What's the Difference between Patriotism and Nationalism?

[Solon]

I try hard to see a difference, but most people I know around me who call themselves patriots are "America Firsters", "America can do no wrong" type of people. I don't see the difference between the two in that. I also don't understand certain sentiments, even expressed on this board like "I love my country." That is too vague, it is practically meaningless. Be more specific in that and it might be meaningful. I also don't understand the use of the word love in that statement. I was taught to "reserve" the word love to family, friends, pets, in other words to those who are alive, and most importantly can return that love.

This is to distinguish from caring about something. To care about your fellow human beings does not mean you need to love them, or even like them. Let me say that I like certain concepts in the United States, and some of the principles that it is supposed to stand up to, like freedom, and democracy. Nations, IMHO, are just arbitrary boundries set up by a group of people and recognized by other groups of people, usually divided along cultural, racial, or ethnic borders. In other words, tribal mentality. I don't see why people need to be emotionally attached to nations themselves.

[sujan]

1. none

[Solon]

2. That would be my conclusion as well.

However, I was looking for clarification on what others think the words mean. I am trying to keep an open mind here.

[Craig Roberts]

3. My thoughts...

Patriotism is commitment to a set of ideals embodied in your country's constitution. Nationalism is the belief that your country is nothing more than an extension of your ego.

The patriot respects founding principles and demands that his government adhere to those principles. The nationalist simply wants his country to be the biggest, baddest country on the block. A nationalist is a kind of sports fan.

The patriot is grateful, the nationalist proud.

[Solon]

5. That makes sense

To espouse various ideals and try to make your country work to those ideals is good. I also don't understand sports fans either, personally. :)

That's another thing that bugs me: pride. To have pride in ones accomplishments etc. is good. But the question the pops in my mind when someone says, or has the bumper sticker "Proud to be American" is not only bad english, but I think "What the hell did they do to be proud to be American, it is their parents who did the dirty, not them. They were the result, nothing to be proud of."

[Khephra]

4. A patriot loves their country

A Nationalist loves their country and makes sure that YOU love their country too.

[Solon]

6. That statement is practically meaningless to me...

OK, WHAT do you love about your country? A country is too big a concept to take in, you need to be more specific. Its like me saying I love the Universe. What do I mean by that?

[CoffeePlease1947]

7. It is caused by the sloppy word use and mixing of definitions

First, America is not a Country or a Nation. It is two connected continents in the Western Hemisphere of Earth.

The United States is not a nation it is a country. A nation is a group of people with a common ethnic or religious background. The United States has neither.

A nationalist can mean one of two things. It can mean one who promotes their religion or race over all others and believes it is superior to all others, in most extreme cases the extermination of others outside their race or religion.

It can also mean that they believe in a form of government where the state is superior to the individual and that the individual should be used for the purposes of advancing the nation.

A Patriot is someone that believes and serves the principals and/or expansion of their country.

I am a Patriot in the sense of advancing the prinicples of stated beliefs of the United States, being democracy, freedom, equality, and justice. I am not a patriot in advancing the terriorty and forced control of others by the United States.

I am not a nationalist in any sense of the word. I believe in the preservation of all races and the right to practice any religion that does not surpress others in doing so.

Mike

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. No real difference.

Any perceived difference is a matter of degree, and not one of kind. Both patriotism and nationalism are artifacts of our evolutionary heritage as territorial primates, and in part the result of some shared worldview about what it means to be "American" (or any other nationality) as distinct from the remainder of humanity. Both carry with them the element of an implied or expressed sense of superiority in being of whatever nationality, which is merely the result of an accident of birth and a lifetime of cultural conditioning, nothing more.

[kurt_cagle]

9. Patriotism, Nationalism, Fascism

In the time of the Revolutionary War, patriotism, extending from the word Pater, or father, was a subtle dig at the reference to England as the Mother Country. It denoted a certain independence, the ability to stand on one's own feet, a very real need for a country that had long been considered a colony.

However, because this also was occurring in concert with the Enlightenment era thinking that characterized the French philosophical movements of the time (before that country begain its descent into anarchy), there was also a very real awareness that what was being defended was not so much the notion of a country as it was the notion of an ideal, that "ordinary" people could in fact take control of their own governance and that government only existed by the consent of the governed.

This was heady, powerful stuff at a time when the religious wars and Europe's lingering feudalism still existed, and with it came the implicit assumption in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights that America was more than just another country, it was a set of ideals about what mankind could become.

