Just got off the phone w/ Joseph Wilson (YO BurtWorm)

[WilliamPitt]

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/2/16/104121/594

"I don’t think there is a secret CIA memo. When Gannon interviewed me, he said 'a memo prepared by intelligence.' That could be INR. I've heard of a story about an INR memo talking about a meeting in 2002 with my wife (Valerie Plame) discussing sending me to Niger. Valerie wasn't at that meeting. If the memo was talking about another meeting, they don’t know what they’re talking about, because she wouldn’t have been involved. Valerie doesn’t think the meeting actually took place."

...more...

Mods: This is not a BurtWorm call-out. Wilson seems to confirm some of what Burt was talking about yesterday; I wanted to make sure he saw it.

[crispini]

1. Oooooo.

Good stuff!

[BurtWorm]

2. Thank you, Will!

:thumbsup:

[WilliamPitt]

3. Welcome

You were the one who made sure I could ask a good question on that issue, so *thank you.*

[BurtWorm]

17. I think Gannon mentioned that it DID come from INR

My understanding is that it was something that was handed around--or possibly just talked about as though it existed even if maybe it didn't actually exist--to a LOT of winger journalists, with the intention of getting it into blogland. They succeeded. But even on this view, Gannon is just a common vessel, a tool. Any journalist who lacked scruples to dig into the authenticity of the document would have suited their purposes just fine. They just needed someone to say, "My sources say there's this memo..." Better yet, they probably wanted a rumor to get out so that the source would be untraceable but it would do the damage to the Wilsons that an actual memo might have.

[caligirl]

37. This is the part of DU that is referred to as pure gold. So the Helen

Thomas's of the WH press corps get ignored or banned, and Retards bring in tools to screw with good people like the Wilsons.

[Must_B_Free]

106. I believe the document in question was Meeting minutes

"My regular readers might recall a column I wrote on Plame-gate a couple of months ago, wherein I mentioned that the Talon News Agency, an arm of something called "GOP U.S.A," did an interview with Ambassador Wilson, during which the interviewer challenged Wilson with an internal U.S. government document purporting to be the minutes of a meeting at which Plame played a key role in getting her husband the Niger assignment. There was just one problem with these documents: as in the Niger uranium forgeries, which listed ministers who hadn't served in years and got key facts wrong, these minutes of a purported meeting of CIA agents placed personnel in locations they couldn't possibly have been. Another forgery! Counterfeiting official documents is also a crime, particularly when it is done with the cooperation or complicity of government officials involved in a conspiracy."
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=2100

More...

"Sources said the CIA is angry about the circulation of a still-classified document to conservative news outlets suggesting Plame had a role in arranging her husband's trip to Africa for the CIA. The document, written by a State Department official who works for its Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), describes a meeting at the CIA where the Niger trip by Wilson was discussed, said a senior administration official who has seen it.

"CIA officials have challenged the accuracy of the INR document, the official said, because the agency officer identified as talking about Plame's alleged role in arranging Wilson's trip could not have attended the meeting."

The classified document "has been circulated around," according to the Post. So the same people who leaked Plame's undercover status – and passed off forged "evidence" of Saddam's nuclear ambitions as authentic – are now adding the theft of classified documents to the growing list of their crimes.
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:TD5zlWP2bEAJ:www.antiwar.com/justin/index.php%3Farticleid%3D1579++%22talon+news%22+site:antiwar.com&hl=en&start=1&ie=UTF-8

[Goldmund]

10. Ah shyte...

I only had a few hours of that easy-breathin'! ;)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

23. Good work.

This keeps us focused in the right direction.

[mzmolly]

98. Hey, you took alot of shisa for that supposition BW.

:toast:

But, you were RIGHT!

[BurtWorm]

134. Thank you for noticing, mzmolly!

:hi:

[CottonBear]

4. What is the INR? n/t

[BurtWorm]

8. It's a State Department intelligence board.

http://www.state.gov/s/inr/

[bpilgrim]

13. the group corn was trying to provide cover for in his recent article...

"The classified memo came not from the CIA but from the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research, and by the time its contents reached Gannon, Valerie Wilson (nee Plame) had already been identified as a CIA officer."

source...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2281&ncid=742&e=5&u=/thenation/20050215/cm_thenation/32196

how does he/anyone know?

and if it's true why are they spreading GOP lies and why would they be immune from prosecution?

peace

[CottonBear]

19. Thank you!

This story is getting stranger and stranger...

[BurtWorm]

21. Plame was outed in July 2003. This "memo" appeared in October 2003

and it was designed to cover up the original crime of the outing, to make it look as though it was "common knowledge" that Plame was an agent who recommended her husband for the job in Niger.

There is a real crime here, no doubt about it. But Gannon is the wrong fish to bark up.

[bpilgrim]

27. if memory serves they were using this as cover as soon as they got called

on outing a CIA agent... but my point is that wouldn't the GOP be liable - at least politically - for manufacturing LIES about the plame affair?

this all goes back to the WH manufacturing consent via DECEPTION and all of these details are important in bearing out that point.

he was peddling GOP talking points and lies, even about a sensitive CIA investigation which warrants further review and digging ;->

:hi:

peace

[BurtWorm]

35. Yes, of course! Whoever manufactured this bullshit "memo"

was involved in covering up the crime. And if it wasn't the person who talked to Novack, then this is evidence of a wider conspiracy. But that evidence would be there with or without Gannon. Gannon was just dumb enough to get spun and egotistic enough to try to make it sound like he was an insider like Robert Novack.

That is my theory and I'm stickin' with it!

[bpilgrim]

39. and ganon could be the CATALYST - SEX SELLS!

