Meet your Meat.

[Gothic Sponge]

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=mym2002
http://www.meetyourmeat.com/

[alwynsw]

1. Meet MY meat.

This is one of 5 I took in November. Hides are being tanned, meat is being eaten, antlers are being made into buttons, etc. I eat and use what I take. I'm a genetic omnivore. So are you. Investigate your teeth. Investigate your dietary needs. The truth is inescapable.

Factory farming is not pretty. I'll look for better ways of animal husbandry when over a third of the world's human population is no longer undernourished or starving. No. I do not support deliberate cruelty to any living thing.

[Walt Starr]

3. That's a nice looking deer

I love venison, but have been too concerned about various diseases that have been showing up in deer lately.

[alwynsw]

11. Thanks.

About the diseases: all of my game gets a thorough inspection both while field dressing, then during processing. I'm lucky enough to have a USDA inspector that works part time at my processor's facility. She checks out of courtesy and habit. Obviously, small game is checked only by me, but since it's all cooked to safe temps for the prescribed time periods, the risk is almost non-existent.

on edit: The health benefits of game as opposed to domestic meat are enormous.

[smurfygirl]

14. oh so you check for prions?

you can't destroy prions with any amount of heat. And they can transfer from other game that is processed in the same facility.
Probably not a concern in Kentucky. (at least not yet)

[alwynsw]

20. Prions.

Are we looking for CJD? GSSS? KURU? Of course, there's still a great deal of debate as to whether prions actually exist. I believe from my reading on the subject that they actually do.

You really should rethink your comment that prions can't be destroyed by any amount of heat. Of course, the food containing them would be destroyed as well, but sufficient temperature - as opposed to amount of heat - wil most definitely destroy them.

In the interim, the risk is extremely slight. From what I can gather, the prion risk is actually far greater in farm raised animals of any variety. Wild game doesn't have the opportunity for a caretaker to watch them daily and prolong their lives with treatment in the event of illness. There's also far less contact between wild game than in domestic animals, thus further limiting the opportunities for transmission of disease.

I find it an acceptable risk.

[Walt Starr]

22. The issue is currently regional

Northern Wisconsin has seen some problems, so that's one area I'd be careful of.

[alwynsw]

27. True.

Also, CO, BC, and a few other areas. Nothing so far within 400 miles of me. I do keep a close watch.

[Walt Starr]

37. I live in Northern Illinois

so I'm careful, plus the fact that urban sprawl here makes hunting someting that requires wuite a trip.

Now back in Wyoming, we had some by gosh hunting!

Antelope
Deer
Elk
Moose
Bighorn Sheep
Black Bear
Mountain Goat

Elk has always been my favorite. Most years, the antelope have no limits, take as many as you can kill.

[alwynsw]

40. Wyoming!

I love that state! I spent 2 weeks there last spring and only met one jerk - and he was from out-of-state. I gotta get back there in summer to fish Wind River Canyon again.

I can see why on the antelope non-limit. We saw them by the hundreds from the van. Too bad my knees won't stand up to the rams anymore. They're a treat to hunt and even more of a treat in the skillet.

[Walt Starr]

41. The coyotes have been so wiped out the antelopes have no predators

The numbers are so high that even with no limit hunting, the game and fish department still have to destroy hundreds every year.

The coyote situation is also why the prairie dogs are so thick.

The one meat I never much cared for was black bear. Too sweet.

[alwynsw]

45. I agree on the bear meat.

Maybe mine had just been eating the wrong stuff. It was very strong and gamey, but I didn't really notice the sweet. The strong taste probably overpowered it.

Betcha can't guess what's for supper tonight! O.K. it's venison. I'm cooking a tenderloion with a bernaise and wild rice with portabellas.

[Tsiyu]

54. heat does not kill prions

And several hunters in Western states have come down with brain-wasting diseases from eating infected deer.

But I agree, your chances are better taking wild game than eating the slaughterhouse carcasses.

[alwynsw]

58. Re-read my post.

Then re-think the heat doesn't kill thought.

My point is that in order to kill the prions you have to destroy the meat. Therefore, I take a very small chance when eating game.

(OK. So my wife the science type is rubbing off on me. She's got me thinking in absolutes.)

[Tsiyu]

68. I did and you did

And you are thinking in absolutes but hey, so do half the others around here so we won't get ugly. Yes, perhaps 90000 degrees would get rid of the prions; of course I was referring to the acceptable cooking temps, you absolutist, you.

And you people quit talking about wyoming. When I decided to escape the evil clutches of Georgia, Wyoming was my second choice. More antelope than people. What a lovely place...

Nice deer, by the way. I can tell things are tight $$$$ around here because I usually have a freezer full by now but everyone is holding onto or eating their kills this year.

[Dave Reynolds]

183. Central nervous system tissue

is (if my understanding as a histology tech is correct) the main risk for prion disease. As one neuropathologist told me "you can catch it, but you'd have to eat a few good forks full of brain".

I handle human tissue as a matter of employment. I usually remember where I am and what I'm doing there....:P

[American Tragedy]

7. I agree with you.

It's an unavoidable fact of the ecosystem that predators kill and devour prey, and we are a part of it. Although it may be arguable how much meat humans ought to consume in their total diet, there is no question that we and our primate kin are natural omnivores.

[donheld]

53. Who's to say an corn stalk doesn't cry out in pain

every time an ear of corn is plucked from it. Just because we don't hear it's cry, or see it's blood flow doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Can we really eat anything without something suffering?

[livinginphotographs]

75. If you really think that's clever....

Then there's no point in discussing it with you.

(P.S. It's not clever.)

[donheld]

184. Can you prove me wrong?

[livinginphotographs]

229. It's been proven wrong

(and a pretty stupid attempt at an argument) so many times in the past. But I'll give it a go one more time, despite the fact I know you're not actually looking for information, just trying to leave as many smart-ass comments in a veg thread as possible.

Plants do not have central nervous systems. Period. They will sense data that they are damaged, I'm sure, but nothing that could be interpreted as what we call pain. Animals can.

And if you're so concerned about plants, keep in mind how many plants have to be grown and killed to feed your dinner.

[solinvictus]

10. Nice one!!

I've been once this year and if I had a dime for every track I saw, I'd have enough for a good dinner out. ;)
I agree entirely about factory farming, we use organic eggs and dairy and for a New Year's resolution, I've limited myself to meat once per month.

[TwentyFive]

15. I agree - humans should eat meat.

I'm glad you posted your fresh kill on this website.

It is a big lie about animal rights and humans not eating meat, etc. Animal rights (abuse excluded) will never be a big political issue because it is not grounded in fact. The facts are, most humans need meat to survive - and prey animals will always be killed for their meat. If we don't kill them, lions, alligators, sharks, etc. will.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TwentyFive]

52. You wrote, "If a vegan is sickly, it's because they aren't eating right."

You wrote, "If a vegan is sickly, it's because they aren't eating right. Simple as that."

I couldn't agree more! Most vegans I know do look sickly...dark circles under their eyes, slow and listless. What they need is a 20 oz Porterhouse steak. That'll get'em back in shape in no time.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alwynsw]

61. Oh! Look!

So soon the thread is beginning to sink to sexual slams.

[livinginphotographs]

62. Not sure what sexual slam I wrote.

He replied with a smart-ass comment, and I replied right back with one. :shrug:

[Heddi]

82. You called another poster a Prick

Totally uncalled for.

[livinginphotographs]

86. So is making meat jokes in an attempt to piss off vegs.

I call a spade a spade.

It's funny how veg-bashing is so tolerable hear on DU, but the minute someone gets called out for it, it's "uncalled for."

Please....

[Heddi]

125. You should read the rules

Personal attacks are against the rules of the site.

Disagreeing with your position or opinion isn't against the rules of the site.

That's why the prick comment was deleted...it had nothing to do with veg-bashing. It had to do with personally attacking another poster. Quite simple.

And you can disagree with someone without resorting to personal attacks. Look--I've done it successfully on DU for several years. I maybe have 10 deleted posts in 4 years.

It's not that hard, really.

