I ventured out to the suburbs this weekend...

[UdoKier]

I had a free movie pass and the kids wanted to see "Aliens of the Deep" in IMAX (a B+, by the way) , so we hopped into the old Ford Escort and began the 39-mile drive from San Francisco to the apparently all-brand-new bedroom community of Dublin. We got to the exit, Hacienda drive, and I didn't have to look for the theater because I could see the hulking structure with "Regal Cinemas" written on it from across the freeway.

Upon reaching the parking lot, I was taken aback by the fact that the parking lot for this theater in an outdoor shopping complex was HUGE. Several football fields, filled almost entirely with late-model SUVs. I finally found a spot to tuck my little car in between all the behemoths, and we started to go in. It was an uneventful day at the movies, but somehow, I felt so out of place here - all the clothes seemed so... trendy. All the mens' and boys' haircuts were so identical and short. We got inside and clutching my bag brought from home with drinks and little bags of cheetos (total cost = $2.75), I passed by the long lines of people queued up to by $4.95 popcorns and 3.95 buckets o' soda, and then we waited for the movie - first ones there, so we got great seats, and the movie was very cool - IN 3-D!

So, you ask, did my "no W" button cause some freeper encounter, or was my "Bush-beneath contempt" sticker scraped off while we were in the theater? Nope, no confrontation whatsoever. In fact I'm sure that most of the people out there were basically decent folks.

But being out there, in that little stucco island of cinema in that sea of SUV's, next to the OldNavyBurlingtonCoatFactory, with the Macaroni Grill and Olive Garden islands nearby, made me feel how acutely out of touch I am personally with the prevalent values of white middle class people in this country.

I saw around me people whose apparent primary function is to consume, consume, consume, and they seemed to do it dutifully. Later, they would go home to their brand-new McMansions so that the next morning, moms could put Lunchables and CapriSun in sons' bags, and drive them to school in the SUV. Homes out here (and anywhere in the bay area) cost a fortune. How the HELL do all these people afford $600K mortgages AND SUV's AND the weekly consumption ritual? I just don't get it...

And we headed back to the beautiful city of San Francisco, where everything is NOT new, or sanitary, and the people most certainly do not all look alike. Back to our little 2-bedroom MIL apartment, where we felt comfortable, and not so embarrassed at being unable to afford the binge of consumption all the others around us had been engaging in.

And now my wife is taking the kids to school - one, to the wonderful old converted gymnasium that serves as our son's daycare - they teach in English and Japanese, and the children there are from all walks of life.

The other goes to a great bilingual elementary school, again the focus being on Japanese.

I'm so happy for them that they are growing up here, where they won't be trained from day one to just eat burgers and fries and sugar-water - SF schools have banned it, and are now serving teriyaki chicken bowls and the like in the school lunches - and they can hopefully learn to be something more than just dutiful consumers.

I love the Bay Area - suburbs and all. I have no idea whether Dublin leans blue or red, but it is remarkable that the shopping complex we visited looked EXACTLY like the suburban shopping complexes we used to occasionally visit in Miami, which looked EXACTLY like the ones popping up in my hometown of El Paso. I'm not even trying to rail against it - I guess it's just a fact of life today, but I do find it remarkable that so many people still choose a lifestyle where everything seems so corporate and artificial.


I'm obviously not a writer, so I don't have a nice little bow to tie up this little bunch of observations - it was just another day when we happened to venture out a bit further from the city than we normally do. If Dublin is any indication, America's economic engine is still humming - at least for some people.

[enough]

1. San Fransisco, Miami, El Paso,

and suburban Philadelphia. I couldn't believe how identical what you are describing is to what is out there at the end of every freeway ramp here in eastern PA.

And they keep building MORE. Somebody must like them.

[GalleryGod]

7. Hear!Hear! Don't forget suburban Scottsdale!

I had the same experience when visiting last August; we went North of town to see Fahrenheit 9-1-1 ....to the land of SUV's and 5 buck popcorn! "America where have you gone...."

[Blue_Tires]

33. Atlanta

the epicenter of exurban sprawl

[RebelOne]

38. Yes, I know what you mean. I live northwest of Atlanta

in Woodstock. And the exurban sprawl has spread up here.

[murray hill farm]

2. Yes u are a writer...

and a very good one..i could see a book..it looks like you have started it..without knowing..u are a very good writer..very good!

[UdoKier]

3. Will Pitt's a writer.

I'm an amateur scribbler.

[HippieCowgirl]

10. Check out the novel "Snow Crash" by Neil Stephenson

Aside from the main story, he writes a dead-on prediction of our future urban landscape. An endless series of freeways, with exactly the same franchises everywhere. Each suburb is actually a nation (or part of a nation) on it's own. Where one gated neighborhood is Hong Kong, and the one down the street is part of the Fundamentalist Nation, and the next one down is owned by Taiwan, etc. etc.

IIRC he wrote it in the 80's and his predictions of what America has turned into are pretty close to the mark.

[w13rd0]

22. Wasn't the "Fundie Nation" called...

..."White Plains"? And it was full of neo-Nazis driving Urban Attack vehicles...the girl in it, forget her name, would sticky a land-sking anchor to vehicles to courier stuff across town. Great book...

[HippieCowgirl]

23. That's the one n/t

[loudestchick]

154. burb beaters. interesting book, the tower of babel thing was a bit much.

[murray hill farm]

11. u are a different kind of writer...

than Will Pitt...really...u are good..u wrote that in a way that grabs the reader...and in a way that says so well what u saw and experienced...a way that the regular ole person can quickly identify and understand..personally. you are a natural writer. Give it some thought.

[UdoKier]

20. Thank you for that.

I usually get ragged on for my posts here.

Maybe when things are more settled, I'll take a class and put a little more time into it.

[Lorien]

127. Nonsense. He's published

but you are every bit as skilled.

[underpants]

4. Actually they really are androids in all of those areas

they are constructed and programmed to consume and show others how to.

Seriously, yes the 'burbs can be quite different for city folks just visiting as you were. You do have to remember that if THEY came into your neighborhood things would look as odd to them as their environment did to you.

[Hoping4Change]

5. This a great post. I completely understand where you are coming

from. BTW your kids are absolutely lucky to have parents like you. I too get baffled by people who are the perfect consumers and baffled as well by how they can afford it.

[nashville_brook]

16. amen! that's sooooo important

you are being a PARENT -- those sprawsters just drop their kids off at the mall to fend for themselves.

funny sidelight on this -- 2 weekends ago they had shut down the whole Opry Mills mall on saturday nite b/c a fight between "rival high schools" broke out with hundreds of kids involved. this was at the Regal 16.

[Acryliccalico]

6. I have noticed

the same thing happening here in northern Illinois. I lived in south Florida in 97 to 99, and they had these mega shopping complexes. I moved back here (where I am from, and lived my whole life ,untill 97) in 99 and there was nothing like that here. In the last 5 years those shopping complexes have come here. What I want to know is, How can this happen so fast? Why did it happen in just a few years? It seemed to me it all happened almost overnight. It just seems so strange that I had to add my astonishment to yours.:kick:

[Skidmore]

12. As our industrial base has moved overseas, they have thoughtfully

left us with token service jobs so that we can perform our primary job in this corporate society--consume. We are a professional market now. They've tapped into the one aspect of the American culture that can always be counted on--greed--the need to have more. As long as corporations can maintain the illusion that we all "own" our piece of the univers, then they have it made.

[No Exit]

15. Yeah... we "own" it until some corporation, in the guise of a "local

government", decides to take our little piece of the universe from us through eminent domain.

[nashville_brook]

19. call your City Manager

their job is apply city managment theory and community building techniques into your city. look them up in your phone book --

(uh, if you live in the northeast and the deep south you might have a diff form of management -- this is laregly a middle-american phenom. there's covenant up north and elected positions further down south.)

BUT call them and pressure them for stop signs and sidewalks and public spaces. this is local political action AT IT'S BEST. it's the most direct route of your tax money at work. these people (if they are honest) will listen and work with you.

[No Exit]

25. Thank you. Our city manager is an asshole; I've dealt with him

before over some attempts to close off a street which was originally a dead-end, but then became a throughway.

We have gotten lots of sidewalks, and are getting more!

As for green spaces, the property is so expensive that the green spaces are basically lonnnng walks through woods. But they're nice to walk on... oh, well.

We do have two golf courses, however. :-) (Isn't that special?)

Honest? Um, no... not OUR city officials, lol.

[nashville_brook]

46. meet Johnson City, Tennessee's city manager

from a few years ago -- jeez 10 or so

this came "over the transom" when i ran my newspaper. there was terrible town and gown in JC -- lots of graf. we were happy for the scoop. City Manager John Campbell with a stripper in his office. we sent a reporter to show the photos and he denied that that's money in his hand -- so i got a real high-rez scan and let my readers decide.

for the record, i don't think this photos proves anything about the issues he was messing in at the time, but it shows an attitude in office. this is city property -- and it's this good old boy network where they sit around talking about "pussy" and "niggers." i shit you not.

[No Exit]

47. WHOA!! Those photos look to ME like they prove something!

Were Baptists running amok after you published those? Fundamentalists have a way of running in panicked circles, like cockroaches, when something like this crops up!

[nashville_brook]

55. sad truth is they basically ran us out of business

we had the christian coalition on us CONSTANTLY. they called our advertisers. you know it's bad when you lose your COMIC BOOK store ads b/c of the baptists.

i also have a bunch of great pics of one of many EXORCISMS the freaks would do downtown where there were bars (gasp!), our newspaper offices (eek!) and the Tri-
Cities AIDS Project.

so these pastors and sheep wold come downtown every friday and pull up a couple of haybales and a PA and shout about the homosexuals and WITCHES -- again, i shit you not.

[No Exit]

100. Johnson City is east Tennessee, right?

I would believe almost anything of certain areas of Tennessee. I mean, there IS such a thing as hillbillies! (Not knocking that particular ethnic group... married to someone who has roots in Big Lick, Tennessee.)

But I hear that now there are many Mexicans in east Tennessee. Wonder how those bible-thumpers like THAT? I'd tell 'em, "Don't like it? Say thanks to YOUR president!"

[nashville_brook]

160. yeppers, waaaaaay up there, in the mountains

and you are right -- hillbillies are very real. all kinds of hillbillies too. brilliant folk like they guys at the highlander center. then there's the rest -- very postmodern, strange place.

i'm not sure, there's polite culture and then there's the vigillantes. there happens to be a lot of vigillantes up there. it was difficult enough just being a non-robot up there. can't imagine what it would be like for a racial minority group (especially one thriving economically).

[JHB]

141. Those Comic Book stores...wasn't necessarily the Baptists...

Since this was "10 or so years ago", unless they told you specifically, it might not have been the Baptists. Around that time a combination of industry bad practices and corporate infighting cause the industry to practically implode -- small shops were closing left and right. But whether it was the Baptists' boycott or Diamond Distributor's greed, it's too bad the ad money for your paper dried up.

[nashville_brook]

161. i think there prob some of that -- $$ is ALWAYS tight for advertising

but, they weren't the only ones who got the calls.

i mention my comic book stores b/c it was an issue of freedom of speech "so hot" even they wouldn't get behind us.

[BamaGirl]

98. Weird. Our new city manager used to be cm in JC

NOT this guy thank God lol! Anything I outta know about Mike West lol?

[nashville_brook]

51. on the subject of golf courses -- JC a town of 50k, had 4

i happen to like the ratty old golf course in our little inner city neighborhood. and i LOVE the wonderful old-timers who play there side by side with hungover musicians.

it's green space too, which gives us habitat for songbirds and SQUIRRELS! love the squirrels.

wouldn't want to offend any golfers, but we have to admit there IS a yucky Augusta GA golfer-type and unfortunately too many neophytes think that's the only way to go with their golf-identity. two words -- bill murrray

[TyeDye75]

79. Absolutely

I love the game but I reject totally the type of golfing institutions you describe.

[Skidmore]

8. We have that same experience when we go into

town from a rural setting--homogenized consumerism and a lot of phony happy talk and glad handing. It's such a pleasure to return home.

[classof56]

9. IMHO, you are a writer--and a very good one.

Nice job articulating what many of us feel about today's materialistic society. Lots and lots of people are doing quite well, as you observed, and thus don't worry about the present or the future. Perhaps they should...that debt load will have to be retired one of these days. Maybe they'll just leave it up to their kids to take care of, the kids who will be so grateful that they were raised in such comfort they won't resent paying off Mom and Dad's debts. Then again, perhaps when the chickens finally come home to roost, so to speak, it's the kids who will be squawking the loudest.

Someone told me not long ago, "We are more than consumers." Good that you and so many others realize that and live accordingly. You are a credit to our nation and a small ray of hope for the future.

I like your bumper stickers, BTW. Glad they survived your trip to the 'burbs. Says something good about those who reside there!

Tired Old Cynic

[UdoKier]

17. I really didn't want to bash them - since I don't know them.

I suppose my dad is sort of that type - he lives in a tract house and shops at Sam's Club, but he's almost 70, so he's really not a consumer on the scale of some of these younger parents.

When we were kids, we almost never went out to eat, and I had only one shelf full of toys, so even though we are "poor", our kids actually have more toys than we ever did.

I really want to believe that all of these suburban people are mostly decent folk who just are not used to thinking of other ways to live, and not just a bunch of Fox News-watching automatons...

[nashville_brook]

21. and you would correct on both counts

see my post below -- that's exactly what Sennett says. it's Purification -- wonderful metaphor.

[FreedomAngel82]

67. My dad's brother and his wife's kids

are so spoiled. They're not so bad now that they're getting older and knowing. Once we were over their place and they had this one room that was FULL of toys all over the place. Crazy. They had quite a bit of technology stuff as well. I do have a lot of toys but mainly from birthday's, Christmas, etc. and stuff I've collected from over the years. I won't let my mother give my things away. :) Since some stuff are collector items and I want to pass on to my kids someday. ;)

[nashville_brook]

13. well said, tho -- SPRAWL is cancer

it is killing our Republic economically and culturally. we have the same Regal 27 here -- the Macaroni Grille, the Old Navy -- as a matter of fact, they torn down Opryland years ago to build Opry Mills -- a MALL! nashville traded an AMUSEMENT PARK! with roller coasters to have another mall. and it is FILLED on the weekend.

once in a while i will go to an Old Navy. The last time i was there was a year ago and the torn-faded-unhemmed tshirt was in style. everywhere i looked there was a 16-year old Old Navy employee folding these piles of tshirts that TOWERED over them and to the sides. all thru-out the store. cheap ass nasty worn out shit made by SLAVES in CHINA and folded by "slaves" here for the slaves of consumption who must have something new every 5 minutes. oh and we have about 10 Old Navy stores in nashville. now, imagine where these clothes come from. imagine the little asian textile plant and people being paid CENTS a day to make this crap.

as a denizen of a beautiful world-class city (as my father used to say) you owe it to yourself to pursue this line of thinking. there's so much facinating research and writing about city managment, new urbanism, and sprawl. for me, this is where the rubber meets the road.

my absolute favorite is Richard Sennett, The Uses Of Disorder: Personal Identity and City Life -- published for the first time in 1970. he posits that these non-communities organized solely for the advancement of commerce, will bring forth a New Puritanism wherre we will gladly hand over our IDENTITY in exchange for lessening our ANXIETY of the unknown -- the dirty city personified.

i'm sure it's out of print, but any good library should be able to get it thru inter-library loan.

[nashville_brook]

24. teenage mastery

(you know you've struck a chord, UdoKier, when you get people replying to their own replies -- a sign of a provocative writer)

"responsible" suburbanites move their children out to the suburbs b/c they want to "protect" them from the "danger" of the city. but what they end up doing is teaching their kids the ONLY thing they have to master in order to feel competant and masterful --- is to be a good shopper. there's a Cingular commmercial out right now where a teenage girl deliveres the tagline: "It shows we are smart shoppers" -- our response is supposed to be, why yes, aren't you -- how nice!

bottom line these parents are being lied and willingly perpetuating it. the suburbs are not any safer than the city -- as a matter of fact, they are more dangerous for kids b/c kids get to roam in their Lord of the Flies world of malls and theaters.

oh, i could go on for days -- thank you for the tweak.

