How many people noticed there was a terrorist attack in the U.S.?

[Walt Starr]

It happened last night in an affluent neighborhood in Chicago.

Oh, my bad. The terrorists were more than likely white Christian American citizens and not Arabic Muslim men, so nobody will call this particular terrorist attack a terrorist attack.

Unfortunately, that makes little difference to the two victims who died, or the real target of the attack, a Federal Judge who does IP cases.

When will we hear the "T" word brought out by the administration about this attack?

I say, since the terrorists are most likely white Christians, we'll never hear the "T" word. Quite frankly, most Americans stand a bigger chance of being killed by this brand of terrorist than the radical Islamic terrorists depicted by the media.

Just another day in *'s Amerikkka.

[WLKjr]

1. fill me in

what happend?

[Cuban_Liberal]

3. This:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=150x5145

[realFedUp]

80. Thought Bank of America "losing" its data tapes was big

haven't heard much about the stolen
data tapes with financial and personal
information on them for more than 1.2 million
people including US Senators....

now if that ain't a huge terrorist "crime",
I don't know what is.

[Stop_the_War]

2. link?

[Cuban_Liberal]

4. Link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=150x5145

[Stop_the_War]

6. OMG this is horrible...

[Cuban_Liberal]

10. Yep, it sure is.

x(

[Walt Starr]

5. See post 3 n/t

[fooj]

7. Excellent point, Walt. I agree with your assertion!

[Sympleesmshn]

8. We always talk about group outside the country

But we have groups like this in the US. There is going to be a Neo-Nazi rally at Yorktown this summer and it dose not make the area news(found out from a Jewish friend). While this group may not do bombing and the such, they are a prime group to start doing it. They have a cause, they want it to happen, and they aren't afraid of the US government...

[Walt Starr]

11. The attack last night was just the beginning from these terrorists

and it's going to get uglier.

But still, nobody will say the "T" word about it.

[Sympleesmshn]

13. My father has always said a big attack would happen again

But from within, to from an Arab group. It scares the heck out of me...

[Walt Starr]

14. These assholes are Illinois Nazis!

Not anything even remotely resembling Arabs or Muslims!

[DontBlameMe]

21. I hate Illinois Nazis.

[Sympleesmshn]

23. Me too!!

[Ellen Forradalom]

32. I loathe Nazis in general.

As an Illinoisan, I particularly don't like them in my back yard.

[Gabi Hayes]

35. I hate Illinoise!

sometimes

I was born here; lived here most of my life

so there

[paineinthearse]

88. * minions

From Blues Brothers, but could the real ones be that far away?

[Us vs Them]

19. Report it to Homeland Security

oh the irony.

[Sympleesmshn]

25. Well it had to be approved by the Park Rangers...

They "had" to approve it, since it will be on the battlefield which is a national park... they have approved an anti-Nazi rally on the other side of the field that day, so I will keep you posted...

[Just Me]

37. Huh?

:shrug:

[Sympleesmshn]

39. the Neo-nazi rally

look at one of my posts above (#8)...

[Cleita]

9. Yes, there is no difference. n/t

[two gun sid]

12. They're not terrorists. They're Bush voters n/t

[Windy]

24. true...they are

[Just Me]

38. Their extremism has been "appeased" by the right wing.

Anyone who fails to acknowledge the fact that these extremists are being emboldened by the likes of Rove, BFEE, fundies and the corporocrats,...is simply failing to accept the law of consequences.

[Goldmund]

15. It fits the dictionary definition,

but not the political.

And in *'s Amerika, words have political definitions.

[Walt Starr]

16. It's a difficult thing or a political animal to call his base

"Terrorists".

[sleipnir]

17. Illinois Nazis....I hate Illinois Nazis

Seriously though, enough of the gallows humor.

We need to stop terrorism on all levels. I'm sick and tired of these racist filthbags getting a free pass, almost as bad as the violent anti-abortion terrorists. Will no one stop them?!

[Gabi Hayes]

34. WTF? Is that Henry Gibson? I checked the photo properties

it's from Blues Brothers, right?

was he in that? I don't remember that part, but that's one compelling shot.

Very compelling....creepily so

"Drive Safely. Prevent Fires"???? what's up with that? did they ever really have that on the sign?

[sleipnir]

41. Correct, it is Gibson and the Blues Brothers

It's quite a frightening shot.

He's scariest line always creeped me out:

"I want all party members in the tri state district to monitor the city, county and state police on their CBs. Mr. Blues is gonna fuck up, and when he does, he better pray the police get to him before we do.