Mafia men own up to $650m porn fraud on net

From James Bone in New York

SIX reputed mobsters from New York’s Gambino crime family have pleaded guilty to using internet porn sites and “free” sex lines to cheat users across the globe out of $650 million (£344 million) in one of the biggest consumer frauds in American history.

One of the charges involved an extortion attempt against the former porn publisher Richard Desmond, the proprietor of the Daily Express. One of his executives was beaten by the gang.

An alleged Gambino captain, a soldier and four associates admitted their involvement on Monday just before the start of their trial in Brooklyn. Prosecutors said that they advertised “free” phone numbers offering adult entertainment, horoscope readings and telephone dating and then billed callers $40 (£22) a month for “voice mail” — a practice known as phone “cramming”.

The mobsters also persuaded web surfers to part with their credit card information so that they could enter “free tours” of porn sites, saying the data was needed for “age verification”, and then charged their credit cards up to $90.

more...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1486281,00.html

so now the question is... did love-you-longtime gannon actually deliver on his promises :evilgrin:

:hi:

peace

[sabra]

29. Do you think we should just let Gannon fade?

Or can he help connect some dots? Or maybe there's other parts of the tree... ?

[BurtWorm]

32. My personal feeling is that it would be a miracle if someone of Gannon's

caliber had anything of quality to add to the Plame investigation. It's possible that he knows something, like who told him about these memos. Maybe that person told Novack who Valerie Plame was, but more likely, the person who told Gannon was someone much lower level in the ultimate crime. Maybe that person could lead to the person who outed Plame, but I suspect that person might even be several more degrees removed from the heart of the crime. In other words, my suspicion about Gannon is that he is a dead end. But I also fully admit that I could be wrong and if he does know something it's a slight possibility that it could be a disaster to drop him as a witness.

My whole thrust in the last few days has been to appeal for perspective in the Gannonmania that has taken over DU, because if I'm right, a lot of people here are going to feel like fools for going so crazy over Gannon. And maybe they should.

[Goldmund]

34. You know, if that's true,

it won't be the first or the last time I've felt like a fool. That's all right. As you say, "he does know something it's a slight possibility that it could be a disaster to drop him as a witness." -- yeah, and that "disaster" reaches a lot further than mine, or others', personal ego.

[understandinglife]

41. Interesting phrase -- "someone of Gannon's caliber"

Just what "caliber" is that?

What I know:

Person exists with, at least, two names.

Person has almost immediate (upon seeking it) and persistent (~ 2 years) access to the West Wing of the White House.

Person has essentially zero journalism credentials.

Person sits within feet of the President of the USA, multiple times.

Person interviewed the husband of an outed CIA NOC.

Person may (or may not) be a homosexual prostitute.

Person advertised for purposes of soliciting contact with males interested in military, sports & various forms of personal service.

Person has the President's press secretary lying about him and has Wolf Blitzer and Howard Kurtz conducting coddling sessions on air and in print.

I'd suggest we know very, very little about who Mr "Gannon" is, what Mr "Gannon" does, and what Mr "Gannon" has done.

If I were to guess, I'd suggest, as have others, that Mr "Gannon's" "caliber" is classified well beyond "Top Secret." Just a guess; mind you.

Peace.


TBO;24/7

[BurtWorm]

51. The evidence we do have is that he's very low caliber.

I respect your (and Hootinholler's and H20 Man's) theorizing on Gannon because you show a lot of care in your collection of facts. But when I reach a wall I can't see behind, I'm resistant to extraordinary explanations that make for exciting novel or movie plots but don't connect with life as I see it lived. I resisted the wild theories about the Arkansas mafiosi the wingers wove in the 1990s, and I resist wild theories of an all-seeing, all-knowing uberconspiracy among the Bushists as well. Still, the evidence is undeniable that the Bushists did lie to get us into the war in Iraq; that they did use Robert Novack to out the wife of a major critic of their war drive; that they use disinformation and propaganda regularly to cow critics and construct a beautiful image of their government that is far removed the ugly reality. They're awful enough as human beings without inventing movie plots about them.

[hootinholler]

60. The evidence we have is that he's a low caliber journalist...

Very atypical of those that enter the shrine of journalism of the WH press pool.

It makes little sense to me that his purpose was to be a shill, which opens the question: "What was his special purpose?" (obscure movie reference there)

This still needs investigation. I hear hoof beats, but I don't see the animals yet. I'm trying to think horses, but, I'm open to the possibility that they could be zebras. It's just that I think his only being a shill would be the zebra.

They use far more than propaganda to cow critics and silence stories. The Plame incident is evidence of that. The Franklin story is evidence that Poppy did it too. I'm inclined to believe that the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree here.

-Hoot

[understandinglife]

70. I listed a few of the very few "facts" we have.

Those "facts" don't "compute" with what I know was required to gain access to the West Wing of the White House -- long, long before 9/11.

Pushing aside "Mr Gannon" as a "shill" or lowly whatever would indicate to me that his "cover" is working exceptionally well.

Wonder how "Buckhead" is doing these days? Can imagine that Dan Rather would like to know, as well.

"We The People...." need to know much, much more about "Mr Gannon," about "Buckhead," about ..... .

Peace.


TBO;24/7

[BigBearJohn]

58. I agree with you 100%, Understanding life

[KoKo]

69. Agree....the fact is he was a Conservative Male Prostitute "Posing" as a

journalist, given access to the White House and the "formerly prestigious" White House Press Corps while he was soliciting. He has connections to top military brass at the Pentagon (according to one of his web sites), so this needs to be investigated as a "Security Breach" whether or not he had anything to do with Valerie Plame.

