An Orangeman (Irish Protestant Descendant) Speaks out.

[Tyler Durden]

Mary McAleese, the President of the Republic of Ireland, got an enormous "pass" from posters on DU for her "Nazi" comment and comparison to the Protestants of Ulster and their "indoctrination" of their children, something that frankly, as a Citizen of the Republic and a Catholic, she doesn't have any direct evidence of, or experience with.

I don my asbestos shorts.

Does anyone see any difference in the level of foolishness between that comment, and this comment: "They hate us for our Freedom"?

REALLY now.

Let's take this another step farther.

How about I say "Southerners teach their children that carrying guns is American, and anyone for gun control is a YANKEE PINKO COMMIE." I assume that there are actually Southerners who SAY that, but to generalize?

I am a descendant of Irish Protestants. I get enough "Wearin' o' the Green" on "St. Paddy's Day" to make me puke. BUT I AM TOLERANT OF THIS. And this is in spite of the fact that August 15, 1998 in Omagh, County Tyrone, TWO of the 55 killed by an IRA bomb were relatives of mine at least close enough to write to.

SURE they were Orange. SURE they voted Unionist. SURE they considered themselves Loyal Subjects of Her Royal Highness. BUT THE TROUBLES were not exclusively their fault anymore than Slavery is the fault of the South of TODAY.

Back to McAleese: her comment was thoughtless, bigoted and bone headed. You tell me: has Bush been to FRANCE recently? Hell, Rumsfeldt won't even attend conferences in Germany. I don't blame the Queen of England ONE IOTA for canceling her visit. If McAleese wants to mend fences, I suggest an apology IN PERSON, sans any waffling about equal blame, etcetera: the onus is on her.

Any anyone who has a stupid 19 year old son KNOWS what kind of a jackass he can be: why is Prince Harry exempt from the ability to be human and make a dumb call? Is ANYONE REALLY stupid enough to believe the British Royal Family is or admires NAZIS???

And to all of you making the "F*** the Queen" comments or equivalent, I suggest you remember that our good friends the Canadians ALSO consider themselves Loyal Subjects of Her Royal Highness. You may now pull your collective craniums OUT of your collective rectal orifices.

Signed,

Tyler Durden, Future Canadian and Future Loyal Subject of Her Royal Highness, Elizabeth II, and proud as HELL to say so.

[Tyler Durden]

1. Fine, I'll just consider the point made, and shut up.

I really wanted to just say my piece anyway, so this works.

[Maple]

2. The Queen did not cancel her visit

one hasn't even been set up yet to cancel. Buckingham Palace has denied the report.

And Canadians are not 'subjects' of the Queen. We are citizens of Canada, an independent country. We have been so since 1949.

[Tyler Durden]

3. Sorry.

Most of my Canadian relatives refer to HRM as "Our Queen." Not trying to alienate anyone, just making the point that the rude anti Queen comments and Pro-Irish Republic comments were getting under the skin of at least ONE Irishman.

And yes, I had two cousins die in the Omagh bombing, which the IRA took credit for.

[Maple]

9. She is a handy

historical leftover...some glamour and tradition, costs us nothing, causes no trouble, is a referee in a minority government situation, keeps us connected to the Commonwealth, keeps us from being easily absorbed by the Americans, and is above politics.

Our Prime Ministers never get to claim God talks to them and tells them to smite people, or worse start thinking they ARE God. :D

My Great grandfather, grandfather and father were all Orange lodge members. I am not, and no one in my family will ever be again. We regard it the same way as we do the KKK.

As to Ireland, it belongs to the Irish. Time for the English to go home, where they can be as English as they jolly well like, and stop annoying others.

However,I am Canadian. And this isn't the auld sod.

[Tyler Durden]

13. I'm with you...

HOWEVER: if Ulster VOTES to stay Ulster, do all of the Protestants have to leave? It's their country, too. I just figure it's time to start playing Live and let Live.

Should the Blacks go back to Africa? Maybe the White South Africans should go back to Holland. Makes about as much sense to me.

If you've been here a while, you live here. In other words, they're ALL Irish, ain't no Enlish LIVING there anymore. Silly to say Time for the English to go home after a few hundred years, nes ne pas?

[Maple]

18. N Ireland

was gerrymandered for years to keep power with the Orange. However there is a rising population of Green, and the Orange power is disappearing. Time for a compromise.