It's a screen capture from BB, so I guess Wrigley Field at one time had a sign that said drive safe, prevent fires. Not really sure how the two are related....

[Just Me]

18. There's 23 times more acts of homegrown terror than "alien" terror.

But, oh, please, don't let that little factual gem stop anyone from jumping on board the war train. :eyes:

[KT2000]

20. Good Point

aren't environmentalists called "eco-terrorists" at the drop of a hat?

All the murders committed by RW nuts should hereater be referred to as the terrorists they are.

[applegrove]

22. Yes that is horrible. Fundy nut-case with guns need to be stopped.

[Gabi Hayes]

26. Let's not forget the ANTHRAX attacks, hey?

It continually amazes me that the DEMS allow the pugs to get away with claiming that there haven't been any terra ist attacks since 911.

WTF about the ANTHRAX?

how would one characterize those?

huh?

[Walt Starr]

27. Yep domestic terrorism is ignored by these idiots

and it's a sad thing.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Doesn't make sense to me either

I guess those were "warnings"? :shrug:

[DARE to HOPE]

76. YES! Just WHO did the ANTHRAX killings?

Anthrax mailed to Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, several Democratic Senators including Leahy and Daschle, and editor Bob Stevens, whose "National Inquirer" was just about to print pictures of * and Victor Ashe.

[DARE to HOPE]

29. Not "Christian" even nominally...

...just read what Matt Hale's group writes about that "Jew based" religion.

They even called the Judge and her family "Jews" even though the couple met at Wheaton college and were heavily involved in their Episcopal church.

This is so frightening, for the whole Illinois community, and for the country. Too much like Iraq tonight (with the Saddam judge who was killed) or a "third world" country. If we cannot protect our judges, what does that say about our society's ability to have any order.

By all accounts, these people were salt of the earth, very giving, a very creative, and progressive, family.

Our prayers are with the Judge and their girls. This is absolutely shocking.

[Just Me]

40. Geez. That particular "serendipity" didn't hit me until your post.

Wow.

[Bridget Burke]

53. True. According to the ADL, they try to soft-pedal their beliefs...

Hale and the WCOTC also attack Christianity, characterizing it as a religion concocted by Jews that demonstrates their talents as "Master Mind-Manipulators" - Klassen's phrase in The White Man's Bible. Yet, despite Hale's vilification, he realizes that he must attract white Christians to strengthen his organization. Predictably, there is no mention of the group's contempt for Christianity in WCOTC's promotional materials.

www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Hale.asp?xpicked=2&item=6

Quite a few of these groups do preach a twisted Christianity. But he hates Jews, anyway.

[shreck]

78. They sound like

the mullas preaching hate against jews, typical.

[greatauntoftriplets]

30. I live slightly more than a mile away from where this happened.

Although I know the targets were deliberate and not random, it still makes me feel very uneasy.

[Catherine Vincent]

31. That's right.

I should email this thread to Malloy.

[alfredo]

33. Just noticed this

World Church of the Creator. Matt Hale's organization



Reminds me of something. I just can't put my finger on it.

[Walt Starr]

44. I'm trying to figure out what that reminds me of, too

Just can't quite put it together...

:evilgrin:

[alfredo]

62. Whatever it is, it looks

evil.

[hootinholler]

65. I think it's the

Halo over the crown. Those 2 symbols always make me oogie.

-Hoot

[tsuki]

82. Divine right...how the mighty have fallen.

[JanMichael]

36. Yep. Just like we harbor Orlando Bosch and his terrorist buddies.

We're being attacked by home grown terrorists and we harbor International Terrorists.

Oh well, the subtleties will likely never be shown, or be lost, to Jill 5-pack...

[journalist3072]

42. Heard on the news this evening

That some white supremicists groups were celebrating those awful murders...saying they don't feel sorry for the judge for her losses.

It's terrible. May God Bless that family.

[in_cog_ni_to]

43. The news tonight...I missed it, but they say they have solid evidence on

who committed the murders. Shall we place some bets?

Did you catch the news Walt?

[slaveplanet]

45. Sherman did- GANNON LINK

from Rense.....more.

http://rense.com/general63/dcwho.htm

Apparently problems were developing in subpoenaeing Jeff Gannon alias Johnny Gosch as to data on blowing the cover of Valerie Plame. Not in open court, the Special Prosecutor took up the federal grand jury problems reportedly with Judge Lefkow. Those working on the problem secretly were well aware that pulling on the whorehouse chain would bring in George W. Bush himself, as a federal criminally indicted defendant having committed treason directly using Gannon alias Gosch.