[Nothing Without Hope]

90. UL - that's the way my thinking runs, too. Also possible BLACKMAIL

If "Gannon" is an agent of some kind, he could be involved in collecting damaging evidence on closeted homo- or bisexual public men in Congress, judiciary, military, other prominent areas where outing would have a serious impact on their careers. This could then be used to keep these people in line and discourage dissent or leaks damaging to the Administration.

Blackmail isn't only for money. I think this angle is a real possibility; it's a theme that turns up often in espionage, and it would be just as effective in manipulating government officials.

[understandinglife]

92. From "intelligencesquad" Gannon may have been in the WH Press Room...

....before "Talon News" was formed; before Scottie was even the press sec:

http://www.intelligencesquad.com/id107.html

We need to know much, much more about "Mr Gannon."

Peace.


TBO;24/7

[Old and In the Way]

48. I respect your postings on this BurtWorm. And you are correct.

We need to be careful not to over-reach. If we start making accusations without backable facts, that plays into the RNC media machine. The story becomes irresponsible and untrustworthy liberal blogs.....

I think Gannon was a useful, sacrificial cog in the machine. A component designed to wear out and be replaced, while protecting the rest of the expensive machinery.

[BurtWorm]

50. Thank you, Old and In the Way!

I agree with your characterization of Gannon/Guckert exactly.

[Laurab]

102. But what about the safety of our fearful leader?

Shouldn't they be worried about that as well? I mean if this degenerate could get inside the WH, it surely isn't as secure as it should be, especially in these days of fear and terror and all. Why isn't the RW worried about that? I believe this guy had to have connections of the highest type (I'm thinking rove, but then again, I think everything leads to kkkrove).

Even if the Corporate media doesn't want to cover the sexual aspect of the thing, come ON - this guy should never have gotten close to the WH. He did. They should all be going crazy trying to figure out how that happened. I mean the security of our "leader" is at stake here. In the most security-filled and security conscious white house ever. Something smells real bad here.

[BurtWorm]

111. Do you really want less access to government information?

Do you really want to rule a person out for access to the government on the basis of what they do sexually (as long as it isn't nonconsensual)?

[Laurab]

126. Well, no, that's not what I said

I want to rule out people who #1. Are not journalists, #2. Who are running prostitution businesses on the side, and #3. Who are there only to promote the RW agenda. This is not his personal life, it is, apparently, his business life - there is a big difference. The fact that real journalists have a difficult time getting a pass, while this guy had no trouble getting a daily pass is very troubling.

Were he a true journalist, who happened to be gay, it would be a different story. That is not the case. We are force-fed quite enough propaganda from this administration, without being fed even more from a fake journalist, who is also conducting criminal activities, while promoting the RW agenda. Should anything go, so long as you are promoting the administration's agenda? I think not. This guy should not have been allowed to get near the WH. He should have been held to the same standards as every other journalist. Obviously, he was not.

[BurtWorm]

127. What is a journalist?

What criteria should be used to screen out people like Gannon?

[Laurab]

130. Why don't you ask some real journalists?

Also, read Maureen Dowd's article on the homepage of DU. I'm not going to argue with you. I would think the same criteria that normally applies to WH press would be enough to screen out people like Gannon, and if it's not, the Secret Service, as well as the screening process, would seem to be a little messed up. Under the criteria used for Guckert/Gannon, it would seem to me it would be easy for one of them terrerrists to get in, but you should know, and I do know, that's not really the case, and that Gannon/Guckert was not held to the "normal" criteria.

We are talking about the same president who had unprecedented amounts of security at his coronation, and who did not feel free to walk amongst the people - do you really think Gannon/Guckert getting in was a mistake? Or, if you don't, do you think his "journalism credentials" really constitute that of a journalist? Really, I have no more to say on the subject. It's common frigging sense. This man should not have had access to the WH. He did, because he was promoting the RW agenda. Frankly, I don't understand why you seem to insist there is nothing wrong here, but I am not going to argue with you anymore.

[BurtWorm]

132. It's not that I think there is "nothing wrong here."

It's that I am not as outraged by Gannon's presence as a lot of people at DU seem to be. I find Armstrong Williams' receipt of $240,000 to promote NCLB more disturbing. I'm skeptical of Gannon's access to insider information. But I accept that he might be a useful way into the truly more sordid garbage inside the admin's propaganda factory only because, as bpilgrim says, sex sells.

[Must_B_Free]

113. he is incompatible with the moral stance of the white house

and he'll piss off the backwoods homophobic base if he is not publcally drawn and quartered...

[Blue_Roses]

123. well said!

:D:

[leveymg]

136. Agree and disagree, OAINTW. Gannon's scandalous sexuality is

a distraction, but it helps to gather attention to Plamegate, which might otherwise be an Inside-The-Beltway story at this point. Most people forgot Plame many months ago. You're right. The danger here is that the Gannon story may have the same impact at Rather's Texas National Guard report - an anticlimactic red-herring when Fitzgerald announces that there aren't going to be any high level indictments.

Gannon's role in Plamegate is from a legal standpoint very after the fact of the crime, at least that's how Fitzgerald and the Justice Dept. have decided to play this. But, it is the aspect which most Americans will recall about it.

The Repugs will just spin this episode as just more evidence of "distorted" and "irresponsible" liberal sensationalism, or some such nonsense.

The whole thing's an interesting case study in White House crisis management and spin control.

[tsuki]

99. My sense of Gannon is that he would not dead end himself to

be the fall guy. He'll name someone (if anyone asks). But will whomever he names be the one? You'll never be able to trust any information from him.

On the other hand, I think Gannon will go with this story as far as he can, giving as many interviews as he can. He'll bask in his fifteen minutes. So, it won't be necessary to drop him (at least from our standpoint.)

