I have a question that no one here will address......she said peevishly

[AnnInLa]

I have asked this several times here on DU during the Schiavo circus and have gotten no reply....if someone doesn't reply now, I'm going to get more paranoid than usual.

1. The media made it seem as if the main dissention between Schiavo and the Schindlers was that they didn't believe his assertion that Terri had expressed to him a desire not to have extrordiary life supports.

2. The media went on and on about the importance of having a living will.

3. I saw reports where the Schindlers had previously given interviews in which they said it would not have mattered if Terri had a living will or not, they still would have fought just as hard to keep her body alive.

4. A repuke state legislator in my state has just announced plans to introduce a bill that feeding tubes and other life supports cannot ever be removed by medical personnel under any circumstances.

My question is....Do hard-line pro-lifers and those protesters outside the hospice believe that having a living will makes no difference one way or the other? Would they have everyone's body preserved for years and years until "natural death", REGARDLESS of a living will? (Yeah, I know about the $$ costs, but they don't seem to think of those practical things.) Do they believe in living wills, or in preserving the body in every situation?

Can you point me to any RW websites that would answer my question?

Thanks very much.....I heart DU!

[ck4829]

1. A freeper said living wills should be abolished

I can't find the quote, a DU'er found it.

[etherealtruth]

4. Just what I would want...

...wackos deciding how I live and die...

[SteveG]

2. Some of the Crazies

in the Religious Right would get rid of living wills and take end of life decisions out of the hands of the individual and their families. You are quite correct. That's why they must be fought tooth and nail.

[recoveringrepublican]

3. can't give you any info, but any chance I can get more on that bill?

People think I'm crazy that I believed part of this whole thing from the religious right was to nullify living wills.

[MominTN]

18. restraint

That's why government has to be restrained. When they make laws that don't affect you, people tend to ignore what they are doing. But your situation may be next.

[AnnInLa]

19. check out my post in the Louisiana forum

and I saw a more complete report than that...will try to locate it for you

[recoveringrepublican]

30. Thank you so much for any info, will check out the LA forum nt.

[mirandaod]

5. I've heard that living wills can be challenged.

It's a scary thought that some fundy family member could start causing trouble, even when a patient has a living will. The lawyers might have a better take on this, but I'm thinking that you'd also be wise to sign a power-of-attorney for health care, giving authority to someone you completely trust. The more documents, the better, I'm thinking.

[mondo joe]

10. ANYTHING can be challenged. But even if you win, look at the Schiavo case

- her will was denied for 7 years of legal battles, even though she won every one of them.

[Discord]

11. Yes, a living will can be contested.

The number one thing to do is to make sure your DIRECT family members are understanding with your wishes, and to get those closest to you to sign as witnesses. Especially anyone in your immediate family you may be concerned may contest it.

Also, giving someone you trust power-of-attourney is essential to protect yourself and have someone who can fight for you if the need arises.

[BlueEyedSon]

6. It's all a game to bolster up the pro-life (re: abortion) argument.

That's all.

[Discord]

7. Well, I dont think that you want to be going to RW sites

if your looking for any facts. The medical community will go ape shit if they try to subvery living wills and try to make it illegal to discontinue life-support under any circumstances.

There will be many people, who get hooked up on life-support, who cannot afford the medical costs. Heath-care providers will have to absorb all the medical expense, the purchasing of new life support machines, since now the ones in use would never be free and could be tied up on a essentially dead body, for 10, 20, 30, even 50 years.

They may get it passed in some local districts, but I dont think it will fly nationally.

I think your essentially looking for reason where there is none.

They are not reasonable, sensible, or rational. So don't try to find it, its not there.

[mondo joe]

8. There was a quote posted here from the head of one of those fundy

groups like Focus on the Family or somesuch saying a living will is meaningless.

And there's another legal case going on now in which a living will IS being challenged.

[shoelace414]

9. how many 25 year olds have living wills?

[Discord]

13. Not enough. eom

[Inland]

16. Well, exactly.

To demand that everyone without a living will is kept alive forever is to put an unreasonable demand on young people, who IF they have brain death, are going to find their young and otherwise healthy organs are kept going forever.