In the press, a neighbor of Judge Lefkow is commenting on the double murder, "I hope it does not involve anything on her docket, because if it does, then judges everywhere would be fearful."
Who if not the Bush White House and the Gestapo-like Homeland Security would want to put the "terrorist" fear into judges everywhere?
----that Judges have to follow orders in Hitler's America and protect bbthe head man, acting like a Dictator.

Of the 14 members of the House and Senate who are apparent "pals" of Escort Service operative Gannon alias Gosch, has been U.S. Senator Arlen Specter (R., Penn.). He is reportedly suffering from an erarly version of AIDS.

Cynics claim that if Specter got AIDS from Gannon alias Gosch, that it would be a suitable punishment. Specter in 1964 sat on the infamous Warren Commission and created the phantasy that became Warren Commission Exhibit 399. that supposed lone assassin Oswald shot a bullet found in pristine condition laying on a hospital cart in a hospital where President John F. Kennedy was pronounced dead. How did it do such damage to Governor Connally and the President and yet remain in perfect condition as a bullet?

[Walt Starr]

46. I doubt if anybody in the MSM will trot out the "T" word on this

even after the Nazis who did it are convicted!

[slaveplanet]

52. Would that be T

for Terrorist, or T for Treason

remember a Neo Nazi....Is still just a Nazi

[Walt Starr]

56. "T" for Terrorist n/t

[Blue_Roses]

47. this is so sad

my heart goes out to her and her family:(

[Binka]

51. She And Her Murdered Husband Have Four Children

Let's see how serious Homeland Security is about this TERRORIST MURDER. I'm curious as to why she wasn't given some protection, she had received numerous death threats even after Hale was sent to jail.

Something does not add up here. Tinfoil on. OK. IMHO there is a deeper and more insidious angle going on than just the white supremacists one, somebody bigger than Hale and his ilk wanted this judge dead. WHY?

[SmokingJacket]

48. If they're the white supremacist group, they're not Christians.

Really -- they hate Christians and actually claim to worship "the white race." :crazy:

But terrorists for sure, if they're committing acts of violent terror to create political intimidation.

But for Bushco, terrorist = Arab guy with a bomb.

[Walt Starr]

49. They claim theselves to be Christian

Who am I to argue with whatever they claim their religion is?

[SmokingJacket]

55. Matt Hale is the guy who was threatening Lefkow --

he was involved with a group called "World Church of the Creator," which was sued by another church with a similar name. My understanding is that Lefkow told Hale's group they had to change their name; they're now The Creativity Movement. Here's a bit on them from the Anti-Defamation League:

"Shortly thereafter Hale discovered Ben Klassen's Church of the Creator. Klassen, a one-time Florida state legislator who had drifted among far-right causes, formed the COTC in 1973 with the publication of a 511-page tome entitled Nature's Eternal Religion. The book was a call to "completely reject the Judeo-democratic-Marxist values of today and supplant them with new and basic values, of which race is the foundation." As his title indicates, Klassen believed that race had transcendent meaning; Christianity, by contrast, he disdained as a "suicidal religion." 1 "

and

"Hale and the WCOTC also attack Christianity, characterizing it as a religion concocted by Jews that demonstrates their talents as "Master Mind-Manipulators" - Klassen's phrase in The White Man's Bible. Yet, despite Hale's vilification, he realizes that he must attract white Christians to strengthen his organization. Predictably, there is no mention of the group's contempt for Christianity in WCOTC's promotional materials. "


http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Hale.asp?xpicked=2&item=6

[ProfessorGAC]

58. More Than Involved With Them

He IS the World Church of the Creator. He is the absolutely lowest form of scum. A disgusting blight on humanity, as are his braindead followers.
The Professor

[DARE to HOPE]

72. You know, I know everyone has a lot of respect for your opinion, BUT...

...isn't it clear to you by now that the evil Bush/Nazi gang, not to mention "white supremacists" have been/are STEALING the name "Christian," which is the diametric OPPOSITE of the evil they propose, in order to confuse the people, and do their wickedness with the sanction of purity?

Constantly saying things like "Who am I to argue with whatever they claim their religion is?" plays right into their hands!! Whenever I see you post this, what I see is that you are helping the Bush gang to destroy our country.