[BurtWorm]

112. He's a fifteen minute kind of guy.

Though we've certainly spent a lot more than 15 minutes on him here!

[Blue_Roses]

128. I agree and what's even more interesting

is that things are never as they appear. Gannon/Guckert or whatever the hell his name is a pawn in a bigger game--one he doesn't even know about I suspect. He's being played for a fool and while he deserves every bit of it, the bigger picture is being glazed over. This story was just to easy and the complexities of what's going on behind the curtains is what we should really be looking at.

[BurtWorm]

129. Amen!

I couldn't say it better myself.

[Clark2008]

31. It seems as though Ganuckert is a means to an end.

He may not be the iceberg, but he's still awfully chilly.

[Me.]

44. The Cover-Up Eventually Gets Them, Every Time

Another straw on the camel's back, which I wonder will be the one that finally breaks it?

And thanks Will for the info from Ambassador Wilson.

[WilliamPitt]

52. Did the memo appear in October 2003

or did Gannon reference it in October 2003?

[BurtWorm]

54. Good question.

It was first mentioned in a Wall Street Journal Story on October 7, I believe. SusanG at dailykos.com did a chronology of the Plame affair that appeared sometime last week.

http://dailykos.com/story/2005/2/9/191334/0754

[tavalon]

101. LOL

I love your mixed metaphor!

[BurtWorm]

114. Courtesy of Jack Lemmon in Some Like It Hot

;)

(Glad someone caught that!)

[leveymg]

135. Could Gannon be a plant to take attention away from the original leaker?

If any indictments are issued, Fitzgerald's Grand Jury would focus on the original source and forum. Doesn't Gannon just distract from that?

Seems to me, the gay prostitution angle is just a titillating scrap to distract the public. The Gannon story is much more interesting in what it reveals about how the original public release (planting) of Plame's identity in Novak's column that was subsequently picked up Judy Miller, et al. in the major media. I have heard that the Fitzgerald Grand Jury is not going to indict anyone for their role in the second-stage (big-time media) outing. That's may be the reason given to let Scooter and Cheney off the hook, I suppose.

Why are we left to figure this out on our own?

[flyarm]

64. read this about corn!!

Deconstructing David

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Media/021205Hasty/021205hasty.html

i have alot of feelings about corn..and they are not good!

fly

[Must_B_Free]

110. But the memo was created to still attempt to smear BOTH Wilson and Plame

The purpose of the meeting notes was to purport that she unduely recommended her husband for the assignment, suggestive of nepotism.

Maybe they thought if they made them both look bad, it would invalidate the charges. It was a bet that backfired...

[BurtWorm]

115. The legend of the memo was certainly created.

It's still not established that a memo even exists.

But you're right that that was one of the purposes for this piece of disinformation: to discredit the Wilsons and make them look like nepotists. The other, more important reason for it was to cover the ass of the Plame outer, to make it look like it was more widely known in government that Plame was who she was so that she couldn't have been "outed" because she was already "out."

[Must_B_Free]

117. I think it is established at this point that the memo exists

the memo IS the CIA meeting notes from INR.

It exists, but it is a fake, which makes it crime #2, and they may have talked to GanGuk to figure out where this thing came from. Presumably they would want to talk to the WP too.

[BurtWorm]

118. That remains to be seen--literally!

[Must_B_Free]

119. See #106

the author states pretty convincingly that they are one in the same document... That explains how GanGuk was privy to it, it was just being passed around... Rove probably left it in Starbucks, where they drop off all the leaks.

[Penndems]

81. Bureau of Intelligence and Research

eom

[merh]

5. I love you Will!

:thumbsup: And you are one heck of a journalist!

[Spazito]

6. Thanks, Will!

This is very helpful to understand one of the key issues around the memo. Wilson spells out the key questions and he certainly is the person who would know.

[sabra]

7. Good Stuff...

There definitely is more to Gannon...

[On the Road]

9. Good to Know You're Keeping it Alive

and Wilson thinks they have enough to indict.

[caligirl]

11. Thanks Will. Thanks for the interview.

[WilliamPitt]

12. Um

He was right, I think, about Gannon and the memo.

[caligirl]

14. /I've been thinking about that all

yesterday and today. So G/G may not have leaked the info, just somehow used it in his interview. Maybe after the leak had occurred?

[golden voyages]

15. Wilson: "I think Patrick Fitzgerald is going to indict "

:bounce:

Yippeeeeee!!!!

Great work Will

[Beetwasher]

16. Can Someone "Nutshell" This For Me, Please?

I missed what Burt's point was and so I guess I'm not seeing the relevance of what Wilson is saying in regard to that. Thanks!

[WilliamPitt]

18. Nutshell

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3120318

My questions are post #25.

[Beetwasher]

25. Ahhh, Got It! Thanks! My, What A Tangled Web We Weave

Yadda yadda...

I think the word that mostly sums up GG is TOOL.

[BurtWorm]

36. That is my feeling.

In more ways than one. ;)

[Beetwasher]

38. Yeah, I Wonder WHY Wilson Ever Agreed to Be Interviewed By Him???

How did THAT happen? :shrug:

[BurtWorm]

40. Wilson says he wanted to take his case to conservative Americans

because he didn't want to just be talking to the left wing, anti-Bush echo chamber. He thought that right-wing Americans needed to know his side of the story. He didn't really know anything about Gannon except that he worked for a conservative, Republican-oriented Website.

[WilliamPitt]

43. Wilson is also not a snob

He will talk to people who want to know what is happening. He's a great guy.