[Hoping4Change]

27. Great avatar. Great recommendation.

I haven't read Sennett's The Uses Of Disorder: Personal Identity and City Life -- but I have read other books by him. This book I will defintely check out.

[nashville_brook]

76. teehee -- Bongo

i love Bongo. i have an inner Bongo.

[FreedomAngel82]

68. I loved Opryland!

My parents, brother and I and some of our relatives on my Dad's side went there once when I was younger and we had a lot of fun. Sad it's now a mall. :( I thought Opryland was great for Nashville. They still have Dollywood right? Even though I don't live far away from Nashville I haven't been there in forever (too big for me and I get lost easily).

[nashville_brook]

77. dollyland still going -- go to the other side of the smokeys tho -- its

soooooo pretty!

when they built Opry Mills there was lots of research done on how much more money would be made at a mall. it was the only consideration. it is, afterall, a private business.

in a way, it's kinda nice to focus more on music and the "real" nashville thang.

[No Exit]

14. "This is what happens when you have an economy instead of a culture."

Said to me by a very wise family member.

As for the McMansions, lol! I live in a suburb which, though not new, is filling up with McMansions. They tear down the smaller WWII-era bedroom homes, and build these things that look ridiculously grandiose.

Let's just call my suburb (in which I also grew up) "Happy Valley." I'll never forget when a policeman was addressing a whole bunch of us, years ago, when there was a break-in problem or something. He began to tell us a story of an incident. He said he went up to one of the houses and rang the bell. Then he said, "Well, it was a typical Happy Valley home... no one home but the maid."

[THUNDER HANDS]

18. ha, that's nothing

try living on Long Island. We have about 10 malls equal to the one you described. And it wouldn't take more than an hour to drive to all of them.

[EC]

26. And each and every one of those $600,000. homes

are built to fall apart in 10-15 years. Planned obsolescence in modern homebuilding..

[UdoKier]

30. I have always loved that photo of the guy in the turtleneck

putting daisies in the rifles. Beautiful, lasting image.

And right-wingers must just despise it...

[FreedomAngel82]

71. I like it too

The guy kinda looks like Andy Dick. :shrug:

[EC]

95. I'm sure they do hate it....

I like it, it reminds me of a fight that was won...

[Goathead]

28. I just moved to Loudoun County, Virginia

...and was unaware of the "McMansion" phenomenon. They are everywhere out here. Old farm land being gobbled up for development with no end in site. This is really beautiful country too, which doesn't make sense to me because it is touted as "Virginia's Horse Country" and there are million dollar estates everywhere. So why aren't these millionaire/billionaires doing something to preserve this landscape? It would be within their best interests, would it not? The only thing I can come up with is that this a case of the rich eating the rich. There is indeed no honor among thieves.

[UdoKier]

32. Oh yes, I should have mentioned.

Dublin is surrounded by beautiful rolling hills which are the most stunning emerald green this time of year, hence the name "Dublin" I suppose. I hate to think of that sprawl eating up those hills any more than it already has.


:scared:

[B3Nut]

74. Madison is suffering from that as well...

The house my inlaws live in sits on a few acres surrounded by what used to be pastureland. Now it's a sprawling morass of cheap McMansions and McCondos. Their house and the house next to it are in the process of being sold so the developers can gobble up that last prime bit of real estate and throw up more McCondos. Oh well, in their position I'd do the same thing, they're making insane profit. Still amazes my wife, who can remember what the area used to look like (I've only been a Wisconsinite for a shade over 2 years). She and I bought an old Victorian in a nearby small town, expensive but at least has history and solidity to it. Try finding similar woodwork in a new McMansion. Ain't happening.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Hardrada]

142. Kenosha also

My sister-in-law has lived in Kenosha (Pleasant Prairie section) for decades and she hates all the gray sprawl to the west. Woods and farmland gone. I have noticed the Madison housing sprawl only in the last two years. I live in Iowa but go to Madison every so often.

[MountainLaurel]

92. Well

It's not the million-dollar farms that are being gobbled up. For the most part, the folks selling to developers are the smaller produce and livestock farms, where the parents who were farming are dead or in need of a long-term care facility, and the children are uninterested in the family business or just can't afford to make it work. But Loudoun is trying its darndest to stop the onslaught. For some interesting history on the issue, try this: http://www.voterstostopsprawl.org/site/loudounvss/.

[Tsiyu]

29. Ohmigod, we're not alone!

We live a VERY simple life at present, but my kids remember their days living with diddy just down the road from the Great Mall Hell of Georgia.

They always seem to get this disgusted look on their faces when we have to re-enter the MegaMaterialism Plazas for any reason. It depresses them. Now, we aren't in a city, we are on the edges of teeny towns, but it's a similar vibe.

Character counts.


Don't be embarrassed about anything. Your writing is great.:)

[Walt Starr]

31. Ahhh, the anti-suburban rant, the final vestige of bigotry allowed on DU

The Anti-Southern rants went away. Nobody can be against Israel unless it's in the I/P forum, but it's fine to be anti-suburban.

Spare me.

[UdoKier]

36. Bigotry?

Feel free to elaborate.

And I am proudly anti-sprawl. Wouldn't say "anti-suburban", because there is a place for suburbs - I just don't think that place should be every last bit of open space in this country.

Funny that you say that, since the gated communities and mcmansions are at least in part a product OF bigotry (and fear of the terrible, urban "other").

[Walt Starr]

37. Spare me

You just ranted a piece that laid all the ills of the world at suburbanites. As a person who HAD to move to the suburbs in order to partake of home ownership, I resent the bigotry implied in your rant.

[UdoKier]

40. Whatever.

Defensive much?

[Walt Starr]

42. Just don't like Anti-suburnaite attitudes n/t

[UdoKier]

43. Bummer for you.

I hardly "blamed the ills of the world" on suburbanites.

The waste and environmental destruction inherent to the suburban/exurban model are a whole different topic.

[Walt Starr]

45. You can read my thoughts about this subjevt here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3158705&mesg_id=3158705

[UdoKier]

50. That's very nice.

But there are 300 million people in this country. If every single one of us were living in a ranch house with a 1/4 acre lot, that beauty you are so enamored of would not exist.

Also, what you are describing sounds more like a semi-rural area than a suburb. Suburbs utterly destroy nature.

And while your city may be crime-ridden, there are also VERY nice, livable cities. I don't like being hit up by the homeless for money, mostly because I can't afford to help, but I'm afraid of what would happen to my mind if I lived in an environment that was constructed to keep them out. How easy it would be to forget that they even exist...

[Walt Starr]

54. Nope, it's the second largest city in Illinois

Aurora, Illinois, to be exact.

Population, 142,990

[UdoKier]

59. Most suburbs are not as you describe.

Endless swaths of housing, with a few artificial waterfalls, if it's affluent enough. Nary a sidewalk, and no place walkable. If your neighborhood actually has some real nature and places to walk, you are fortunate.

Do you watch Wayne and Garth on public access? ;)

[Walt Starr]

61. Sidewalks everywhere here

and if I chose, I'd never have to go to a big box for a thing.

We do use Target, Lowes, Jewel, and Costco, but have yet to set foot into 85% of the business in the shoipping strip. We are fortunate that all of the big boxes were stuffed along a single highway.

[AngryAmish]

84. And Portillo's

Suburban Chicago's greatest asset.

[Hardrada]

144. My cousins and aunt have always lived in suburbs

for fifty years! And have always been both Democrats and shoppers!! So one can't generalize. Also IL suburbs are becoming more liberal from what I have been told. I don't mind the Golf Road stuff and like to visit IKEA and Tower Records and the one strip with Barnes & Noble and Nordstrom's even if I am an anarcho-syndicalist!! I do business in the Chicago suburbs and usually stay in Arlington Heights. I myself live in a smaller community in Eastern (blue) Iowa.

[Walt Starr]

63. Wayne and Garth left public access here years ago

when Wayne moved out of his Mother's basement to become a secret agent in Her Majesty's Secret Service. ;)

BTW, if I had my choice between here and the next suburb to the East, I'd go with Naperville. Incredibly beautiful town.

Of course, suburbs here might be a bit different in their charm from elsewhere. Every last one or chicago's suburbs was established more than a century ago and even though sprawl has connected them all, I don't think the charm has left entirely.

Mayhaps that is the difference.

[Igel]

89. I grew up in a suburb of Baltimore. Every single one was different,

different kinds of people, different attitudes. Lots of similarities, but still some differences. All the houses were different, or at least almost all. Little family stores, a bowling alley with only duckpins.

Grew up playing dodge and softball in the streets ... very few cars to look out for, and since they were driven by our parents, they slowed down with no complaints. I could walk or bike in my little section of suburb, without worrying about people wandering through ... even at 3 or 4 am. Less turnover in house ownership than in apartments.

Had a nice vegetable garden in the backyard as a kid, a pool where friends could come over and we didn't have to worry about other people. A basement where I could blast Black Sabbath and Aerosmith without somebody pounding on the ceiling, wall, or floor for me to turn it down. And no opportunity for me to pound on walls.

My parents moved to a suburb in a different city 15 years after they retired. Home owner association rules. All the houses look the same. High turnover. Cheaply built. Only big-box stores and chains--few little entrepreneurs were ready to set up shop before the big boys moved in. But it's what they, and everybody else, seem to want.

[chicagojoe]

118. Hey, Walt Starr, I know how you feel.

I'm up north of you, in Elgin. Had to leave Chicago in order to be able to afford a home. We chose Elgin because it's not a sprawl-type town. I'm familiar with Aurora, too. Have relatives there.
The sprawl around most of America IS a joke, however. Plastic and soul-less. Even up here, the growth west of Randall Rd. sucks. But housing is needed, so it must be built.

[chicagojoe]

119. Didn't know that. I would have thought Rockford or Springfield.

[nashville_brook]

64. having a TRAIN, in itself disqualifies where you live from what most

people critique in terms of suburb or spraw.

that's some beautiful writing, btw!

the "suburbs" of chicago have actually long been used as example of GOOD city mangment -- and there's lot of examples of this in the mid-west. the reasons for that are complex, but it has something to do with your proximity to oil and rail transportation for commodities.

but, the Regal Cinemas, Macaroni Grills and Old Navy sprawl sites we have been talking about are a different animal. built for cars, on a commercial scale, with no mass transit, traffic jams every morning, lunch and evening. few public spaces and no walking culture. think miami, cinncinati, and atlanta.

there's also a developmental angle to this.

I live in what is considered an inner city neighborhood--but just 30 years ago, it was considered a suburb. i moved here for off-street parking and to have an acre for my dogs and noisy, musician lifestyle. but to everyone in nashville, this is considered URBAN. that's b/c everyone here has moved at least 30-40 minutes out of town to get away from, well, black people. it's sad to say, but that's their fear.

[datasuspect]

103. chicago suburbs

the ones that predate 1920 are excellent models.

they came about almost solely because of railroads. aurora was (is) the commuter terminus for the burlington northern railroad.

additionally, lots of midwestern towns seem rational because they adhere to jeffersonian plats. and zoning.

[Walt Starr]

105. Nearly every Chicago suburb predates 1920

:shrug:

Maybe I'm missing something because I have no clue what the suburbs of Atlanta or Dallas are like.

[datasuspect]

109. very true

and although there are towns and villages that incorporated in the 50s and 60s, they are still the inheritors of a cohesive community.

although i don't know cohesive they remained once the farmers started selling their farms.

that has always been a sad sight to me: the remnants of a turn of the century farm house, silo, and outbuildings surrounded by retail cubes, gas stations, and development.

i guess they sell every acre they can until all they have left is the farmhouse. those go away eventually too.

[CottonBear]

124. You don't want to know..the horror!

The sprawl is never-ending: there is mile upon square mile of pure crap, destroyed landscapes with no sense of place remaining. The houses are crappy. No one wants to live near a minority so they keep moving further and further out and then they complain about growth and traffic!

[Bouncy Ball]

211. You must not.

The suburbs of Dallas are death.

There is NO mass transportation. They are not, for the most part, aesthetically pleasing at all (quite often the opposite). Very little cultural activity. All about consumption, consumption, consumption.

Traffic congestion is horrid.

It's bleh. And that's the nicest thing I can say about the Dallas burbs. And I live in what I consider to be one of the not so bad ones!

[nashville_brook]

162. amen! my fave vacations have been just seeing

some of those neighborhoods with my own eyes.

[ultraist]

70. Bush won the majority of the suburb votes, what does that tell us?

[UdoKier]

73. Tells us we've got our work cut out for us...

NT

[DrWeird]

131. Tells me the majority of suburbanites are fucking idiots.

What does it tell you?

[ultraist]

221. LMAO!!!

Yes, I'd consider anyone who votes for Bush pretty much a fucking idiot.

[Willy Lee]

49. Huh?

Walt Starr (!)- I ususally love reading your posts. But... huh? I don't see this as bashing suburbia so much as being perplexed at the lifestyle. It sounds like a nerve was touched with you.

I thought it was very well written and unassuming, not bashing or baiting in any way.

(edited to fix my name snafu!)

[UdoKier]

53. You are responding to Walt Starr, not Will Pitt.

Two very different DUers.

[Willy Lee]

57. Oops- my bad!

Still, I enjoy Walt Starr's posts also.

[nashville_brook]

60. where we live is the Alpha and Omega of political life

suburbs are made for businesses to make money -- not for human development and growth.

and they are our creations. we need to talk about this so we can make it better.

besides, a SUBURB IS A THING-- not a person. we are victims of our environment. we want to take that back and live a more healthy, rational, human life.

[Bouncy Ball]

210. Spare ME Walt.

I live in the suburbs. I think they're death personified. And I can say that. So there.

They aren't the country, they aren't the city. They are neither. They have none of the good aspects of either.

All of the traffic and congestion and none of the culture (or precious little) or the pulse of the city.

All of the headaches of being far out from things but none of the peace and quiet of the country.

In short, it is death and it sucks.

[Binka]

34. This piece is so beautifully written & your children and wife are very

blessed to have you as a father and life partner. I went to San Diego in early February and I was struck by the same things that struck you in Dublin. The newest or rather phoniness, the affluence, the SUVs, and the absolute realization that I just was such an alien to this culture. I was stunned by the acute vapidness of it all.

Dublin FYI is a very wealthy Republican enclave and it's denizens are quite representative of the small group of elites that have benefited from Bush's slash and burn economy.

I loved the Bay Area when I lived there too. SF is a wonderful city. Keep writing.

[UdoKier]

39. Sorry to hear that about Dublin.

There is an intangible 'something' different about the look and feel of Dublin compared to some of the other Bay Area suburbs. I guess that explains it. Some of the Marin suburbs are just gorgeous and the houses seem to be more in proper scale to their environs... (of course, Marin is obscenely expensive)

[prozacnation]

147. and you get your facts from where?

Apparently I missed the FYI convention about Dublin. I know of very few wealthy republicans who live in Dublin. My friends and neighbors are hard working, diverse groups of people who struggle to maintain the illusion of middle class. By the way I live in Dublin and it's not perfect but what the heck is with all of the bashing?

And you live where? Perhaps in a place with no republicans, only poor people and total harmony? Good grief.

[NoSheep]

35. Thank you for your story. I was so depressed yesterday. It helps to come

back to DU where there are people like me. Learning about Hunter T's suicide made me think of just how horribly bland and boring our society is. And I wonder if he didn't just get sick of it all. All the allegiance to the norm. All the cookie cutter people. All the lies they have to tell themselves just to continue with their lives. I must remember we aren't all that way. And all these folks in the burbs , some of them are just getting along the only way they know because they're afraid of anything else; new, different, etc:hi:

[Kaylee]

44. Be careful with your generalizations......

I am still more in lurk mode than post mode, but I am trying to be a bit more adventurous.