[livinginphotographs]

127. I never wondered why the mods deleted that post.

I figured it wouldn't last very long anyway.

But I wonder why it's okay for him to post something meant to do nothing but antagonize someone, but it's not okay for me to call him a name.

[Heddi]

132. Again I suggest you read the rules of DU

they've got a handy little link at the bottom of each page. It should answer your question in great detail.

---Although I can't understand why you have a problem differentiating between a difference of opinion (what you call "antagonization") and calling someone a prick. It's really simple...to me at least. Of course, I don't equate killing an Iraqi with slaughtering a cow...but that's just me.....

[livinginphotographs]

136. Can you just respond to one at a time?

Hopping all over this thread with the same response must be a real strain on you.

I've already addressed that post about the "murdering racist" or whatever. Just because it was misinterpreted by people who don't feel like making the effort to understand it is not my problem.

[Heddi]

139. Hoping all over the thread with the same tired hyperbole must be tiring

for you as well.

Sit and rest, shall we?

[livinginphotographs]

143. Did you even read my explanation of the "racist" post?

As for hyperbole, please point out where I've done that and I will quickly apologize.

[livinginphotographs]

138. ..

edit: double-post

[Catchawave]

178. Dennis Kuchinich is a vegan....

Looks ok to me!

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smbolisnch]

234. Awesome post!

:yourock:

[cattleman22]

236. RE: B12 and physiological adaptations

""They only thing most vegans ever need concern themselves with supplementing is b-12. In the past it was quite possible to get all the b-12 one needed from the water we drank but the rivers, streams and water basins are way too polluted with agri-business chemicals and other kinds of toxic wastes including feedlot sullage and industrial runoffs.""


This is innacurate. B12 is produced by bacteria during fermentation. Herbivores get B12 in two different ways. Foregut fermenters such as cattle and sheep, can directly absorb the B12 that is produced by bacteria in the rumen. Hindgut herbivores such as horses and rabbits get B12 and other vitamins by eating their own feces. No animal gets B12 from drinking river water.




""Are your "canines" that big? Of course not. Why? Because you are not bio-physically evolved to take down prey and tear through it's hide. Your muscles are not strong enough, you are too slow of foot and your vision and hearing pretty much suck too. All you are left with is your big brain. Humans have developed the ability to take meat, their physiology however remains that of an almost exclusively plant eating animal""


Again this is not accurate. Our digestive system is not set up like a herbivores. Herbivores have very specialized digestive systems. Plant material is far less digestible to mammals than is meat. The most abundant energy source in plant material is cellulose. Humans do not have one single gene that can digest cellulose. Other mammals have gotten around thid problem by having fermentation chambers in which bacteria break down the cellulose and release VFA which the animal can use for energy. Foregut fermenters such as cattle and sheep have a digestive tract physiology that is specialized for plant material. Hind gut fermenters such as horses and rabbits also have digestive tract physiology thaty is specialized for plant material. These species have greatly enlarged ceca. Humans too have a ceca. It is known as an appendix and is a useless vestigeal organ. In the past, human diets probably were more plant based. However we have evolved to eat more meat in our diets.

[Name removed]

238. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cattleman22]

244. I see, so your name shows your impartiality as well

About B12 in water. I had never heard of it before so I did a Pubmed search. B12 in water is used as a marker for fecal contamination. I also found one study that looked B12 levels in water.

"J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 1981;27(4):301-9. Related Articles, Links

Annual changes of vitamin B1, biotin and vitamin B12 in water in Lake Biwa.

Kurata A, Kadota H.

Annual changes in the concentrations of B1, biotin and B12 were investigated at the designated stations in the north basin (main basin) and south basin of lake Biwa. Sampling was carried out twice a week in spring and monthly in the other seasons throughout one year in the south basin, and in the same way for three years in the main basin from April of 1978 to December of 1980. The concentrations of B1, biotin and B12 in water of the main basin over three years ranged from 106.6 to 4.1 ng/liter, from 4.17 to 0.14 ng/liter and from 5.78 to 0.19 ng/liter, respectively. On the other hand, those in the south basin ranged from 268.7 to 9.7 ng/liter, from 11.50 to 0.12 ng/liter and from 6.06 to 0.20 ng/liter, respectively. The concentrations of these vitamins in the south basin of the lake were twice as high as those in the main basin. The concentrations of these three kinds of vitamins in water remarkably changed seasonally in both the north and south basins of the lake throughout the investigation period and were generally high in September and October at every station in the main basin, except for B1 and biotin in the south basin of the lake.

PMID: 7328439 "


The highest water level of B12 was reported at 6.06 ng/L. The average adult needs 2.4 micrograms of B12 per day, according to the University of Maryland Medical Center
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/VitaminB12Cobalamincs.html.


So if you do the calculation, a person needs to drink almost 400 Liters of water per day just to meet their daily requirement. That does not seem very likely.


""The human intestinal tract, like other frugivores features an oblong stomach and a corrugated, folded intestine twelve times the length of the body designed to retain food for as long as needed to extract nutrients from just this kind of food, a bad idea if you are shoveling flesh into it because flesh gets stuck in this system, not designed to handle it and putrefies. In contrast carnivores have an intestine only 3 times their length, true omnivores like bears and rats feature an intestine 8 times their length to our 12.""


That reasoning is entirely innacurate. Carnivores do not have short intestinal systems because the meat purtifies. They have short intestinal tracts because meat is highly digestible and readily absorbed. A longer tract would serve no purpose. True herbovires have intestinal tracts that 25-30 times their length. Seems to me you own data is showing that humans are omnivores.

[jeffrey_X]

245. "The facts are, most humans need meat to survive" = bullshit

"The facts are, most humans need meat to survive"

Sorry, but this is complete and udder bullshit. I several raw vegans who have lived this lifestyle for 30 years and they are the healthiest people I know. They don't need to see a doctor, because they never get sick.

[Warpy]

16. Genetic omnivores

don't have to skin, chop and/or cook flesh foods. When was the last time you used your teeth to tear through a hide to get at the raw meat below?

Nah, we're not genetic omnivores. We aren't adapted to eat raw flesh, so we adapted the flesh by butchering it, denaturing and sterilizing the protein though heat or chemicals.

If dentition doesn't convince you, try the GI tract. It's quite short in true carnivores so that meat of opportunity (carrion) can pass through quickly without infecting them. The human gut is very long, as is more suitable to vegetable foodstuffs.

Personally, I find this whole thing a little silly. Some people crave meat. Others don't much care for it. Suit yourselves. Just don't try to justify it with the size and shape of your teeth, not until you demonstrate how to rip through a deer hide and dine on what's below.

[alwynsw]

24. BUZZZ!

Try again. You missed.

[Warpy]

59. Post pictures, then

We could all use the laugh.

[alwynsw]

64. You want me to post cross sections?

I hate cut teeth.

on edit: hint: enamel and variety

[ashmanonar]

56. humans aren't genetic herbivores either...

our teeth don't have enough enamel on them to survive eating gritty and stringy plant matter intact...why do you think the front teeth on humans are slender and sharper(the incisors and canine teeth?) and the rear teeth are solid and broad, and suitable for grinding plant matter?

for that matter, while our GI tract may be longer than some animals, we do not have 4 stomaches, like many herbivores do, in order to digest the plant matter properly...

the way i personally see it, from all the evidence available to me, humans evolved as tool-using primates who ate whatever they could gather or hunt (where do you think the term "hunter-gatherer" comes from?)...the early hominids were fragile little creatures who nonetheless found strength in their cooperation and tool-use, to take on large game or even predators.
while eating only meat isn't good for you, eating only vegetable isn't either...

[Warpy]

63. Front teeth are ideally suited to eating fruits, roots and leaves

Back teeth for crushing seeds.

If you love meat, by all means eat it. Just remember that you need to butcher and cook or grind it before you do. That aint natural, folks.

Also, make sure you eat enough of that nasty, fibrous stuff. It'll prevent the colon cancer you'll get from an all meat diet.