[BurtWorm]

53. I believe that.

My first awareness of him came from a Washington Post on-line forum just before the war--just before it was absolutely a done deal that it would happen--and he was expressing grave doubts about the wisdom of going in without considering the consequences and tribal politics of a post-Baath and post-Saddam Iraq. He was one of the very few members of the establishment, as I recall, who was saying flat out and as loudly as possible: This war is a very bad idea, and we're going about it ALL wrong. My image of him in that forum is of a Cassandra, watching the train of history moving toward disaster and being powerless to stop it. (Of course that's how a lot of us felt then.)

[flyarm]

65. i got to meet joe wilson at the dem national convention

he is a very thoughtful , calm and calming man..he is extremely angry at what has been done to his family ( and who wouldn't be) but he is just as angry at what is being done to our country..this is a very intelligent man, and determined to get those responsible for outing his wife held accountable..joe wilson will not go away and will not take no for an answer!
he spoke at a forum with gary hart and dennis kusinich..he was the reason i went to this forum and i was not disappointed..my online group had been onto this story from the get go..so i had many questions for joe wilson and he did not disappoint!

an incredible man !!
if he says it..believe it!

fly

[understandinglife]

73. You might want to check the link in #30. (nt)

[Misunderestimator]

46. Excellent! Thanks for the nutshell.

and good work! :thumbsup:

[KharmaTrain]

20. Question from the Peanut Gallery:

Who arranged the Wilson interview with "Gannon" and what did Joe know about "Gannon"? Also, is there a full text of the interview?

I'm sure we're one or two people away from "Gannon" and the bigger fish we'd like to fry. Great work by a lot of folks here and other sites will start unraveling the layers.

[BurtWorm]

116. I think Gannon arranged the interview.

Here's a link to the interview:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Hez8E3hKRTMJ:www.talonnews.com/news/2003/october/1028_wilson_interviewp.shtml+%22An+internal+government+memo+prepared+by+U.S.+intelligence+personnel%22+site:http://www.talonnews.com&hl=en&client=firefox-a

[soleft]

22. The thing that still confuses me about all this

Why were Miller and the other journablists subpeonaed and not Novak. Why is Novak getting off scott free on this when he's the one who outed Plame in his column?

[BurtWorm]

61. This is how Eloriel (whom I respect) explained this to me yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3117203&mesg_id=3118654&page=


12. People keep asking that and I don't know why they ask -- he's NOT


been questioned yet or charged with anything; he's simply not a legal SUBJECT at the moment, if that makes any sense.

If I'm not mistaken, this case was brought by Cooper and Miller (or their news organizatinos) because they were being asked to provide info they didn't want to divulge. What would Novak have to do with that? NOTHING. What would the judges hearing the case have to do with Novak? NOTHING. He's completely irrelevent to this, except that he's part of the subject matter but with no legal standing in THIS case.

I'm not an attorney (which should be real damn obvious), but I hope I've made my point clear at least. Novak has nothing to do with this case -- no legal standing IN the case, period.

[soleft]

76. Okay, but I'm still confused about this

Per Eloriel

"If I'm not mistaken, this case was brought by Cooper and Miller (or their news organizatinos) because they were being asked to provide info they didn't want to divulge."


They were asked to provide info they didn't want to divulge -

Whoever asked them to divulge the info - was Novak asked to divulge the info as well? Why not? If he was, did he divulge it? I guess I'm assuming the info requested was who was it at the White House who contacted them. But maybe that's not it, or not entirely it?

These are the questions I have.

[Me.]

79. As For Novak

<<<snip
“As for Novak, it is not known if he was subpoenaed or if he has testified. However, it is widely believed by reporters and lawyers involved in the probe that he reached a negotiated “arrangement” with Fitzgerald -- and that he “sang.” Cont

Http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/shoptal...
…

[BurtWorm]

85. Ah! That helps a LOT.

:thumbsup:

[soleft]

Yep

Thanks

[BurtWorm]

84. Never mind

[librechik]

24. yeah--no memo exists--it was all just rumor and talk

to try to smear Wilson without actually saying anything they could be called on. These people are such slime.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

26. Great interview.

The thought that Fitzgerald has enough to indict is thrilling.

[paineinthearse]

28. Ask Joe Wilson....

What he knows about the feds (including energy & CIA) swooping down on the UW's Suzalo(sp?) Library and taking 10 documents from the Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson collection.

See seperate thread in LBN started last night.

[understandinglife]

30. Here's "Susan G's" summary of her email exchanges with Wilson.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/9/94615/61143

For those of you who haven't seen it, you may find it interesting.

Here's one Q&A:

Were you struck immediately during the course of the interview by the fact that he discussed the internal memo?

As to the memo, I knew nothing about it other than a Post journalist had told me there was one circulating which he characterized as having been written by somebody who was not at the meeting where I was asked if I would be willing to go to Niger. The fact is Valerie was not at that meeting. Neither she nor I had any ulterior motive in this. It was not until almost six months later that I began to speak out on the war question and even when I did, I always believed that WMD was a legitimate reason to be tough on Saddam. The trip to Niger is only relevant because of the 16 words and the fact that the only evidence to support the yellowcake charge the US turned over to the IAEA (as they were required by Article 10 of USUN 1441) were those forged documents relating to Niger. The only information the British apparently shared with the IAEA was a trip to the region by an Iraqi diplomat a couple of years previously. As it turned out, the CIA had told both the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the White House almost four months before the State of the Union address that it believed the British had "stretched" or "exaggerated" the yellowcake allegation. All of that was in the Senate report but unfortunately, was overlooked by the mainstream media.

Back to the memo, when Gannon mentioned it to me, I told him I knew nothing about it but repeated that my wife was not at the meeting at which the subject of a trip to Niger was broached with me. I may have mentioned that I had heard that there was a memo out there but had no other knowledge about it. I still don't.

Peace.


