Before you say Mrs Schiavo is being murdered, or this is barbaric

[mondo joe]

You should stop for a moment to consider that there are many DU posters who have been through similar experiences with family members.

A number have spoken about removal of feed tubes and other forms of life support.

Many more have spoken about family members in hospice who died through dehydration/starvation.

They have shared accounts of the experience here on DU in threads like these:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3348428
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3363109&mesg_id=3363109

Besides the fact that you could learn a lot about what this process is actually like by reading their accounts, please consider that when you called Michael Schiavo a murderer, you are in effect calling everyone who had made this decision a murderer.

When you say this is barbaric and inhumane, you are telling your fellow posters that's what they are, and you are saying it despite the fact that it is so contrary to what actually happened.

You are furthermore insulting and demeaning Hospice workers, who have a special calling to help people pass out of this life in the most peaceful and painless way they can.

If all that's not enough you can get some medical facts about dehydration in hospice in a few places, but some are very handily right in this forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3362140
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3346554

[Dookus]

1. alas

this seems to be one of those issues on which minds are made up prior to learning anything about it. People take their facts as needed to back up their position, even if they are proven lies from right-wing sources.

[mondo joe]

2. I have little hope left that people will be intellectually honest, but I

do hope they might at feel obliged to be considerate of the losses felt by their fellow DU members.

[Lithos]

3. I fit in this category

And agree it was the best and only real choice. The outcome was known by the terminal diagnosis. The only choice was how to reach it. Starvation/Dehydration is a very natural death process. Mother Nature (or God and/or Evolution if you like), has made this extremely humane in that the body undergoes significant changes which create numerous endorphins making this relatively painless.

[mondo joe]

4. Honestly, I think we are so disconnected from even our own biology

that many people just don't know what happens when people are dying.

In the old days it happened in our homes, same way people were born, and the comings and goings were part of life.

Thanks for sharing.

And on a frivolous note, cute avatar!

[Lithos]

5. You are welcome

Tis very egotistical on our part to think we are able to do much about it at this time. It's part of being alive in that everything dies.

Thanks about the avatar!

L-

[hlthe2b]

6. I've tried to share my own story several times, but some of the

sanctimonious attitudes among those who don't have a clue, either medically-- or based on personal emotional experience-- has kept me from it. To these individuals: I urge you to educate yourself on the issues from real, valid, medical sources. Death and tragedy bypass none of us. I hope you get the compassion that some of you are ready to deny others.

Suffice it to say that my father's final gift to me was to save me from being responsible for the ultimate decision on the very day I was to remove respirator support--this after 3 solid months of hell in and out of consciousness in ICU. Not only did he arrest on the day I was to make the decision (upon which, fortunately, my sister was in total agreement), but he sent me the ultimate sign that this was his desire... You see after 3 months during which he had fought very hard to survive an amazing litany of post-surgical complications and nearly died several times (including ironically on Easter Sunday), he ultimately did die on the anniversary of his wedding to my Mother--who had died that same year. This wasn't a case of giving into grief. My father survived so much hell that he had to want to live-- for my sister and I. Minutes after assuring him my sister and I would be alright, he simply let go.

Though it has been 18 years, it still feels like yesterday. This kind of pain never leaves you. Those who have never "been there," need to realize that before posting such insensitive comments as I have seen in recent weeks. Someday, somehow, it may well be you, who is facing the worst decision of your life...........

[beam me up scottie]

7. I'm glad you told it.

The reality is that living is sometimes more painful than dying.

[hlthe2b]

17. Thank you...

We make decisions to end suffering for the patient. Unfortunately these decisions may only serve to prolong the surviving family's pain. I sense that many, like me, are feeling those raw emotions flood back during this whole saga.

[mondo joe]

8. I feel I've benefited from reading these accounts, yours included

I am genuinely touched by the heartfelt emotions so many have expressed, the difficulty and the resolution.

Thanks for sharing.

[beam me up scottie]

9. Yes, I have learned many lessons from the stories as well.

I have saved some of them to rely on just in case I ever need strength in a similar situation. I hope I never have to decide another's fate, but these days with the technology existing to prolong "life" indefinitely, that's unrealistic, isn't it?

[mondo joe]

10. The whole "culture of life" thing strikes me as terribly immature.

Life includes its end, and although I'm not in any RUSH to get to the end, I think its important to recognize as part of the journey.