[ashmanonar]

67. i never said that we are carnivores...

but i did say that meat is a part of a healthy diet, along with vegetables, fruits, and fiber.
btw, have you ever tried eating fruits, roots, and leaves without using the molars to grind them up?
yes, the incisors are used to bite off parts of fruits/vegetables, but that also makes them ideally suited to eating meat.


i do like meat, but that doesn't mean that i'm a carnivore...it means that meat happens to be what is given to me a good majority of the time, it's kinda hard to afford/go out for/cook all organic and vegetarian foods when you're in college, live in the dorms, and eat off the meal plan. i don't have a garden or a farm to grow my own food, so i make do with what i have in front of me.

[Warpy]

70. Try tearing through a deer hide

to get to the raw meat below. I dare you. Then get back to me on how ideal our teeth are for carnivores.

[ashmanonar]

71. since i don't hunt, and don't want to,

i can't take you up on your offer...but since you decided to just ignore most of my post, i'll leave it at that.

we're not all blessed with organic and vegetarian food that is readily available.

[Name removed]

233. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ashmanonar]

239. do you live where i live, and do you know me?

no, you don't...i don't have access to a car, i live in upper michigan (where it snows fuckin CONSTANTLY and is quite fuckin COLD), and the closest grocery store is a fuckin walmart. i live in a college town, that has fast food, a walmart, and more expensive stuff that i can't fuckin afford.

i'm a college student who doesn't have a part time job bc my parents make "too much money" for me to get work study so i could get a job on campus, i live in the oncampus dorms, and i have enough classes that getting a job somewhere else would be quite demanding...the meal plan i do have access to is pretty slim on vegetarian type foods, and i survive on whatever i can fuckin find to eat.

please don't pretend to understand me without having some knowledge of my life.

[MXMLLN]

235. We have brains ...

... therefore, we have no need to use our teeth to obtain and process raw meat.

[ashmanonar]

241. THANK YOU!

someone else who actually believes that humans are more than their innate physical abilities!

[Lorien]

102. The "check your teeth" comments are always absurd

look at a TRUE omnivore's teeth; raccoons and bears. Their canines are four times the size of ours!

The only mammals that can't live without meat are cats, mongoose, and hyena (obligate carnivores) all others can take it or leave it. In fact, check out the Guinness book of world records; the oldest living dog is a 27 year old border collie who has lived on a completely vegetarian diet his entire life!

[CarpeVeritas]

248. i'm also a mammal that CANNOT live without meat...

seriously- I have an autoimmune disorder that causes me to be allergic to dietary starch. i'm very limited as to the fruits & vegetables that i can eat, especially if they're cooked. I eat A LOT of meat- mostly fish, seafood & poultry, but also red meat- beef, lamb & pork.

[alwynsw]

179. Really?

If your post weren't so inane, I'd likely argue it.

Whether by design (definitely) or by choice (mostly), humans are most definitely omnivores. We eat what we can produce, catch, or kill. Before tools allowed us to kill large and/or fast animals there were always insects, grubs, etc. as well as other predators leavings for our ancestors to dine on.

AW, hell. Here I go. You mentioned the G.I. tract. Actually ours is middle of the road. It's far longer than the average carnivore and far shorter than the average herbivore. For example: we have only one stomach. It's a biological median G.I. tract that lends itself to all foods. Unlike birds, which are also almost all omnivores, we have teeth rather than a crop/craw and gizzard.

Tooth enamel: it's a medium thickness. Carnivores have very thin enamel while herbivores have very thick enamel to accomodate the grit involved with plants.

[Maru Kitteh]

243. BUZZZ! Wrong and wrong and wrong

We are biologically adapted as frugivores meaning we were designed to subsist mostly on fruits, succulent veggies, seeds nuts and some tubers. Grubs and insects are probably ok for your system too but flesh is biologically unhealthy for your gut and as a consequence, the rest of your body as well.

Gastrointestinal and tooth/jaw wise we are closest to the orangutan which subsists on fruit, leaves, shoots, flowers, creepers, fungi and tubers with some occasional (4%) bugs thrown in. I.E. frugivore.

Tooth enamel. (and structure) It is not designed for grazing, like a cow, it is however IDEAL for the frugivore diet our physiology dictates.

[smbolisnch]

19. Just because you think it's no big deal to go kill an innocent animal

does NOT mean that other people don't. The VERY LEAST you could do is put a warning in your subject line. Essentially all you are trying to do here is upset those people that DO CARE. I do, and I know MANY people here do. Take it to the hunting forum, it's sickening.

Flame away.

[alwynsw]

23. My heading

gave as much warning as the origination post.

Did you assume that "Meet my meat." would show a plate of asparagus?

[smbolisnch]

26. No, I thought it was going to be some snarky comment.

It is just inconsiderate and you knew that, but obviously didn't care. All I am asking is that you consider the feelings of others. Don't imagine that will happen.

[alwynsw]

29. Sorry you thought wrong.

You know the old saw about ASS U ME.

[smbolisnch]

33. No I didn't. Obviously you did.

Fortunately, I have class in 20 minutes. You'll have to enjoy your dead animal pictures without me. :eyes:

[alwynsw]

36. Circular. Purely circular.

"I know you are, but what am I" is not a valid debate tactic.

[Dave Reynolds]

207. She maybe was looking for a sex thread?

JOKE.

There would be no problem with our small teeth tearing through the thin skins in here, huh?

[smbolisnch]

208. As a matter of fact, I was expecting something much different.

I thought I was going to see a picture of one of those giraffe thongs for men or something. Would have been nice if it was something like that. I guess I spend too much time in the lounge where people have a sense of humor :shrug:

[Dave Reynolds]

212. Yep,

the lounge is always a much safer place. I only come out here when I want to make an ass of myself.

:-)

[smbolisnch]

213. Haha, I think we can agree on that!

You can always find at least 10 people that will disagree with you and want to start a pissing match in GD. It is a scary place!! :scared:

[Walt Starr]

25. I think your post was uncalled for

Last I checked, hunting was 100% legal and his photograph is 100% concerned with the subject of the thread.

[smbolisnch]

28. I think his post was uncalled for. nt

[Walt Starr]

32. His post was legitimate

Unlike your complaint.

[smbolisnch]

35. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Is it alright with you if I

don't agree with you?? :eyes:

[alwynsw]

34. How can one have a valid discussion or argument IF

opposing viewpoints are disallowed?

[alwynsw]

31. It's only uncalled for if one is in the opposition camp.

Thanks, Walt.

[rniel]

30. Your right

I don't care for the PETA posts on here.

[alwynsw]

42. PETA started off in the proper direction.

It's just sad that the organization was hijacked by the loonies.

They really need to get back to the spay/neuter pets and responsible animal husbandry themes and step away from their current platform. When is the last time you saw a well-fed, well-cared-for cow that gave a hoot if it pooped in a field that was marked off into 100 squares for a fundraiser?

[donheld]

44. So you hunt and actually USE the animal in many ways.

Don't let anyone tell you what you're doing is wrong. I'm not about to hunt, i'm far too lazy, but i am not at all offended if someone does. I'm totally pissed off if the hunting is just for the "fun of killing." I'm not going to argue with any of these people about "genetic omnivores." What pisses me off is people who try to guilt us all into being vegitarians. Some of these people are as bad as evangelical Xtians.

[alwynsw]

51. Thanks for your support.

They can keep telling me I'm wrong. I can keep hunting and eating well. It balances out. Kinda sorta.

[Squatch]

65. Nice one.

I drew a goose egg last season. Getting really hard to find public hunting lands or private property on which the owners will let you hunt.

Well, there's always fishing.

[T Town Jake]

76. Good-looking Buck, what'd you take it with?...

...Deer season is always one of my favorite times of years - not only are we hunters doing a public service (and helping the ecosystem), Deer meat is delicious!

[alwynsw]

123. Got that one with a Ruger .44 mag carbine at about 40 yds.

It was the predecessor to the 10-44. It was born in 1964. One 240 HP through the vitals in heavy brush.

[Damien]

99. one thought for you

You said:
"I'll look for better ways of animal husbandry when over a third of the world's human population is no longer undernourished or starving."