TBO;24/7

[DU GrovelBot]

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[lawladyprof]

42. Sometimes, it's not the crime but the cover-up that brings down

those in high places.

[H2O Man]

45. Beautiful.

There aren't many people who qualify as role models for young Americans today. There aren't the RFKs, the MLKs, the Malcolms. I sometimes wonder what would happen if there were a Muhammad Ali today, willing to put everything on the line in order to stand up for his beliefs? I think that Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame stand alone in the national politics .... although neither asked for this scandal. When I talk with my children about politics & society during our evening meals, Wilson & Plame give me the opportunity to point out what is good about America.

Your interview is fantastic.

[indigobusiness]

56. Just when I was beginning to think there were no more heroes...

along comes Jack and Valerie to recharge my faith in the human race.

This is sweet.

[MsTryska]

47. great Stuff - but one nitpicky thing Will....

isn't the GOPUsa guy's name spelled "Eberle"?

[donsu]

49. kick

nt

[MaineDem]

55. I absolutely ADORE Joe Wilson

He's one of the most intelligent men I've ever met. I love talking with him and I have every faith that he knows what's going on. Something big will be happening.

Thanks, Will!

[BigBearJohn]

57. Can you imagine if the shoe was on the other foot during Clinton's term?

Do you think the Repugs would simply DROP it?
I mean, hell, look at how they crucified Dan Rather.
Ok, he had a fake memo, but the secretary said the
information contained within the memo was true.
And how many people lost their jobs at CBS? Not
to mention the utter disgrace they put Rather through?

Imagine -- the Repugs find NAKED pictures of a
democratic planted "reporter" at Clinton's press
conferences, who regularly deflected hard, damning
questions about the administration with softball questions
tailor made for Clinton? And THEN the pugs discover
that the "reporter's" credentials are a flim-flam and
that the "reporter" never passed a true security check?

Oh yeah, the Repugs would leave THAT alone.

:puke: :wtf: :nuke:

[BurtWorm]

62. We should take our cues from Republicans?

No thanks. Especially not the repulsively irrational kind. It makes sense to try imitate whatever they did to get their gloms on the levers of power, but to imitate their tactics to make a sewer of the realm of discourse? Please!

[BigBearJohn]

66. Oh give me a fucking break.

You keep going on philosophizing while the Republicans screw us all.

[BurtWorm]

67. They screw us all any way. My philosophizing has nothing to do with it.

;)

[BigBearJohn]

68. So, are you saying we should forget about Gannon?

[BurtWorm]

75. In my opinion, he's almost a total waste of time.

If you want to go after Rove, go after Rove. Gannon will not get Rove, or Bush. He won't even get Eberle. It's possible that he can name someone in the administration who fed him some disinformation about Plame, for instance, to regurgitate to the suckers at gopusa.com. But I doubt anyone is going to get much more out of him, and you're almost certainly not going to get at the GOP nerve center through him.

But if you want to keep digging up dirt on him, go ahead. If you want to keep speculating about what dire uses he was put to, go ahead. Maybe you'll be right and I'll ultimately be wrong.

[bpilgrim]

78. lol

now you think the WHOLE STORY - WH ACCESS and DECEPTION - is a waste of time :crazy:

peace

[BurtWorm]

83. How do you draw that conclusion?

Where did I ever say the WHOLE STORY is a waste of time. I think *Gannon* is a dead end. I never said pursuing propagandagate was a waste of time.

[bpilgrim]

86. "In my opinion, he's almost a total waste of time."

HE is part of 'propagandagate' so i don't think 'he's almost a total waste of time'

peace

[BurtWorm]

87. "He" is not the same as "the whole thing."

In my opinion he is a waste of time.

[bpilgrim]

88. he is, PART of it...

and he brought the SEX (SIZZLE) to the story, can't ignore that :evilgrin:

peace

[H2O Man]

96. Naw, naw!

"In my opinion, he's almost a total waste of time." Brother BurtWorm, I'm an old numbers player. I have been counting the number of posts and the number of paragraphs that you've been posting today regarding the "total waste of time." I think it's a safe bet to say you have invested far too much time on attempting to minimize Mr. Gannon's role for us to believe you think he's all that much "a total waste of time."

Now, we might agree that Wolf Blitzer wastes time on his CNN show. But he still had Mr. Gannon, who said, "And the FBI did come to interview me. They were interested in where -- how I knew or received a copy of a confidential CIA memo ...." Before you send me a copy of Arlo Guthries' song about "The Last Guy," who was interviewed by the FBI for finding a dime and calling the FBI, I'll admit that the 2-11-05 Wolf Blitzer Report in and of itself is not a big deal.

But two of our best friends, Reps. Louise Slaughter and John Conyers apparently think enough of this case to write to Fitzgerald and request he look into this controversy. Conyers, of course, is the congressman who let Wilson reprint a copy of a CIA letter on page 359 of his book.

I can easily accept that you believe that Gannon is not the central issue involved in the Plame case, etc. But I don't think that he's "a total waste of time," and I am speculating that you wouldn't be spending as much time on this if you really thought he was that insignificant.

[BurtWorm]

109. Just because I've been wasting time on him doesn't mean he isn't

a waste of time. ;)

He's an interesting case, that's for sure. But as the key to Bushist mysteries? I think everyone who thinks he's ANYthing like that is going to be frustrated and, most likely, ultimately disappointed.

I don't think it's a waste of time trying to make a case for the truth. I do think it can be a waste of time to speculate about fantasy.

[H2O Man]

120. I would agree

that he is not the "key" to the Plame case, or likely to be the key to anything. However, the "key" to Gannon will be "why" he was used in the manner he was, rather than merely the "how."