[beam me up scottie]

12. My dad has always found it ridiculous

that billions of dollars are spent on ways to prolong life while ignoring the fact that the quality of life for so many, due to poverty, sickness, ignorance and apathy is deplorable.

[Hoping4Change]

43. Well as I think about your post, I realize that this sad story

reflects an essential aspect of RW ideology; namely, quality of life is never an issue for them. And this plays out in their anti-choice position on abortion, the fetus is protected but little if any consideration of the child's quality of life after it is born.

Neocons lack interest in fully sentient beings.

[hlthe2b]

16. Thank you for the support and calm, intelligence/sensitivity on this issue

To end suffering should be at the top of all of our lists. That includes understanding that fighting for life--at all costs-- may be in conflict with this premise.

For those who believe in a compassionate God, why would you NOT want your terminally ill or (end-stage, irreversibly) brain damaged love one to go to God? I just don't get it....We show more understanding and compassion to our beloved pets (thankfully for them).

[Turn CO Blue]

42. Thank you for opening up...I do understand

and I have "been there" myself...and I was the one who had to make the decision for the rest of my family. Difficult is not a strong enough word...

[GodHelpUsAll2]

11. Thank you

I myself have watched a close family member die in this exact fashion. And I have taken a lot of personal offense at the referrals of this being murder and barbaric behavior. I'm sad to say that my feelings for a lot of posters on this board have been forever altered. Which is killing my soul because I have fought the political fight so hard for so long side by side with some of these very same people. How can that continue when some view me as barbaric and are so willing to lump me in the same category as someone who coldly murders someone. I now have the job of figuring out how to reconcile these opinions with what use to be the common goal of changing the political landscape. Honestly, I don't know if I can.

[hlthe2b]

13. I"m with you... This too shall pass and hopefully some...

will have learned some needed lessons, even if they are not posting in a way that we can tell.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

15. It makes me physically ill

lierally.

FYI: "This too shall pass". Funny you should use that phrase. That was one thing I remember vividly hearing my Grandma say frequently. When something would go wrong she would always say to me in that caring grandmotherly way "Don't worry hon, this too shall pass". She is the very one I watched die after her food and water were stopped.

[hlthe2b]

19. I'm not sure where I get this phrase--probably my own late grandmother...

I hope, though, that you have come to believe-- with all certainty-- that your Grandma is at peace. I truly believe that she is, as well as my own very dearly missed family members.

If there is such a thing as "reaching from the beyond," I truly hope that some of our wise departed can act on those who are exploiting religion, hope, believe, and the most painful and personal crises we face. There may not be sufficient spots in hell for those wielding power with such malevolent intentions....

[GodHelpUsAll2]

35. I do believe it

100% I believed it that very night she died and I still believe it now. It was truely amazing the sense of relief and peace that very moment she took her last breath. And she left this worl with all of her children and 3 of her grand daughters assuring her it was ok to go and we would be fine.

Hell is going to need a general contractor soon. It needs to build an addition, fast!

[mondo joe]

14. I think the only way is for people who have real experiences like yours

to let people acting out of ignorance know what they're doing.

I think the people talking about this being cruel or inhumane for the most part just don't know any better, and they are unaware of the impact on their DU friends of saying these things.

I hope if they can see someof these stories it will help them to understand.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

18. I have tried

to share my story. But with no success. I have found that the most adamant about this being akin to murder don't want to hear it and are unwilling to even consider anything other than their POV. I never get any response. I have come to the conclusion that more of these people than not don't much care about anything other than their personal opinion and have a blatant disregard for fact or experience or anything else for that matter. The double standards being displayed are disgusting at best. I have weighed in on several threads. None of my questions have been responded to. I do not look for it to get any better. As bad as I hate to say it, I have just about come to the conclusion that society as a whole is so far gone it will be next to impossible to save it.

[mondo joe]

23. Thanks for doing it. The one thing I've noticed is that for as many

posts about "murder" and "suffering" as I see on DU, I never see ANY in the threads about people's personal experience.

I don't think they'd have the nerve to actually say it TO someone about themselves, but it's easy to say in the abstract.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

29. I guess you are right

I have noticed that when I post a direct response I never get a direct reply. Only replys downline. Isn't it interesting that no one is willing to discuss this with me, or any of us with experience in the mater directly?

[mondo joe]

30. It's interesting - I really wish one of them would out and out

say something to you about it.

