Why isn't the pope on a respirator and kidney dialysis?

[liberal43110]

Apparently, his kidneys are failing and has difficulty breathing...what about the culture of life? What about taking tremendous steps to keep bodies technically "alive" as parts of the bodies continue to fail?

Am I the only one who sees hypocrisy in this?

[leftofthedial]

1. The LIEberal Culture of Death (COD)

is murdering him

It's obvious.

[liberal43110]

8. At first, I thought the sarcasm was funny too

But I'm really concerned about the hypocrisy, or what I see as hypocrisy. The pope even refused to go the hospital.

Are there catholics here who can respond to this? Anyone?

[The Magistrate]

17. The Fellow's Residence, Ma'am

Contains what is essentially an intesive care room, with at least two attendant physicians. There does not seem to my view, anyway, any particular hypocrisy here....

[kenny blankenship]

The pope even refused to go the hospital.

I know it's SHOCKING. I mean what he's doing in refusing treatment when his life is at stake is tantamount to suicide.

[liberal43110]

24. Exactly!

Shouldn't his physical existence be prolonged by multiple artificial means indefinitely? To err on the side of life?

[Cuban_Liberal]

74. He did not refuse.

His physicians believe his care can be managed adequately in the Vatican Infirmary, and they also believe that moving him would kill him, as has been pointed out repeatedly today.

[LittleClarkie]

68. I actually thought that the feeding tube was not considered extraordinary

by the church, but that ventilators and other such machines were considered extraordinary. I guess it was my impression that they don't require that extraordinary measures be taken. But if you didn't believe that Terri was brain dead, then you didn't see a feeding tube as extraordinary.

I think there is a distinction made between feeding tubes and ventilators and such.

Plus, what do you think the Catholic Church is about -- trying to prolong all life indefinitely. The man's 87 years old. I don't think they have issues with natural death. It's more like the cases where someone's had something catostrophic happen, like a car accident, or a heart attack, where these ambiguities come in.

You're reaching a bit with your point, I think.

[leftofthedial]

80. maybe he's already been told there is nothing more they can do

not everyone dies in the hospital.

[Guckert]

2. He is obviously erring on the side of death!!!! maybe he does not want to

SUFFER for years praying for death. Its too bad his mommy is not alive to selfishly argue that it would make her sad :cry:

[Book Lover]

3. Because he doesn't want to be

and his wishes are being honored. Nice when that happens, eh?

[Tweed]

4. What hypocrisy? (EDITED)

Never mind I thought you were yelling at the Catholic Chuch. You are yelling at the media and Republicans.

[liberal43110]

10. Actually...

I think the media, the Republicans, and the Catholic Church are ALL being hypocritical on this.

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. The Church isn't.

You might think so with all the inaccurate bulls*** flying around about what the Church teaches, however.

[liberal43110]

18. I think the catholic church is exceedinly hypocritical

On this issue and many, others.

[Cuban_Liberal]

20. Are you aware of what the Church teaches on this issue?

I'm curious as to what you think it teaches, and from whence you gleaned the information.

[QC]

76. It's been a long time since facts mattered around here,

and that is doubly true where religion is concerned.

[Tweed]

27. Here's an idea, study what the Catholic Church actually believes on this!

What an amazing concept! Do a Google search, come back to the group and tell us what you found. :hi:

[xpat]

5. Do you suppose he signed a living will?

[Auntie Bush]

14. Someone on here posted that he had a DNR on his medical record.

[understandinglife]

6. Calling Dr. Delay, Calling Dr. Frist, Calling Dr. Arbusto, Calling......

.....no one's answering.......


www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[Cuban_Liberal]

7. The Church's teaching on this has been much distorted of late.

There is nothing in Church teaching that requires that he be put on a respirator, or dialysis.

[Bluebear]

12. Are you a church official? Just curious

You know so much and I don't see you posting outside of Catholic issues very much, just raised my curiousity.

[Cuban_Liberal]

15. No, I'm not.

I do, however, know what my Church says on this subject.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

23. Find a post where I said that.

I'll save you time--- I never said that.

[liberal43110]

31. I can't search because I'm not a donor

But I believe it was in a post in a thread you started within the past couple weeks. I think the original post was a snip/link to an article by a disability rights activist...first name of Mary, perhaps?