There are protestants living quite peacefully in the Republic of Ireland, and they can do so in the north as well.

If they can't manage to be Irish, and share power with other Irish, and prefer to be English...then they can move to England.

Their choice.

[knowbody0]

4. O'Brien here from county Claire

it is all nonsense to me. my family to this day hate all that is British. they consider them invaders and occupiers. my family fled during the famine, fought in WWI, organized labor unions, were democrats, and refined the arts of alcoholism and gambling. the other half of me is American Indian.
it is humanity my friend that needs to evolve but refuses. the nature of the beast is intolerant and fears death.
i have Indian children and have adopted three Mexican siblings.
we have been banished from the families, the nearest town is red necked and racist, we are nobodies and have created our own country on an island in the pacific northwest.

[Tyler Durden]

6. Yeah, was kind of my point, too.

The Troubles need to be set aside. If we support elections, then you can't invalidate what people legally vote for: If Ulster votes to stay Ulster, then the only other option for people who do not accept the vote is to vote with the feet.

My family members who left went to Canada. Gibsons.

[knowbody0]

12. mine were headed for Canada

but kicked off the boat due to illness......no doubt you have stories from then as well. Rodney king said it all. we all have karma to fix from the ones behind us. my mantra is to cause no harm, heal i what i can and joyfully participate in the chaos here on earth. the threads that connect us to the ancestors cannot be denied, must be vilified and or honored, and forgiven, with a knowing that most believed in what they fought for. in the middle east as in Ireland, the conflicts are centuries old, and could exist on into infinity, unless we all lay down the sword.
peace to you and yours from me and mine.

[Tyler Durden]

17. You got the action.

An eye for an eye makes a blind world, I always say.

I even forgave my ex wife, and I should be canonized for that one.

[MadHound]

5. Sorry friend, I don't buy it

After being occupied for 800 years by the British, after suffering genocide, rape, theft, torture, ruin, poverty, genocide and systematic destruction of anything Irish, especially Irish Catholic, to my mind having the Queen get her knickers in a twist over somebody daring to speak the truth smacks of hypocrosy, to say the least.

Nor do I hold the Orangemen of Ulster blameless either, in fact I think that Mary McAleese is probably painting a pretty accurate historical picture. They seized land that wasn't rightfully theirs, terrorized the Irish Catholics, brought up their kids to to hate Catholics, bang their drums and drink their whiskey in order to build up enough courage to go out and smash some Catholic heads, yeah, it sounds about right to me. I agree, things have died down a bit in the past few years, but that hatred is just below the surface, ready to come out at any provocation.

The truth hurts sometimes friend, and Ms. McAleese is speaking it. It may not be the most diplomatic thing to do, but still and all, the truth needs to be heard.

[Tyler Durden]

7. I think you need to join the 21st Century.

And if you aren't a Catholic in Ulster, you need to find another cause.

Or, I know an IRA pub nead DC where you can sit around and sing "Brave Irish Laddies," or "Wearin' o' th' Green."

Sheesh. Are you one of the Southern Partisans still fighting the Civil War? Come to the present, Friend.

[MadHound]

10. Yeah, yeah that's it, let's just forget about the millions dead,

The land looted, the enormity of Britain's crimes against the Irish. Just belly up to the bar, have a pint and a shot, and everything will be alright. Sorry friend, I don't buy that. While I'm all in favor of a bit of "go along to get along", I think that the Queen's outraged behaviour that somebody dared tell her the truth is a little over the top. Quite frankly I think that every single bit of British royalty should be forced to crawl from Sligo to Cork, kissing the feet of every Irishman they meet and begging for forgiveness for what they and their ancestors have done. But yes, that's just me, I'm a bit vengance minded.

But for the Queen to act like this is the height of historical hypocrosy, and an obvious denial of the past.

I'm perfectly happy to live in the present, but I never forget the past, nobody should. For the Queen to do so flies in the face of all of those that she and her goons ground into the Irish dust during her reign.

Everybody knows someone who died on both sides, and yes, peace requires overlooking vengance and hurt. McAleese's comment wasn't the most diplomatic thing to do, I agree, but considering the blood on her hands, a royal silence would have probably been the best response for the Queen to make. Again, acting like she is the injured party is the height of hypocrosy, and is belied by her own past actions.