[Inland]

12. I think the extremists do believe

that a feeding tube should never be removed, even if she would never recover. Some might go farther and say ventilators and such should never be removed.

The fundies are outraged at Jeb and W. for giving them all this rhetoric about life, etc, and yet they won't change the law that allows feeding tubes to be removed.

[Az]

14. I suspect they would view such a thing as suicide

A belief system that has as one of it's hooks a belief that what occurs after you die is superior to that which preceeds death has some problems. Namely left at that everyone would head for the nearest cliff. Thus very strong taboos concerning unnatural death have to be included as well.

Death at the hand of another is a major violation. But suicide is seen as far worse. Simply because they cannot have adherants offing themself to enter the kingdom of heaven when they choose to.

So in a belief system with these criteria any semblance of life is going to be seized upon and defended at all costs. A living will will be discarded in a heartbeat as it is a declaration of suicide. And that cannot be.

[AnnInLa]

27. Thanks you AZ....that's what I wanted to know....their beliefs.....because

am wondering about the following:

We were able to view a microcosm of the extremist-fundy position during the Schiavo circus...during which they turned on the bush boys, the legislatures, the judges with a vengeance, even threatening them with withdrawal of their support/votes.

I read alot of liberal bloggers who said the GOP may lose some extreme-fundy votes over this, and the repukes have a small "mandate" as it is, and can't afford to lose that vote. Some bloggers even suggested that if the fundies get disgusted enough, they will form their own "Life Party" or just withdraw from politics and stay home.

Other liberal bloggers suggested traditional GOPers were horrified about the DeLay/Bush/Congressional interference in this case.

There will be much GOP legislation introduced at the federal and state levels to address "end of life" issues.

THEREFORE, can we use the schism in their belief systems to our advantage? Will the extremist-fundies become enraged over traditional-Gopers' efforts to introduce bills about removal of feeding tubes IF THE INDIVIDUAL DOESN'T HAVE A LIVING WILL? Will they demand that Living Wills have NO part in the proposed legislations?

I would still like to read some RW fundy sites that explain their BELIEFS about living wills v.s. "natural death."

Thanks to all who responded, I am no longer paranoid. Am just trying to figure out the political implications of Living Wills vs Natural Death.

[Walt Starr]

15. That is the ultimate goal of the religiously insane

They want to make absolutely certain that you have no control over your end of life experience.

[havocmom]

24. Walt, I would like to add a theory, based on watching the pols who use

the religious far right: People in end of life situations often have some assets left that the corporations have not managed to get their claws into. Getting the fundamental religious zealots to scream for this cause, yet again, is an attempt to make damn sure a family is completely destitute due to medical costs. The corporations (think Frist's family) will bleed every cent out of a grieving family if they get half a chance. They will FORCE people to remain consumers up to their last breath because they are that fucking greedy.

It is NOT a 'culture of life'. It is just another armed robbery and once again, the religious right are having their emotions cranked up and used as the weapon with which the robbery is being attempted.

[Katarina]

17. My answer based on my experience...

I had a long talk with my mother the other day about the fact that if I were ever in a position similar to Terri, I would NOT want to be kept alive. Just judging by her reaction, I know that no matter if I have a living will and that I have told her my wishes she would fight it. Up until the minute Terri died she believed God could work a miracle. If it were his will, Terri could grow a new brain. (sigh)

What I don't understand is if these people are so much into their faith, why does dying scare them so much? For instance, right now, Falwell and the Pope both want to be kept alive by any means. But shouldn't the ultimate goal be to go and be with their Lord? What are they afraid of?

And just a note before someone takes my post the wrong way...I am not Christian bashing. I am really confused by this.

[BlueEyedSon]

21. Religion is a socially acceptable mass psychosis.

Their fantasies about "miracles" are just one symptom.

[MominTN]

22. Maybe it's just politics

They are rallying the pro-lifers without considering the facts. And they think it will justify their attempt to get rid of "liberal judges" who go against their wishes. They are also keeping tv watchers busy with something they can get passed in congress, a law for one comatose person, when they can't do anything else for America.

