Dean says Gephardt "attacked" him. Deanies say Edwards 'ran his mouth"

[AP]

about Dean's comment about talking about race to white audiences.

That Dean is getting unfairly attacked seems to be a new theme. You know why?

Well, it should sound familiar. It was a Bush strategy in 2000.

First, does this sound like an attack?

"Howard Dean actually agreed with the Gingrich Republicans,"
Gephardt told a union audience.

"It was in this period when Gingrich said Republicans wouldn't
immediately kill Medicare. Instead, they would let it wither on the
vine," Gephardt said. "And it was also during this time that Howard
Dean, as chairman of the National Governors Association, was
supporting Republican efforts to scale back Medicare."

When you're on top in the polls, you have to accept the fact that the other canidates are going to have to contrast their positions with yours where those positions are different. It sounds to me that Gephardt is saying to people that Dean's position should sound familiar...it was one the Republicans really pushed for enthusiastically. I think it's a fair comment.

What do you do if you're Dean? Well, you can't argue with the truth, so you argue that bringing up the truth is an attack, and that others should be warry of anyone who attacks. It deflects attention from the point Gephardt is making, and makes Gephardt seem to have some personality flaw.

Hello. That's exactly what Bush did to Gore. This was only three years ago. Remember?

It's also quite amazing that Dean would go around being angry about Bush and his fellow democrats and then act like anyone else who does this has a problem.

So, read this whole article...http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/6756342.htm ...and ponder why Mike Glover of the AP is so helpful in recasting people confronting Dean's record and his errors as attacking Dean. Notice how the spin is frontloaded in this article (Dean's campaign's comments are forgrounded, and the reporter establishes that he believes these are 'attacks', and the facts, other than Gephardt's quote, are in the bottom of the article).

I ask again, does anyone think Gephardt is "attacking", or is he comparing and contrasting Dean's philosophy with his own?

[newsguyatl]

1. yawn

you're pathetic...


on edit: by the way, why don't you go campaign for your man, he really needs the help

[KittyWampus]

YEAH AP, You're Either With Dean

or you are an unpatriotic, knuckle dragging, GOP enabling TRAITOR to the cause!

:)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. Touche.

:)

[dave29]

2. um, have you researched the issue for context?

and how would you respond if a friend compared you to Newt Gingrich?

[AP]

4. If I actually advocated something that Newt Gingrich was for,

I'd probably say, "you and all your attacks prove that you have a serious personality disorder" so to deflect attention from the facts and to discredit the person citing the facts.

I learned that from Bush 2000.

[blm]

41. This is how Dems react to being called "Bushlite" by Dean.

But, it seems Dean is applauded for throwing all his punches.

Did you think no one would hit back?

[tjdee]

3. "I can't wait for those four guys from Congress to come up here--"

"I can't wait for those four guys from Congress to come up here and explain to us why they wanted to raise your property taxes after they supported a tax cut for the wealthiest people in America"

Is that an attack? I'd like to get it clear in my head who is "resort<ing> to the politics of the past by engaging in name-calling, guilt by association and scare tactics", and who is just telling the truth and running a regular political campaign.

I will say that I'm experiencing severe Yalie fatigue, all around.

[BrewCrew]

7. so would he cut medicare?

Because of trade stances, Gephardt is my guy, but I really like Dean. The thing I don't get though is his response. It has nothing to do with the issue that Gephardt was raising.

Have you guys read the Gephardt speech?

http://www.dickgephardt2004.com/plugin/template/gephardt/*/1929

I'm more alarmed by Dean's harsh words toward medicare. He called it "the worst federal program ever" and advocated cutting medicare, and social security to balance the budget.

I personally disagree with this. As Democrats those are programs we just don't touch. What I would like to hear from Dean is that these programs are off the table and that he won't cut them if elected. So Dean backed the Gingrich side in 1995. Although I disagree, I have no problem with that. Thats the past. Our future is at stake and Democrats don't advocate cutting these programs.

Seriously, this should be a real policy discussion. Isn't that what DU is for? Do we cut medicare and SS to balance the budget. I so no, but if 4 more years of * we might have to? I think Gephardt was just pointing out a policy position between the two men?

[AP]

10. "Why are you attacking Dean"

Trippi might ask you.