You can grow 5 times the non-meat product for the land use that you can grow animals. That is, if an acre can produce one unit of "meat" food, it can produce 5 units of "non-meat" food.

That's a good incentive not to eat meat if you are worried about global problems like hunger.

That said, I'm a vegetarian that does respect hunters. People who can kill animals understand where it is coming from a lot better. The people I cannot stand are those that say they could never hurt and animal while chewing on a big mac.

We all need to try to abolish factory farming -- cruelty is cruelty. Eating meat is one thing -- I don't try to persuade people on that. Torturing the animals is quite another.

[achtung_circus]

193. Economics.

A great deal of the land used for grazing is not suitable for cropping. The world food problem is not one of production- it's one of distribution. Even if all the corn and barley currently used as animal feed were no longer fed to animals the people who need it most, say in Africa, cannot afford to buy it from the corn and barley farmers currently producing animal feed.

[SmokingJacket]

101. I couldn't *personally* shoot a deer, but

if a person's going to eat meat, it seems far less cruel to let an animal live a free and autonomous life outside of a cage than to breed it on a farm -- particularly a factory farm.

Animal rights people should leave hunters alone until farms have been made more humane.

[Stirk]

Good for you.

You've got just the right attitude and a healthy outlook, in my opinion. We're just as much a natural part of the world as any other creature. There's nothing immoral or cruel about hunting. I don't cause unnecessary suffering, either- and I don't feel guilty about performing a basic, natural function.

[truth2power]

159. I don't see anything to smile about, there.

Sorry, just MHO.

[jesusq]

189. Bless you, great white hunter!

I would be a great white hunter like you, but my vegan wife won't let me. So I am forced (actually compelled by my sexual addiction, since wifey won't play if I kill Bambi's momma) to shoot my Yugo SKS at paper targets rather than things with a pulse.

But for the benefit of animal lovers and sportsmen alike, let me share some observations.

#1.) Deer procreate like crazy and if they were not hunted by men (note: deer are far more adaptable to living in (sub)urban areas than their natural enemies are) they would starve, which is probably more miserable than being shot, assuming the hunter is skilled.

#2.) Who comes up with these hunting laws? One week for muzzle loader season, one week for shot guns, one week for pea-shooters, cross-bows and all year long for bow and arrow? If we care about hunting humanely, we ought to give preference to skilled hunters with semi-automatic weapons. At least skilled marksmen equipped with the best tools could perform more humane kills.

#3.) In PA where I live, you cannot hunt with a semi-automatic rifle, which means, if you hit a deer, but don't manage to kill it, you probably won't have time to reload, aim and get a second shot with a bolt-action rifle. This means, poor Bambi must gradually bleed to death, rather than get an express ticket to deer heaven, thanks to a timely second round. I have tremendous respect for hunters who use primitive hunting methods; it takes tremendous skill, patience and sportsmanship, but primitive methods aren't always best from the deer's point of view.

#4.) Let Jesus RANT. PETA types, do us a favor and keep a low profile in the future. Many blue-collar democrats (you know; second class liberals who used to be valued by the party, but now vote republican) like to hunt and fish. Franky , if the stereotypical democrat was a working class guy wearing cammos who enjoys hunting and fishing, rather than the dweeb, bespectacled intellectual wearing acorduroy sport coat with suede elbow patches, we LIBERALS would be in freaking charge of this great land, rather than gnashing our teeth in frustration.

I am a gun enthusiast and a liberal ... in fact, I am a socialist. I admit this to fellow sotters at rifle and pistol ranges while surrounded by hard-core conservatives (I never get in a argument from repugs, but the assault rifle I shoot might be part of the reason); and I have some news for you ... there are an awful lot of republican voters who are in 75% agreement with the Democratic party, but the 25% they cannot reconcile themselves with is being part of a political party that ridicules their lifestyle (way of life) and the things that are important to them (whether you understand it or not).

Pass me a deer steak ... yummy!

[Must_B_Free]

215. MY meat can't be beat

that's what she says anyway.

[Maru Kitteh]

237. The worlds poor are undernourished and starving BECAUSE of increased

meat consumption. Sorry to blow the shit out of your little comfort bubble there but the evidence is overwhelming, inescapable and undeniable.

"In a world where an estimated on in every six people goes hungry every day, the politics of meat consumption are increasingly heated, since meat production is an inefficient use of grain - the grain is used more efficiently when consumed directly by humans. Continued growth in meat output is dependent on feeding grains to animals, creating competition for grain between affluent meat eaters and the worlds poor" - Worldwatch Institute

Most countries that have experienced increased demand for meat or countries which now export flesh products have a similar, predictable set of tragic problems. Their troubles begin when they switch from an agriculture growing grain to feed people to an agriculture growing grain to feed animals so the affluent among them can enjoy flesh and we can get fat and enjoy our fast food. As a consequence, the poor majority of those countries have seen the price of their staple foods skyrocket, because even though per acreage grain yields have risen exponentially in the last 50 years, many of these former grain exporters are now grain importers because of the rising demands of the worlds most inefficient major food source, the cow. The poor of these countries cannot afford the meat that is decimating their environment, and the staples once grown to feed them are now too expensive to sustain them as well.

You care about the worlds hungry? Then put that burger down and work on moving the world agriculture back to one that supports human life instead of bovine proliferation.

[Zynx]

242. Nice deer!!

And tastes great too.

[Walt Starr]

2. Many of the practices in the video are new, but others have been standard

for centuries.

My wife is a member of PETA, but I can still see eating meat.

Free range chickens and eggs actually taste better than the meat and eggs produced in factory farms. Same holds true for beef and pork. If you do a taste test between what you get in a supermarket and meat that was raised by the older family farm raising standards, which are not economically viable these days, you'll see the difference.

[JuniperLea]

6. take care of people first i say

"older family farm raising standards, which are not economically viable these days"

it all comes down to money.

too bad people aren't made a priority before animals. there are starving people all over the world, yet money is spent on videos like this. i hate cruelty to animals, but i REALLY hate so much attention and money being put towards animals BEFORE people. i think it's hella cruel and insensitive to spend all that energy when little human babies could have used all that effort. sad.

[livinginphotographs]

55. Not a multi-tasker?

This has been addressed so many times, it's really getting old.

Maybe you should write the Human Rights Campaign and demand that they stop the struggle for gay rights and focus on the genocide in Sudan. Maybe you should write the Death Penalty Information Center and ask them to stop advocating abolition of the death penalty and focus on setting up homeless shelters.

PETA and other animal rights organizations spend their money on their one issue: animal rights. To say that it's a "waste" is pretty insulting to the entire cause, IMO.

[Krinkov]

146. theres a difference..

all your examples are comparisons of forms HUMAN suffering.. The fact remains peta is on a totally different page by focusing purely on the suffering of LOWER BEASTS, often in a way that interferes with human livelihoods (i.e. protesting elephant training in the third world where there are little other possibilities of income)

And in anticipation of the inevitable "what makes you think humans are any better? That's part of the chauvanistic christian attitude of man above nature!" i say: lets see a holstein calf grow up to cure cancer.

People can waste their money however they want, but i'm sorry, when i see legions of moneyed celebrities lending their faces and dollars to PETA, it seems a little twisted.

Like watching a heiress socialite with a chihuahua adjusting his itty bitty pet coat against the cold weather while a shivering homeless guy watches from nearby.

"animals are innocent and guiltless, unlike humans.. Theyre easier to feel affection towards"

[livinginphotographs]

148. Sorry to see you're in such short supply of compassion.

I obviously have more than enough to go around, since I can focus on the suffering of many, as opposed to just creatures that look like me.

[TwentyFive]

4. Former vegan & vegetarian here.

Some people should eat meat. Several nutritionists out there confirm this. I was on a vegetarian diet, then vegan diet and will never go back. I gained weight, lost energy and just didn't feel good. I'll never go back. I know vegetarian works for some, but not me.

Also, it's a fact of nature that most prey animals meet with an early and untimely death. Chickens, cows, fish etc. get killed everyday by preadtors. However, I do think some of the practices by corporate farms should be outlawed - billclipping, cage restraints, force feeding....that stuff is just cruel, and is only done to line the pockets of giant corporations.