What is invisible to you, and to most of the country, it seems, is the community of real Christians feeding the hungry and doing good works in this country who are SLAMMED by your words every darn time. The Confessing Church of Germany in the 1930's went underground and worked at great personal risk, and costing many lives. And now few even know about them, or think they had anything to do with anything. And you let Hitler seize the moniker "Christian" even though he worshipped the occult, just like these guys!

When you say "who am I to argue" you may not be the one, alright. If you haven't had a spiritual day in your life, then you would not be the one. But anyone who has, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Native American, et al--KNOWS the ANTI-spiritual nature of these folks, and sees their wish to destroy us! (Look at the cry from Baghdad this week: "No Muslim or Christian would do this!" said the father of a bombing victim.)



BTW if it is true that Fitzgerald filed info about Gannon with Judge Lefkow (!)--then the intuition that I had last night when I heard the pleas of Matt Hale's parents on CNN (ie, WHY would Hale order these killings JUST BEFORE he is to be sentenced?!!)--the intuition that more is here than meets the eye is more than satisfied by the Rense report.

Sorry if I offended you, Walt. I imagine it is not ill intended, what you write. But it sure comes across quite aggressively, as in "I bite my thumb at you." Please think first.

[Walt Starr]

77. I disagree completely

I am in no position to judge somebody as not being the religion they claim.

As far as I'm concerned, Klansmen and Nazis are 100% Christian.

Offense taken.

[DARE to HOPE]

79. Uh--no, Walt.

In this case, it was the Christians (active in their Episcopalian church) who were KILLED (allegedly) by the Illinois Nazis.

[Walt Starr]

84. Christians have always killed Christians

Muslims kill Muslims, too.

Pagans used to kill other Pagans in the old days.

What's your point?

[slaveplanet]

83. It's nice to know

someone else Is asking that question- (ie, WHY would Hale order these killings JUST BEFORE he is to be sentenced?!!)

or at least thinking along those lines

[Walt Starr]

85. So that he could ask

"Why would I order this killing the day befoire my sentencing?"

[slaveplanet]

86. well now, that would be downright

stupid,and a tactic sure to fail knowing full well the entire media finger would be pointing his direction.

You can convince me that he is Evil, but you can't convince me that he's stupid.

sorry but I'll take Palast's advice on this one -always look for the news that they are not telling you about-

[slaveplanet]

87. N/T

[tolseq]

50. hmmm

nazi scum.......

peace

[Susang]

54. Revenge killing, it was an assassination, not a terrorist act

While I agree it was a horrible event, it was obviously done as an act of revenge against Judge Lefkow, probably due to her ruling against Matthew Hale.

A terrorist act is meant to coerce a society or government, not an individual person. No killing is going to stop the sentencing of Matthew Hale, this was done purely for revenge against one person. It was murder, not a terrorist act.

Unless you consider every mob hit ever made a terrorist act as well.

On edit: The actions of Benjamin Smith do qualify as a terrorist act. He shot random minorities he came across on the street of Chicago. He did not know any of them.

http://www.nbc5.com/news/4245762/detail.html?z=dp&dpswid=2265994&dppid=65192

[ProfessorGAC]

59. I Think This Does Too, Susang

While revenge was another motive, the message being sent is that nobody is safe from their reach. That's exactly what terrorists do to foment "change". They intimidate soceity into reliniquishing the constucts and the reliance upon them that make a civil society, civil.

I think there is more than just revenge here. Given my past research into these guys (remember these are the losers who held that rally in my small town), they have an agenda that extends beyond revenge. I'm just sure of it.
The Professor

[Susang]

61. I agree with your assessment of the groups and their overall agenda

But I cannot classify these specific murders as a terrorist act. To do that, you'd have to include all mob hits and assassinations in that category and I'm not really prepared to do that. Mob hits also send a message that no one is safe from their reach. What distinguishes terrorist attacks is their calculated but random nature. Like the activities of Benjamin Smith. These attacks were not random in any sense.

I guess what it boils down to is what you consider the definition of "terrorist act" to be. From my study of the subject, I don't consider this crime to fit the definition of terrorism. I realize that there are many different schools of thought on the matter, but seeing as the specific judge who convicted him was the target and her life was threatened by Matt Hale and his followers, as well as by others she had ruled against in the past; until we know exactly who killed her husband and mother, I don't see this as anything but a specific strike against the specific judge in order to exact revenge against her for her actions.