Have you ever tried to PM someone to tell them how off base they are?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

34. Oh yes

But as usual, no reply. That is the most frustrating thing about it. I do not claim to be an expert on the matter. But I do have experience with it first hand. On 3 occasions I have watched this very scenario. I would think some would at least be willing to discuss. But no one is interested. The conclusion I have come to is no one is really thinking about Teri Shiavo's death. They are focusing in on the accusations that her husband abused her, is after money and the big ticket item is he has kids now with another woman. I honestly think most of the heel's dug in stance is coming from people who have had a relationship gone wrong and are equating their own betrayals with this case. But guess what, I have experience in that field also. My own marriage went south. But somehow, I managed to not judge others based on someone else's sins.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

38. Thanks for

the discussion MJ. I have to jump off now and go make pies for the family Easter Dinner and egg hunt for the kids. Have a great Easter!

[TrustingDog]

20. the world has a 100% death rate.

in many rainbow colours of alert.

I myself prefer to die in my sleep peacefully, not screaming in terror like my passengers... I may even prefer suffering for months in my comfy westerness than watching my family blown up in bits before my eyes by dumb bombs and then I die more deaths than I think I can possibly take.

This world we have IS hell, what could be possibly more hellish? and the same one Here now is our Heaven. Hug your kids, tell your friends you love them. You are the maker of these things. That hell shit flies unawares and can grab you anytime, anywhere, but you are in control of your small heavens.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

21. Very wise words, indeed n/t

This world we have IS hell, what could be possibly more hellish? and the same one Here now is our Heaven. Hug your kids, tell your friends you love them. You are the maker of these things. That hell shit flies unawares and can grab you anytime, anywhere, but you are in control of your small heavens

[wellst0nev0ter]

22. If You're Gonna Call Plugpullers Murderers

Add Tom Delay and Robert Schindler to the list.

[NYC]

27. Robt. Schindler & mother's death.

But, given the vehemence with which he has been fighting to prolong Terri's life, it is a little surprising to learn that Robert decided to turn off the life-support system for his mother. She was 79 at the time, and had been ill with pneumonia for a week, when her kidneys gave out. "I can remember like yesterday the doctors said she had a good life. I asked, 'If you put her on a ventilator does she have a chance of surviving, of coming out of this thing?'" Robert says. "I was very angry with God because I didn't want to make those decisions."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1077219,00.html

Nov. 4, 2003 article in the Guardian.

Very interesting that both DeLay and Schindler were able to "pull the plug" on others, but now call Michael Schiavo "barbaric".

[Flammable Materials]

24. With no sensible laws allowing for humane end-of-life procedures ...

... we are left with this (seemingly) barbaric method.

Whose fault is this?

[mondo joe]

25. Then you've missed the point. Why do you think it's barbaric?

Did you read ANY of the acccounts of people who have been through this with family members?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

28. I rest my case

Once again, the acusation of a barbaric means.

[guinivere]

32. Why is this barbaric? n/t

[Flammable Materials]

48. Note I qualified my statement.

When I said "seemingly barbaric", I meant to the average person.

I am not in the "Feed Terri" camp here. I'm saying that in a civilized society, it would not be a crime to assist her quickly and peacefully out of this life. It should not take a week of starvation and dehydration. Given that this is the only option permitted by an American society that claims to respect the "sanctity of life" (but sadly, not the "dignity of life" or the right of self-determination for that matter), I understand and respect that it is the way it must be done. Also, I realize that she is not conscious in any way and not suffering.

[Career Prole]

26. A few have found this thread helpful...

Those that think it's barbaric to let her go should at least consider what they may have been keeping her from all these years.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3362671

[JimmyJazz]

31. Excellent post, MJ

:)

[Hamlette]

33. thanks, mondo joe!

I too shared one of my many stories in this area. End of life decisions are the most difficult anyone ever makes and they are never made easily.

I hope that other Americans who have been put through the misery of having to relive the death of loved ones because of Congress and Bush are not quick to forgive. It's been a very painful week as I review the decision we made with my father.

[Greylyn58]

36. My family went through this painful experience

in 1994. My Uncle(mom's only brother) was out playing golf one moment then became extremely ill and was rushed to the hospital where he underwent emergency gall-bladder surgery. Just after the surgery was finished, he suffered a massive stroke which rendered him brain-dead.

When our family made the very painful decision to remove his life-support, we knew that there wasn't anything else that could be done. It was the last loving act we could do for him.