[JuniperLea]

9. same here

for over five years i stuck to veg eating only... lost my hair, gained weight, my teeth suffered, my eyesight and muscle strength suffered... it all turned around when i added lacto/ovo... then meat.

[smbolisnch]

21. It is silly to assume that not eating meat caused that.

If you were eating a balanced diet and taking supplements, you should have had no reason for that to happen. If you didn't eat well, it's understandable.

Several nutritionists out there confirm this.
-Really? I haven't heard that but I'd love a link to this. Otherwise, please don't state that "nutritionists" say it's so. :eyes:

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[livinginphotographs]

48. She doesn't need to be a nutritionist to say that a vegetarian diet

Will not necessarily cause the symptoms you described. Lots of people are vegans, and not all of them are losing their hair, their teeth, etc. The ones that are either have some unrelated medical condition or have a really bad diet.

It's a matter of substituting the nutrients you get from meat, and that can be done very easily. Some people just don't bother to do it, so we get the "vegan=sickly" stereotype.

[flvegan]

72. You offered medical opinion in your post. Are you a nutritionist?

Didn't think so.

[smbolisnch]

175. Why should I keep my opinions to myself?

You haven't. All I was asking for was a link to back up such a ludicrous statement. Obviously, you don't have one.

[alwynsw]

173. Call me silly.

If you were eating a balanced diet and taking supplements, you should have had no reason for that to happen. If you didn't eat well, it's understandable.

If supplements are necessary, how can the diet be blanced?

[smbolisnch]

176. Supplements are recommended with ANY diet.

It's not my problem if you don't feel you need them.

[alwynsw]

180. Supplements are NOT recommended if one is eating a properly

balanced diet. According to what I learned in diet and nutrition classes, if one is eating a balanced diet, supplements are a waste of money unless you prefer pretty colors in your urine.

Try again.

[smbolisnch]

185. Really? Then why do doctors put women on pre-natal vitamins?

Why do they recommend women chew calcium supplements etc? Why do parents give their kids Flintstones vitamins? You try again. :eyes:

[MrSandman]

198. Maybe because...

the food is grown in such mass quantities that it lacks the nutritive value of the past.

Maybe the Flintstones are only enhancing the diets, and then how many children get 5-7 fruits/veggies a day?

[smbolisnch]

199. " it lacks the nutritive value of the past"

Well there goes the meat eaters favorite argument, right out the window. People love to say that we NEED meat and vegetarians/vegans are malnourished etc.

I would love to compare a vegan diet with any meat eater's diet on this board. No doubt, the vegan's is MUCH more well rounded. Meat does not provide any "necessary" nutrients.

[MrSandman]

200. I said that where?

I simply believe that the foods I purchase at the grocers do not have the equivalent nutritive value of those which I grow, or those I purchase at the Farmer's Market.

No anti-vegan bigotry here.

On edit...especially those awful, genetically designe hothouse tomatoes...s

[smbolisnch]

201. I didn't mean you used that as an argument, but that so many

meat eaters do. Misunderstanding, and I agree with your comment about the supermarket :)

[alwynsw]

225. Not this meat eater.

Farm boy here.

[MrSandman]

230. Video's like this are...

IMHO, less effective than education about meat-eating in moderation.

A vegan diet can be healthier, witness the 7th Day Adventists. However, it is unlikely that omnivorous folk will be converted to herbivorous habits in the interests of animals. Educate them about the health benefits of moderate meat intake and the demand that creates egregious animal abuse will be reduced.

[alwynsw]

224. No necessary nutrients?

What about the B vitamins? B-12 for example. Can't digest without B-12. Oh, that's right. Veg's get it in a supplement because it's not found in a vegan diet.

Also, what about the metabolism of iron from plants as opposed to the iron found in meat? The iron from meat is much easier to use. Oh! That's right! Supplements to balance the diet again.

[Liberal Veteran]

240. Well, I certainly need meat....

I've tried vegetarianism and as a person with advanced HIV disease, I cannot maintain my body weight without meat (soy protein is simply not as bioavailable as meat protein). Sad, but true. I simply cannot eat enough and many vegetables trigger diarrhea for me which sorta makes it even harder.

[alwynsw]

223. Here ya go!

Why do they recommend women chew calcium supplements etc?

because they're not getting sufficient calcium in their improperly balanced diets. The exception to this would be in the instance of a condition that either leaches calcium from the system or inhibits proper use of same by the body.

Why do parents give their kids Flintstones vitamins?

See my answer above. Madison Avenue also plays a large role in this.

Then why do doctors put women on pre-natal vitamins?

Could it be because they're not getting the proper nutrition in their diets? Also, pregnancy is not the usual condition of the female of childbearing age.

[unpossibles]

227. ok

What about the B vitamins? B-12 for example. Can't digest without B-12. Oh, that's right. Veg's get it in a supplement because it's not found in a vegan diet.

B12 (which is available in nutritional yeast). Although it is essential, very small amounts are needed (1/1,000,000 of a gram (1 microgram) a day for adults)

Also, what about the metabolism of iron from plants as opposed to the iron found in meat? The iron from meat is much easier to use. Oh! That's right! Supplements to balance the diet again.
again, this is questionable. Although the iron in meat is a different kind and is more easily absorbed, this is not an issue with a balanced diet. Vitamin C help the body absorb non-heme (vegetable based) iron as well.

"The RDA for non-vegetarian men and post-menopausal women is 8 mg/day. Because of iron absorption issues in a healthful, high-fiber vegetarian diet, the RDAs for vegetarians are higher - 14 mg/day for vegetarian men and 33 mg/day for vegetarian women. The upper level of intake should not exceed 45mg/day."

This lower number is not hard to come up with on any balanced diet.

Why do they recommend women chew calcium supplements etc?

because they're not getting sufficient calcium in their improperly balanced diets. The exception to this would be in the instance of a condition that either leaches calcium from the system or inhibits proper use of same by the body.

ironically, excess protein has been linked to poor calcium absorption, and high levels of dietary calcium have been linked to low iron absorption. Guess cow's milk is not really a great source for any of that then.

Why do parents give their kids Flintstones vitamins?

See my answer above. Madison Avenue also plays a large role in this.
I agree 100%. Keep in mind also though that the same techniques work other places too. The people who grow and sell beef also provide those nifty nutritional handouts to schools.

[AFSCME girl]

5. Hi Goth...

I'm a veggie head and PETA member and have to admit I can't bring myself to order this video/DVD. I know it will be awful! :cry:

[Frangible]

8. I think those practices are wrong

But eating meat isn't.

[JuniperLea]

12. the only way to avoid scenes like this

is to support the american farmer.

[Heddi]

13. Seattle Local Access used to have a sponsor that showed Meet your Meat

at 8:00pm on wednesday nights.

Kind of rough programing for 8:00 at night, no?

The question I Have is:

who watches this?

If you're a member of PETA, or a hard-core Animal Rights/Animal Welfare person, surely YOU couldn't sit and watch animals being slaughtered or tortured or beaten.

And I've never met a meat-eater who WANTED to watch it. Of course, I come from the country where most people raise and butcher their own livestock and don't electrocute horses or drown cattle or whatever things they show being done in the video. Quick bullet to the head of a cow and hey! hamburgy!

I rarely eat meat--hubby and I pretty much only eat chicken, and on a rare basis. We don't not eat meat more because of the humane-aspect of it....we just don't really like eating alot of meat. I'm more rice-n-potatoes myself.

But even with that in mind--who watches these tapes? And how can someone (not you, but I presume that since PETA puts out these videos, and the majority of them are owned by PETA members) who is against factory farming, etc, and for the humane treatment of animals---how can you (again, not you---editorial you) watch that?

I'm against rape....but I don't proclaim my againstness of rape by owning video tapes of rape, or watching rape scenes on the computer to remind me why I'm against rape :shrug:

I hope my question isn't seen as offensive---I really don't mean for it to be....but after accidentally catching Meet Your Meet on ch 77 in Seattle many times...I wonder who the target audience for this show is?