People such as Franklin, Jefferson, and Payne were all leary, though, of nationalism per se. They had seen too often the ability of kings and generals to rally the troops around the flag, even when the causes involved were not only silly but even inimical to those same troops. This was part of the reason why the system of checks and balances were put into place; the Congress represented the people's skepticism of the president, the Courts represented the wizengemoot - the wise one's gathering - that represented the role of Justice and took it away from the executive branch. In a monarchy, the king is the ultimate justice, but that means that no one can judge the king. By separating these functions, one of the principle roles of the judiciary was to act as a brake against the unalloyed nationalism that had brought so many countries to ruin.

Nationalism is a nasty, virulant disease. In nationalism, the symbols of that nation become the equivalent of holy objects to be venerated without question, and is often used as a means to wrap otherwise sordid and questionable policy in a verneer that attracts those who are more likely to respond to symbolism rather than substance. Nationalism places a premium upon symbols such as the flag, the military uniform becomes a nationalistic fetish, anthems and pledges become prayers.

Nationalism can help bind a people together by establishing a common identity, and in a few cases nationalism is also tied into an ethos of living that says that while this identity is important, it is just one valid identity among many ... Canada comes to mind in this respect.

Unfortunately, nationalism unchecked can be used by unscrupulous leaders to strengthen a sense of us vs. them as well. In such cases the identity involved includes both a sense of superiority over others and a vision of the pure members of the sociery as being ubermensch or supermen. The Aryan nation of Nazi German was one example of this, but far from the only one. The Republican party in the US is a nationalist party in that respect, because it tends to stress symbols (the flag, the pledge, the Ten Commandments) over ideals. Not surprisingly, nationalism tends also to be most heavily promoted by the wealthy and the powerful, who understand themselves to be the first amongst the finest.

Fascism occurs when nationalistic fervor meets with corporate oligarchical control. In a Fascist state, the distinction between the government and industry largely disappears. In a healthy society, government and industry should have a largely adversarial relationship, because industry involves the concentration of resources within the hands of a privileged few (the shareholders of that industry) while government involves the distribution of resources to provide for as many as possible. When industry takes control of government, this balance goes away, usually with detrimental short term effects for the weak, and long term instability and detrimental effects even for the wealthy as system after system collapses.

We are not quite yet in a Fascist state, but we're not far from it. In a proto-fascist state, the opposition is harassed and intimidated, given limited access to the media, and so forth, but still exists, and still can exert some leverage. In a pure fascist state, speaking against the state can be grounds for incarceration or even death because there are no checks upon police power to protect against that.

Most progressives are not nationalists, although they may be patriots in the older sense of the word. They are commited to the ideals of a free and open society in which all people have access to the same level of opportunity (not that all people will take advantage of those opportunity) and that all people will be judged equally based upon the merits of the case rather than the money they have for defense. They are usually not swayed by symbols (and are usually more symbolically sophisticated) and maintain a healthy skepticism of any institutionalized base of power, whether public or private. Needless to say, they are not terribly welcome to a ruling elite who feel that they are given their power by dint of some inherent superiority they have compared to others.

[wuushew]

10. how about the difference between nationalism and jingoism?

One entry found for jingoism.


Main Entry: jin·go·ism
Pronunciation: 'ji-(")gO-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1878
: extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy
- jin·go·ist /-ist/ noun or adjective
- jin·go·is·tic /"ji-gO-'is-tik/ adjective
- jin·go·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

[Lexingtonian]

11. Oh, that's easy

A patriot is willing to die for his country.

A nationalist is willing to live for his country but more intent on making lots of others die for it.

E.g. JFK was a patriot. Curtis LeMay was a nationalist.

[clar]

12. In an obscure book, The Diary of a Man in Despair

the author (who's name I forget) a member of the German Resistance, said that "Nationalism is a state of mind in which one hates another country more than he loves his own." (That actually probably isn't a direct quote, but it's very close.)

E.M. Forester who wrote a fantastic book entitled "Two Cheers for Democracy", said something to the effect that if he had to choose between betraying a friend and betraying his country, he hoped he'd have the courage to choose his friend over his country.