[Tyler Durden]

15. Hey, let's go nuke GERMANY!

I've got TONS of Jewish friends! GOD DAMNED GERMANS! Sounds silly, doesn't it?

If you weren't THERE and ALIVE, you don't have much room to bitch. And as to blood on the Queen's hands, it's a Constitutional Monarchy, right? Why not target Margaret Thacher? She was PM in one of the worst periods.

And as to vengeance, it's a road that leads to Hell, and you're more than welcome to travel that road by yourself. I'm voting for peace and forgiveness.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

32. Greetings groveller...

Seems you sods who hold up for "monarchy" need to catch-up to the present.

[Tyler Durden]

8. Oh yes, I almost forgot.

Got any dead relatives blown up or shot by Unionists you can actually NAME?

Didn't think so. I've got two: sort of puts a little of the moral imperative on my side. Time to forgive and forget, sport.

[Bunny]

28. I've got some dead relatives that were purposely starved by

the British during the great famine. And yes, I can name them, too. So much for your moral imperative, huh?

[Scurrilous]

11. Thanks...

...for being tolerant of people wearing green on St. Patricks day. You're a giant of a man. :thumbsup:

[knowbody0]

14. guadalupe!

my favorite of all madonas. hey scurrilous

[Scurrilous]

19. Hi...

...:hi:

[Tyler Durden]

16. So you get to celebrate, and I get to tolerate.

Works for me. Like I said. I'm into forgiveness. Poison your karma with vengeance all you want. I don't do that anymore.

[corksean]

20. Gotta pull you on some of your "facts" Tyler

The official death toll from the Omagh bombing is 29 not 55. The organisation held responsible for the atrocity was the CONTINUITY IRA, nothing to do with the provisionals who would represent the IRA in most people's understanding. And finally, the dead came from across the religious divide, both Catholic and Protestant including some Spanish kids who were there to improve their English. This was not a "sectarian" attack, it was a random assault that had little if anything to do with the prevailing political situation at the time.
As regard the comments from Mary McAleese they were at best crude and ill timed and at worst prejudiced, although a cursory examination of her track record would give a lie to the more extreme possibility. She's Catholic, married to a Protestant. Doesn't sound like she has much time for sectarianism, does it?
Having said that, she was right about the indoctrination of children in Northern Ireland in relation to the "other side" as was best seen in the atrocious behaviour of Protestant children toward the Catholic kids during the Holy Cross standoff. Her biggest faux pas perhaps was in not including the Catholic community in her comments, as there is no question that one side is as culpable as the other in this regard. Living in Ireland I have met a lot of people from both communities in the North and it can be quite scary to see what comes out of these (generally) well balanced, intelligent people when you start pressing the right buttons.

[HEyHEY]

22. Why the hell would you move to NI to practice English?

That's like moving to the most war ravaged part of Colombia to learn Spanish.
I know a slight exageration

[HEyHEY]

21. I take exception to the loyal Canadian thing

I'm loyal to what's right and wrong and I don't think the concept of a Queen is right.

BTW, I'm a decendent of Protestant Irishpeople's too. And yeah, there's a few too many in these parts who think the troubles are simply the fault of the protestants and they deserve to die.

[two gun sid]

23. LOL. What do us Irish Atheists deserve? n/t

[HEyHEY]

24. Hey, I'm an athiest as well.

My point is just that there's alot of extreme people here who think the conflict is all one sided.

[two gun sid]

25. I support a united Ireland.

But, I do not support anymore violence. The time for violence is over. We have all suffered during The Troubles. Now is the time for all good Irishmen and women to come together and make an agreement that takes into account all points of view. Ireland deserves nothing less.

[geniph]

26. I don't give either side a pass, meself

Full disclosure: I'm third-generation American of Irish Catholic descent (both sides, unmixed). My great-grandparents came over from Galway. So I was brought up with all the stories of the horrors visited on the peaceful people of Erin by the Sassenach invaders, romanticized stories of the Easter Rising, etc., etc.

As I've grown older, I've come to see that neither side is blameless in the Troubles. Oh, yes, we can definitely blame Henry II and Elizabeth I, and other historical monarchs for their atrocities, but I'm speaking of more recent history. I think THIS Elizabeth has TRIED to find a path of moderation - and I think most of the Irish people, Green or Orange, are ready for that as well. There's always hotheads - especially among Celts - willing to stir up the old shit - but on the whole, most Americans romanticize Ireland to the point of absurdity. It's a theocracy, for fuck's sake. It's getting better, but it's the one country in western Europe that I *wouldn't* live in right now.

Anyway, Tyler, hoist a pint (figuratively speaking) with me, and we'll drink to the future peace of Erin. ALL of Erin.

[Stop_the_War]

27. What are you trying to say??

Are you trying to stereotype all Irish Catholics as haters of Irish Protestants? Not everyone in the Republic of Ireland is a Catholic, you know. I'm of Irish descent myself, an atheist, and I was raised Protestant (although my Irish ancestors might have been Catholic). And what does the Queen have to do with this? Canadians are NOT loyal subjects of Her Highness, neither are Australians. I doubt they worship the royalty of England just because they still have connections to Britain.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

29. Dear Mr. Tyler Durden:

"Mary McAleese, the President of the Republic of Ireland, got an enormous "pass" from posters on DU for her "Nazi" comment and comparison to the Protestants of Ulster and their "indoctrination" of their children, something that frankly, as a Citizen of the Republic and a Catholic, she doesn't have any direct evidence of, or experience with."

Let me clear one thing up for you Mr. Durden: Mary McAleese, the current President of the Republic of Ireland was born and raised in Belfast. I believe her family home was either in the Short Strand area or the Ardoyne.

Secondly, she does have direct evidence/experience of the sectarian hatred that is so engrained on BOTH sides of the divide. Her family was burnt out of their home in Belfast in August of 1969 for the simple reason they were Catholics.

Please check your facts before you start ranting about the sectarian divide that still exists in Northern Ireland.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Tyler Durden]

30. MY final word on the subject.

My intent here was to bring attention to all of the fine folk on DU who seem to be apologists for anyone who thinks it's valid to piss on Irish Unionists. I now see that as in any Religious sectarian violence, When you have a "Gott mit Uns" attitude, reason for peace is useless.

Fine.

All of you good people out there that think that to "bury the hatchet" means nothing unless you do it in the skull of someone you don't like, enjoy yourselves.

All of you good people who like to split hairs about "how many died" and which wing of an organization who espouses violence as a way to enforce a minory opinion, have a nice day and remember WHO is president of THIS country. What goes around, comes around.

I have no respect for murderers on either side of this argument, but I have even less for people who GIVE SUPPORT to murderers on either side of this argument based on their own predjudice. YOU have a nice day TOO, and when somebody pisses on YOUR version of theology and suggests violence against you and yours, remember your comments of today and yesterday.

There are plenty of pots and plenty of kettles. I suggested a mass-dishwashing party: instead, I get static about how many were killed.

Enjoy your Karma. I'm going to Meditate and Chant.

[Bridget Burke]

31. So--did Mary McAleese plant that bomb in Omagh?

You're blaming her for that crime, even though her major error is a (possibly) unwise remark. I haven't read it in context. And Queenie didn't cancel a trip to Ireland--she'd never planned one.

It's also been pointed out that both Catholics & Protestants died in Omagh. There's no excuse for those who set the bomb--but there have been questions about how the authorities handled the situation. (LIHOP?)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1779751.stm

I'm sorry for your loss. Among my own Irish ancestors were some of the Orange persuasion; they had the good sense to leave centuries ago.

Monarchy is no longer dangerous--only silly. At least the inbreds providing tabloid fodder for the Brits no longer wield any actual power--unlike the Bush family.

I find many St Patrick's day celebrations a bit silly, myself. Much of the music is far too corny & much of the drinking lacks grace. I'll have a shot of Powers whiskey along with the usual Guinness & be glad the pub is no longer collecting for the "Widows & Orphans in the North". Then home for private commemoration--hauling out the old Clancy Brothers & Dubliners LP's, moving on to the exquisite Chieftans & ending with "Five Denials on Merlin's Grave" by Robin Williams (late of the Incredible String Band--from Glasgow!) And one more drink for the United Irishmen--Nonconformists, Anglicans & even Catholics--founded in Belfast.

Meanwhile, you can check out the Orange Lodge in Canada. And you can sit & nurse your bitterness--an old Irish trait.

www.grandorangelodge.ca/