[livinginphotographs]

60. The point is not to show it to the converted.

The point is to show it to meat-eaters to see if they're okay with this stuff going on in order to make their dinner.

[Heddi]

69. There are alot of "GRUESOME" things in this world

Have you ever seen (I mean REALLY SEEN) a bilateral salpingo-oophorectomy and total abdominal hysterectomy? I have on SEVERAL occasions. They're quite grotesque (especially when one is standing right at the head of the patient seeing the entire surgery, from the intial shave to the last suture.

Does that mean we need to do away with bilateral salpingo-oophorectomies and total abdominal hysterectomies? They're gross.

So too are surgeries where they cut into the bone---to add growth plates, to replace a joint, to repair....they're really gross. The smell in the operating room is HORRENDOUS (burning bone + burning flesh = nasty).

But I don't suppose that you'd suggest that people be forced to watch videos of surgeries before they decide whether or not they support that surgery, or before they decide whether to have that surgery.

There are gruesome things to all parts of life. My husband, who is in nursing school (as am I), is queasy at the site of vaginal births & cesearan sections. He's not anti-birth, and his choice to be or not be a father isn't based on his unwillingness to be in the room at the same time a squirming little alien is coming through a vaginal canal.

I find slaughter of animals vile. I find hip replacement surgery vile, and I fainted and ran out the room to vomit the first time I saw a hip replacement surgery. My disgust with slaughter doesn't disgust me enough to not eat meat, and my disgust with hip replacement surgery doesn't mean that I don't think the surgery should be made less available, or that I think it's a barbaric act.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I suppose I am able to remove my emotions from the task, and remove the task from my emotions. I can support something and be sickened by it at the same time. I can find something visually appealing and at the same time disagree with the process.

Strange how that works, eh?

BTW--after living in Seattle for many years, and knowing MANY people---vegans, veggies, and omnivores alike, I never found ONE...not ONE who had ever watched Meet Your Meat.

Again----I'm anti-Child Porn, but I don't need to watch Child Porn to remind myself why I'm against it. Equally, I don't need to force others to watch Child Porn to let them know why I think it's a heinous thing......

[livinginphotographs]

You're missing the point.

Your child porn example is irrelevant. It might hold up if this thread were anti-child porn and the meat-eating posters were defending child porn. The majority (I hope) of people are against child porn, and don't need to be reminded of why.

Meat-eaters who go through life without a second thought to how the meat got on their plate might have second thoughts if they see the brutality involved. Then they have to decide if they want to support practices like that, or make an effort to change.

My decision to not eat meat was not based on "Meet Your Meat" because I already knew that sort of thing went on. But once you know, you either have to deny it to continue eating meat, or decide that it's okay. I couldn't do either. It was not based on converting others either, it was because I decided that I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I continued supporting this sort of thing.

Really the only reason I get involved in threads such as these to point out how misinformed people are when they assume all vegans are unhealthy, or spout BS such as "People for the eating of tasty animals" jokes.

[Heddi]

81. I really don't care why you get involved in these threads

And I don't like how you responded to my thread and insinuated that I'm a misinformed person who thinks all vegans are unhealthy, etc.

You said that the video is for the "unconverted" to see something and think about it as they eat the steak on their plate (or something like that).

I notice that you made no comments about the gruesome nature of surgery. And not all surgery is medically necessary. Should we require people who want to undergo prophylactic or on-demand surgeries to see gruesome videos of their sugeries? To see the chipping of bone or cauterizing of tissue? Should we force them to smell flesh under a cautery iron so that they can have full knowledge of their surgery?

And in all of my years on this planet, I've never met a SINGLE person who was ignorant to how animals are slaughtered. I've never met a SINGLE person who thought that the cows that provided steak just went to pasture, closed their eyes, and died peacefully without a moo of protest.

I've seen meet your meat. I still eat meat. It's not denial that causes me to still eat meat any more than its denial to still talk to patients about elective hip replacement surgery. Both are unnecessary, biologically speaking. But they're things people choose to do.

Choice is a wonderful thing.

[livinginphotographs]

89. WTF?

You asked a question, which I noticed you said was not to offend anyone, I tried to answer it, and then you get offended?

As far as you saying vegans being unhealthy, I insinuated nothing of the sort. Many other posters on this thread have tried to say that, and I was referring to them.

Surgery is beneficial. Slaughtering an animal is not (At least to the animal). That's a completely ridiculous comparison.

[Heddi]

110. Not all surgery is beneficial

Breast Enhancement surgery isn't beneficial. In fact, it's been shown to be terribly detrimental to many people.

Even surgeries that are beneficial carry some risks.

I don't think that you can point to ANYONE (who isn't directly involved with animal rights groups) that says EATING ANY AMOUNT OF MEAT IS BAD FOR YOU. If there are ANY nutritionists (again, who aren't working on a pro-vegetarian/vegan agenda) who say That eating meat, in any quantity, or in any amount, is completely toxic to the human body, then I would REALLY love to see that.

Equating surgery to slaughter is a valid comparison. Some people need surgery, so they get it. Some people need food, so they get it where they can. Of course many people eat more meat than is healthy for htem. That isn't to say that meat is UNHEALTHY. Likewise, consuming too much of ANYTHING will have negative effects. If I drink too much Alcohol, I can get chirrosis. But a glass of wine a night will not damage my liver (lest I have underlying conditions which preempt me to liver damage).

Equally, there are people for whom meat IS a significant part of their diet. Eggs...milk...dairy products. To say to them "oh no, mr Tsutsi, you musn't eat meat. You must find some form of agriculture that is sustainable in your environment and can provide the nutrition that your body needs to survive" is just assenine.

You do realize that there are many people in, say, Africa, who MUST drink Goat Milk, Eat Goat Cheese, and Eat Goat Flesh to survive because they have no agricultural sustainabilty in that region. They cannot produce enough crops to feed themselves AND get the protein needed to live in their harsh environment.

But they eat meat, so they're just misguided, correct?

Were all the thousands of years of human meat consumption misguided as well? Were we all blind to the fact that our bodies were never meant to eat meat until PETA came along and gave us enlightment? Were the "Cavemen" misguided by their ability to make tools with which they could hunt animals? Perhaps we should start chastizing from the begining of time, eh?

BTW---the dwelling that you live in caused the displacement of indigenous animals. The fact that you continue to live in your dwelling is ensuring that indigenous animals can never reclaim the land upon which you live. Trees were cleared for the roads you drive on and nests were bulldozed for the land you sit on.

Why are animal rights more important WRT feeding others? Why are those of us who choose to eat meat suggested to re-arrange our lifestyle and our tastes to accomodate for the animals, yet you're allowed to sit in your house (in order for your house to be built, animals were displaced), drive your car (in order for roads to be built, animals were displaced), use electricity, etc---all of the things that YOU do are equally damaging to animals and their habitats....yet meat-eaters are the ones who are told to change.....

Strange how that shoe doesn't fit the other foot....

[livinginphotographs]

119. Strange how your post is filled with the same shit I hear on a daily basis

But since you have the time to feign indignation, I'll play along.

Breast Enhancement surgery isn't beneficial. In fact, it's been shown to be terribly detrimental to many people.

Even surgeries that are beneficial carry some risks.

Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I couldn't generalize a bit, that you need every little thing qualified. I'll tell you what: I'll get to work on a list of all the surgeries that are beneficial, compared with the ones that are not, and edit my post to not say "surgery" but to list each and every procedure that is beneficial. Will that help?

I don't think that you can point to ANYONE (who isn't directly involved with animal rights groups) that says EATING ANY AMOUNT OF MEAT IS BAD FOR YOU. If there are ANY nutritionists (again, who aren't working on a pro-vegetarian/vegan agenda) who say That eating meat, in any quantity, or in any amount, is completely toxic to the human body, then I would REALLY love to see that.

It's not eating meat per se, it's the crap they put in the meat that makes it unhealthy. You never see a doctor telling a patient with high blood pressure, "Okay, you need to go home and eat a steak," do you? And since I'm not a doctor, and you seem to be just itching to break out a degree or two, I'll go ahead and admit that I have no medical background and am not qualified argue medicine with you. Feel better?

Equating surgery to slaughter is a valid comparison. Some people need surgery, so they get it. Some people need food, so they get it where they can. Of course many people eat more meat than is healthy for htem. That isn't to say that meat is UNHEALTHY. Likewise, consuming too much of ANYTHING will have negative effects. If I drink too much Alcohol, I can get chirrosis. But a glass of wine a night will not damage my liver (lest I have underlying conditions which preempt me to liver damage).

Equally, there are people for whom meat IS a significant part of their diet. Eggs...milk...dairy products. To say to them "oh no, mr Tsutsi, you musn't eat meat. You must find some form of agriculture that is sustainable in your environment and can provide the nutrition that your body needs to survive" is just assenine.

Who's saying "must"? I just hope to discuss with people the moral implications of eating meat. Unfortunately, most of those conversations end up like this, with you accusing me of trying to convert you, burn your village, stomp on your flower bed, etc.

You do realize that there are many people in, say, Africa, who MUST drink Goat Milk, Eat Goat Cheese, and Eat Goat Flesh to survive because they have no agricultural sustainabilty in that region. They cannot produce enough crops to feed themselves AND get the protein needed to live in their harsh environment.

But they eat meat, so they're just misguided, correct?

No. That's what their environment provides. Just like I can't fault a lion for eating a zebra, I can't fault these people for eating what's available. I CAN fault people in the richest country in the world for not having the creativity to come up with a source of food that doesn't involve torturing and slaughtering animals.

Were all the thousands of years of human meat consumption misguided as well? Were we all blind to the fact that our bodies were never meant to eat meat until PETA came along and gave us enlightment? Were the "Cavemen" misguided by their ability to make tools with which they could hunt animals? Perhaps we should start chastizing from the begining of time, eh?

Addressed above. And stop bringing up PETA, I don't like them either for the most part, and I get tired of having to take the role of PETA-apologist. Just a hint, the animal rights movement does not just consist of PETA and its members.

BTW---the dwelling that you live in caused the displacement of indigenous animals. The fact that you continue to live in your dwelling is ensuring that indigenous animals can never reclaim the land upon which you live. Trees were cleared for the roads you drive on and nests were bulldozed for the land you sit on.

Why are animal rights more important WRT feeding others? Why are those of us who choose to eat meat suggested to re-arrange our lifestyle and our tastes to accomodate for the animals, yet you're allowed to sit in your house (in order for your house to be built, animals were displaced), drive your car (in order for roads to be built, animals were displaced), use electricity, etc---all of the things that YOU do are equally damaging to animals and their habitats....yet meat-eaters are the ones who are told to change.....

Entirely different issue. What you're bringing up is the problem with sprawl, and I have a problem with that as well. Humans are allowed to live on the Earth; I'm not saying that they're not. Minimizing their impact and living within an ecosystem rather than attempting to enslave it is the preferable route. Not sure what problem you'll have with that, but I'm sure there'll be one.

Strange how that shoe doesn't fit the other foot....

Um, huh?

[Damien]

114. small difference

the difference between cosmetic surgery and eating meat is that in surgery they are only hurting themselves -- they do not violate anything else's agency. In killing, they are violating another's agency. Just consider that difference.

[Arkana]

117. I don't know why this is an issue

People who want to eat meat should without being made to feel guilty. People who don't should be allowed to be vegetarians. Why is this an issue?

[AlienGirl]

190. Who's MAKING you feel anything?

You always have the option of not looking, or looking and not caring.

Tucker

[T Town Jake]

98. "the converted"...Jeesuz....

...I've long suspected that the Vegan/PETA types are just as bug-eyed fanatical as Jerry Falwell's Fundamentalist followers are about their beliefs - and your post confirms it.

Check this out:
"The point is to show it to meat-eaters to see if they're okay with this stuff going on in order to make their dinner"

Now, let's do a little word substitution, Fundy-style:

"The point is to show it to meat-eaters HEATHENS to see if they're okay with this stuff BLASPHEMY going on in order to make commit their dinner SINS."

Shoe = fit, and worn.

[livinginphotographs]

104. I can't believe you wasted your time typing that.

But it's your life. Just don't expect it to make sense.

My point is that if you're okay with the moral implications of eating meat, you should really be getting your rocks off on the linked video. Otherwise, you're in denial. This has nothing to do with religion or fundie-ism.

[T Town Jake]

113. Every fanatic I've ever run across...

...has been equally dismissive when their precious Holy of Holies has been reasonably questioned and laid bare for the horseshit that it is, so I expected nothing different from you.

Thanks for the motivation though; I now know what I'm having for dinner in about an hour: a big fat Tenderloin at my favorite steak house in town. I just got off the phone making the last-minute reservations for my wife and I - and this thread was the inspiration. Yum-yum...

[livinginphotographs]

120. Glad to see that instead of actually sitting around discussing the issue

And admitting that your dinner was tortured and slaughtered, then admitting that you don't care, you can just keep living in your little world of denial, coming out every once in a while to call those of us who can extend compassion past our own species "fanatics."

I'm sure the DU Anti-Veg Hit Squad will be just fine in your absence.

on edit: make sure you run over some squirrels on the way to the restaurant. You can think of them as an appetizer.

[Heddi]

128. I'm really curious

as to whether you've ever taken a course in logic or debate.

they're a great use of money. Just a couple of bucks.....check into it.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heddi]

137. well your circular logic has me in a dizzy tizzy

it's fun though.

Please. Keep equating dead iraqi children with a cow. Please, keep insulting the iraqi's by comparing them to our bovine friends.

you've never explained how killing a cow = being a racist wanting to kill an "ay-rab" (as you so thoughtfully called them). Please explain how cow=human.

please.

pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese

[livinginphotographs]

144. Cow=human because

Life is life. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I somehow have any more of a right to exist than an animal.

[Liberal Veteran]

149. Bugs...algae....grass...weeds....bacteria.....

All life.

[livinginphotographs]

150. Fine, I'll bite.

Not that I haven't already done this numerous times before.

Animals have a central nervous system. They feel pain, they have some form of consciousness.

So bye bye to the "plants feel pain too!" argument.

[smurfygirl]

17. meat is dead

it's what is rotting in your colon.

[BiggJawn]

38. But beans make more unsociable byproducts...

"TOOT!"
It ALL "rots" in your colon, Smurfygirl...Except Corn Kernels, those things are invunerable...

[alwynsw]

49. Hence the old line

"I'd eat the corn out of...."

Thanks for the laugh!

[ChairOne]

18. I wish only that I could kill the cow myself.... /eom

[Walt Starr]

39. I've done it, it ain't no thang

and the dehorning, castration, and branding are all things I've done, too. No big thang.

[ChairOne]

47. Nice! /eom

[DrWeird]

79. Did you butcher it to?

Looks like a real pain in the ass.

[Walt Starr]

231. Nah, you use a saw

Ain't no thang.

I butchered meat for a while in a large restaurant, too.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tsiyu]

66. mature comment

Most people join the armed services to protect and serve their nation, not to "kill stuff."


And most people who coo and fret over farm animals have never lived on a farm.

Chickens -even freerange- will peck one another to death. They will peck other birds to death. I have no fantasy visions of happy little Disney chickens all getting along. Nature is brutal, whether we "agree" with Nature or not.

I'd love to see PETA do a film on the cruelty of animals to one another.

That being said, I eat no beef and as little other meat as possible because of the way livestock are raised/slaughtered. The difference between a fresh freerange chicken breast and a store bought one is the difference between ambrosia and rubber. there are farms that sell "organically' raised meats and I plan on stocking up when my rich uncle gets out of the Poorhouse.

I do miss hamburgers and steak. Sorry, animal lovers. Beef tastes GOOD.

[livinginphotographs]

74. I was being sarcastic.

(since the post is gone, you'll have to take my word for it).

His comment about "Wish ah coulda keeyalled that cow mahself" sounded like those gung-ho racists who join up and can't wait to go to Iraq to kill some Ay-rabs.