I just wanted to point out that everyone in the suburbs is not a republican cookie cut-out. Here in the DC area, a lot of suburbs are liberal and are filled with people just trying to find a decent school system for their kids. We aren't scared of the city, most of us lived there before kids, or still work in the city.

We live in the "dreaded" burbs and did so, because we didn't want to have to pay 15 years of private school tuition for 2 kids. (DC public schools have been so bad for so long. In fact my parents moved out of the city when I was 5 because my mother couldn't bear to put me in the school system - she was a DC Public School administrator who was tired of fighting incompetence). Give me a decent school system, or a house I could afford in the sections of the city that have the good schools, and I am back. Although I will admit it would be the part of the city with easy access to shopping. ;-)

[NoSheep]

93. Re-read my post. I'm not so sure you'll find any there.

I too have lived in the burbs because I had to. I believe you will notice I used the word "some".;)

[toddaa]

41. You should try living in the middle of it.

Existentialism teaches that existance precedes essence. In the case of suburbia, essence is never reached. I sometimes help out with my son's various little league teams and the vast majority of people are friendly, decent, and honest. Apart from that, I have nothing in common with any of them and don't interact with them much. It's like living in a cultural wasteland where sports, reality TV, and Britney Spears are the pinnacle of cultural achievement. It's impossible to hate my fellow suburbanites, as I'm for all intents and purposes one of them, but I feel sad for the lot of us.

[karlrschneider]

48. Reminds me of a toon I saw many years ago:

A lady sitting in a booth in a hotel restaurant turns around and asks the people sitting behind her "Excuse me, is this the Paris Hilton, or the London Hilton?"

[Bridget Burke]

52. Did you actually talk to any of the suburbanites?

I prefer the city myself, but do know some decent people who live Outside the Loop. The architecture out there is definitely cookie-cutter--but the people are quite diverse.

Of course, I'm in Houston, which is much more uncool than San Francisco.

[UdoKier]

58. I know plenty of suburbanites.

Especially from work. And they are really good at repeating Fox News talking points, verbatim - and they all consider themselves to be "moderates".


BTW, I grew up in Beaumont - not far from you. I don't know that Houston is "uncool". It sure is hot and smoggy, though. But the Texas Hill Country and the Piney Woods must be nice getaways... :)

[Bridget Burke]

66. Well, I guess the suburbanites I know are smarter than yours!

A few brain-deads, but also some decent people.

The architecture Outside The Loop tends to suck, but all sorts of people live out three.

The Texas Hill Country is rapidly filling up with suburban sprawl. If you consider Houston hot & smoggy, I'd advise you stay out of the Piney Woods; also a good idea if you want to avoid the Klan.

[UdoKier]

72. I'm not saying they are stupid.

They're actually bright, nice, and don't see themselves as bigoted.

The problem is they all work long hours, and what other time they have is devoted to family, so they think a half hour of Fox every night is enough to "get caught up on current events". And it slowly warps their perceptions. One of my co-workers told me how she appreciates O'Reilly because "he's an independent and gives both sides of an issue". To them, people like us, who actually spend hours poring over newspaper articles from home and abroad, demanding details rather than just a broad-brush picture must seem obsessive.

And to a degree they may be right - Some of the time I devote to this should probably given to my kids.

[datasuspect]

104. beaumont?

now THAT is an interesting study in white flight.

[UdoKier]

133. Yeah. We moved from there to El Paso, so I guess it was "brown flight"

for us. The Beaumont we left in '78 was much whiter than El Paso, which was 80% Mexican even then. I HATED it at the time - major culture shock. Now, I'm very proud to call myself an El Pasoan, one of very few red counties and cities left in Texas, and I love the warm, wonderful Mexican people of that city.

I visited Beaumont again in 1994, and I didn't recognize it. The shopping center I used to see movies at had gone from very nice to pretty scummy, and the town was filling up with all of those Applebee's type joints - it had become much uglier, and my once tidy neighborhood looked a bit tattered, though not really bad. Didn't have much time to spend there...

[newportdadde]

56. I live in the suburbs now of Kansas City..

no not Johnson County :mad: ala Thomas Frank lol but Jackson county in a 28 year old house. Having grown up on a large family farm in a 100 year old house with no AC etc I don't think I will ever feel completely comfortable there(okay I like the AC), but its close to my wifes parents, my job and the schools are good so I'll make do.

I miss taking the mile long walks to my grandmothers cutting through farm fields and pastures alike on a nice May afternoon. I miss stoping to get a real homemade hamburger with my father from a hole in the wall of some town with 250 people on the way to a cattle sale in the middle of nowhere. It was isolating to be sure but a fun way to grow up in its own right. Of course that is all gone now, DINKs have moved down where I grew up buying up small parcles of 40 acres driving out the farmers my father grew up with and even my father himself who can't afford the 2k an acre a 40 will bring.

Now I'm Joe average I guess, daily commuter to and from the suburbs, I-70 is my bane. My wife does most of the shopping but on the occassions I do go out I feel like saying to myself "When did all this happen, all these new shops and crap to buy?"

Everywhere it all looks the same, across the state it looks the same with your Applebees and Best Buys etc. I miss my ma and pa dinners, the old clothing shops on the town square where they *gasp* measured you and had customer service till Walmart showed up etc.

I miss women aged 25 to 45 who weren't afraid to be brunnettes and not drive an SUV!!! :eyes:

I feel like one of Anne Rice's vampires having slept for a hundred years not knowing whats going on now.

[loudestchick]

208. Come into town and visit us in Brookside or Waldo. Have a glass of wine

and some Bruchetta at Cafe Il Centro at 51st and Main or a slice of 'Za at Waldo Pizza where their motto is "Corporate Pizza Sucks".
I grew up in Independence and moved into the city 15 yrs ago. I can't imagine not walking down to the grocery store or florist. I love so many things about my neighborhood but like so many others schools are an issue. I drive my 3 kids 15 min each morning so that they can attend a terrific KCMO public school (Holliday Montessori). It takes some effort to find a good placement for children if you live in the city, but they do exist.

[FreedomAngel82]

62. Nice story

And it shows the two different worlds very well. My family and I haven't been to the movies in forever because they're so pricy. When we did go we'd buy a coke and put in a candy bar or something in our purses. Now I wait until the movie comes on HBO or DVD. I live in a pretty good town. Downtown there's a lot to do for everybody of all ages. I love living here because we're not a huge city like Memphis or Atlanta but we're not too small either. It's just so perfect for me. :)

[ultraist]

65. Interesting OP!

Suburbs were created by the "white flight." Whites moved out of cities to be with their own kind. "Back in the 1950s, when you told someone you lived in the suburbs, you were telling them something about who you are," says William H. Frey, a demographer for The Brookings Institute who penned the recent study."

Surbubanites further congregated with their own kind economically. Suburbs are still in large part very homogeniuous but there is a trend for middle and upper income whites to move back to the cities in some regions. As minorities gain some economic power, they are moving out the the burbs but 92% of suburb populations remain white.

"'White flight', says Charles Gallagher, a Georgia State University sociologist, "is alive and well because the history of housing preferences tells us so."

The whites that are moving back into the city are seeking to be closer to the amenities urban centers offer. A rich and diverse culture: art galleries, museums, theatre, diverse schools, interesting restaurants, etc. The down side of this of course, is that many areas are being gentrified which displaces lower income urban dwellers.

"Contrary to the suburban sprawl being experienced by Georgia, large, urban cities like New York City are experiencing the flip side of the coin; 'white flight' to the inner-city, in the form of gentrification. Communities like New York's Park Slope and Harlem are in the midst of controversial and trendy rebuilding and "renewing" projects which attract the middle- and upper-class to these neighborhoods, often at the expense of the lower-income, often minority, residents, who end up displaced. "

*quotes from:
http://racerelations.about.com/library/weekly/aa063001a.htm

[Igel]

91. Yes and no. That's the usual reason for a lot of the expansion

of the suburbs, but I was born in one built in the '30s, and grew up in one built in the '40s and '50s because it was near a very large employer.

Rochester, NY, currently includes a bunch of suburbs inside the city--they have nice little front and back yards, driveways ... but the difference between them and the 'burbs is frequently a line on a map. And, if you look at maps from 90 years ago, they were outside the city. A lot of people have just always wanted their own little house, and city centers are lousy places for that. We live in an apartment now, but the first chance we get to buy a house, that's what we'll do. SW Houston's the same way--you have a built up downtown, and areas with lots of apartments, but also areas of single-family homes ... suburbs gobbled up by the city.

Rochester also has a second generation of suburbs, farther away. And a thoroughly impoverished area N, E, and W of downtown. Some of those people undoubtedly moved from downtown, to leave behind the mix of race and poverty there, but many moved to Rochester after the run-down areas of downtown were already in place.

[Wind Dancer]

69. It's amazing how all of the suburban shopping complexes

throughout the country are designed by many of the same architects. It's hard to tell which city you are visiting.

Vermont has managed to keep many of these complexes out of the state - it's one of the few places you can still feel the small town atmosphere. Independent business owners support each other, etc.

BTW, I live in the burbs and know plenty of nice people, however, I miss the uniqueness of certain areas, it's hard to see when the malls have taken over and invaded your backyard.

[flygal]

78. Super Size Me had a great description

One interviewee said it reminded him of the Flintstones where they drove past the repetitive back drop.

[Wind Dancer]

81. LOL, I remember that scene!

I have to agree.

[GumboYaYa]

75. I just can't do it anymore.

There has to be major happening to get me to go to suburbia these days. The rows and rows of siding houses with the exat same architecture deppresses me to no end. Going to the mall puts me in a bad mood. There is too much cool stuff happening in the city where I live to ever consider spending a day trapsing through strip malls and big box stores. I completely understand how you felt this past weekend.

[Xithras]

80. FYI, Dublin is NOT a SUBURB!

Suburb: A residential area surrounding an urban city. Suburb residents typically work in adjacent urban areas.

FYI, the Dublin/Pleasanton/Livermore area is a well known business friendly area and is the home of some of the biggest technology companies and research labs in the country. Most of the people who live in those $500k stucco palaces in the surrounding hills work for high paying technology companies like PeopleSoft, or for Sandia or Lawrence Livermore National Labs, all of which are located right there in the tri-valley area. The extension of BART into Dublin has probably added some commuters to the mix, but the city is still far from becoming a suburb of SF.

I used to work in Pleasanton, literally 100 yards from the Dublin city limit, and I can assure you that it's not freeper central or mindless suburbia. Aside from the horrendously gaudy shopping mall that you had the misfortune to visit (I've driven past it a thousand times, and can never get over how FUGLY that place is), it's actually a very nice area.

Also, Dublin has been taking great strides towards smart growth, and is a good example for other cities in the state. Did you happen to drive to the east edge of the city where all of the new development is happening? It's all 4 and 5 story high density condo's, with nary a stucco mcmansion in sight. The entire tri-valley area is doing everything possible to stop mindless sprawl, and is pretty much telling new buyers "If you want a big house with a yard, go to Tracy!"

[UdoKier]

82. That's nice to hear, but it seems like a suburb or exurb to me.

Right on the freeway, and just a few miles of hilly open space between it and Castro Valley and the other closer-in suburbs, within commuting distance of much of the Bay Area...

And your description of the city's economy gives a good picture of how they afford all the SUVs...

But I'm glad to hear there are sensible people there. As I said, I had not problems with anyone there at all, and most people seemed nice, if somewhat homogeneous in appearance.

And it's funny what you say about Tracy. A lot of otherwise liberal folks here in the Bay Area are very prone to NIMBY syndrome. They've been here for a while, already have carved out their little piece of paradise, and don't want anyone else to move in. My cousin lives in Gilroy and is a big NIMBY activist. The thing is, there are more people moving here. Instead of always shoving them off on some other community, why not allow sensible non-sprawl growth in your own? (not addressing this to you personally)

[Xithras]

85. I don't think it's so much NIMBYism

Most people in the tri-valley area understand that growth is natural, but they have been forced to put the brakes on mindless sprawl for another reason...they are literally running out of land. Early development chewed up huge tracts of land for McMansions and the cities are left with limited amounts of open space (the farmland beween Pleasanton and Livermore is the largest undeveloped flatland anywhere in the Bay Area at this point, and it's only a few miles across). They merely had to drive down the 680 to see what development has done to the South Bay over the past 20 years to see their future. They don't want that and threw on the brakes.

So naturally, the growth has moved on to Tracy, Manteca, and the other areas of the western Central Valley. Huge tracts of land out here are owned by the Pombo's (rich Republicans...Richard Pombo is the areas Representative in Washington) and they are extremely developer friendly. So, the sprawl continues.

Of course, things should get interesting next time we have a good flood year. Most of the new homes being built around the Tracy/Lathrop/Manteca area are literally being built on swampland that floods with some regularity. The last time I drove through the area I was amazed to see acre after acre of new homes sprouting up on land that was under 20+ feet of water just a few years ago, and which flood on average once every five years. The land is still subsiding, the century old levees can barely hold the water back, and yet fool after fool continues to fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy there, and the corrupt local officials (most of whom are landowners raking in big bucks from development themselves) continue to allow it.

What can be done? :shrug:

[eissa]

226. That's my neck of the woods

Modesto, actually. I've seen good agricultural land transformed into ugly sprawl. I acknowledge there has been some good -- more cultural options thanks to Bay Area transplants, and more general activity. But the lack of planning has resulted in horrible congestion (of course, no real public transit) and outrageous costs. You can't even buy a crack house now for under $300,000. We know a family who purchased a home for around $500,000. They also have the required SUV and Mercedes. He's a carpenter in the Bay Area and she works at the local mall. I can't figure it out.

[hiphopnation]

83. Another one raising their kids in SF, here.

My wife and I have been going back and forth for two years about whether or not we would stay here. It's hard for us because we have no immediate family close by. Hers are in suburban Houston and mine are in suburban Washington D.C. What's so funny is that she doesn't want to go back to Houston and I don't want to go back to D.C.

But after living here and raising our kids here, especially in this day and age with Shrub and the glutinous consumption and ignorance that runs rampant in EVERY suburb in the country, it's becoming increasingly difficult to justify leaving.

Thanks for your story, I identify with it on so many levels. There's nothing like leaving SF and then coming back...that feeling is like... "AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" back in sanity and, of course, the sheer, jaw-dropping beauty of this place. We may be total weirdos but we don't really give a damn that we will never be able to buy a house here. That may matter to us more later, but right now we could care less.

I'm just not sure what kind of future the suburbs has. It's stability seems dubious, at best, to me. Take our rate of consumption compared with the rest of the world and then throw a bunch of neocon nutbags on top of it...seems a recipe for disaster.

Forgive my rambling...thanks again for your post.

[jeffrey_X]

86. I ventured out of the city today as well...

Left Chicago this morning to drive down to Indianapolis for biz. I stopped twice along the way at the truck stop gas stations......WOW. You talk about freeperville. It is seriously scary how out of touch I am from the state where I grew up.

The funniest part was seeing 10 different types of magnet ribbons for sale at the cash register.....10 fucking kinds!!!!

[JohnyCanuck]

87. Suburbia - the greatest misallocation of resources

in the history of the world, as per new ubanist James Kunstler.

I was in Boulder, Colorado, over the weekend. This town of about 100,000 at the base of the Rockies, some thirty miles north of Denver, is struggling with some success to rebuild its center after fifty years of sacrifice to the Gods of easy motoring. Four story apartment buildings with ground floor retail have gone up where there used to parking lots and car-washes. Streets that were once dead zones have come back to life. They've cobbled together a bus transit system that runs frequently enough so that normal people (i.e. the non-indigent) will actually ride it.

Meanwhile, an orgy of suburban sprawl development continues out on the prairie between Boulder and Denver. When you actually behold this sordid smear of beige-colored tract housing, mirror-clad office boxes, and tilt-up retail pods, one message comes through with laser-like clarity: "No Future Here." The suburban "story" has a tragic arc, and since we've squandered our national wealth on it, we are apparently determined to make ourselves feel good about it. You cannot overestimate the delusional thinking that the public will bring to this effort. It will range from credentialed intellectual figures such as Kotkin, to the lowliest Nascar morons defending their entitlements to the American Dream.