I always remember that scene from "Steele Magnolias" The family sitting around the bed listening to the machines wind down after everything is shut off. It's painful for you and no one should intrude on that. Not the state, not the courts and certainly not our freaking Federal government.

That's why this insane mess in Florida just makes my blood boil. This should have been a private matter for the family and should never have reached the status it has.

[moobu2]

37. Linda MacDonald's personal story

about agreeing not to have a feeding tube started when her husband was dying.

Death is the veil that those who live call life
By Linda MacDonald Glenn
End-of-life issues brought me into the field of bioethics. I lost my first husband, Jack MacDonald, to cancer in 1984. He died after a long struggle that led ultimately to the question of whether to insert a feeding tube to prolong his life. Jack's chemotherapy had caused nausea, mouth sores, and esophageal ulcers and his oncologist had ordered a feeding tube. As I sat by Jack's bedside while the surgeon discussed the procedure, my husband start to cry. "Please no more . . . let me go," he pleaded.
Stunned, I didn't know what to say. Jack took my hand, grasped it and repeatedly said, "Please no feeding tubes, no more tubes . . . no more." He paused, rested a moment, then smiled (as if he knew what I was thinking) and said, "And if you wait until I'm unconscious to put one in, I swear I will come back after I've died and haunt you for doing that." I cried and laughed at the same time and promised I would never do that to him.
I loved Jack and I did not want to let him go, but I did not want to see him suffer any more. Jack had realized the fight was over long before I did; he tried to reassure me that he wasn't frightened and that he wasn't in any pain, and I shouldn't worry. Ultimately, I honoured his wishes; but it was, without a doubt, one of the most difficult decisions of my life. A few weeks later, Jack slipped into unconsciousness and died quietly, peacefully, on Feb. 8, 1984, at 6:33 p.m.
Of course, I sympathize with Michael Schiavo and his decision to remove the feeding tube of his wife Terri, who has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years. Maybe, because I'm approaching the half-century mark, I seem be to facing increasingly more end-of-life issues.
I believe we are born so that we can learn life's lessons and help one another to grow. When we have learned all we can on this Earth, and served our purpose, we return to God (or, if you prefer, to the Cosmos, Eternity, the Universe, the Multi-verse, Everything-ness). One of my favourite authors, Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh, writes that we are afraid to die because we are afraid we will become nothing when we die. But rather than seeing death as an end to life, we should see our lives as a temporary manifestation, like a parentheses in a sentence that is eternity, or a wave that's part of the larger ocean. Death can teach us valuable lessons about impermanence and the interconnectedness of all things.

Link to the article

[KharmaTrain]

39. Reliving My Decision

Shame on the corporate media for taking me and millions of others down a road we didn't want to go. My case, like others, is one of having to sign DNRs on my parents and pulling my mother's tube to relieve her discomfort and enable her to have a death with dignity.

The saving grace is for all the times I've revisited this...and all the decisions and other events that went on, I am more convince than ever I did the right, moral thing...and followed through on my parent's wishes (specified in an Advanced DNR...if there's a moral to this story, everyone should now have one to avoid this fiasco from happening to you or a loved one).

I can't thank-you enough for your thoughtful post. Our society's wierd fascination/fear of death and most people's ignorance on this very natural subject can create a lot of undue stress and trauma when a similar situation fall on them.

Hospice professionals as well as excellent doctors, RPNs and residents who guided me through the processes and gave me a special appreciation for the very difficult job they do...facing the dying and the grieving 24/7. This story is more about the living and our own ability to cope with our own inner feelings on this issue...and in some people's cases, a lifetime of religious dogma and other preconcieved notions that made this issue so emotional.

Peace

[Patiod]

40. All DUers: If this story has spoken to you, consider volunteering

These agonizing end-of-life issues, seeing elderly relatives begging to be "let go" and not tied to machines (and tied to machines anyway) propelled me to volunteering for hospice for several years.

Best thing I've ever done - far more important and rewarding than my paid work, which has taken me away from it for now (patient's families need to rely on you - you can't say "sorry I'm out of town all next week").

If these issues have spoken to you, and you feel called to help, you may wish to investigage volunteering with your local hospice. It mostly involves simply being with patients while caregivers go to church, to a family event, or even to the hairdressers. No RN experience required.