[dudeness]

13. George Orwell "notes on nationalism"

Somewhere or other Byron makes use of the French word longeur, and remarks in passing that though in England we happen not to have the word, we have the thing in considerable profusion. In the same way, there is a habit of mind which is now so widespread that it affects our thinking on nearly every subject, but which has not yet been given a name. As the nearest existing equivalent I have chosen the word "nationalism", but it will be seen in a moment that I am not using it in quite the ordinary sense, if only because the emotion I am speaking about does not always attach itself to what is called a nation -- that is, a single race or a geographical area. It can attach itself to a church or a class, or it may work in a merely negative sense, against something or other and without the need for any positive object of loyalty.

By "nationalism" I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled "good" or "bad." But secondly -- and this is much more important -- I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseperable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html

[TheBigGuy]

16. Orwells definition come close to what I understand as chauvenism:

-- I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests.
...particularly the "placing it beyond good or evil".

His definitioon of patirotism comes close to the dictionary definition:
...by "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people.

compared to a dictionary defintion:

patriot: "person who loves, supports, and defends his country"
patrotism: "love of and devotion to one's country"

Yet is the dictionary definition of nationalism that different?

nationalism: "1. Devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation.
2. The belief that nations would benefit from acting indepednently rather collectively and emphasising national rather than international goals"

Orwells defintion also comes close to the German concept of "heimat", or some of the writing of Jean Giono on his defintion of patriotism as being more of a love of place rather than of state.

[Solon]

26. That's the conundrum

Both can be defined by the people using them. I think terms such as "love" and "Devotion" are too stong to use meaningfully in such a discussion. The inevetiably bring about hatred and distrust of "foriegners" and their influences. Cultures change, as do nations, so why tie yourself down with such outmoded ideas? I'm not saying that nations or its people should give up thier independence. We do not live in neither the best country in the world, nor the worst. Americans live in the most powerful, militarily, country in the world, and it is our responsibility as citizens to make sure that that power is not unleashed unchecked.

[TheBigGuy]

28. Maybe "appreciation & affection" instead of "love and devotion".

you have a good point that love and devotion are maybe too personal.

I think appreciation (as in the term "art appreication" might be better than devotion)

[Solon]

37. Yes it could be...

I mean I like the IDEAS that are espoused in this country, but I don't have a blind devotion to them. For example, the Bill of Rights, while good, I would like to see expanded and clarified. (i.e. explicit right to privacy, to vote, ERA, ect.) An extension of nationalism, IMO is the knee-jerk reaction some people have at certain reforms within the system itself. The Constitution was not intended to be written in stone, but too many people in this country believe it is.

[TheBigGuy]

40. Well, that is a political position:

"The Constitution was not intended to be written in stone, but too many people in this country believe it is."

That is sort of a libertarian position, that the Constitution has somehow been corrupted and we have been seeing a long "fall from grace" (or liberty as they define it).

Oddly enough, though, when I have had discussions about this online with libertarians (not hear elsewhere) they dont say the opposite position is not unpatirotic...they see this debate within the realm of "politics" not "patriotism".

[Solon]

41. I'm talking about a general idea about devotion.

Treating the Constitution like a religious document that should not be "messed with" is the attitude I'm talking about. I'm not talking corruption, nor am I talking about a degrading of liberties (even though that is happening). In fact, the Constitution has changed and expanded the rights of many citizens, over time. Its just that some of it is too vague, that many of our rights are simply interpretations of the courts, and can be overturned by the same courts in the future. Technically, our right to vote is not constitutionally protected, we have to rely on the states for that right. What is to stop one state, or many, from disenfranchising millions, for various reasons, besides race, sex, or age?

[Forkboy]

14. Sterling is a patriot

BigGuy is a nationalist.

[TheBigGuy]

17. Thats your opinion.

I am neither...I am a regionalist.

[Solon]

18. Could you define that? n/t

[TheBigGuy]

27. regionalism..

....I guess its more about my like or appreciation of the small part of the world I live in, the lower Midwest or Ohio Valley. Its not necessarily the best and most wonderfull part of the world, but I like it, its home, and I will defend it if I have to.

Kind of like what Garrison Keilor is talking about, in a lighthearted way, about another part of the midwest, his fictional Lake Wobegone..."where all the children are above average" (we know thats not the case, but he is being affectionate to a place while poking fun at local chauvenism, too).