At the supposedly more respectable end of the commenting industry, Kotkin now joins NY Times Columnist David Brooks in the cheerleaders' section for a way of life that Vice-president Dick Cheney said was "non-negotiable." They've made common cause with more notorious idiots such as Peter Huber (who thinks the planet has a creamy nougat center of oil), and the ambiguously rational duo of Wendell Cox and Randall O'Toole, who have made careers of pimping for the highway gang.

America can tell itself whatever it wants to hear, but history and destiny have other plans for us. That plan includes a lot of trouble with the energy needed to run the beloved drive-in utopia. No amount of cheerleading for that way of life will bring back the depleted oil fields of Texas or the tapped-out gas wells of Oklahoma, or buy us the friendship of the people around the Persian Gulf who own two-thirds of the world's remaining oil. Reality's message to us doesn't jibe with Kotkin's strange victory lap. Reality's message is "Tilt! Game over!"

Above excerpt from Kunstler's blog "The Clusterfuck Nation Chronicle"
http://www.kunstler.com/mags_diary13.html

If the theory that world oil production will hit peak within the next 5 to 10 years is correct (as Kunstler believes), suburban development will come to a screeching halt and take much of the population by surprise.

See excerpts from the video documentary "End of Suburbia" here (Apple Quick Time format):

http://911busters.com/video/IQ1_20_END_OF_SUBURBIA_VIDEO_24.2_.mov

[Walt Starr]

88. Rhetorical bullshit

That's all he's spewing. He offers no proof, only opinionated rhetorical bullshit that had a conclusions in mind before it was ever written.

[JohnyCanuck]

90. I guess we'll see when the oil runs out. n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

94. I like your post

I've had a real back-and-forth kind of existence. Grew up rural -- still 30 minutes from the closest Wal-Mart -- lived my early adult years in Bloomington, IL -- strip-mall city -- and then moved to Seattle -- first to one of the closer-to-downtown neighborhoods (Fremont), then, out to Shoreline.

I think it's not quite as homogenous as you imagine. Seattle is usually second only to Frisco when you're talking about liberal West-coast cities.

Seattle's downtown, except for the pioneer square area, is really clean and modern -- it has lots of high-end shops and you can't spit without hitting a Starbucks. Plus, there are all the trendy highrises that were built before the dot.com bubble burst.

Seattle, I think is a brilliant example of city planning. For one, Costco and Fred Meyer have kept Wal-Mart out of the city (though there is a Big K along Aurora) -- you have this downtown that is part ritzy, part cool -- and then everything else is almost a neighborhood. You don't really get out to the "suburbs" until you're pretty far out -- Northgate, Shoreline -- and even though they have a couple of malls and box stores -- there aren't any McMansions -- just lots and lots of houses -- mostly 1970s. And they're all nice neighborhoods. You don't necessarily have to live on Capitol Hill or in Belltown to find a nice neighborhood in Seattle. Most of the closer neighborhoods -- Magnolia, Fremont, Wallingford, the U-District, Ballard, etc., all have storefront sections with independent businesses and bars and restaurants. You really don't get to the Suburbs until you get down past Kent or up to Lynnwood, or over to Bellevue.

That said, when I moved to Seattle, I didn't go to a shopping mall for three years -- I lived in Fremont, Ballard and West Seattle -- and then, in my fourth year, I was scrubbing it out in my little blue house in Shoreline -- and broke my glasses, so I had to go to the Lenscrafters, because there was nowhere else I could go -- and I can't see a thing without them.

It was like entering another fucking world. You don't notice exactly how different it is, until you have experienced it like that. I'm not a trendy person, and tend to wear long, dark-colored, non-descript dresses and cardigans, with boots or tennis shoes. When I walked into the mall, it was like I'd entered a space-aged consumer rock opera. The lights -- the frosted lip gloss -- the melon-colored shirts -- the hairdos. It was freaking amazing -- the music blaring from the Abercrombie store, guys with slicked hair running around, the cell phones.

It was like being in hell.

Even the first time I went to the mall now that I'm in Iowa (I've gone a handfull of times to take my son to the Merry-go-round), it was totally weird. I was reading Walter Benjamin, at the time.

I always love this quote:

"For me, the best thing about cyberpunk is that it
taught me how to enjoy shopping malls, which used
to terrify me. Now I just imagine the whole thing is
two miles below the moon's surface, and that half the
people's right-brains have been eaten by roboticized
steel rats. And suddenly it's interesting again."

-- Rudy Rucker

I do think the entire lifestyle is destructive, wasteful, and so fucking useless. Suburbia is the VERY reason that I'm a libertarian. First and foremost, I'm against "national-brand consciousness," because it encourages living outside of one's sphere, and turns everyone into the mindless drones that we've waxed negative about, in this thread.

I grew up with it, and I'm done with it. This is why I believe in freedom of association. I would just as soon not have to be around the consumers. I realize, however, that not everyone in those suburbs is a mindless consumer.

[SoCalDem]

96. Our son & DIL live in Concord

but it seems more like a college town to me. It is also very upscale and the homes are outta sight pricewise, but it seems to have a bit more ambiance:)

and yes.. the engine is humming, but anyone who has ever had a car knows that most of the time everything is just fine with cars, until one day, it just doesn't start:)

[yankeedem]

97. I know what you are talking about

I felt the same way when I used to visit family who at the time lived in Denton and Collin County Texas (near Dallas).

Miles of the same McMansions and McMinimansions. More under construction. Of course, entry to these complexes is only through a main boulevard, every street is a dead end inside the development. Better to keep out "undesirables".

There are some sidewalks, but since traffic on these boulevards moves at 65mph, how could you walk? Of course there are no buses to be found, and a train is something that carries freight, not commuters.

Mile after mile of farmland is being chewed up by ugly strip malls, with the same chain stores. You can't even buy a hamburger without going to a chain store.

When I visited, I always thought about how "out of touch" these suburbanites are, but reading your article it is us who is out of touch in a lot of ways. Who ever heard of driving children to school every morning? Don't kids walk to school? Why would you go to Olive Garden for Italian food when you could go to a restaurant with a real Italian chef and staff? Their world is different from mine, and I feel as hesitant and scared in theirs as they do in my world.

I don't get how all these strip malls survive, I live in Hudson County, NJ and with 500,000 people we have 1/10th the malls that they do.

I don't think it's a red/blue issue necessarily. However, suburbanites not exposed to issues of the poor are not likely to want to vote to help them more.

I have this discussion all the time- just recently about my FIL's prescription drugs- aren't there programs to pay for them? Well, no there are not. At least not adequate programs. Isn't there public housing that someone can move to if they are poor? Not enough. Don't single Moms get 1000's every month public assistance? No, they don't.

Whether a person insulates themselves in a urban area or in the exurbs, we lose touch with each other. This is another blowback from the car culture.

[paineinthearse]

99. I lived in the east bay twice

First time 1980-83, second late 80's. First time Walnut Creek, second Castro Valley.

The urbanification you speak of started in WC in the early 80's when Nordstrom and similar moved in. Tres chic. At that time Pleasanton was a rural area, then Blackhawk, a gated minnionair's community, and smaller develoopments started creaping southward. Then Hacienda park went in. Crow Canyon was full or horse ranches, I'll bet it's developed today.

What struck me odd then was when the temp dipped below 50 degrees, the valley would be choked with smoke from wood buring fireplaces. I was born in New England; we use the fireplace for heat, not ambiance, and usually when the temp is well below 40 degrees (our houses are insulated).

In another forum I read of a neighbor of yours parking his Civic in a WC public lot or garage. He returned to find a ticket. Apparently he had parked in a SUV-only space!

[ComerPerro]

101. How do they afford it? A lot of them are deep in debt

[3lefts]

102. I gather from the OP that

city=good, suburbs=bad.

I grew up in Philadelphia, the 4th largest city in the nation (at the time).

I lived in the same McRowhome, parked our car next to the same used McPOS, had the same McStoop or same patch of McLawn, ate the same McSkippy peanut butter sandwhiches, used McHeinz ketchup and ate McCampbell's soup, etc...as everyone else in the neighborhood. Isn't this just the inverse of the OP? Is this just as bad? If so, is everywhere bad then? Rhetorical questions.

Fact is, Philly has extraordinary museums, five star restaurants, a world class art museum and every other great thing that every great city has. My point is, does growing up in McMansion make you a worse person than growing up in McRowhouse? Why is this being held in such disdain? I hope to raise my children in McMansion. That doesn't mean they won't have access to or opportunities to experience all the cultural amenities that the city has to offer.

[IrateCitizen]

106. That's a tragically oversimplistic analysis

What the OP is decrying is the culture (or lack thereof) that the modern suburb seems to represent. Is this a 100% condemnation? No. But as a resident of a "bedroom community" in Westchester County, NY who has also lived in the midst of uncontrolled sprawl, I will say emphatically that suburban sprawl is little more than a cancer.

My town could be considered "suburban". After all, we're only 38 miles from Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan. I work in Manhattan and commute by train, along with many of my fellow residents. However, my town is actually still a town. My wife and I can walk to go out to eat, to go to the movies, the library, the bookstore, shops, etc. Furthermore, the busy sidewalks on the main streets provide a bustling public space that adds to a feeling of civic pride.

But this is clearly not the norm. All I have to do is travel to the nearby Orange, Putnam or Rockland Counties to see a vastly different suburbia -- not to mention New Jersey. This suburbia is one that is built on homogeneity. All communities have the same big-box stores and strip malls. If you want to go anywhere, you have to drive. Public transit is either substandard or non-existent. People all strive to live in oversized homes on postage-stamp lots with the ubiquitous SUV in the driveway, purchased more for status than need.

This is the way of consumerism. It's also the way of the virus, of the cancer cell. It's an existence that is dedicated to the debasement of the environment, not to mention a degrading of the human spirit.

One thing I noticed in Europe was how nice the cities were, and how much better people's lives were as a result. They actually INTERACTED with one another. They actually went for regular PICNICS in the parks, sometimes with as many as 18-20 people along the Seine in Paris. There was a tangible sense of community that was completely alien to the "culture" of the suburbs.

I'm not saying all suburbs are evil, especially if they are well-managed to create "towns". Those I have no problem with. But it seems the majority in America are now nothing more than swaths of concrete, asphalt, and the predictable chain stores and fast food joints. They're soulless. And they're destroying our environment and our lives in the process.

[ultraist]

111. excellent description!

There are a few very nice, high end suburbs as you mentioned. Westchester co. is very unusual compared to the majority of suburbs. Being one of the pockets for the very wealthy and an older community, there is more of an atmosphere of little towns with some culture (Shakespeare in the park, concerts, art galleries, antique shops, etc).

My parents used to live in New Canaan, CT, which is very close to Westchester co. and it's beautiful. BUT, areas like Greenwich, CT and those I mentioned, are not accessible to most. Housing is out of reach for most. 500k is the bottom rung of housing prices! So although these areas are not cultural wastelands or clear cut areas filled with trac houses, they are insulated.

The vast majority of American suburbs are sprawling areas that have been clear cut and littered with cheap, large tract houses and strip malls. The only entertainment is shopping at the megamall or eatting at a chain restaurant. To get anywhere, you must drive. There is little sense of community and often times, neighbors don't know eachother. Low density housing is very environmentally destructive.

Most Suburbs lack the qualities of both a town and a city. They are huge no man land areas, void of character and personality.

BTW, Paris is a dream city, IMO!

[3lefts]

112. Categorically disagree...

"What the OP is decrying is the culture (or lack thereof) that the modern suburb seems to represent".

So, if you grow up in McMansion (the suburbs) as opposed to McRowhouse (the city) you have less culture? Absolutely not. I lived just as far away from the Art Museum as did our nearest suburbanite. It doesn't mean they have more or less culture than I did. Furthermore, the Art Museum is in Philly, the Barnes Foundation the suburbs. Give me the Barners any day of the week. Simple enough?

How pretentious for one to judge where another chooses to live. Maybe I don't want to interact with my neighbors on a daily basis. Maybe I don't want to keep my music low or not be able bang my drums whenever I please because my next door neighbor will be infringed upon. If there was no demand for big-box stores and strip malls they would not exist. Maybe I don't want to share the local park and pool with a bunch of strangers and would rather invite my friends and family over to my large backyard to have a barbeque.

The hypocricy amazes me. Anyone who lives outside of the original 13 colonies is guilty of succumbing to "sprawl". Simplistic? Absolutely.

[GumboYaYa]

115. You misunderstand what was meant by culture.

The post to which you respond is discussing culture meaning the shared beliefs, values, and customs of a society. Things like compassion for others, the notion that all people are created equal, and that we should strive to leave Amercia in better shape than we found it. Not the eltist notion of culture that implies knowledge of a scoiety's art. music, philosophies etc.

We are losing our culture quickly in this country and the suburbanization of America is one reason for this (not the only and certainly not the source of all that is wrong with America, just one contributng factor). Typicaly, but not always, people who live in suburbs are cut off from people who are different from them. They work and live around people just like them. Instead of venturing into the community after work, they watch fake families on TV who share the same values they do. The restaurants they go to are chains where they do not develop real relationships with the people who work there and the owners are a bunch of stockholders with no vested interest in the community. As a result of this homgonization of life, we are losing compassion for those who are different from us and that compassion was once a fundamental part of American culture. All one has to do is look at the success of the Republican hate machine to see how easily Americans have become conditioned to reject anything different from the homogenous world they live in.

[bettyellen]

125. good clarifiaction, i agree completely.....

the brilliant thing about lving in a city is the diversity... and yeah, you have to swim in the same pool as strangers to exprience it fully.

[IrateCitizen]

123. Response

So, if you grow up in McMansion (the suburbs) as opposed to McRowhouse (the city) you have less culture?

Actually, I would say yes. But it's clear that we're not talking "culture" in the same way. When you lived in your rowhouse, how much did you see your neighbors? How much did you interact with them? Did you have a gang of other kids that you used to run around the neighborhood with and play? When you went somewhere, did you often walk or ride a bike, encountering many neighbors along the way?

I would guess that the answer is "yes" to all or most of the above. Now, do you know how these things add up to "culture"? It is because they help to foster a spirit of community through interaction with other people. Interaction is the first step toward the exchange of ideas and thoughts, which in turn is the first step toward us treating each other like human beings.

McMansions, OTOH, promote a lifestyle that features none of this. You don't walk around the neighborhood -- you get in your car (or SUV) and drive everywhere you have to go. That means you don't talk to your neighbors on a daily basis. Kids don't run around the neighborhood in large groups, playing outside all day -- they either sit inside and watch TV and play Nintendo, or their lives are so structured with extracurricular activities that they hardly have time to be a kid.

Do I believe that McMansions are totally "evil" while small, interactive communities are completely "good"? Hardly. Communities in all shapes and forms have their own problems. However, our lives are mostly richer through human interaction. Communities encourage human interaction. Suburban enclaves largely do not. Rather, they encourage consumption and the idea of "keeping up with the Joneses".

This emphasis, moving away from personal interaction and toward consumption is what fuels the big box stores and strip malls. There used to be a belief in America that "freedom" meant things like the freedom of speech, the freedom of assembly, the freedom to share ideas -- the Enlightenment ideals upon which the nation was founded. Those have become antiquated notions, and all of them have been replaced by the desire for the freedom to consume. When people abandon the sense of community that binds us together, that is what they turn to in order to fill the emptiness in their lives. And what happens is they consume more and more and more, looking for that happiness from buying things that just doesn't materialize, and they end up working long hours on jobs they hate, spending inadequate time with their kids and in their communities, just to support a lifestyle that doesn't give them any real or lasting fulfillment.

I'm not condemning anyone here. I'm simply saying that we've been suckered into believing in a source of happiness that largely doesn't exist. And it would be one thing if that bamboozling didn't have serious ecological and cultural consequences. But it does, and they're just beginning to bear true, with a much darker path ahead. Personally, I've chosen to move away from what I see as a self-destructive lifestyle toward a simpler and more fulfilling one. If you choose to remain in it, that's your choice. However, I'm not going to stop talking about it with others, in the hopes that they might see it as a better alternative as well.