Can you post that link, please?

[Cuban_Liberal]

32. I never made such a post

Someone else may have, but I didn't.

[BrklynLiberal]

40. Mary Johnson : disabilities rights activist

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. To whose work *I* have never linked.

Others may have.

:shrug:

[Az]

9. Because the Pope was able to consciously dictate his desired treatement

The issue surrounding Schiavo was that she was not able to consciously dictate the path of her treatment. The zealots were claiming that unplugging her without her specific acceptance was murder. They discarded the hearsay testimony of Michael and other witnesses.

The Pope meanwhile can clearly dictate whether he wants a specific treatment or not.

[Cleita]

11. Kidneys usually fail as death approaches. Dialysis won't do

any good at this stage. He's probably getting oxygen and doesn't need a respirator. Since we aren't his doctors nor in his sick room as observers speculating on these things is counterproductive.

[distressedsister]

16. They have worked themselves into a corner

such that if he were ever put on a machine, they couldn't take him off!

[Cuban_Liberal]

19. No, they haven't.

What the Church actually teaches, as opposed to what has been said here at DU that the Church teaches, are not one in the same.

[liberal43110]

25. Then enlighten us with your opinion on what the catholic church

dictates on this issue.

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. They teach that one may decline extraordinary medical intervention.

They also teach that ordinary hydration and nutririon are not extraordinary, whereas respirators and dialysis are.

[theboss]

33. The Church's position is....

Feeding tubes are ordinary care. To quote the current Pope:

"I should like particularly to underline how the administration of water and food, even when provided by artificial means, always represents a natural means of preserving life, not a medical act. Its use, furthermore, should be considered, in principle, ordinary and proportionate, and as such morally obligatory, insofar as and until it is seen to have attained its proper finality, which in the present case consists in providing nourishment to the patient and alleviation of his suffering."

Vespirators and the like are considered extraordinary care and may be cut off in certain instances.

It's really not that complex an issue.

Edited to add: I don't completely agree with this position, by the way. I just think it is pretty straightforward, like most things regarding John Paul II.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MollyStark]

22. No this is different. He is dying, Terri Shaivo was not

Well sure he would die if they didn't give him food or water for two weeks, but he is going to die or has died much sooner than that.
Terri Shaivo's bodily functions weren't shutting down. She was simply severely brain damaged. She didn't need dialisis or a respirator.
How can you compare the two situations?

[Az]

26. The human mind only needs the slightest of similarities

to form connections and perceptions of shared situations.

[patcox2]

34. That is true, and explains much error.

I think humans have two traits which are the primary defining attributes of what it is to be human: We create patterns, we define and categorize, and we throw things. Throwing stuff is absolutely primal, we throw frisbees, baseballs, footballs, we hit golfballs, tennis balls, raquetballs. Its all connected. We are the animal that throws things.

I am serious about the throwing things. I have seen some references to the idea that the development of missiles, rocks, spears, etc., is connected to why we are what we are. The excess brain power required to instantly calculate ballistic trajectories, and which otherwise goes unused most of the time, led to our intelligence.

[Az]

38. I actually use an example based on our mind's ballistic ability

To demonstrate the nature of thought. I throw something to a person and ask them to consciously calculate all the variables involved in the action. Then marvel at the ability of the mind to do such a thing in the blink of an eye.

[Auntie Bush]

62. My dog throws toys up in the air and then tries to catch them.

I guess he's part human.

[Az]

72. Or has a brain

There seems to be this notion that human brains are completely different than any other brains on the planet. We are actually less developed in many ways than other species. We just happen to be specialized in different areas that give rise to a higher level of intelligence.

[Eloriel]

44. Well said, Molly

and one of the key problems I've had with this case.

Of course, I finally was made aware that the Supreme Court (1973?) ruled that tube-fed food and water were indeed "medicine" but that doesn't make it so to me.

Put another way, if that is indeed the case, then there are probably a lot of people in simple comas that are being kept artificially alive and are in danger (or should be, by this logic!) of having their life support systems unplugged.

[MollyStark]

75. Yes it seems very simple

one body was dying with or with out food and water. One body would only die without food and water. The Pope was being feed and getting hydrated and he is going to die no matter what they do. One body shutting down, one is not.

But some people are driven by politics and by the need to be against whatever the Right (and anyone religious must be right leaning of course)is for. So they lose all logic.