The thought of him being a kind of a sociopathic Forest Gump, who merely stumbled into an opportunity to use his talents for being glib and taking the "I'm not a journalist; I just play one at White House press conferences" lacks as much as any theory .... and that is, simply, a background.

If that is indeed who Gannon is, I think that people would have a much more detailed background on him by now. Again, as Conason wrote, we really only know those things he posted on the web.

The thought you have on his possibly bluffing about having seen any intel document per Plame attending a meeting to advocate for sending her husband on an unpaid mission, could easily be true. If so, it fits the glib Gump theory. The fact that he appears to be prone to saying things that are not true will make it both difficult to ever consider him as a witness, and easier to portray him as glib Gump.

Either way, the "why" remains significant .... the administration will use any weasel to attempt to distract attention from their criminal ways.

[BurtWorm]

121. The best use I can see for Gannon to try to get to the truth

is as a PR tool for the investigation into the WHOLE mess. His sordidiness, as bpilgrim keeps pointing out, could keep attention focused on the Bush disinformation campaign, especially if he really is subpoenaed by any committee Louise Slaughter or John Conyers might create. I don't even know if the Dems have the power to subpoena anyone in their lowly state.

[H2O Man]

122. One of the things

that I find interesting is that some of the effort to make Mr. Gannon look like an insignificant boob is found in stressing that Gannon must have been merely repeating what he read elsewhere when he asked Wilson about a "document."

That implies that Gannon was a bit of a con man, who had no real connections which may have lead him to reinforce the false idea that such a document existed.

Yet, I would think your word "fantasy" should be applied to that theory .... the fellow clearly had some degree of connections, or he wouldn't have been called on at the press conferences, would he? Nor would he have been allowed, I would suggest, to skip the process of getting more than the press day passes ..... because we know that the White House was aware he was there frequently. Would one seriously argue that a left-leaning journalist who was highly critical of the administration would have been able to access serial day passes? Think of the difficulty people had in getting into Bush's 2004 campaign stops.

I think it is a fantasy to assume that Gannon was anything less than part of an organized effort to cover-up the Plame "leak" by using a coordinated attack on Wilson & Plame. To insist that it is more likely that Gannon was a sociopathic Forest Gump who simply superimposed himself on the press conferences, than a very real part of the administration's effort, strikes me as curious.

[BurtWorm]

125. Why is Russ Mokhiber called on at press conferences?

Is it because he has connections inside the WH?

[H2O Man]

131. Let's be serious.

I think it was clear that the WH was fond of Mr. Gannon. I think that Talon has some connections with the republicans in power at the national level.

[BurtWorm]

133. I am serious.

They may have been fond of Gannon, but it's probably only because he didn't give them any problems at all, until now.

[sadiesworld]

97. "...almost a total waste of time..."

A male prostitute (who caters to the miltary) with only the flimsiest of journalistic credentials (courtesy of the GOP) has a phony news website set up (courtesy of the GOP) in order to gain access to WH press conferences and ask phony questions is a WASTE OF TIME?!?!

Damn, he's got pictures of himself pissing plastered on his website while he's writing (or at least signing off on) hate screeds against gays!

I dunno what trip you're on but enjoy the ride!

[understandinglife]

104. Ms Dowd "gets it":

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/17/opinion/17dowd.html?hp

Peace.


TBO;24/7

[BurtWorm]

108. I said (as you duly noted) "ALMOST a total waste of time"

If you think checking out porn sites is NOT a total waste of time, then, of course, Gannon is NOT a total waste of time. ;)

[bpilgrim]

77. no. we should report the WHOLE UGLY TRUTH.

and REMEMBER... SEX SELLS!

we HAVE TO play within the media reality we all live in, like it or not, fair or not. that is NOT a reTHUG principal it's a UNIVERSAL principal.

no-brainier, just pressure the M$MH to report the WHOLE STORY.

thats all.

peace

[hootinholler]

72. We know that he did pass a security check...

By virtue of the fact he was there. The question is what sort of security check did he get?

-Hoot

[BurtWorm]

82. Dan Froomkin of the Washington Post told me in an e-mail last week

that you give the WH your name and Social Security number (and though I don't remember if he said this, probably your news organization as well). That's all you give them to work with. They must be looking for something specific--probably *not* an overdue library book or a collection of traffic tickets--when they run your SS #, and if it doesn't turn up, you're in.

[merh]

91. So owing $20K in taxes is just dismissed as an over due library book?

What about taxes owed for his personal trainer skills? Do you think he claimed those and paid the taxed due.

You are so naive. Maybe your contact at the Post never was a prostitute that failed to pay taxes?

Let me know when you talk to one with a shady past that made it into the WH!

[BurtWorm]

107. How would the drone running a security check on Gannon know he was

a prostitute unless Gannon had a criminal record that made it plain he was a prostitute? Do you know if he had one? Who's naive here?

[merh]

124. You are!

:boring:

[Coexist]

59. Great work Will and BurtWorm

It is always nice to see the reality behind the hysteria.

Actually, this story is more interesting than the Fred Garvin angle. It is nice to see Valerie Plame's outing in the news again - even if we did have to look at hooker pics to get it there (okay, okay - I could have skipped that part but that horrified-fascination-car-accident thing kicked in).

Oh, and there was the funny "dangling participle" comment on Countdown.

[hootinholler]

63. That comment may be important...

It was a tease to a story ranked #1 on countdown that was not aired! It's like someone stepped in and killed it. Was it the MSNBC legal dept. or an executive decision? This sort of behavior goes to the heart of Gannon's special purpose.

-Hoot

[sunnystarr]

74. I wondered about that too ...

Also there was a moment when KO looked puzzled and half of the camera seemed to say something like "what's up" or "what's going on." It was only a second but I caught it and didn't connect it until later when no story was told on the teaser.