Finally, your last statement is completely off base, a strawman that does nothing to address any of the points made in my initial post.

[Lorien]

126. Well said

I grew up in an older "leave it to Beaver" style suburban community that was only minutes from our city's downtown. I don't think it was only the closeness to all the cultural amenities or the old, varied architecture that contributed to my positive upbringing; I grew up during the 70s, during the sexual revolution and the gas crisis. Thinking for oneself was trendy, owning a big expensive car was not (the smaller the better back then). There were only four networks on TV, plus PBS, there were no VCRs or DVD players; if you wanted to see a movie, you went with your friends to a theater that only showed one or two pictures at a time. We had pot luck dinners with friends, went on camping trips or canoing and horseback riding with friends, we read and painted, we wrote letters..."shopping" was something you did before the school year started and before Christmas-it was not a recreational activity itself.

Someone noted on another thread yesterday that having woman friends has become nearly impossible because there was too much competition between women, and they were constantly having to "support' their friends by spending money at their Pampered chef, Longenberger, Avon or other sales "parties". It's true; many relationships are now based on consumerism, just as our society has turned it's focus to consumerism as a way of life. It's shallow it's unfullfilling. Read 'Affluenza"; if every human on the planet consumed as Americans do, we would need five human free planets to support their habits.It's simply an unsustainable lifestyle.

Every time I go to Europe, I marvel at the pedestrian malls in Paris, Nice, Geneva, Vienna, Amsterdam...even fashion obsessed Milano. The outdoor cafes are packed (and you're right-many groups of 18-20 people at one table) everyone is talking and laughing; they obviously have far deeper and richer relationship than we do (it's evident by the body language alone)! Our culture of consumerism is slowly killing us; it's suffocating our souls and destroying our planet. How many of us on this board are lonely? how many don't feel like they are "enough" because they don't own an iPod or a plasma TV? How many think that they would find happiness and life would be good if they only won the lottery? I've had a six figure income, and I've been desperately poor; in the latter, all one thinks about is money, in the former, one never thinks about money and that particular stress is gone, but the stress of loneliness from living in an emotionally bankrupt society is still very much there.

[IrateCitizen]

130. Thanks for a thoughtful response, Lorien...

And yes, I've read Affluenza. It's a fantastic book, and a real eye-opener.

My wife and I are dabbling in the living simplicity movement. Or, I guess I should say, I'm dabbling and she's along for the ride. One of the best books I read on this was Your Money or Your Life by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin. It does an excellent job of linking how so many of us are unhappy and lonely because we're consumed with the idea of working long hours at jobs we hate in order to keep up with mindless consumption patterns, and then offers a positive program to break free from that insanity and start living the life you really want to live. It essentially transforms your relationship with money, by getting you to realize that you essentially trade away your life's energy for money, and therefore you should take care of it and use it ways that bring you true fulfillment.

Personally, I am abandoning the field of engineering to become a history teacher (and possibly college professor after I get my PhD). Although it will mean less money (and less things), it will mean more leisure and more time to spend with family and friends. My wife is also changing careers from teaching to counseling because she just wants a job that makes her happy. My in-laws think we're crazy for taking jobs that make less money. Then again, their lives are based mainly on consumption patterns financed by long hours at jobs they don't like....

[Lorien]

137. Yes, "Your money or your life" is one that I've recommended

several times in the Economic Activism and Progressive living forum. I, too, am in the process of turning my back on my six figure animation and commercial product design careers and instead doing what I love; writing and illustrating children's books. I have all the "stuff' I need at this point, and only my medical bills are causing financial pain. Still, like you, I'd rather be doing a job I enjoy than working long hours on projects I care nothing about!

[Bridget Burke]

108. The rowhouses have been gentrified....

The peasants who lived there have been dispersed so yuppies can move in. San Francisco is a wonderful place, but I'd need to earn more than twice my current salary to live there.

I prefer the city myself, but don't regard all suburban dwellers as idiots.

[ultraist]

113. SF is very expensive!

It is one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. And yes, most areas have been gentrified as is happening in many cities.

I don't think any one said all surburbanites are idiots, but there has been discussion about the environment/culture of the vast majority of suburbs.

We've lived in a suburb for five years but are moving back to our old neighborhood, which is a city neighborhood, once the renovation on our historic house is complete. We enjoyed the space, the safety, and being closer to our kids International Montessori school, but now that they are older and no longer at that school, we are ready move back to a more diverse area. Not to mention, a heavily Democratic area!

Generally, I think many suburbs are very poorly planned. They are not built like the older towns were built, but created in a way that compromises a structure that facilitates a real community, so that big developers can profit more.

It's a lot cheaper for developers to clear cut and slap up builder grade homes, than put in roads, sidewalks and and one main economic center that resembles older towns or cities. This cheap and thoughtless planning creates a cultural wasteland full of no man land areas.

[UdoKier]

121. I was able to find a 2 bedroom in a nice SF neighborhood for LESS

than I could find in the 'burbs, it has a garage, and we don't have to spend a bundle riding BART into town every day.

But I know the notion of paying rent is anathema to a lot of people, and if you are a noermal person who insists on buying a house, you may as well stay away from the Bay Area altogether.

For us, the cultural and educational opportunities took precedence over having a 2000 sq. foot house with a big yard. It's TOTALLY worth the sacrifice to live here. If I didn't live here, I'd want to live in NYC - I love it there, too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

138. Yes, and perhaps if you take into account the savings in

not having to maintain two or three cars and not driving hundreds of miles per month, that house in the city isn't so expensive after all.

I went car-free for ten years in Portland when I realized that as a struggling new self-employed person, I was spending $250 a month on a car that I didn't really need, thanks to the superb transit system. I met my entire transportation needs for $55 a month.

Friends told me that I could get a suburban apartment bigger than my place on the edge of downtown Portland for $150 less per month, but I reminded them that I would have to buy a car to live in most of the less expensive apartments, and then where would I find the kinds of hangouts that exist in a city?

I have a car again living in Minneapolis, but it's an old clunker inherited from a family member and I drive it as little as possible. Still, gas, maintenance, repairs, and insurance take up a significant chunk of change.

I'm currently in one of the most pleasant urban villages in Minneapolis, and I can meet most of my daily needs by walking or taking the bus.

Yes, rents and houses are more expensive in the city, but they wouldn't be expensive if people didn't want to live there.

Interestingly, the Twin Cities, while sprawling like crazy in one sense, are also "imploding," in that condos and infill housing are springing up in both downtowns. Next year, one of the local grocery chains will open two supermarkets in the downtown area, and I predict that things will really take off then. After all, if we're approaching peak oil, then living within walking distance of where you work makes sense.

[bvar22]

143. The beginnings of the "implosion" are already visible.

Petroleum products are only going to get more expensive. Within the next five years, gasoline will double (maybe triple) in price. The 40 mile round trip commute will become cost prohibitive. Rail Lines and suburban business centers will mitigate the eventual suburban collapse, but won't stop it.

As the cost of commuting increases and wages stay stagnant, property values in the overextended suburbs will collapse. Most will be forced to move back into the cities or first ring subs. Only the very rich will be able to afford to stay in their gated suburban communities.

[ultraist]

225. I totally agree

If you want to stretch your buck on a home, you could move out to a desolate county in some Southern state. The size of the house is not everyone's first priority. IMO, your children will be a lot better off being exposed to diversity and a sophisticated culture. They will be better prepared to deal in the real world than if they were isolated in tv/mall land.

I love NYC too!

[UdoKier]

120. Just to clarify, I never called anybody an idiot.

I find suburbs like the one I described to be dull, vapid, soulless and scary, but I'm sure there are many good people there, but since everyone drives the same cars and wears the same clothes, it's a little hard to differentiate the freeper scum from the decent folk.

[Bridget Burke]

129. So--suburbanites aren't idiots--just "dull, vapid, soulless & scary"

I stand corrected!

[UdoKier]

132. No, the SUBURBS are thus. There are all manner of people there.

And there are certainly some "dull, vapid, soulless & scary" people in the city.

If you're going to "stand corrected", you should actually read the text you're referring to.

[Justitia]

135. I lived in a McRowhome too, w/a patch of McLawn - ha, ha!

I've lived in each scenario. Born and lived for a while in what is technically called the "suburbs" of Philly - Mayfair, right off Frankford ave - but most others outside PA would call that "city". My sister lives in Levittown, I call that the "suburbs". Yes, it was a McRowhome, but I am chuckling when I say that because it was a 50+ yr old house, certainly not gentrified by any means! We had the ubiquitous sloping, pittance of a weed patch for a "yard" and a rear-entry alley garage that NO ONE ever parked a car in. We played stickball in the streets and walked everywhere. Not a typical suburb.

Fast forward: moved to Texas, the suburbs of San Antonio for dad's job. Much bigger yard, no walking about as much. As an adult, moved to Dallas area suburbs and eventually exurbs. Did so for proximity of workplace campus, affordability of housing further out, better schools.

Now, as an empty-nester, could not wait (!) until the kids left and we could move into a much smaller condo within the CITY of Houston and love it.

I think a person's mindset and personal situation changes over time and with life changes, your cravings for genuine experience, variety and diverse interaction intensify after the kiddos are gone.

Anyway, that is just our experience and although I may move again in the future, the suburb part of my life is forever over. It had it's necessary chapter, I just want something different nowadays.

[markmalcom]

146. ..You grew up in "Mayfair off Frankford Avenue"...!!

...Just had to mention...That IS the neighborhood I grew up in!...Do you know Teesdale Street?...Please PM me...would love "to talk"..!:)

[Justitia]

178. I tried to PM you, but DU says you are too new to receive

Racking my brain to remember Teesdale!

Born living on Sheffield Ave.
Lived on Friendship St.
Grandmom lived off Cottman Ave.
Mom still lives on Shelmire Ave.
Hung out at Roosevelt Mall.
Baptized at St Bernard's, grade school at St. Matthews, HS at St Huberts (Torresdale Ave).
Went to Father Judge dances!

Any of this sound familiar? :)

[3lefts]

195. OT Justitia....LMAO....

North Catholic and Little Flower here, but loved the Hubert's girls more!!!

[Justitia]

207. awwww.....

yes, we Bambies were way more lovable than those girls! :loveya:

I just have to tell you 3 lefts, your post about the "McRowhomes", "used McPOSs", "McStoops" and "McLawns" had me laughing until I was crying! Probably not for reasons anyone but us and the other Philly guy would understand - hee, hee.

[markmalcom]

213. Absolutely!....I went to St. Bernards elementary and

certainly know St. Huberts...If your grandmother lived on Cottman, you might remember Teesdale as the Street which had the big PSFS bank right at the corner of Frankford and Teesdale...The intersection of Frankford and Cottman (old Mayfair Movies)was just a block away from me!!...Yes!.."Homies"!...If I'm too new to get private messages, either of you can email me at [email protected].
..will be great to talk to ya!:7

[CAN_for_Kerry]

107. there all in it togeather

America has gated communities so that people are forced to drive; therefore, the auto industry benefits.

The mall, superstores, etc. are all a driving distance away so people get fat; therefore, the diet industry benefits and the clothing industry benefits as your waist size goes up you purchase higher sized clothing to account for your personal "expansion".

Where you work is also a driving distance away; therefore, the fast food industry and convience food industry benefits, because your in your car so much all you have time for is to digest these foods; therefore the food industry benefits.

Then there is the fear industry; sell those alarms, guns, and those "protective" gated communities, because people are so afraiiiid!

Companies; there all into city planning for the sake of making money!

[Rapcw]

110. I live in Antioch, CA in the Bay Area

And it truly is a "bedroom community". It's about 45 minutes from anywhere real businesses are, and we have a population of 100,000. All the businesses here are chain stores.

[ultraist]

114. Isn't that where they filmed Edward Scissorhands?

Kidding! ;) :)

[wtmusic]

116. Living in the suburbs encourages consumption

That's the only thing wrong with it. It's inescapable. You use more land, more water, more electricity, more gasoline; you create more trash, more pollution, more sewage. There is a feeling like your resources are inexhaustible.

[12345]

139. I live in the city, and I find that it encourages consumption.

I am surrounded by shops and restaurants. Sounds like a consumer's paradise to me. I have to drive out of town to recycle, and I have nowhere to compost, so I have much more garbage than I've ever had before. We use much more electricity than before, because we need to use our electric lights even during the day - not as many windows when you're surrounded on three sides by buildings.

[UdoKier]

148. We consume less here.

We have a composting program here in SF, we eat at home mostly, but are glad to eat at the local restaurants, knowing the money will stay here in the community, rather than going to some out of town corporation and its overpaid CEO. We don't drive much, when we do, it's only a couple miles at most.

The only thing you point out that applies to us is the electricity - we do use the lights more, because of the lack of windows - HOWEVER, we use MUCH less in heating and air conditioning because the weather conditions here at the coast are less extreme than the inland suburbs, where 100 degree days are common in summer, and the temps dip to freezing in winter.

[12345]

150. In San Francisco, we're better than you, and we know it.

[UdoKier]

153. No, we just give a damn.

You hate the city, fine, get out. There will always be someone to move in and take your place.

[12345]

155. No, I don't hate cities, I just hate your self righteous attitude.

[UdoKier]

157. Yes, it's much worse than your dismissive, defensive one...

:eyes:

It's pretty well-documented that the suburban lifestyle is MUCH more wasteful of land and resources, and you made a pathetic attempt to disprove that FACT.

But I don't really care about your "attitude". You have something to say, say it. Have a point.

[12345]

169. My original post dealt with consumerism,

not the environmental impact of suburban development. I was saying that I don't see urban communities as being any less prone to materialistic consumerism than suburban communities.

Having studied urban planning for the last ten years, I concur with your statement that the suburban lifestyle, in general terms, is much more wasteful of land and resources than the urban lifestyle. However, this is only in very general terms, at a density of one house per acre, or fewer, and without a mixed-use component. When comparing a mixed-use suburb, with a higher density, and a city, the city loses. The levels of pollution and storm-water run-off are hard to overcome.

Clearly, cities fail to meet many people's social and emotional needs. The real challenge is to create communties that meet people's needs AND more efficiently utilize resources. It's easy to criticize others, but what is your solution?

[IrateCitizen]

216. SOLUTIONS!!!

Ahhh... yes. Now we're talking! What are the solutions? I think you hit on a few of them here.

Mixed-use zoning is a big key. Zoning by SIZE as opposed to USAGE is a good start. That way, you can have small shops and business offices in the same neighborhood as small single-family homes. And you can place larger office buildings and such in the same area as multi-family dwellings like townhouses and co-ops. And you use public transit, walkways, and bike paths to link it all together. Especially if you resist the urge to put in 4-lane main arteries and curbed cul-de-sac streets, you will actually encourage people to consider transit options OTHER than driving. Of course, you also have to invest in those transit networks to the point that it becomes somewhat convenient for people of means to use them.

Then, you have to place ample "public space" to facilitate people gathering together rather than retiring to their homes and watching TV. I'm talking about nice public parks -- and lots of them. I'm talking about community centers. I'm talking about places that people can just go and sit and meet together without having to worry about BUYING something.

The key in all of this is building infrastructure that FACILITATES community-building, rather than IMPEDES it. That requires much more of a "town" structure that is constructed in a way that challenges existing development paradigms. Of course, this is already underway in some areas of the country -- from what I've heard, most notably Portland, OR.

[GumboYaYa]

218. Sidewalks...ahh, such a simple idea.

And I mean real sidewalks where trees separate the walk from the avenues so that people don't fear for their lives when they walk. There is no better way to meet and see your neighbors than to walk around your neighborhood. Tree-lined avenues add such a nice look to a neighborhood and tell people that you are welcome here.

Also, the way we design homes, get rid of the giant front facing three-car garages that tell us the car is the most important thing. Build porches again so that people can sit out there and talk to the neighbors walking by on the sidewalks.

