe he was speaking a truth that surprised even him. Perhaps he had thought that he might somehow be immune to things like Parkinsons. Good care or bad, the nightmare of not being able to breathe, of having your throat operated on and then constantly being intubated (been there, done that... it's horrible), the raging infection etc. etc. All this and no doubt having a second thought or two about the Lord's love and all that. I accept that this man was not perfect and not even close. But none of us are and yet I imagine you would be willing to give me the benefit of the doubt as I would you when it came to my sharing my personal griefs and beliefs with you. Why not give John Paul the same consideration? Just wondering. It sometimes seems like on this board we react with an ugly vengeance to all sorts of people and issues with which we don't agree or sympathize. When freepers behave this way it's evidence of their idiocy and ignorance. How is it different with us?

[AnnInLa]

26. You totally misunderstood my questions

I was NOT reacting with "ugly vengeance" to a person and issue with which I did not agree! I don't know enough about the pope or Catholicism to disagree or agree with anything he said. I was simply trying to understand what he meant by "suffering" in reference to Terri Schiavo....and what he thinks we should "suffer" as humans....I don't understand and was asking questions. You have my sympathy over your loss, but I was not being insensitive, was trying to understand. Cool off just a little.

[kiraboo]

29. No, I didn't misunderstand your questions, and I'm not feeling

at all aggressive toward you! I'm just digressing from the topic... reacting to the sum total of what I've been reading here regarding the Pope. Sorry if it sounded snarky or directed at you personally. No offense intended. -Lisa

[demo dutch]

19. That's the irony of it all...But his papacy was full of contradictions.

To the world the pope was a true champion for social justice, world hunger and peace. However internally he did not honor those values. He opposed the rights of women to become priests, the acceptance of married priests, birth control, even the use of condoms to prevent aids. Gays are not accepted in their own right. He did nothing about the abuse of children by priests. Not even an apology.

By appointing primarily conservative bishops and cardinals he made the Roman Catholic church into a centralized authoritarian powerhouse creating a ridged climate. The progressive thoughts within church coming from Latin American theologians were suppressed.

He took great strides in bettering relations with Jewish leaders but little with other Christians for example Protestants and Roman Catholics can not take communion or break bread together.

RIP

[Cleita]

24. Amen, Raven.

I'm suffering a painful bout of Shingles myself right now, with no one to look after me but myself. I'm not complaining though. At least I have a doctor and prescribed drugs. However, I wouldn't wish this on anyone to suffer, no matter how noble the reasons.

[H2O Man]

28. He still suffered.

A person can suffer in a hospital or in a back alley. A while back, my good friend & brother Solomon and I were discussing the concept of suffering on the religion & theology forum on DU. I quoted for him on a private e-mail a section of an essay a friend of mine wrote on suffering.

It comes from a book that another friend, a professor at a NYS University, was writing on suffering. Another friend, who served 20 years in prison on a conviction later over-turned -- half of it in solitary confinement -- wrote this: "...Like pain is pain, suffering is suffering -- whether being wrongly imprisoned, wrongly placed in a concentration camp, or wrongly abused as a child. But pain is a component of suffering, but is not suffering itself. There are no degrees of suffering."

The essay goes on to speak of bitterness, and of hatred, and how these emotions feed upon the good qualities of a person. Bitterness contaminates the vessel which contains it.

This man, the pope, suffered. If you don't see that, or if you feel compelled to compare it on some moral/economic scale of (in)justice, you miss the lesson that can open your mind and your heart.

[Eloriel]

30. Not often I agree with you

Well said.

[coeur_de_lion]

31. The Pope had Parkinson's disease

This same disease killed a dear uncle of mine 4 years ago. When you have Parkinson's all of the muscles in your body slowly become paralyzed. My uncle went into the fetal position and stayed that way, paralyzed, for two years until he died. Like my uncle, the Pope had to go on tube feeding because his throat muscles no longer worked and if he tried to eat he would choke and aspirate his food (causing pneumonia). He had to go on a respirator because his lungs weren't strong enough to allow him to breathe on his own. When Parkinson's paralyzes you, it isn't like you can no longer feel your limbs. You can, and the muscle cramping that Parkinson's causes is excruciating. I could go on and on about all the other awful things Parkinson's does to the human body, because I saw it first hand.

Because he had the best care money could buy does not mean that the Pope didn't suffer. Parkinson's is a cruel and painful death. I'm glad that he is out of pain.

[Malva Zebrina]

32. Suffering and punishment

and obedience to authority and tradition, especially for women , are cherished principles taught early, before the age of twelve usually--always have been

[mondo joe]

33. The church used to be more progressive on some of this.

There was more of an emphasis on discerning benefit and burden.

The U.S. Bishops’ Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services call for "a presumption in favor of providing nutrition and hydration to all patients," but clarify this is the case "as long as this is of sufficient benefit to outweigh the burdens involved to the patient".

Many have tried to paint this as a black and white issue rather than one that requires consideration of multiple factors.

[hue]

34. They do not "walk the walk"

The Catholic heirarchy preach suffering, abstinence, obedience, humility, and charity to the masses while they have all that they need and more and are given as for example Mother Theresa is the public spot light and the "fast track to sainthood". Mother Theresa fostered a philosophy of suffering for those she housed yet she went to some of the best hospitals in the world for her heart failure. She and the Sisters of Charity refused pain medication for their patients telling them that suffering would benefit them. The Sisters of Charity is a well funded, very rich (tax free) nonprofit org. It is an example of the absolute double standard reigning in the Catholic church.
Yes, I too was born and raised Catholic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Theresa#Criticism