[BlueEyedSon]

23. It's political for their leaders, are the rank-and-file that manipulable?

Don't people's moms have a mind of their own?

[HuskiesHowls]

26. George Felos made an interesting statement yesterday

during his press conference.
He said that this was not so much a case of the Sanctity of Life, as it was a Fear of Death.

My feelings are that he is very correct.

[Old and In the Way]

20. The fundie RWers operate under some premises-

(1) The world is either black or white, there are no shades of gray.
(1a) If their leaders say black is now white, there is no inconsistancy in their position.
(2) They are certain they know best for everyone.
(3) They fear the unknown (future).
(4) They love God so much, they will do anything to keep from dying.
(5) They support a "culture of life", especially a $400BB/year military budget, invading countries without due cause and killing 100's of thousands of innocent people, and the death penalty.
(6) They love the Jesus that is a big proponent of the "ownership society".

[mondo joe]

25. All you have to see are the "No one should die this way" posts to know

the opposition of many was not based soley on the lack of a living will.

Furthermore, some said things like "She wouldn't have known when she got married that her husband would be next of kin instead of her family" --- so if they can question her ability to understand THAT legal contract why would they think she could understand a living will?

[coeur_de_lion]

28. I'm Catholic and a few members of my family

believe that a living will endorses euthanasia. Of course we all know that it doesn't. My own living will is very specific, that I do not want to be kept alive by any artificial means, including nutrition and hydration. I have had it witnessed and notarized by an attorney. Some Catholics believe that turning off the respirator is okay but denying nutrition and hydration is euthanasia. The Catholic Church does not have an official position, as far as I know, on living wills per se. They just say that suicide and euthanasia are against Church teachings. Judging by the Vatican's reaction to the death of Mrs. Schiavo they must believe that denying hydration and nutrition is euthanasia.

I had an elderly relative who lived for two years on a respirator and was tube fed until his kidneys finally gave out. He had Parkinson's disease -- just like the Pope. It was a very unpleasant and painful death. He would not, while he was still lucid, sign any form of advanced directive. Our priest at the time said it would be okay for him to ask that the respirator be turned off but he refused. He was an old-school Catholic who thought it was tantamount to suicide. But that was his wish, and the family respected it.

I think it should go without saying that if a person signs an advanced directive it should be respected by their family and by the courts. But this case is going to open that up for argument.

I didn't know that the Schindler's said that they would have fought a living will if Terri had signed one. That is so awful, I can't even express how I feel about it. I had some sympathy for them as grieving parents, but no more.

[seabeyond]

29. preachin to the choir

maybe that is not why you are getting a lot of responses. seems like you got it down. not to mention all the taking over right to decide, tearing donw our judiciary, pulling state power adn going federal.

yup yup yup

and no i dont have any rw sites. not my thing. i live with enough. i dont need to find a site to know what they are thinking and saying and who they are

[peacetalksforall]

31. Ignornance reigns. At marriage, doesn't the father 'give' the

daughter away? Don't the vows say 'to death do us part'? Doesn't Congress make the law? Don't the courts interpret and rule on the law?

If your brain is dead....how dead is your 'being'?

Instead of or in addition to a fear of death, aren't these people obsessed by the body? And don't they want rules (i.e., laws) over the body by big government so that EVERYONE has to do, say, and believe what they believe?

And, yes, didn't the cabal that runs the fundies figure that out and recognize a way to make money from it - never let a person die, always give birth. (Except for the part about duping young kids into death and dismemberment for corporate/military gain in wars of imperialism or using people for guinea pigs or not caring about death in places like Darfur or politically criticizing the Clinton admin when they moved against massacres in the old Yugoslavia?)

So have any of the freepers said that the first thing needed is to get rid of the Texas law pushed through the TX legislation and signed by George?

[onenote]

32. if they had real principles and beliefs...

consistency would require them to take the position that a person's request to have a feeding tube disconnected, even if reflected in a written advanced directive, would not be honored. And, arguably, consistency would also demand the same thing with respect to respirators, heart machines, even chemotherapy...

But they don't have real principles or beliefs...just politically motivated BS...

onenote