Mixed use developments that include small businesses are esszential for a community. It is so much nicer to buy groceries from people you know than from a giant chain store. My fish monger knows my order before I do most of the time. If I go in at the end of the day on Saturday, she loads me up with all the stuff that she doesn't want to keep until Monday, for free.

We have gotten so accustomed to the way our suburbs are built that we have lost the ability to look critically at the surroundings and say there is a better way to do this.

And please, please stop building four lane highways that cut up our communities and force people to use cars. Ughhhh, I hate cars.

[IrateCitizen]

220. I'm totally on board on the "front porch" idea!!!

I love front porches. Time was that once, people would sit on front porches and their neighbors would come by and visit, or vice versa. That time is long gone, replaced by the backyard patio.

I also can't stand the garage as the centerpiece of the front of a house. It's just plain UGLY.

I saw an interesting thing in Sierra Magazine recently that talked about how in Holland they actually construct streets that are narrower and MORE dangerous through residential areas, so that people will drive very slowly and that pedestrians can walk in the street anc kids can play in the street. It's quite the opposite from the wide, curbed streets in the typical suburban development that allow cars to travel 40 mph and prohibit kids from venturing outside on those streets. Perhaps that's another thing to work into the mix. Who knows -- it might actually DISCOURAGE the use of cars for anything other than longer trips, thus facilitating walking and biking, and leading to a more healthy lifestyle?

[ginnyinWI]

117. I enjoyed your post

I live in a suburban community outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and I hear ya! I felt totally alone out here with my Kerry/Edwards sticker on my car. But in fact, my state is blue, although my county is red. But even so, one out of three of us out here voted for Kerry! And finding that out encouraged me. The main point I wanted to make is that so many people are just plain apathetic about politics and world events, other than to put those yellow "support the troops" magnets on their cars. When there is no election going on, they never think beyond their consumming of goods and services, as you say. They are living a very sterile, homogenized, and mass-produced American life, and are to be pitied, not envied. The suburb you described could be transplanted right into my area in Wisconsin as well. Just add a little snow!

My daughter lived in SF for a time, and I've visited several times, and believe me, you've got a richer environment for your kids to grow up in. Congratulations!

[UdoKier]

122. But isn't Milwaukee a very nice city?

I haven't been, but I've heard a lot of nice things about both Milwaukee and Minneapolis/St. Paul. (I would have a rough time with the cold though...)

[bvar22]

134. Urban Minneapolis / St Paul here.

We do own The Largest Mall in America.
Never go there.
Many great old city neighborhoods, lots of independent Mom and Pop businesses.

Love the cities...hate the burbs (RED).

"Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky,
Little boxes, little boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same." ---Malvina Reynolds

[Lydia Leftcoast]

140. I go to Mall of America only

when my brothers insist on it. We have a tradition of a Christmastime siblings' outing, and since one brother lives in Bloomington and the other in Woodbury (two places that epitomize the sprawlburb), MOA is a good central location. It has an eight-screen movie theater and some upscale chain restaurants.

On the whole, though, I find it confusing and depressing and would rather shop in downtown Minneapolis any day.

[ginnyinWI]

149. I like the city of Milw. well enough

It has a unique architectural style that I haven't seen in other cities,(lots of brick), and has some nice attractions, yes. The new addition to the art museum being one, and the Lakefront area (Lake Michigan). We have a great zoo, museum, etc. And we don't have any air pollution yet, to speak of, which really bothers me when I visit a city like Chicago. Milwaukee is cleaner and friendlier than Chicago. Contrary to public perception, most of the breweries are now gone. All we have left are the smaller independent ones, just like a lot of cities have.

[prozacnation]

128. I live in Dublin and I don't appreciate your comments

First of all Dublin is hardly a white community. In my neighborhood I am the minority by far. Dublin is very popular with both Asian and Indian families, among other cultures. Dublin is a melting pot just like any other community in the Bay Area. Did you happen to look around at the faces when you were at the theater?

Yes, the houses in my community look relatively the same like a million other communities in this country. Would I prefer a unique house? Sure, but this is what's available. My housing choice doesn't define who I am, but rather what homes were for sale when we needed to buy one. Would you prefer we pitched a tent in protest of the architecture?

My housing choice doesn't make me a middle class republican who drives an SUV and puts lunchables in my child's lunch, etc. I really resent your implications..

My husband works three jobs so that I can stay home with our children. We scrape by every month and it's not easy. However, his job is here and so we stay here. Frankly I could think of far worse places to raise my children.

We didn't vote for Bush and we teach our children right from wrong. Our children appreciate diversity and it shows in their beliefs and friendships. Just because we don't live in San Francisco doesn't mean we are Bush loving, money wasting white people. As my five year old would say - HOW RUDE!

I can't speak for every family in Dublin but I can speak for mine.. you don't know me and you have no right to judge me or my community based on one outing to a movie.

[UdoKier]

145. I didn't say it was all-white or all-republican.

The theater I was in was filled with a majority of white people, but I saw others... And I said the people seemed nice enough.


I also didn't accuse anybody of being republican. You should re-read the post. It's about the ugliness and conformity of suburbia, not a blanket judgment on the politics of people living there. (although to a degree, it is a critique on their tastes and the apparent dominance of CONSUMPTION over all else.)

Don't be angry at me because you are too lazy to read through a post.

And I'm not judging your "community", though I think it would be a stretch to call any stretch of suburbia that ...

[Stew225]

136. It was well written to me and kept me reading

and enjoying your entire piece. Further, I very much respect your values. Thanks for sharing.

[UdoKier]

151. Please understand, I *AM NOT* blanket anti-suburb.

I despise suburbs that are built in the way I've described, anchored around hideous stucco malls full of corporate shops and big-box stores, a dearth of parks and green space, too low density and poorly planned with nothing in walking distance. I'm aware that there are some suburbs that have bucked that trend and tried building in a more sensible way, with back alleys for cars, shopping within walking distance, and they deserve to be saluted.

I think there is a place for the suburb, the city is not for everybody, but they need to be more ecologically sustainable, and offer more diversity of activity and built on a more human scale that lets people get the hell out of their cars.

[nashville_brook]

163. free-market city planning is an oxymoron

the whole reason to have local goverrnment is to intevene in malignant growth.

[Coexist]

152. I choose to live in the suburbs - rant

I have three children, a two-story home and an SUV.
Those of us who live here do a lot to make our neighborhoods a great place for our children. I canvassed my neighborhood for MoveOnPac and we represent a huge cross-section of people.

I run a 300 family Pop Warner program that is second to none. I have been a Girl Scout Leader, PTA board member, and La Leche League leader. I started a playgroup, a Bunko group and a Friday night neighborhood Happy Hour in my immediate neighborhood. I know everyone on my street well enough to let my three kids run around unobserved for hours. I have at least 3 children who are not my own in my house or on my backyard playset everyday - whether or not my kids are there.

I am a passionate liberal, yet I can converse about life, bitch about whatever, or argue politics with my neighbors who don't share my views. Are we supposed to all move to urban areas so you will accept us - or is it better to have "scary liberals" living among "evil conservatives" so we can all see that we are just people slogging through life as best we can.

My neighbors accept me the way I am - and I do the same for them. Your bigotry is disgusting. How dare you assume you know all about every person who inhabits a 1/2 acre lot home.

We are all on this earth - where ever we choose to live and we all work hard to make it a better place - either for ourselves, our children or the rest of humanity. We will never all agree how to go about it - but keep your filthy generalizations to yourself.

I don't sit around wallowing in my self-importance over the choices I have made for my life - you need to get over yourself. I began reading this thread ready to take it with a grain of salt - but I can't believe you people call yourselves democrats. I am ashamed of the classist tone you all feel so comfortable taking. Walt Starr was right, in my opinion.

[UdoKier]

156. What the fuck ever.

So defensive...wonder why?

"classist" Hell yeah. I care more about people in my economic class than I do about people in yours. If I don't, who the hell will?

You may be a "liberal", but you are participating in a lifestyle every bit as destructive to the environment as any strip mine or coal-fired plant.

It's great that you're socially active, I know that it takes twice the effort to do so in a community where kids have to be driven, EVERYWHERE.

But your absurdly hostile tone belies a great ignorance of what my post was even about. Have you ever even lived in a real community?

[Coexist]

158. I grew up in a steel town - my father worked in the plant

and resent your idea that some communities are "real" and others aren't. What makes yours more real than mine?

And the people in "my" class do a lot to help those who aren't there. We raise money, provide scholarships, run food drives, volunteer... and not to make ourselves feel better - it is to give back to a world that has given to us.

My REAL community is also inhabited by living breathing human beings that care. We are involved in each others lives and are there to help out in a pinch - whether by dropping off a meal to a new mom, or driving - YES DRIVING someone's child to practice (sorry, the football and base ball fields won't fit in our immediate neighborhood - they are in the Rec Center - that they are expanding to fit a skate park in, right next to the public library ) when they can't. My kids also bike or walk to the Rec Center for a pick up game of basketball, to play on the playground or swim with their friends in the summer. That is how us vapid, Capri-Sun drinking elitists spend the hotter months.

It is NOT twice as difficult to be socially active here - it is extremely easy. I walk out my door and park my chair at the end of my driveway - my neighbors do the same - and we interact. Have you ever lived in the suburbs?

My hostile tone was a reaction to your slandering my way of life over and over again as if it is okay for us to act as your punching bag. And to the many people who high-fived you for doing so.

[UdoKier]

164. The people staying at the Disney World Hotel Complex

are real, breathing human beings, with real concerns, but that doesn't make Disney World a real community.

A REAL community is not walled off and cloistered away from "lower" classes, so that its inhabitants' offspring never have to interact with poor people and minorities.

I came from a 'burb, and am INTIMATELY familiar with the organizations you mention. My Mom was a Junior Leaguer, and they used to do all kinds of fundraising for the dirty little people that they sometimes glanced at from their shiny new cars, but it was a pittance compared to what they spent on their own lavish lifestyles, and much of it was about stroking their own inflated egos - much like the tycoons who donate money to a hospital to build a new wing, but rather than doing it anonymously, make sure that the wing is named after themselves.

And I see you're from Florida - by far the absolute WORST kind of suburbia. Poor quality homes, flat, oppressive, ugly... a lot of the PUBLIC parks there actually charge you to just go in. From Kendall to W. Broward to W. Palm Beach County, it's all identical sprawl. I briefly lived in the Miami suburbs and was so happy to get the hell OUT.

I would NEVER live in a suburb again. Kudos to you for the good things you're into. Sure, some people are active like yourself, but you know damn well that's not the norm.

[Coexist]

168. Real communities ARE the people who inhabit them.

"A REAL community is not walled off and cloistered away from "lower" classes, so that its inhabitants' offspring never have to interact with poor people and minorities."

PLEASE. And why do you think we have no minorities in our community? Three of the people on my street speak Spanish as their first language. There are many African-American families on adjacent streets - yes they make a good income too. So what.

As for income diversity, there are many trailer parks interspersed with sub-divisions here. Because they are a mile away instead of next door makes my life petty? My kids play with these kids on sports teams, they go to school with them, they run into them at the Rec Center, they come to my house - my kids have sleepovers with them (gasp) at their homes. I don't judge children by where they live - I have lived in a poor neighborhood and I know that I was a decent person. My children are taught that through my interactions with their friends and their parents. I put myself through college waiting tables and tending bar - same as many of my neighbors. Just because we can afford to pay for our children's education doesn't make us plastic. We do buy things we don't need sometimes - it supports local businesses - is that bad? We do have many family owned restaurants and florists, as well as some friends who own franchises with fast-food chains or Blockbuster. or The UPS store. Do they not count as real people?

Farmer's here retire and sell their land to developers for a mint. They worked hard all their lives, struggled with poverty and want a nice retirement. I will not condemn them for that.

You are a snob. People like me ARE the norm here. I'm sorry we don't fit the image you would like us to so you can feel superior to us.

[GumboYaYa]

172. Wow, I think you are taking this way too personally.

Sorry if it rocks peoples' safe worlds to have to think about the inconsistencies in the way they live their lifes and the values they espouse, but the reality is that suburban sprawl has a very negative impact on the environment and undermines the cultural values that we hold dear in America. Maybe your neighborhood avoids some of these problems by being more of a community than most suburban neighborhoods, but your experience is far from the norm. If you have managed to create a suburban environment like you describe, more power too you and I applaud it.

I have seen virtually no personal attacks on this therad from those advocating urban renewal. I have seen a tremendous amount of defensiveness from those unwilling to examine how their lifestyles may not be entirely consistent with progressive values. For some reason Walt and others seem to think that when one talks about the suburbs, they mean "my suburban home". I suspect a lot of that is just the unwillingness to take a self-critical look at their own lifestyles.

I readily admit that cities have multitudes of problems. When we discuss those problems, I don't take that as a personal attack on me. Why can we not discuss the problems of suburbia without being accused of "bigotry" and making personal attacks? No place is perfect, yet suburbanites seem to feel their is absolutely nothing wrong with suburbia.

[UdoKier]

174. I love how *I'm* a "snob"...

Last I checked, I wasn't the one with a wall around my neighborhood or house to keep out the "others".

And I don't have to point out the few minorities living in my neighborhood as proof that it's "diverse", or that my kids occasionally see poor kids at school or at baseball practice. I am a minority here, and there is no clear majority here - and that's kist fine.

We all know the story, white suburbanites living in a 90% white area point to their affluent minority neighbors as proof of their diversity, but then as the percentage of whites hits about 70%, the flight of whites to the next exurb out accelerates and the process is repeated.

But hey, as long as you voted for Kerry, it's a sustainable lifestyle - they're environmentalists because they recycle their pop bottles and drink filtered water (or those damn polluting bottled waters).

[GumboYaYa]

176. Remember when homes had front porches and people sat on

the front porch at night. I'm still a front porch sitter. As a result, I know virtually every person who lives in my neighborhood. It is not uncommon fror a neighbor to share a glass of wine or even dinner with us on a warm spring evening.

One thing that gets me about many suburban dwellings is the prominent garage that dominates the facade of the house. What says "don't even bother trying to get to know this family" like a closed off garage where one never has to come face-to-face with their neighbors?

I think that we forget how the way we construct our surroundings impacts our lifes. Suburbs do not have to be so bad and some aren't. They can be built where you have mixed use with businesses near residential areas. Sidewalks with tree-lined avenues would be easy to construct. Is it really so hard to offer ten or twelve home styles to choose from instaed of two or three? Even higher density dwellings could easily be added. Unfortunately, we live in an age where zoning and use laws have been applied in many instances to isolate commerce so that you have to drive to do anything and segregated people into neighborhoods where every one in the neighborhood is from the same socio-economic class.

[Coexist]

181. enough of the I'm afraid of diversity stuff, okay.

"Last I checked, I wasn't the one with a wall around my neighborhood or house to keep out the "others".

I wanted a yard for my kids to play in, not to keep anyone out. Big difference. I lived for two years in St. Thomas - I was waaaaay in the minority there. So what. I don't feel special because I experienced that. It was where I lived - big f'ing deal. Is that what you look for in a neighborhood? I don't check the demographic when I house shop, I check the schools. I met my first husband in St. Thomas - he was a local. We moved to Florida after Hurricane Hugo. Does that make me more of a liberal for you - is that good enough? I didn't just live in the midsts of minorities - I married one - wooo hoo - I rock.

"And I don't have to point out the few minorities living in my neighborhood as proof that it's "diverse", or that my kids occasionally see poor kids at school or at baseball practice."

You were the one who implied that there was no racial or economic diversity in the suburbs - I was correcting you. And they don't "see" poor kids - they are friends with children of all economic groups - I don't make a big deal about it because it isn't. Do I have to live in a city to raise open-minded kids? That is absurd.

"But hey, as long as you voted for Kerry, it's a sustainable lifestyle - they're environmentalists because they recycle their pop bottles and drink filtered water (or those damn polluting bottled waters"

Not putting cities down - I like cities - but how are they good for the environment? We also have a lot of trees and parks here. Yes, we drive more - is that your only beef?