And my point is, yes, answer those questions. Don't tell me you think your guy is being attacked. You're ahead in the polls. You think people aren't going to compare and contrast positions to yours.

It's the people who like Dean who Gephardt is trying to get in his camp. Gephardt has every right to tell them what he thinks Dean stands for (so long as his claims are based on fact).

[tjdee]

12. I wonder if we'll ever find out.

I wonder if there are any Dean supporters willing to take that up?

Anyone know what he is saying now? Yes, I did go to his site, didn't see any mention of Medicare.

[Karmadillo]

59. I can't get your link to work. Did Dean really call Medicare "the worst

federal program ever?" If so, is there a workable link somewhere to confirm it? Thanks.

[Karmadillo]

60. Never mind. It's in the link at the bottom of AP's original post. If

Gephardt quoted him accurately, Dean said Medicare was "one of the worst things to ever happen."

[PurityOfEssence]

23. Splendid example!

In this bit of schoolyard bravado, Dean was insulting the Democratic Senators, who, when they knew they couldn't defeat a huge tax cut, tried to scale it back to half and at least save something. This was a dogged rear-guard action by vigorous opponents to tax cuts who had this tactic turned against them by the Doctor by his misrepresenting it. Dean's statement was designed to make anyone not intimately aware of their fight think that they were operatives of the administration sucking up to his tax cut by voting for it. Let's just say...boo.

The four Dem Senators fight vigorously against a tax cut, know they're losing, and try to at least pull out some sort of reduction to the damage, and they're painted as tax-cutting creeps.

[AP]

25. And if Dean doesn't get the nomination, and NH votes for Bush

because the Democrat's base remembers Dean's comment that the Democratic canidate was working with Bush on the tax cuts and doesn't come out to vote for the nominee, do we then look to Dean for an appology?

[DemBones DemBones]

46. Well said. Dean has the advantage of not having been in

Congress, where he would have a voting record to be looked at. His defenders at DU show little interest in examining his record as Vermont's governor, either. It's a crazy political race where a candidate's record isn't to be looked at. In fact, no matter whose record is examined, there's about a 99.9% chance of finding things you don't like. Sometimes, though, there is a reasonable explanation for a "bad" action , as with the senators having fought to get the best bill they could out of a bad piece of legislation that the opposition party had the votes to pass.

[imhotep]

5. I may be mistaken

but Republicans don't have a monopoly on playing politics.

[AP]

9. Do you like this tactic? Are you comfortable supporting a guy

who can't defend himself on the facts and has to rely on this kind of tactic.

Do you wonder why a centrist Democratic Governor looked favorably on an element of the Contract on America? Maybe he has a good reason. He should explain. Maybe he doesn't have a good reason. We should know that too.

I don't care to hear Trippi's characterization of Gephardt's personality (I can draw my own conclusions about a candidates tone of voice). I do care to know if there's a rebuttal for the point Gephardt made. I'd like to know what my candidate stands for.

Note that Bush didn't really win with this tactic. More people voted for Gore. And I don't think the Democrat is going to be able to count on any assists from the SC-5 if their campaign tactics fall flat.

[sangh0]

6. You don't have to go back to 2000 for an example

Whenever Bush* is attacked by Dems, they ALWAYS says "it's another Democratic partisan attack"

[Cheswick2.0]

11. very good post AP

I agree that Dean is trying to deflect attention from taking reponsibility for his previous postions.

[liberalnurse]

13. All this slamming is powerless and meaningless....

The President doesn't write or pass the legislation, Congress does that job. It all has to run the gauntlet to be changed......

This is just road rage of a Friday afternoon.

The original poster may wish to concider.

[sangh0]

20. Unless Dean does the slamming

Then it's "straight talk"

Unless he changes his mind. Then it's "flexibility"

[blm]

22. or unless Dean compromises with the Republicans

then it is pragmatism.

[Kahuna]

52. And wasn't "pragmatism" a bad word around here..

not too long ago....say, before Dean used the word? I remember being attacked by the same people who now support Dean for saying that Democrats need to be "pragmatic." Their "agility" never ceases to amaze me.

[lindashaw]

14. Oh, oh, this is one of "those threads." Bye-bye.

[TLM]

15. Of course it was an attack....

Gephardt is trying to imply Dean is a Newt republican because Dean supported some medicare reforms, at the same time Gingrinch and his crew were trying to use medicare reform, which a lot fo folks supported, as a cover to put forth plans to destroy medicare.