[saracat]

45. IMHO, Terri Shiavo was Already dead. The Pope is dying.

but ther is NO evidence his brain is gone. Big difference. I wish people wouldn't continue to think a body without a brain is living. In that case Terri's death would be like murdering a plant!

[Az]

52. Life is a far more confusing word that we would think

It is a word filled with all sorts of sacred meanings and implications. Some fear examining life too closely because they worry we will strip it of it's sacredness.

[MollyStark]

77. "Terri was already dead" -----> not true

unless you totally disregard biology.

[theboss]

28. Because that is not what the Church currently teaches...

I think there has been a lot of hypocrisy flying around these last two weeks. I don't see why it's necessary to fling it around now.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

29. Correct me if I'm wrong

but I think the Church views artificial respirators and feeding tubes differently. They consider feeding tubes not be an extraordinary measure to save life. I'm not 100% I"m right, but that's what I've been told.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. The Church Views Hydration And Nutrition As Ordinary Care

whether you get it from your mama, McDonalds or a feeding tube...

[kenny blankenship]

49. Medical experts view intubation (feeding through stomach)

as no different than assisted breathing.
And WHO ARE YOU going to consult when you have an abcessed appendix?

[Cuban_Liberal]

50. Do medical experts head churches?

Apples and oranges, my friend.

[kenny blankenship]

53. Without air you will die, without water you will die.

Not apples and oranges after all.

[Cuban_Liberal]

55. Yes, it is.

It's been explained repeatedly what the diference is, and I'm frankly to tired to go into again. Read John Paul's encyclical, Evangelium Vitae, if you're truly interested in understanding the difference...

[ultraist]

58. The medical definitions of life support are logically, the church's aren't

Feeding tubes are life supports just as repiratory tubes are. If the church wants to put out their own definitions that defy logic, they have the right to do so, but it doesn't mean we believe it.

[Cuban_Liberal]

60. They're quite logical.

We don't all have to accept your definition of 'logic', either.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. It's Impossible To Have A Civil Discussion On This...

But I think wise and dispassionate men would agree that there are different levels of medical intervention whether through drugs, surgery, or devices that range from the ordinary to the truly extraordinary which in the absence of such intervention death would occur...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Are You Asking Me What My Medical Team Or Spiritual Team Will Look Like?

eom

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. I Was Merely Quoting Church Doctrine...

Sorry you feel that way...

Kisses


Brian

[gordianot]

37. Good question.

Intubation is also being used? His body could also be maintained with a heart lung machine if there is heart failure. So I guess when the heart stops beating and cannot breathe on your own you are dead?

I remember similar conversation when my Mother died several years ago. My brother had her intubated and they started blood transfusions before I got to the hospital. After much discussion with the Doctors we followed his suggestion to removing breathing tube there was no chance she would recover. I stayed with her as they removed the tube. Near the end she was aware of what was going on as she held my hand.

I asked for no opinion from clergy or Government. It was the decision of my brother and myself with a recommendation from our Physicians.

Pope John Paul II is a good man and the culture of life issue is a slippery slope we may all face. I prefer to keep Government and Clergy out of these decisions

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. It's Also Common Sense...

I'm not a physician (sic) but I would assume most physicians would say there comes a point that a body is so broken that heroic measures such as ventilators, respirators, and dialysis are futile...

[ultraist]

56. Yes, "end of life" condition

Like Terri Shiavo was. Massive brain damage with no chance for recovery, terminal illness or old age with general life threatening condtions are all examples of end of life conditions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. But For The Removal Of The Tube Terri Schiavo Would Still Be Alive...

eom

[saracat]

63. But for watering my plants would still be alive!

They were as sentient as Terri, who "died" , fifteen years ago. Why are people so hung up on her "body" ? Why would anyone want to simply"exist" . If my brain were gone, I would be gone. I had neurolgists constantly checking my Dadbrain activity when they wanted me to disconnect him. Only when I was certain he was gone did I disconnect him. A body without a brain is worthless. INMHO.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. I'm Not Even Debating Terri Schiavo...

I am here to disabuse people of the erroneous notion that the Pope is being hypocritical for refusing life support in this instance...