[UdoKier]

184. The beef is at every level of the lifestyle.

It's not just the countless unnecessary miles travelled in the unnecessarily gas-guzzling SUV, it's the increased amount of trash produced by the drive-thru fast-food joints, the obesity caused by the same, as well as the sit-down chain restaurants where one serving has enough food to feed 2 or 3 people,

It's heating and air-conditioning 3 or 4000 square feet of house that are essentially empty all day. It's that you can't get anything that's not made by a huge corporation or shop anyplace that isn't a huge chain.

Christ, I could go on and on...

I married a "minority" too, and I agree on that one - so what?

I was a minority in Japan, and I developed a real appreciation for cities where transit is readily available anywhere, and people of every economic class live in close proximity to one another. I loved that everyone pumps their used bath water into the washer to wash the clothes, that nobody uses a clothes dryer, that every trash can on the street has a place for aluminum, a place for plastic, a place for paper. There is a real effort to preserve the environment there, whereas most Americans just pay it lip service.

[Coexist]

187. Do people in cities do those things?

My point - and what you have been missing by a long shot - is that people are people. They are not divided into vapid and cultured by their address - it is by what they choose to do with their lives. And there are many who live here who I am proud to call friends. They are a diverse group - but our husbands and kids sometimes make us crazy all the same, whether they are a CEO or a house painter.

Why is a Burger King wrapper worse than a Chinese take out box? And by the way - the vast majority of women I interact with here cook dinner every night. If we eat out - it is not fast food - it is in a sit-down restaurant. I see more people walking around downtown Tampa with partially wrapped burgers than here in the burbs, so I truly don't get that point.

And most of the "chains" around here are owned by people in this community (franchises) so to me they are local businesses. I know the owners and a good deal of the employees if I am a "regular" there. Their baby sister might babysit for me. My mom is a cashier at the local Publix where I live. I am proud to see her there, and all my friends wait in her line. We are all JUST PEOPLE. We read, we keep informed as best we can. AND NO I am NOT a special case, so get off that.

My neighborhood is close because we CHOSE to get to know each other across the lawn, not across the hallway, WTF is the difference? There are lonely people in cities of millions, who crave human interaction just like us. Every neighborhood I have lived in has accomplished this, not because we want to flaunt our differences, but because we have so much in common. It is not hard - open your mouth and talk to your neighbor - put out a flyer in your neighbors mailboxes asking them if they want to start a Bunko group. I don't understand why you are saying every place I have lived is an exception to the rule. I think in that case the rule must be wrong.

[UdoKier]

189. You make your case eloquently here...

So I won't try to tear at your argument.

You seem to take this as an attack on the people who live in suburbs - for a few of these posters, it probably is.

For me, it's the totally broken suburban model of growth. I don't blame suburbanites for living in the wasteland they live in - I blame developers and city planners for failing to make communities that will be sustainable in five, ten, twenty years from now, because your kids and mine will probably still be in school when gasoline hits $6/gal.


(BTW the reason you see people in downtown Tampa walking around with burgers and not in the burbs, is because NOBODY WALKS IN THE BURBS!)

[Coexist]

190. Just for fun...

"is because NOBODY WALKS IN THE BURBS"

Then you are not out with me and the many, many others at 6:30 a.m. every weekday.

[UdoKier]

198. I'm not talking about an evening stroll...

... after the hellish Florida heat dies down slightly. (God, I don't miss that.) I'm talking about walking from one place to another, like, as in a form of transportation...

[ultraist]

227. LMAO!!!

Don't forget, it takes a hell of a lot more natural resources for heat/ac/electric/water to maintain a big house, than it does a smaller one. OH! And let's not forget the pesticides and water for the lawns. Superficially grown lawns are very destructive to the environment. Additionally, the new building materials they use are toxic.

This of course does not mean all surburbanites are idiots, no one here as said that. But anyone who has considered factors such as: sustainability (environmental issues), social health, architectural diversity, racial and economic diversity, knows that sprawling, clear cut suburbs are not conducive for optimizing these factors.

[Coexist]

177. So sorry - must be sensitive or my time of the month or something...

you are being a PARENT -- those sprawsters just drop their kids off at the mall to fend for themselves

saw around me people whose apparent primary function is to consume, consume, consume,

where they won't be trained from day one to just eat burgers and fries and sugar-water

BTW your kids are absolutely lucky to have parents like you.

You are a credit to our nation and a small ray of hope for the future.

If your neighborhood actually has some real nature and places to walk, you are fortunate.

Tells me the majority of suburbanites are fucking idiots

suburbs are made for businesses to make money -- not for human development and growth

I was stunned by the acute vapidness of it all.

And all these folks in the burbs , some of them are just getting along the only way they know because they're afraid of anything else; new, different

It's like living in a cultural wasteland where sports, reality TV, and Britney Spears are the pinnacle of cultural achievement

I know plenty of suburbanites.


Especially from work. And they are really good at repeating Fox News talking points, verbatim

To them, people like us, who actually spend hours poring over newspaper articles from home and abroad, demanding details rather than just a broad-brush picture must seem obsessive.

I do think the entire lifestyle is destructive, wasteful, and so fucking useless. Suburbia is the VERY reason that I'm a libertarian. First and foremost, I'm against "national-brand consciousness," because it encourages living outside of one's sphere, and turns everyone into the mindless drones that we've waxed negative about, in this thread

It's an existence that is dedicated to the debasement of the environment, not to mention a degrading of the human spirit.

The only entertainment is shopping at the megamall or eatting at a chain restaurant. To get anywhere, you must drive. There is little sense of community and often times, neighbors don't know eachother. Low density housing is very environmentally destructive.

Instead of venturing into the community after work, they watch fake families on TV who share the same values they


you get in your car (or SUV) and drive everywhere you have to go. That means you don't talk to your neighbors on a daily basis. Kids don't run around the neighborhood in large groups, playing outside all day -- they either sit inside and watch TV and play Nintendo, or their lives are so structured with extracurricular activities that they hardly have time to be a kid.

I find suburbs like the one I described to be dull, vapid, soulless and scary, but I'm sure there are many good people there, but since everyone drives the same cars and wears the same clothes, it's a little hard to differentiate the freeper scum from the decent folk

They are living a very sterile, homogenized, and mass-produced American life, and are to be pitied, not envied

And I'm not judging your "community", though I think it would be a stretch to call any stretch of suburbia that ...

My Mom was a Junior Leaguer, and they used to do all kinds of fundraising for the dirty little people that they sometimes glanced at from their shiny new cars

[UdoKier]

179. Wow - so much TRUTH in one post.

Thanks for putting it all together so succinctly.

(with the exception of the comments about the Faux News talking points - that was about my co-workers, who are mostly suburbanites IN FLORIDA, and not all suburbanites in general)

[GumboYaYa]

182. But for one post in that whole string, there are no personal

attacks. Every single post you used was a general statement about suburbia. Just b/c you live in suburbia does not make it about you specifically. Not to mention that virtually every quote is a supportable fact.

Again, I'm sorry if general discussion of suburbia rocks your world so much that you can't engage in a real discussion and have to resort to some defensive post about how you don't fit any of the general descriptions of suburbia. Well maybe you don't, but open your eyes and look around b/c the vast majority of sububria fits the posts you cited exactly.

Maybe you have been successful in avoiding these problems in your neighorhood, but instead of being so defensive, why not talk about the things that make your neighborhod different so others can learn?

If you are making a complete defense of all of suburbia and not just your little slice of it, I stand by all the quotes you listed.

[Coexist]

183. My point is that I have lived in three different

suburbs, and not one of them fits your description of the suburbs that I live every day.

Generalizations and intolerance are never okay with me.

[GumboYaYa]

185. Generalizations are not good when talking about people.

We are talking about development trends across the country. generalizations are the only thing that make sense in that context. To talk about specifics in that context would drag us into the mundane and have little meaning for most people. For example, I can talk specifically about Wildwood a suburb of St. Louis that requires almost an hour drive to downtown, but no one else would know what I am talking about. I could also talk about Old Town St. Charles, a newer development that has incorporated some of the design and zoning tecjhniques I have advocated, but again no one would know what I am talking about. Unfortunately, we do understand suburbia in general, b/c real estate development has taken a common course across the country. I think all of the posters with a true interest in design, development and zoning, recognize that there are some innnovate suburban developments that use community concepts, but theses are the vast minority.

Equating disdain for suburban development to racial or religious intolerance is a canard of the worst sort. Sorry, but advocating sustainable land use policies is not intolerance of any person. It is intolerance of a system that is destroying the environment and culture. In my book we should be intolerant of those things.

[Coexist]

188. but it was not just suburban development they were attacking

it was the people who live there. That would be me. My anger was over people who know nothing about me telling me who I am.

Some were discussing sprawl - but others were maligning suburbanites as people who have no sense of community and were careless parents.

[12345]

191. I agree. I believe that all things being equal, most people would

choose the type of community advocated by the anti-suburbanites. However, things are rarely equal. Often, the choice comes down to schools, safety, cost, proximity to work, etc. I don't think people should be condemned because they've chosen to live in a suburb for one reason or another.

Monsanto and Ford have built "green" buildings, does that undo the environmental damage that they've done? I don't think that living in a suburb undoes anything good that a person has done. It's about balance.

[GumboYaYa]

193. I hope it is clear that my concern is with the impact that our zoning,

design and development policies and laws have had on the environment in which people live. It is possible to develop suburbs that are real communities with diverse peoples and businesses. I have seen it with my own eyes. Unfortunately, that is not the norm.

I think that the environments in which we live does cause some people to become vapid and bad parents and many people identify that with suburbia. You have seen some of that on here. Your point is well taken that vapid people who are bad parents live everywhere and self-aware people who are great parents are also everywhere. You get no argument from me on that point, but I also think that there is a reason that the suburbs and exurbs went heavily for the Republicans and the cities went heavily for the Democrats.

[Coexist]

196. Well then Udo and Gumbo - truce

I have to cook dinner now - it's what I do!

[GumboYaYa]

197. Yeah right, you're headed to McDonalds........

you can't fool me. :)

[UdoKier]

200. Naw, she's upscale.

She's going to get the "Bloomin' Onion" at ApplebeeOliveGardenChilisMacaroniOutbackSteakhouse!

;)





:puke:

[movie_girl99]

159. i live in a burb north of Dallas

We moved here 14 years ago because we were able to get more house for our money and the schools are really good. Like another poster mentioned, our neighborhood is not all white but very diverse in culture. On my street alone we have neighbors from Korea, Vietnam, Pakistan and Africa and a new family from Argentina. When we lived in the city most of our neighbors were either white or Hispanic, not much diversity there. the crime rate was awful and we heard gun fire regularly not to mention that we were robbed three times in three years.

I miss being close to the museums, zoo and lovely parks with huge trees but we can still drive to those places. I don't like that there are only a few floor plans to choose from and most houses look similar but i feel like it was a good move for our family and a nice place to raise my kids. I have met some like minded people in my area because of my K/E bumper sticker that i had never known, so I'm not totally alone.I too am amazed at the plastic people who all drive new shiny cars and buy their kids $30,000 cars for their 16th b-day and i have taught my kids not to envy them but to feel sad that their parents probably work jobs they hate and are in CC debt up to their eyeballs.

[UdoKier]

166. Well, Dallas and Houston are exceptional.

Both are consistently in the top 5 cities nationwide for violent crime rates. I would not be too eager to live in either of those central cities.

There are a lot of much safer cities out there...


If I was forced to live in Texas and had my druthers, I'd have to pick El Paso, or San Antonio or Austin, in that order...

[movie_girl99]

173. i lived in El Paso for a year

and it was a nice place. I have been to Austin many times as its only 3 or so hours from here. But i cant justify moving my kids from the neighborhood and friends they've had since kindergarten. Plus the fact that we have jobs here. sometimes people don't have total control over where we end up.My son will graduate in 5 years and i do plan on moving back to the city when schools are no longer an issue though.

[UdoKier]

175. I'm not suggesting you move.

Just my personal druthers. I like the character of those towns the best. I have a lot of relatives in the 'burbs north of Dallas, all the way up to Montague County.

If you can handle the traffic there, you're a stronger man than I...


Oh, wait - looking at your screen name, the "man" doesn't apply.

Serves me right for only looking at your Napoleon avatar...

[movie_girl99]

222. thats cool

i didn't take offense to your original post. I just wanted to make a point that many of us suburbanites live there for different reasons and some of us would like to live elsewhere. I personally am looking forward to urban life again. I want a small loft apt, no yard and be able to walk or use public transportation and not have 2 cars.

Napoleon is an icon in our house. We loved the film so i made him my avatar.

[alittlelark]

209. Here in the Bay Area the 'burbs (such as Dublin)

are incredibly diverse racially. The inner part of our megalopolis is not. SJ and SF are, and there are a few pockets here and there of diversity.... But once you enter the Valley proper of the megalopolis it is not. I Live in Los Altos - very, very few non-whites. Same in Palo Alto, LA Hills, Saratoga, Monte Sereno.... Mtn View and Sunnyvale are relatively diverse.

I'm guessing that it is due to the fact that immigrants (w/ advanced degrees and $$$ making power) consider 'The American Dream' to own a house in the suburbs.... haven't we all been sold on that through movies, etc?

I consider the Bay Area megalopolis to be a macrocosm of 'the City'. There are quite a few parts of SF that are just like Atherton, and areas that are E Palo Alto. Not saying that it is right of wrong - just that it is.

Comparing suburbanites to city dwellers is somewhat silly. Sounds like a red state/blue state argument. Guess what.... we are a lot more similar than we care to contemplate.

[Pirate Smile]

165. I've had a revelation from this thread.

I've lived in medium-size cities, college towns, large cities and suburbs. People are the same everywhere.

I never knew what people were talking about when they said they felt looked down upon by Democrats or by people on the left because of how they live and who they are.

I never could figure out what they meant. Reading this thread I could feel the condescension.

If I thought a party viewed me this way, I wouldn't vote for them.

Luckily, I never got this feeling from John Kerry or Howard Dean, and hopefully, I never will.

[UdoKier]

167. I'll look down on you.

But only for being too lazy to actually read the thread and get the real point.

[Coexist]

170. We did - you just don't realise how you sound. eom

[Bridget Burke]

171. It sounds like elitism....

From someone living in a very expensive city.

[UdoKier]

186. Bet I don't earn HALF what you do...

I'm so elitist that my kids are eligible for free school lunch...


Ah, but being an "elitist" has its comforts... :eyes:

[Lorien]

180. I think you're mistaking sadness for condescension

I feel a deep sense of loss when I see how homogenized our culture has become, and a terrible sense of sadness when I see my friends and colleagues gripped by an obsession with consuming. The consumer lifestyle was DESIGNED by the robber barons of the gilded age to lead to a sense of constant unfullfillment; if one feels fulfilled, one will not be driven to consume (read 'your money or your life"). We've all been duped into leading lives that are destroying our families, our planet, and our souls. I don't feel superior to those who are drowning in the culture of consumerism; I feel a terrible sense of futility, loneliness, and loss for us all.

[Pirate Smile]

192. I think we are making a lot of assumptions about the people who

live in certain places. People live near their job or where the schools are good for their kids or near their family, etc.

Cities are not an oasis from the consumerism of our society.

I am fully aware of the identical strip malls popping up everywhere, including in cities, but that doesn't make the people around them little robots. I don't like the fact that it is happening either.

I think a few different issues have been merged throughout the thread. We probably agree on most of the issues but it gets dangerous when we generalize about large groups of people.

[Lorien]

201. Where did anyone say that cities are an "oasis"

from consumerism, or that all people living in cookie cutter suburbs are "robots"??