[Solon]

38. Kind of a "home town" mentality...

That's understandable, for like the old adage "There is no place like home." As long as you don't take things like that to extremes, everything in moderation, in attitude, if not politics. :)

[TheBigGuy]

39. LOL..yes very good.

And there are also good critiques of the hometown mentality out there too...in fact some of the great US literature, like Main Street and Spoon River Anthology, work that literarly mine.

[Solon]

42. Exactly, and in the same token.

While having an apprieciation of where you live is good, it is always wise to not take it to fanatism. Recognize the flaws and work to improve the lives of both you and your community. But if the "mayor" decides that the town next door is getting to be annoying and orders a storming of the gates, then it is our responsibily to call him on it. As well as for others in the surrounding communities to critizise our town and its leaders for endangering thier own security as well.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

21. I was not aware that I was.

Considering that one of my, friends, a former marine, calls me "un-patriotic" I find that amusing. Then again, he's an anarchist, hates the state with a passion. :)

ON EDIT: My bad, you responded to The Big Guy, whoops.

[sujan]

23. I am "un-patriotic"

[Solon]

30. Call me "Un-American"

I'm not "Anti-American" I don't even know how such things are brought up. I have in the past, brought up history of the U.S. that never discussed or taught in school. This nation has used its power to gain an unfair advantage in the world, and has been doing it for the past 100 years. I bring things like that up, not to shame us, but for those who do not know, to realize that the United States is no different than past Empires, and has reapeated mistakes NOW that it has made before. We need to move on, to realize that to live on ideas that have been proven bad before is bad now. We must rise up beyond the tribal mentality that permeates thoughout the world, or the very survival of Human Beings is threatened.

[TheBigGuy]

34. Your opposed to the concept of American exceptionalism...

"I bring things like that up, not to shame us, but for those who do not know, to realize that the United States is no different than past Empires, and has reapeated mistakes NOW that it has made before."

This is a big historical fallacy that the US is someone special in that regard...that the US "isn't an Empire" because we are more or less a democracy have these great founding ideals.

A close reading of US history (esp in our attitudes towards Cuba and Mexico and Latin America, and even Canada) will suprise alot of folks...there is some real baldfaced imperialism early on in that tale.

[TheBigGuy]

25. definition..

Xenophobe: Person unduly fearfull of strangers or foreigners.

Prove it.

[sujan]

29. and I quote you

I guess I do differ with the vast majority of the DU community as I don't take to kindly to criticism of the USA from foreign posters.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=301553#301621


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=299246#299922

Can't take the heat?

[TheBigGuy]

31. Your right I dont.

I do get fed up w. constant criticsim of the USA in some cases.

But that doesn't mean im unduly afraid of dislike foreign countrys or people from those countrys nor completely tune out foreign views and ways .

Thats a big difference from being a xenophobe.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheBigGuy]

36. Whatever.

im not going to debate this with you. Have it your way.

[Solon]

32. Actually Sujan...

I would like an answer too. To be honest, The Big Guy's statement is typical of most Americans. However, the actions of this country does affect more than the lives of the citizens here. It effects the world, and as such, the people outside the borders have a right to speak thier minds on the subject of U.S. foriegn policy.

[imhotep]

15. my opinion

There is no difference.
However, in terms of priorities, we have a government and its function should be the welfare of its citizens before all others.
I don't know if that is patriotism or nationalism, but either way the government is failing to serve its purpose.

[Solon]

35. No, that is the responsibility of National Governments

as it should be. Dividing the world up into Nation-States, is not in and of itself a bad idea. People have the right to establish governments as they see fit, as long as they do not trample on the rights of others to do the same.

[BonjourUSA]

20. Like religions, patriotism or nationalism are the compost of the hate

Many battlefields were full up with patriots corps. But many other ones were full up with defenders of the liberty too, and the defense of the liberty is universal

[Solon]

22. That's the truth.

BTW I love your sig line, definately a concise way to express what democracy is all about.

[w4rma]

24. Patriotism: Nation = extended family; Nationalism: Nation = big brother nt

[Cat Atomic]

43. To me, an American "patriot" is someone who is

loyal to the ideals the country is supposedly founded upon; things like equality, representative government, freedom of (and from) religion, and free speech. A patriot can be critical of, and even despise, American policies if they're out of step with the ideals he/she is loyal to.

That's what I like to *think*.

But as far as dictionary definitions go, there's no difference between patriotism and nationalism. As Webster defines them, both words describe a despicable sort of "my team, right or wrong" sentiment.