[saracat]

67. I agree then!

[MollyStark]

78. Are we talking about facts here or your emtions?

Just curious

[saracat]

79. As far as I am concerned, if you can't think , you are "dead'.

She had no cerebral cortex. Look at the cat scan. She couldn't think. A body is nothing without a brain. It is worthless and the essence of the person is gone. That isn't emotion, that is science. No one credible medically thought she could think.
The Pope can still think reportedly but is dying. He hasn't ceased to exist but will die.

[whistle]

42. Gee, that would err on the side of life wouldn't it?

[Malva Zebrina]

43. the question is not silly. It's interesting

Mrs. Schiavo did not leave a written document declaring no artificial means, but her husband , as well as two others close to her, swore under oath that she said she did not want to have artificial means to keep her alive . I suppose the Pope has left a written document, although we do not know what it says, we only have what he said about Mrs. Schiavo as a clue to his take on keeping a body alive by artificial means, and that was that the GI tube should not be removed, thus approving of this artificial means to keep her alive even though she had no brain left except for the most primitive. Am I right about that? It' getting hard to keep all the facts together.

So, I don't think it is a silly question to ask as there does seem to be something that is not consistent.

As I see the Pope slipping,I wonder if something more should be done to keep him alive in view of his unequivocal stance on Mrs. Schiavo and obviously something he would want for himself. We heard that Falwell was hooked up to a respirator when breathing was difficult and in danger of stopping altogether.

Instead we see a natural progression after one or two interventions that failed, from life to death in an 84 year old man, whose later life was plagued with Parkinson's disease weakening him much in his later years , and it is being allowed to progress naturally.

[cmf]

46. The difference I see is that

He's suffering from septic shock. Putting him on a respirator or dialysis won't prolong his life. Even if you keep him breathing or keep his kidneys alive, he will eventually die of heart failure anyway. Difficulty breathing and kidney failure are just the first signs.

[gordianot]

47. Almost, however.

In a few years you may be able to grow a new kidney and heart, then it becomes medical treatment?

[kenny blankenship]

48. Better chance

If he were on life support systems (which apparently he's declining in a bid for suicide/self-hastened death) he'd have INFINITELY greater chances of recovering a semblance of health than Terri Schiavo's mindless, brain-liquefied corpse ever had of regaining an awareness of itself and its surroundings.

Seems to me he's not fighting the good fight here, and giving into the idea that death at the right time may be more preferable than a machine assisted parody of life.

[liberal43110]

73. Well said

:hi:

[K-W]

61. Its really not that hypocritical.

Just foolish. They draw destinctions between processes of life. Kedney dialysis to them is not the same a feeding tube, which they equate with helping someone eat.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. I'm Not A Physician (Sic)

but everything reported on tv leads one to believe the Pope's condition is irreversible...


He's septic... His blood pressure is dropping rapidly... His kidneys are failing... His lungs are failing... His heart is failing...


Outside of divine intervention the death process can't be reversed...

That's just common sense....

[K-W]

66. Oh certainly.

I was just adressing the hypothetical presented by the oringinal posters mistaken assessment of the situation.

Even if he could be kept alive through extraoridnary measures, it wouldnt be inconsistant with thier stance. They classify life support efforts, some arent considered extraordinary, some are. Generally food and water are considered un-extraordinary, which is why the Catholic church supported keeping Terri alive. I dont know thier policy on dialysis, but at some point they draw a line and say that the death process has begun and it is wrong to interefere.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. A Couple Of Points Friend..

And I am just sharing with you what I know of mainstream Catholic thought in this area...


When treatment is futile it is no longer necessary...

Situation One...

An otherwise healthy man comes down with pneumonia and is put on a ventilator... After a short term on a ventilator physicians expect him to make a full recovery...

Most Catholics as well as most mainstream Jews, Christians, and Muslims would applaud that intervention...

Situation Two...

An eighty five year old man in the advanced stages of Alzheimer's Disease with stage 5 colon cancer ( two or more positive lymph nodes which have spread to other organs) contacts pneumonia... Putting him on a ventilator will only prolong his agony by weeks or months but not lead to meaningful recovery...

Most Catholics as well as mainstream Jews, Christians, and Muslims would say it is permissible to refuse a ventilator or heroic measures in that situation...

The Pope is clearly in Situation Two...

[Cuban_Liberal]

70. Good analysis!

:thumbsup: