The problem with God-based morality

[BurtWorm]

I caught a few moments of Jim Wallis on Washington Journal yesterday morning, and while I am always thrilled to see an intelligent evangelist use the words "social" and "justice" in a common phrase to describe a goal worth working toward, I was struck by the very first call Wallis fielded from a more (stereo)typical evangelist from North Carolina. Wallis had been discussing his new book, whose subtitle is something like "Why the Right Gets Religion Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It," and his point is that left and right could find common ground if they made religious morality central to the values dialogue. Of course he doesn't argue that everyone become religious, just that the right face up to social problems like poverty, which are central to all modern religious values, and that the left face up to "family values."

This seemed reasonable enough even to an atheist like me, if we took the term "family values" loosely to mean something more like "common decency" or "civility." But of course the first caller immediately challenged Wallis's right to call himself an evangelist, claiming that no self-respecting one would hold the political and moral views Wallis espouses. Despite being seasoned at these kinds of debates, Wallis responded from a weak position, allowing the caller to define the terms. "Evangelism," according to this caller, is Bible-centered literalism, essentially, so Wallis claimed to be a Bible-centered literalist. I would have asked the caller how he could be sure, if he accepted his own fallibility and fallen state, that he knew what was in God's mind. This is a question that all right-wing evangelicals deserve to have shoved down their fat gullets, but it's not convincing coming from atheists, and for some reason, lefty Christians don't think to ask it.

In any case, it points up the central problem with God-based morality: no one agrees on what God-based morality is. And yet, give one faction of the religious enough rope and they'll hang us all with their certainty that THEY and THEY ALONE know what is in God's mind. This is precisely what is going on in the US now that the right-wing Christians are feeling their oats.

I welcome your comments and critiques of this analysis.

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Yeah, that's religions dirty little secret. I'm right, you're wrong.

The crux is: what do you do with the "wrong-thinking" people? Does your religion demand peaceful coexistance or genocide?

[Hollowkatt]

4. neither

There are only two religions that I can think of that demand genocide and one of them only calls for that in missunderstood translations. Islam demands tolerande and coexistance afaik while xtianity demands coercive convertions, failing that yes it does demand genocide.
Thats why winning the war against the christian right is vitaly important to the continuation of the republic.

[July]

6. To me, that's why separation of church and state is so important.

I don't care if Christians or any other believers think that they are better than I am because they are "saved," "elect," or in some other way higher-placed in "God's mind" than I am. They can believe whatever their religion teaches them, even if it makes them believe they are better, more moral people than I am. Within their belief, they are. UNDER THE LAW, though, we are equals. They are not better citizens or more American than I am. The law and our government should treat us the same way, and should do nothing to make them feel preferred or privileged or to make me feel disfavored or disadvantaged.

[BurtWorm]

7. " UNDER THE LAW, though, we are equals. "

Very well said.

[July]

12. Thanks, BurtWorm. nt

[BlueEyedSon]

8. OK, I was exaggerating for emphasis. Conversion is another choice,

as is complete disengagement/geographical partitioning.

But it's one of those 4.

[atommom]

2. I agree. Religious zealots are scary because they not only believe

they (and only they) are absolutely right, but because they aren't swayed by any evidence to the contrary. If it begins to look as though they might be wrong about something, that is a sign that Satan is trying to mislead and weaken them. It's very dangerous to have people like that in power.

[havocmom]

3. "no one agrees on what God-based morality is"

because it's too comfortable for one to create God in one's own image.

Interesting post.

The problem I have with folks trying to take the bible literally is that I know it to have been edited/translated/edited some more by fallible humans, most of whom have an agenda to promote. I have a real problem trying to deal with minds who will admit the lack of logic needed to absolutely follow a script so obviously intended for improvisation.

[Modem Butterfly]

5. If you want to make a winger freak out, ask them to define family values

Ask them to define family values in a concrete, definite manner. Then ask them to explain how these values are specific to families, as opposed to anyone else. Sometimes smoke curls from their ears.

[Warpy]

9. A Christian friend of mine lambastes the theocrats

for their dead letter literalism because he says they're committing the hubris of trying to limit god to just one book written by just one people. I think he's got a valid point. Another of his points is that the true shame of organized, dogmatic, ritualized Christianity is that socialism had to be invented. He's got a great point there, too.

[BurtWorm]

10. Of course that's a valid point. Both points are.

:toast:

Why don't winger-vangelists get it that they've shrunken God to the size of their own pea brains? (Rhetorical question.)

[killbotfactory]

11. Hmm... bible literalism...

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests - http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/17-12.htm">Deuteronomy 17:12
Kill Witches - http://bible.cc/exodus/22-18.htm">Exodus 22:18
Kill Homosexuals - http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-13.htm">Leviticus 20:13
Kill Fortunetellers - http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-27.htm">Leviticus 20:27
Kill people who attack their parents - http://bible.cc/exodus/21-15.htm">Exodus 21:15
Kill people who curse their parents - http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-9.htm">Leviticus 20: 9
Kill Adulterers - http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-10.htm">Leviticus 20:10
Kill people who worship other gods - http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/13-6.htm">Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill women who can't prove their virginity on their wedding night - http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-20.htm">Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath - http://bible.cc/exodus/31-12.htm">Exodus 31:12-15

No thanks.