Many of the patients are unconscious, but many are not, and they're frightened to be alone. No need to really do anything for them - they're deeply appreciative of you just being there. Even for those who are unconscious, you are doing a great service for their caregiver. Sometimes your hour or two at the bedside is the ONLY chance they have to get out all week.

[oneighty]

41. My very own story

I was long ago a Hyberbaric Technician in a hospital. Often we would have patients on respirators. I remember thinking how unpleasant that must be. Soon I learned first hand.

I reported to a VA hospital in respiratory distress. The doctors gave me a shot of something and said if this does not bring you out of it you will have to be intubated.

I put the feeding tube into my nose and down my throat by myself.It was many days later when I woke to the hissing/pumping of the respirator breathing for me. I knew immediately what that was and after a few minutes of fighting it I was OK. My hands and feet were tied down. Tubes were inserted here and there. There was a drip going into the back of my hand. The third and final anti-biotic dripped there into the back side of my hand. The pain of each drip was like a cigarette burn.

Later I learned my body had been unresponsive to stimuli. Antibiotics were not working. My heart was not functioning properly. A pacemaker was considered as was death.

I drifted in and out of awareness for another week or so. One day I woke and all of my family stood around me. I thought "Oh shit". Several more days passed by.

One morning they struggled me off of the bed/cart and onto a chair. A large man stood in front of me saying he was going to remove the intubation. In the back ground I heard a voice question as to whether or not I would be able to breathe on my own.

The tube came out with a great "whoosh" followed by uncontrolled coughing on my part. I was able to take shallow breaths of oxygen enriched air. The Nurse brought a cup of hot brown broth smelling and tasting like a dead cow might smell in the hot sun. Later I was allowed coffee. Later soft foods. I weighed ninety pounds.

I have never fully recovered from the damages of the infection that put me into that situation. Never returned to work.

In my lucid moments of those days I wished someone would kill me.

Really I did.

180

[Bouncy Ball]

60. Wow 180, I am so sorry you went through that.

:hug:

[NNN0LHI]

44. Mrs. Schiavo is going to die, just as all of us will some day...

...but this thread is NOT going to die as long as I am a member of DU. Thank you for posting this mondo joe. You made me really do some thinking today. Take care and all the best to you and yours.

Don

[mondo joe]

45. Thanks Don. It just broke my heart to see so many posters sharing

their personal stories only to see them essentially called murderers elsewhere.

[NNN0LHI]

46. No problem mondo joe. You are more than welcome, Sir. And kick it

:kick:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

47. kick

I'm gone for a while. Keep it kicked.

Happy Easter to all!

[NNN0LHI]

49. .

[Zhade]

50. People who don't grasp the fact that her personality is long gone...

...are not intelligent enough to understand that their inaccurate slurs attack good DUers who have faced this difficult situation themselves.

They don't get it, and I think most of them don't WANT to get it. They'd rather argue that THEIR beliefs supercede Terri's (or anyone in that position) wishes.

They tend to be more conservative, and thus more open to letting people be controlled. Perhaps not coincidentally, they tend to be members of conservative, orthodox religions.

Your sentiment is honorable, but it's unlikely to reach them. I applaud your effort, though.

[goodboy]

51. SEE THIS THREAD ABOUT MY MOM:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3321086

[mondo joe]

58. Goodboy, thanks for the link. I wanted to include that in my initial

post here but I just couldn't find the thread.

[goodboy]

62. You got it Joe.

[BrklynLiberal]

52. Thank you MJ for posting this thread. It means a lot to those of us who

have had to go thru making this kind of decision, and do not want to be made to feel like we were "murdering" our loved one or that we did not do everything that we could have or should have done for them.
These decisions are private, and should include only family and physician. No one else.
I am hopeful that these postings will enlighten some who have not been able to separate their own emotional bias from the reality of this situation.

[NNN0LHI]

53. .

[NNN0LHI]

54. .

[NNN0LHI]

55. .

[hlthe2b]

56. kick

[deadparrot]

57. Thank you for posting this.

I'm sure there are pro-tube people who have been in similar situations, but there are huge numbers of anti-tube people who have, also.

And it is rude, unfair, and ignorant to, in effect, call these people murderers.

[Skittles]

59. twenty years ago today

it ws the day after my dad shot himself in the head - he lived for six days. Cannot IMAGINE if a freaking politician had decided to weigh in on it.

[NNN0LHI]

61. kick

[luvLLB]

63. Thanks, again, for posting this... if more people were educated

about this subject, we all would be better off.