If Gephardt wants to play that game, perhaps he can explain his support for the defense of marriage act? Following the logic of this attack on Dean, I guess Gephardt's support of the DMA means that he hates gays along with Fread Phelps of godhatesfags.com, who was also a big supporter of the defense of marriage act.

[AP]

17. The point is...

that Trippi should respond to the accusations, rather than deflect attention from the accusations by making it sound like Gephardt has a Picks Syndrome or rabbies, or some personality flaw.

You know, I probably wouldn't have been reminded of Bush 2000 if Trippi had called them attacks, and then addressed the "attacks'. Like, if he said that "Dean's problem at that time with medicare was X. Gephardt should have known the contect, but he chose to attack instead."

However, when you just call it an attack and fail to address the subject matter...well, that's what Bush did, and I think it might have turned off some people.

[MGKrebs]

16. There is no shortage of information on Dean's positions.

It's not like they don't have policy plans, or are evading issues.

If Trippi and those guys quickly respond to a percieved attack with a harsh remark, fine. That seems to be the policy, and all the other candidates know that by now. If they want to try to bait the Dean camp, they shouldn't be surprised by the response. If Dean needs to make further statements to clarify the position, then I am confident he will get around to it. Maybe in the next hour or two even.

Every hour, every day, somebody somewhere finds something in Deans record or something he said that does not meet some idealistic vision of a candidate. Part of the game. It's happening to all the other candidates right now, too. Dean's just getting a little more attention.

If a 'spat" like this continues, and is inflamed further by Dean, then yeah, I would probably begin to have a problem. But with every comment, gesture, and personal hygiene habit under this kind of immediate scrutiny, I'm not too concerned.

[PurityOfEssence]

29. It IS the measure of a person, isn't it Maynard?

One of the reasons I like long primary seasons so much is that it shows how people deal with these things. The measure of character shines through in moments of crisis and in moments of triumph.

The mix of talents it takes to be a good President are varied and rare, and many of them are personality/character issues. Everyone takes hits, and in a long season, one's relative position often changes a lot; what worked as an underdog often doesn't as a pack-leader. What's needed in a President is someone who can equally navigate both and all the waters between.

Supporters often take on characteristics of their candidates, and generally shared many to start with. Seeing them in action is very informative and important. When the whole thing's done, it's best that the one with the best balance of sense, ethics, strength and likeablity wins.

I was annoyed by the foreshortened primary season, but everyone's seemed to compensate for that as much as possible: we're already in it.

As a dispassionate student of humanity, there are some truly fascinating dynamics developing.

[Woodstock]

18. It's spelled P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S

Look it up.

They are playing at politics. They are politicians. Just because you like Edwards and don't like Dean, that doesn't mean both can't play the game. And it just comes off as more - you said it - POLITICS - when you act like only your guy can play the game.

Oh, and the bringing in of Gephardt and seemingly coming to his rescue in an attempt to appear reasonable (and not just playing politics to advance your guy, Edwards) was also easily seen through.

[AP]

19. Then call what I'm doing politics. I'm calling Dean on his strategy

and I'm asking for answers to the questions Gephardt asked rather than assessments of his personality.

[Woodstock]

21. The implication that Dean is like Gingrich

isn't something that deserves addressing.

[AP]

24. It wasn't a random 'you're worse than Hitler" comment. Gephardt

apparently noted that Dean shared with Gingrich an attitude toward health care at a time when this was a significant subject of debate.

How many things were in the contract on america? 20 or thirty policy statements maybe. Any Democrat who agreed with one of those statements probably shouldn't be surprised if the labor candidate calls him or her on that point. When the link is as direct as "Policy Position" -> "Policy position is in Contract on America" (which was, incidentally a product of the Cato Institute, to which Dean gave a speach in which he said "you guys should really like me") -> Newt Gingrich.

This is a pretty direct link.

[blm]

43. like Dean saying the others were like Bush?

The STOP signs are now up on that one way street.

[Eloriel]

27. You're in the wrong place to ask for answers

Either go research his website or post your demands on the blog.

Here ya go:

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/

If you don't find a comparison to Gingrich an attack, I'm sure there's nothing *I* or any Dean supporter could say to assuage your demands.