[NewJeffCT]

89. Supposedly, it did run

I didn't watch that night, but it supposedly ran under their "News of the Weird" section as that #1 story.

[flyarm]

71. thanks for your great journalism Will...

you are one of our truely greatest in a world of dying journalists .

you are a real reporters reporter!!
you and sy hearsh are two fo the best!!

i respect and appreciate your work and your job of standing tall for our constitution!!


fly:hi:

[Penndems]

80. Will, thanks so much for this wonderful interview

I read it late this morning on Truthout. You've done an outstanding job.

Ambassador Wilson is a true patriot, outstanding diplomat and an all-around great guy. There are those of us who will never forget the leadership he exhibited at our embassy in Baghdad during the first Gulf War. The staff still managed to conduct foreign policy (as well as routine business) in a war zone, thanks in a very large measure to the resolve, intelligence and humor of Joe Wilson.

And he earned the kudos of the FIRST President Bush for all of his efforts there.

[DearAbby]

93. My Problem with the WH and Gannon

You keep saying that if your give the White House Name, SS# and creditials, which name did this person use? Scott called him by his alias name/ porn name...why? If the name of his alias was used, the security would have caught that right away.

Shows by Scott McC using the alias that it was a plant...why would they allow a person using an alias within a few feet of the President?

If they did no background check in this time of Homeland Security, just allowed a person in using an alias, having soliciting websites in the alias name....it smells.

If they indeed knew about the background of this person, who High Up in the chain of command has the pull to over ride it? And WHY?

It Smells.

[bpilgrim]

100. they KNEW and didn't care... remeber benard kerik?

Homeland security nominee withdraws

Former NYC police commissioner cites employee problem

Saturday, December 11, 2004 Posted: 12:34 PM EST (1734 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- One week after President Bush nominated him to be secretary of homeland security, former New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik withdrew from consideration Friday night after discovering a former household employee had a questionable immigration status.

more...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/10/kerik.withdraws/

peace

[Cleita]

94. Your name and the interview with Wilson was mentioned

on Air America today. :thumbsup:

[SoCalDem]

95. and FR was the "incubator" on both "stories"

It's a fairly cheap proposition to "offer" a place where like-minded "folks" can gather to propagate the rumors and create a buzz that then flows to Drudge,Hate Radio, Fox and then into the mainstream (if there even is such a thing).. Perhaps the paranoia they exhibit over there is warranted..

Think about it.. websites are a fairly cheap way to go for dissemination of rumors, and we all know there is no shortage of right wing radio "hosts" who seem to be well known in upper Republican circles. These people are getting support from somewhere, and I doubt seriously that there are that many people out here buying Duxiana (sp) beds Oreck vacuums,and vitamin supplements..

The whole "conduit" of information is the underlying issue in all of these "scandals"... FR came into being (conveniently)_ just as the Clinton witch-hunt was ramping up.. It was instrumental in the "recount" fiasco.. We all know that their rank and file members are pretty lame, and some of their "patriot gatherings" are sparsely attended, but when our FBI/CIA is eagerly watching "dime-a-dozen" middle eastern websites and looking for "codes" and "hints" about what's to come, can we totally dismiss the possibility that there is some "back-alley" participation (financially and otherwise) by our now-government of the right wing sites..not just FR??

we may have our noses pressed to the elephant, so we cannot see the whole animal.. Maybe a step back is required :)

[deacon]

103. great article: Gannon needs to be subponeaed if he has not been already

there are just too many questions out there that need to be answered under oath.

[Rockerdem]

105. I'm still not sure what Amb Wilson is saying

Is he saying that his wife never suggested to anyone that he should be a candidate? Or just that she wasnt at a particular meeting?

And, it seems he is saying that the State Dept intelligence service participated in trying to make him look bad. Or that someone forged something to make it look like they were.

Clarification, anyone?

PS: Thanks, William P.

[Nothing Without Hope]

137. An immodest proposal: a meta-conspiracy with blackmail

I believe that, as in the 1989 homosexual prostitution scandal in the Reagan/Bush White House (http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/02/1570946.php), homosexual prostitution is very prominent in the blivet** administration. Gannon/Guckert was either an unknowing pawn or -- more likely in my opinion -- an administration agent in this project.

I also strongly suspect that the purpose of this prostitution in 1989 and now is to gather blackmail evidence to control closeted gay or bisexual men in positions of power and influence. It's a traditional favorite ploy in espionage and the reason why closeted male homo- or bisexuals are such a huge security risk. In this case, the pressure would also be to be silent, compliant, and betray everything on demand. The alternative would be exposure and loss of career and reputation.

Putting this together, I had another idea: WHAT IF THIS HOMOSEXUAL PROSTITUION/BLACKMAIL SCHEME IS ONE OF THE REASONS BEHIND THE DEMONIZATION OF HOMOSEXUALITY BY THIS ADMINISTRATION???

It's been a great divisive and distractive device for them, of course, and those may be its primary cause. But I believe that by making homosexuality such a hated and feared issue, the administration has also upped the stakes on
(1) staying in the closet, and
(2) susceptibility to blackmail.

I'm betting that there are a LOT of powerful (like congressmen, judges, cabinet officers, or military leaders) or influential (like journalists, church leaders, union leaders) men who are closetted bi- or homosexuals who are being blackmailed into supporting this administration in all its criminal projects. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a selective advantage to being a closetted homosexual in being selected for a position. It would make the person controllable.

I really think this should be considered. It's a sort of meta-conspiracy because hyping the anti-gay agenda would be a conspiracy behind the conspiracy of controlling blackmail victims by threatening to reveal their sexual orientation.