:hi:

[ProfessorGAC]

63. I Think I Need To Know The Who Of A Crime

If this is indeed, Hale's minions, then it's terrorism rooted in revenge. If it were purely a mob style revenge hit, i would completely agree. In that case it would be business, not personal and not societal. ("It's not personal Sonny. It's strictly business.")
The Professor

[Susang]

64. So, if it's Hale's people

It can't be "business"? Sorry if I sound dense, but she does not fall into any of the categories that they campaign against, so the only reason I can see for them to have gone after her and her family would be that she ruled against him. Business. That was why he solicited her murder in the first place, not for reasons of race or religion.

[ProfessorGAC]

66. I See Our Disconnect

I think the whole thing predates the contempt charge. Hale's people want to change the society through murder, intimidation and changing how the courts protect minorities.

The fact that this judge brought charges against Hale is a parallel path. If not this judge, someone else would have been the target. Remember he has been accused of plotting against judges before. There stated purpose includes stopping the courts from protecting the "filth".

Murder is part of their policy paper. Always has been. That's why i think their very existence is that of a terrorist organization. If you shared that base belief, i think you'd agree with my definition of this case. If you don't agree on the underlying premise, than we would disagree about the judge's family case.
The Professor

[Susang]

69. I still disagree on this particular case

He didn't murder a random judge's family, he chose a specific judge who had ruled against him. To me, that does not fit the definition of terrorism.

I don't believe that another judge would have been the target, unless that judge had been the specific judge that had ruled against Hale. He is due to be sentenced in a month and is certain to go to prison. I believe that to be reason for the timing of the murders. The judge was no longer being guarded and Hale, knowing that there was no way he would be able to change the outcome of his sentencing hearing, wanted to make a splash before he entered prison.

That or the Tyco guy did it. :D

[ProfessorGAC]

71. Fair Enough

I'm just going further back. They want to intimidate judges! That's part and parcel of their overall strategy.

This particular judge allowed a dual purpose slaying. But, they have OPENLY advocated taking out judges who make ruling with which they disagree.

You're right this was personal! But, it also fits their overall strategy. Their overall strategy is to terrorize and intimidate the judiciary into eliminating rulings that oppose their myopic cause.

These folks ARE terrorists. In my mind, there's no question of that. They may be recruiting the cretins of Illinois to their cause, but the leadership is SCARY!!! They aspire to foment change the way the Nazis did. Through terror and loathing.

In this particular case, the target was picked for secondary (IMO), but admittedly personal, reasons. Killing judges is part of the strategy. They just had two reasons this time.

So, while this might seem like a dodge, we can both be right about this one, even though we're taking opposite views.
The Professor

[ProfessorGAC]

57. Definitely Terrorism

The whole point was to intimidate and to distort the societal systems. That is the raison d'etre of terrorism.
The Professor

[Padraig18]

60. It was hard to miss, if you lived in Ilinois.

How incredibly shocking, disgusting and frightening!

[Dorian Gray]

67. On the news

yesterday they said that the suspect was being held as a terrorist right now. They were likening it to a terrible terrorist attack, actually.

I feel so sorry for the Judge. To walk in on that and to find your husband and mother murdered in such a way. It's horrific. If it's true that the Aryan Nation was responsible for this, I hope that they are tried as Terrorists because they are just as bad.

[B Calm]

68. Counting all the anthrax terror, how many terror attacks have there

been since 9-11?

[bamacrat]

70. You said it.

The "white christians" have caused more destruction and death to man kind and the world than any of the "terrorists."

[UdoKier]

73. Walt, I've had my disagreements with you...

But it's a great point you've made here. I hope more people catch on.

[fob]

74. I'm not sure how you've connected white christian Amerikans and Terrorism

It's not like there's a precedence or anything, I mean off the top of my head I can only think of;

That white guy in the tower in Texas shooting people

The BTK killer of recent capture

Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols of Oklahoma Feb Building infamy

The Atlanta Olympic games bomber

Eric Rudolph

Ted Bundy

Negroponte, North, Bosch and the other Latin America "specialists"

Charles Graner, Rummy, Abu Gonzalez, Lynndie England etc.

SEE, there's a woman and a Mexican(?)-Amerikan in that group, the theory is disproven!

/wish it WERE only satire

[DARE to HOPE]

75. Not Matt Hale at all, but the same old " * Body Count" IMHO

[DARE to HOPE]

81. Hey--one more thought...heard on the news tonight that...

February 28, the night of the Lefkow murders, is the 12th anniversary of the first day of the attack on Waco.

BUT--looked it up, and the same date is also the anniversary of Hitler seizing power in 1933.

Just makes one wonder again: WHO is trying to intimidate judges?