Eloriel

[sangh0]

30. But it's true!!

so it's not an attack. It's "straight talk", right?

[AP]

31. Eloriel, what interest me most is the campainging part of this.

Campaigning is basically trying to imbed a concise message in the minds of as many people (distracted by thousands of other pieces of information) as possible about who you are and who yor opponents are so that on the first Tuesday in Nov 2004, somebody is encouraged to pull a lever or touch a screen or whatever in your favor.

Yeah, I could go look on the website (or some DU'er could defend Dean with the facts). But what I'm more interested in is how they're campaigning on this. Why didn't Trippi bring up the facts? Why have I read dozens of posts from the Deanies trying to characterize Dean as being attacked (when he's only being confronted with facts, many of which he made relevant by introducing them into the debate in the first place)?

[tjdee]

32. I *went* to the site.

I didn't see anything about Medicare, and so far we aren't getting a Dean supporter to address this on the actual facts of the charge. It's hard to go to his site to get information as Eloriel suggests, if the information is not there. I have no idea whether his position has changed or not, or what.

And non-supporters may not like Dean, but if he gets the nomination he's going to have to be our guy, so we have a vested interest in this like everyone else.

Apparently, this is true information. That is why Dean is going on the attack instead of, as you said, countering with facts from Dean's record.

Clever, sure.

[haymaker]

26. Same shit, very next day.

:boring:

[AP]

28. It's more fun when you tell me why you think my theory is wrong

and then I try to defend my theory.

[Woodstock]

33. Then state your theory without hyperbole

You might get better answers with reasonable questions.

[AP]

34. I think I stated my theory pretty clearly in post 0, and I like

some of the responses I'm getting.

[haymaker]

35. A desperate Gephardt cutting and pasting

eight year old comments from Dean in a pathetic attempt to scare the elderly in Iowa is positively Rovian. This nit-pick shit is gonna kill us.

What about this theory: Myself and a GREAT many independents and liberal Democrats wouldn't walk across the street to cast a vote for Gephardt. Wouldn't go from my bedroom to the kitchen to vote for Lieberman. Kerry, Edwards, and Graham might get our votes, but I wouldn't bet the house. Kucinich, Sharpton, and Mosely-Braun would be refreshing, but the Dem brain trust is too busy trying to be Rove lite to give them the time of day.

So keep on believing that destroying Dean won't hand it all over to the Bushistas, because it will, for sure.

Why on god's green earth would a liberal independent want to reward the panty waste Democrats with the presidency? They have done nothing but suck Bush's dick (Kucinich excluded) all the way up until Dean started to kick his ass and gain some momentum. Ohhh, now they are disagreeing with Shrub. About fucking time. And then they start doing Bush the favor of bleeding Dean to death 13 months before the election.

Fucking, candy-assed pricks. They deserve four more years of Bush.

[AP]

36. Gephardt is trying to get Dean to tell people how business friendly he is

because it isn't yet clear.

This fits into a bigger theme which, I suspect, will be a big weakness for Dean -- he's not going to come across as the class traitor that FDR was. He might turn out to be a good friend to wall street and a bad friend to the middle class.

It's extremely important to get these facts out. If Dean is to get the nomination, he's going to have to confront this stuff (or run the risk of Bush saying, hey, this guy isn't so different from me than he thinks he is).

[haymaker]

39. "isn't so different from Bush"

I'm worried about that too. NOT.

"Being friendly to business" is a long, dark, and winding, currupt ass road from where Bush is.

I just want perspective. If the Dems destroy Dean, they can kiss the White House good-bye. I'm not saying he is the only one who can win, but he has a fairly large chunk of people off their asses and fighting the good fight. If he gets pecked to death by those Bush fellating punk ass bitches, then all the energy created by Dean will vanish. Guaranteed.

[DemBones DemBones]

50. In other words, if your guy Dean isn't the nominee, you'll take your

ball and go home. That's what I've long suspected of many Deanies.

[stickdog]

51. Except it's the DK voters who will go Green instead in large numbers.

But thanks for playing.

[DemBones DemBones]

54. There's no indication of that, as you must be aware.

But Deanies don't seem to care much about facts. That is how they are able to support Howard, after all: by ignoring facts.

[MGKrebs]

37. Well here is your question from the original post:

"I ask again, does anyone think Gephardt is "attacking", or is he comparing and contrasting Dean's philosophy with his own?"