There is NO oasis from consumerism in America! You can't escape it, because you can't escape the relentless advertising which tells us all that we're ugly if we don't buy product A, that we're unhip if we don't own product B, and that we're unlovable if we haven't purchased product C. Even killing you're TV won't guarantee freedom from the constant calls to consume. Now they even want to install television screens at gas pumps and grocery store lines; ever searching for the opportunity to squeeze another buck or two from each of us until we're all filing for bankruptcy. The constant drone of consumerism is akin to brainwashing; I don't fault the victims of brainwashing for being victimized, nor do I place them on a pedestal. Those who are consumers first and citizens second fall into every category; they live in every corner of our nation, represent every race, age, economic background and both genders. the only thing that binds them all together is the race to consume; and this IS most evident in the suburbs because the town green of the suburbs is the mall. Developers structure new developments around retail areas, not cultural centers or parks. They strive for conformity, not individualism. Yes, many people who live in these developments are liberal, well educated and interesting. Many are not. What sets us, as a nation apart culturally from the rest of the world? What stands out? It used to be our artistic expression; jazz, hiphop, our films, our artists, and our innovation in science and technology-but slowly that's all taking a back seat to our roll as consumers who strive to blur the lines between our own identities and those of our neighbors. Take a drive; how many cars and SUVs do you see with magnetic ribbons on the back? Will you be condemned by your community if you say "I don't support the troops"? Of course you will, because it's a Brave New World in America.

[UdoKier]

202. No shit. As pointed out in "Supersize Me"...

There are 83 fucking McDonalds on the island of Manhattan alone...


:cry:

[Swamp Rat]

194. San Francisco is my other favorite city.

:)

I hope I can visit in March, before my brother moves.

[UdoKier]

199. N'Awlins your favorite?

I have to hand it to New Orleans - it certainly has character - and I love the funky old streetcars.

[Swamp Rat]

205. Don't forget the FOOD!

SF and NO share many wonderful, funky old things... architecture, art, music, free thinkers and non-conformists... :)

[GumboYaYa]

206. And the music....

oh how I miss New Orleans. It is a great city with a real connection to its past. It also has the best public transit system in America. If you live in Uptown or Mid City, there is almost no reason to have a car.

[name not needed]

203. I live in the suburbs.

And with me being only 16, there's not really much I can do about it. It's a pain in the ass. I can't walk anywhere except to my friend's houses in the neighborhood. There used to be a large forest about 10 miles from here. Now, it's all condos and shopping centers. There's 2 music shops around here. The large one with a wide variety of stuff, closed down last month. The little one, which doesn't have much and doesn't do repairs, is the only one around. Now, when I need my bass repaired, I have to go to Guitar Center, four towns over and half an hour away. I'm stuck having to go to the same store that put the one music store out of business. My cousin, who is on the planning board in the town the Guitar Center is in, said something similar to this when Home Depot wanted to build a Villager's Hardware, a small Home Depot designed to mimic a mom and pop store. "So you want to recreate the small town hardware store, basically the same ones your company put out of business?"

[wildeyed]

204. Many people don't know that there are even other options.

They are just picking what they have been trained to pick.

My city is very homogenized. Independent restaurants struggle while the Chili's has them backed out the door. My favorite hole in the wall diner just went out of business. It was cheaper and better than the chain restaurants. We tried to go, found out it was closed so we drove down the street to Chili's which was jamming. We ate a most disgusting meal, huge and dripping with grease.

[sakabatou]

212. Come down to Palo Alto some time

Dubbed "The Most Boring Suburb of SF"

[Inland]

214. You don't know why people live there, and are too arrogant to ask.

There'ss the difference between observing the different lives and being flame bait. The latter comes from just throwing up your hands and wondering why anyone would choose to live in that inferior way--without taking the time to find out what their preferences are and to see that they too are rational.

Jeez louise, you just drove 39 miles for the specific purpose of obtaining something you can't get in your area. After the commute to drop money, it seems a little, well, hypocritical to criticize the place as a monument to consumption. You would think that would stimulate you to consider that living in Dublin is not beyond comprehension.

Let me just give you a clue.

1. For the monthly cost of your two bedroom rent, a family can buy a house in the exurbs, which provides room AND an asset. You may regret that's the fact, but you should be able to respect individuals facing the choice.

2. The exurbs are where the jobs are. In the chicago area, which is like San Francisco but unlike MOST metro areas in that there is a concentrated urban core, the downtown is one of five office/service job areas. The I-88 Corridor has as many jobs as the Loop. You may regret that's the fact, but you should be able to respect individuals facing the choice.


3. The suburbs are where the good PUBLIC schools are. In the city, you often have the choice of an inferior public school or an expensive private school. You may regret that's the fact, but you should be able to respect individuals facing the choice.

4. To come from San Francisco and observe that "America's economic engine is humming--for some people" makes me want to jump through my screen and throttle you. 95% of America couldn't afford to live in San Francisco. To put SF forward as if it were a communal farm or a monastic retreat from the consumerism of the world is nonsense. In order for SF to exist, it makes money off all those people living in the hinterlands.

[IrateCitizen]

215. Accepting things as they are vs. dreaming of a better way

Reading through your post, I am overcome with the impression that for many defending suburbia on this thread, it comes down to simply accepting things as they are.

I've lived in all different areas. I grew up rural (Western PA farm country), lived in the city while in college and for a year after, and now live in a suburb. Well, it's more of a small town in Westchester County, NY than a typical suburb....

To be honest, of the three different types of areas in which I have lived, each has their strong points and negative points. As someone who can't escape his rural roots, I plan to move to a small town in the Hudson Valley in the next few years. But I plan to live either in or on the edge of the town, so that I can still at least pop a trailer on my bike to run errands instead of drive.

My problem with rampant suburban sprawl isn't the people who live there, but rather the kind of lifestyle it encourages. It is an environment that makes it more difficult to connect with other people in your neighborhood, IMHO. It is one that is completely lacking in the kinds of "common spaces" that facilitate that connection. Also, due to its reliance on automotive transportation and promotion of oversized homes, it is terribly destructive to the ecosystem.

There are still some very good people who live in suburbia. That I won't deny. But instead of just accepting the paradigms that propel people to move to the suburbs (like better schools), why don't we fight instead to see that our urban planning takes place in a much better manner? Why don't we join with inner city residents and fight for better schools for ALL kids? Rather than encouraging the furtherment of business sprawl (which further entrenches the need to commute by automobile rather than public transit or biking or walking), why not fight for better zoning regulations and increased re-development in urban centers?

It seems to me that there is a lot of room for improvement here. If we want to create a better world, we first have to take a look realistically at what we want that world to look like, and then at what is needed to make it a reality. By simply accepting things as they are, we fall into the trap of treading water while we only perpetuate the status quo.

I guess that's fine if you're happy with the status quo, but personally I'm not.

[Inland]

217. Defending the status quo vs. acknowledging that there is a reason

behind people's choices. You can argue that it isn't the best reason or best choice. You can argue against the incentives and system that limits choices or gives bad ones. But you can't really discuss it at all if you fail to recognize there are reasons behind a choice to live in the exurbs. If you don't know the reasons, and to add a sense of disparagement to the individuals who make the choices, it is merely alienating.

To use your example, I don't suggest that anyone accept the failure of some school systems. But a single family is going to make a choice. They may not see their system turning around in a year or four. They may be in a minority. Moving or a private school isn't "accepting" the failure of the public schools, and it is an insult to so imply, because there may be those who wish things could be different, would work to make them different, and may even be in the vanguard, but have kids that need to be educated in a safe environment *today*.

Similarly, I echo all your observations on sprawl. It's an awful idea. The lack of a common space--which I would term "public space"--is a sine qua non of new development. Turning over most of our homes and land to the automobile is another. But then again, one quiet summer evening in a large backyard with a grill and a drink--

However, I also believe that the people who make it and live in it aren't evil or martians or androids but responding to reasons that make some sense, and no public policy is going to change unless those reasons are understood and addressed--because, for one thing, the people or make and live in sprawl are going have to be on board, for a political matter.

[IrateCitizen]

219. We're much in agreement on this...

One of the things that attracted me to the living simplicity movement wasn't a sense of depravation -- it was the attraction to the idea of achieving fulfillment. We live in a society that preaches the mantra of "more" rather than "enough". IMHO, nothing epitomizes this mindset than the suburban lifestyle.

I'm not saying that people choose this path because they're in any way "bad". I can totally understand why they choose it. However, for those of us (like you and me) who realize that this model of development is not only environmentally destructive, but often leads to a life of less fulfillment overall, the onus is on us to craft solutions to this problem and present them to people in a way that plays to their own self-interest.

Of course, this kind of journey is a long and difficult one. But there are already communities re-thinking the way they do development, so there are options out there. I'd suggest the "smart growth network" as a good starting place. I also summarized many of those thoughts in another post further up the thread titled, "SOLUTIONS!!!"

[Lorien]

232. Well put, I agree and

So do a few other developers out there. For all my complaints against my employer, the Walt Disney company, I will say that their planned community called "Celebration" here in Florida is a model for new developments that encourage a sense of community and are at least mildly environmentally responsible. The community is carefully planned around a central downtown area that includes retail, theaters (movie theaters and an outdoor theater/ bandstand), office space, condos, townhomes, some apartments, and a park. The outskirts of the development include a large hospital, schools, and several larger office complexes. The residential streets have sidewalks along the street, but parking for residents on back alleys, thus encouraging foot traffic and bike use (there are bicycle lanes along all the streets). Nearly every area of Celebration can be reached by bike, if not by foot. The homes are set on small plots of land, but they don't feel overcrowded because of the many village greens, and some canals that are flanked by trees behind some homes, as well as the large forested areas that have been set aside for conservation. To their credit, the city planners schedule regular art and music festivals, antique car shows, plays, picnic concerts, holiday programs, etc., which really encourages the residents to get out and mingle with one another. It is pricey, but there is something there for most budgets. The streets also offer extremely varied architecture (no two identical homes are permitted on one street), and a $235,000 craftsman home is encouraged to be built next to a $2 million Georgian estate, which may sit next to a $600,000 Spanish Tudor stucco. It IS a bit creepy to walk around a brand new town that is set up to resemble something from the 1920s (with some very modern additions), but oddly enough, it works. Hopefully other development planners will sit up and take notice!

courtyard in the downtown area:


typical residential street:


one of the many "village greens":

[mattclearing]

223. Yeah, here in DC, there is a springing up of "Town Centers"

There's one in Bowie, Largo, etc. Anyone who has been to Universal Studios in Orlando will recognize the design from the "Citywalk" there. It's an outdoor mall with showy facades for each store.

Kind of looks like an amusement park for buying stuff.

I've been a city-dweller for four years now. I am never going back. Something out there just ain't right.

[GoSolar]

224. Thanks for a great post.

Similar sprawl here in VA.

[bloom]

228. I live

out in the country. But I hate it that the town nearby is nearly dead as far as individual, independent stores are concerned. Walmart is the only store that I can think of that sells clothes - how is that for scary?

The independent grocery of a nearby town closed so that people now have to drive (when they used to be able to walk) to the suburbs of a larger town- the sales at the grocery plummeted when the Walmart superstore opened.

I do end up shopping at the likes of Lowe's (when I drive over to the suburbs of a nearby larger town) sometimes - and I might shop there more now the the local nursery/garden shop just closed.

I hate the branding/big box consumerism. I hate to see the local stores close that have been in families for generations. I hate the suburban homogenization. I don't know how anyone can defend it, really.

[ultraist]

229. You are lucky to live out in the country!

We seriously thought about that, but with two kids in two different schools and our business here, we opted against the commute. I'd love to have some acreage and privacy though.

Suburban sprawl is not only an issue that has been raised by certain developers/city planners who are concerned about the social health of communities, but environmentalists have also expressed concerns, including the impact on individuals' physical health. BTW, I had NOT read this article before I made my last post but it notes some of the same factors I did. (I am somewhat familiar with urban infill/redevelopment from our business).

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/07/09/loc_sprawlhealth09.html

Suburban sprawl spawns concern
Seminar draws health workers
By Steve Kemme
The Cincinnati Enquirer

As suburban growth continues in Greater Cincinnati and in metropolitan areas across the nation, concerns about its impact on the health of the elderly and children have heightened. Suburban sprawl has increased the risks of respiratory and cardiovascular diseases, traffic accidents and obesity, experts say. The elderly and children are the most vulnerable, health-care professionals said at a daylong environmental health workshop Tuesday at the University of Cincinnati's Kettering Laboratory.

"We really are in an environmental health crisis," said Dr. Samuel Wilson, deputy director of the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences in Research Triangle Park, N.C. "As we have more urban sprawl and development that gobbles up the natural environment, we have more health problems."

The workshop was sponsored by the Environmental Policy Center, as well as the UC's Center for Environmental Genetics, the Molecular Epidemiology in Children's Environmental Health Training Program and the Department of Environmental Health. The National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences contributed funding.

The featured speakers at Tuesday's workshop focused on health problems created by suburban growth that is characterized by traffic congestion, air pollution, lack of green space, stress and neighborhoods not designed for walking and social interaction.

Those health problems include:

• Respiratory problems. Both the elderly and children are especially susceptible to respiratory problems caused by air pollution, Wilson said. Asthma already has reached epidemic proportions in the United States, costing the nation $12.7 billion in health care a year, he said.

• Obesity. The sedentary lifestyles promoted by suburban areas, where residents must drive everywhere, have contributed to obesity in people of all ages, Wilson said. Physical inactivity and being overweight cause more than 300,000 premature deaths each year, second only to tobacco-related deaths, he said. "We're eating a lot more cheeseburgers and taking fewer walks," Wilson said.

• Traffic accident injuries and deaths. Sprawl has increased traffic congestion and Americans' dependency on the automobile. Those factors, coupled with the lack of sidewalks in many suburban communities, have made it more dangerous to drive and to walk.

Many health experts and planners at the workshop advocated "smart-growth" development to ease the health problems created by suburban sprawl. They favored building pedestrian-friendly communities with mixed land uses, a lot of green space and architectural, economic and racial diversity.

"We have to build environments that appeal to people and get them to be more active," Dr. Howard Frumkin, professor and chairman of the Department of Environmental and Occupational Health at Emory University in Atlanta.

E-mail [email protected]

[earth mom]

230. I grew up in Southern California

and witnessed the charming and picturesque Orange Groves get chopped up into ugly little subdivisions with cheap little cookie cutter houses and watched the fast moving, free and spacious freeways turn into a sluggish mass of cars with endless bumper to bumper traffic. For Dh and I, living there literally became a hell on earth with nowhere to escape the wall to wall concrete, smog and sprawl! By the time we started our family in the mid 90s, we'd reached the breaking point and were finally able to get the hell out almost 7 years ago. Gawd! It was pleasure to move north to Oregon where for the first time in years we were free of traffic and sprawl! When we first moved here we both felt like we had stepped back 30 years-what a slice of heaven!

Unfortunately, in the past couple of years, many well off yuppies-which we are NOT-have been moving here to our area and I have to say I'm disgusted and dismayed with all the McMansions and trendy boutiques that have sprouted up to coddle them and make them feel like they never left home. :eyes: Oh, and lets not forget the monster sized SUVs, the perfect hair and the coolest of cool trendy clothes they brought along with them. To say that I am pissed that they have brought their ugly lifestyles here is an understatement! They are rapidly changing the quiet, small town, Mayberry like feeling we had going around here and no doubt is what attracted them to the area in the first place! WTF?! How does that make any frickin sense?! How hard would it have been to assimilate instead of overtake?! :mad:

[NCN007]

231. As your familier with the area

I guess you suggest I should have stayed in Oakland, lived in a more expensive house, and sent my kids to some of the worst high schools in the state rather than move to Walnut Creek.

[UdoKier]

233. I couldn't afford a house ANYWHERE in the bay area. Count your blessings.

We had a choice of a 2 BR in Walnut Creek or a smaller 2 BR in San Francisco. We picked SF because we save over $150/mo on Bart (and a considerable amount on heating and A/C), and our kids attend better schools here than are available in Walnut Creek.

You're entitled to live where you like - the fog and cool in SF are not for everyone, and the crime in Oakland is a bit much for others.

But this is not about criticizing you or your choice to live in a bland suburb - it's about the suburbs themselves, and the flawed way they are designed and built.

Is there some sort of egomania problem among suburbanites that makes them all think this is about THEM PERSONALLY?