What do you want? An opinion poll?
My answer to your question is: Both. And I have no problem with it.

Surely there are other, less provocative, ways for Gephardt to bring this up rather than making a comparison to Gingrich. He chose this path. Bring it on, Gep. Dean can take care of himself.

[Upfront]

38. Yawn

[JI7]

40. don't see problem with edwards' comments

all he said was that dean was wrong when he said he "was the ONLY" candidate who talks race to white audiences. what edwards said was true.

[janekat]

42. Great - we sound like a bunch of 6th graders n/t

[BansheeBarbie]

44. Some Of Us Sound Like We Want Answers

About the various candidates' positions and records.

What is Dean on the record as saying in regards to Medicare?
What is his official position now?
Has his position changed?

These are valid questions which any MATURE, well informed citizen would want to ask when considering Dean as Presidential material.

Dontcha think?

Gephardt very effectively found a chink in Dean's armour. That is what politicians do when competing for the same chair.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. Exactly so. Give us answers. Dean has sometimes given

conflicting statements on issues. How can we know which is his position unless we ask for clarification?

He likes being the front runner but apparently dislikes the increased scrutiny that comes with being first. His supporters, at least, don't want him questioned. Instead of giving answers, they've come to this thread and posted "responses" such as "Yawn" and "Same old shit." Eloriel says for us to look at Dean's website for answers. I've tried looking at his site to find specific information and not found it helpful.

I'm not casting any "faith-based" votes. By which I mean, I see no reason to vote for someone in the hope that he'll actually do good things, without some definite promises to hold him to.

[poskonig]

45. "Dean is Hitler; why don't you respond to my 'theory' ?"

Gee, let me think really hard about this one.

Some of the Dean bashing around here is extremely dumb.

[DemBones DemBones]

55. Godwin's Law defeats Dean supporters again.

[KaraokeKarlton]

47. Yes, Dean wants some Medicare reforms

Do a search on google for medicare testimony with his name. He's been pushing for years to get reforms that allow the elderly and disabled to get care at home instead of being stuck in nursing homes whenever possible. It's better for the person and it's cheaper. I don't see that as a bad thing.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. here's a link

http://aging.senate.gov/events/hr71hd.htm

[stickdog]

48. OH MY GOD!!!

Now Dean is saying that attacks are attacks!

What will that evil man do next???

[AP]

58. Incidentally, this encapsulates part of the issue here.

You're doing with sarcasm what Trippi's comment is trying to do towards Gephardt.

You have a real, substantive issue -- how does the candidate feel about Medicare? Does the candidate have the same big business friendly position as Gingrich? (And, like I said elsewhere, the Contract on America was drafted with the financial support of the Cato Institute, an big business friendly organization which wants to eliminated the referees -- the government -- so that consumers and corporations can duke it out in the marketplace, with strongest party winning, and the Cato Inst is an organization to whom Dean said "you people should really like me.)

Rather than address the substantive issue, the response is, "look at the personalities." I'm not saying anything about Dean's uh, evilness or saintliness, which is largely irrelevant, just as it's irrelevant to pretend that the issue is that Gephardt is a petulant attacker, or that Dean is the innocent victim of an unwarranted petulant attack. Personalities and feelings aren't the issues. Policy is the issue. What I wanted to do with this thread is point out how the Dean team is using the campaign tactic of avoiding discussion of the issue by pretending this was about personality. They're trying to make it seem like it's a personality defect to ask hard questions.

[RetroLounge]

56. Wait a minute, I thought Dean was too liberal for you?

Now he's a Newt repub too?

So how's your guy doing in the polls? Are you helping him any?

Didn't think so...

Yawn...

[AP]

57. On a personal note, where'd you get the impression that Dean was too

liberal for me?

My biggest problem with Dean is that he seems like a guy who's too conservative on the issues that really matter (ie, on tilting the balance back in favor of the middle class, rather than big corporations), that he pretended he was super liberal to develop a base, who misleadingly attacked other dems to do this (which will make it expensive for them to correct the misimpression if Dean doesn't get the nomination), and who now has to make a move back to the center where he originally came from because he actually has a chance of getting the nomination, thus creating huge confusion about his persona which will be unbelievably easy to exploit by the Republicans if he does get the nomination.