[Heddi]

85. Yeah. Eating Meat...being a racist sociopath....compeltely the same thing

Uh....yeah.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

90. I'd be interested in slaughtering and butchering my own cow.

Seems to me to be much better than buying frozen hamburger in a grocery store with nary a thought to where it came from.

You aren't one of those people that compares chicken farming to the Holocaust, are you?

I mean, because you compared an Iraqi to a cow after all.

[livinginphotographs]

95. I compared someone who is thirsting to kill something

To a sociopath. I apologize.

I guess Bush was okay when he stuck firecrackers up frog's asses. After all, they're just frogs, right? :shrug:

[DrWeird]

172. No, that'd be animal cruelty.

Are you unable to see the difference, or are you just being disruptive?

[flvegan]

73. Eating meat is a selfish act.

Deal with it.

The human body doesn't need it. As a matter of fact, it's detrimental to the body. It's a waste of agriculture, and we can thank livestock yards in part for our global warming. Pollution, health, animal suffering...but it tastes good!

People eat meat because it tastes good. It's a matter of want (excluding those living in remote areas that don't have agricultural options, of course). I'm not judging anyone. Just like having a monster suv is selfish. Cutting someone off in traffic is selfish. Hell, going through the 12 item or less line with 15 items is selfish. We're all selfish in some way or another. Eating meat is just one really big selfish act.

[Walt Starr]

77. Eating anything is a selfish act

Eating only benefits the eater, and all eating depends upon something else dying.

Don't want to eat meat, that's your problem. I'll laugh about it the next time I bite into a nice juicy piece of medium rare prime rib.

[flvegan]

80. Zoom! Right over yer head, eh?

In the face of obvious suffering, to choose to support it, when one doesnt NEED to, is selfish.

Hey, compassion is an acquired taste, I suppose. Guess you'll laugh at the next event caused by global warming, too. The pollution of water supplies due to manure lagoons, that's pretty funny as well. Oh, yes, starving children that could be fed if we weren't mowing down the amazon rain forest to raise soy for beef...that's f'ing hilarious. Yes, please, laugh long and hard.

[DrWeird]

88. I'm sure some of your vegetables could have been donated to starving kids.

I mean, if you weren't so greedy.

[flvegan]

93. I don't know if that's funny or just lame.

I'm doing what I can as far as my diet goes.

[DrWeird]

97. And how much do you donate to poor kids, hmm?

Are using your own computer, or is this a library computer?

[flvegan]

103. Like I said, dietary, friend, didn't I?

Your need to attack things outside this scope certainly states something.

[DrWeird]

171. If you're going to attack based on charity...

you damn sure better be charitable yourself.

[flvegan]

214. Right back to attacking rather than answering.

Typical.

I have no need to defend my charity. You can't touch me.

[Walt Starr]

91. I bet the people starving would LOVE soem of that meat

:eyes:

You just don;t get it. Somebody above stated that you don;t know if plants feel pain. They might! That apple may be silently screaming as yhou eat it.

Don;t shove tofu down my throat, mkay?

[Liberal Veteran]

108. Shut up and enjoy your screaming soy curd!

:)

[Liberal Veteran]

107. Of course farms NEVER pollute water ways or destroy eco-systems?

Let's be realistic. I daresay anything outside of a family garden plot is detrimental to something, whether it be fertilizer runoff, pesticide runoff, or destruction of ecosystems for land and diversion of waterways for irrigation and watering of plants.

Quite honestly, it doesn't matter if you eat meat or vegetables, if you are eating anything that didn't grow naturally in the location you found it, then you are probably having a detrimental impact on something.

Let's not get "holier-than-thou" on the subject, okay?

I've tried vegetarianism and as a person with advanced HIV disease, I cannot maintain my body weight without meat (soy protein is simply not as bioavailable as meat protein). Sad, but true. I simply cannot eat enough and many vegetables trigger diarrhea for me which sorta makes it even harder.

[flvegan]

111. I didn't get holier than thou.

I NEVER stated that I had no impact. Lesser impact.

I honestly can't begin to understand your particular situation, and to be honest, what really pisses me off isn't that you eat meat. It pisses me off that we don't have what we need to properly treat HIV. It pisses me off, and I'm very sorry.

[unpossibles]

83. you can laugh all you want

just remember it when you are trying to crap and are constipated, or when you need surgery to clear your arteries, or when the ground water has been ruined by factory farms. Also when your taxes go to pay for the massive amount of water required to raise the animal.

Nothing wrong with eating meat. We all need to kill something to eat (plant or animal) and it is all about choice. And we are fairly omnivorous, although that argument also only goes so far - our number one killers are almost all diet related and we as a country eat way too much meat.

That said, the argument that meat is cheaper than vegetable is laughable. I put myself through college, and when I switched to meatless, my grocery bills were a lot cheaper. Plus restaurants' meatless dishes are almost always cheaper.

Eat what you want, but be prepared to pay for it. I smoke, but I do not fool myself that I need to smoke - I like to regardless of if it is bad for me.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unpossibles]

105. dude, chill

I have not tried to shove anything anywhere. Read my post again.

you have to eat. You can eat what you want. I never said otherwise. But to act like you do not have a choice is silly, or that I said anything to make a choice for you.

The only reason I jumped in here is because I am sick of the argument that all vegetarians are sickly and that it is too expensive.

the smoking comment was to show that I don't rationalize my own bad habits.

[donheld]

78. Just as bad as bible beaters

Some of you vegitarians are just as bad with your evangelism. Must you shove your tofu down my throat?

[flvegan]

84. I stated a fact, thanks.

I'm not shoving anything down anyone's throat. I didn't state that intending to change anyone's mind, really.

Like I said, we're all selfish somehow, someway. You must've missed that part.

[Heddi]

92. I love how anyone who doesn't proclaim their meat-free status, or

who DARES criticize PETA is automatically labled A SELFISH MEAT EATING BASTARD RACIST PIG ASSHOLE.

That's why in any post that deals with PETA/meat-eating/vegitarianism/animal rights, I feel that I *MUST* proactively defend myself and my eating habits by proclaiming:

We don't eat alot of meat. Don't eat any red meat. Eat maybe 1lb of chicken every 4 months or so. I mainly eat vegitarian foods. Please. Don't beat me up.

But even that isn't good enough.

You're right. It *IS* like Evangelical Christians. I tell you, Born-Again anything is just a recipe for annoyance.

Born-Again non-smokers...jesus. Shut.Up.Already.
Born-Again non-meat eaters
Born-Again non-drinkers
Born-Again whatever.

I swear. There are *SO* many things I do that I think would make the world a better place if more people did, but I'm not about to go cramming my beliefs down anyone's throat, or insulting them because they make different life choices than I am.

That somehow, eating meat totally undoes ALL THE OTHER POSITIVE THINGS a person may do, or is doing in their life.

Personally, I see them as being no different than the anti-abortionists, or the anti-evolutionists, or the BIBLE IN EVERY CLASSROOM folks----THEIR way is the RIGHT way and WE MUST ALL BE PUNISHED if we don't do things their way. That a simple choice of what we eat or don't eat (or what we do with our bodies, or how we pray, etc) makes us either a GOOD person or a BAD person, and if we're deemed as being a BAD person, no amount of GOOD we do in other areas of our lives will ever make us a NON BAD PERSON.

It must be terribly limiting to live in such a black-and-white, up-and-down world.

feh.

[flvegan]

100. Whoa...

I haven't read every post here, but I don't think that what you stated in your post is grounded in truth. I don't see where it was said that eating meat "undoes" anything, or makes you a racist pig asshole whatever you said.

I'm happy for whatever good things you do, and eating meat doesn't belittle any of that one bit.

[Heddi]

118. you must not have seen the deleted posts

made by a certain poster in this thread.

And other threads at DU re: PETA.

Even though I don't think it's necessary, I'd just like to state, for the record, that my husband and I are really almost meat-free. I just really really like chicken. We don't eat alot of it, though, and our diet is really all vegetarian except for the occasional peice of chicken we eat.

However, There is ALOT of demonization on both sides---from those who eat meat, and those who don't. And there are people on both sides who are able to "see eye to eye" and respect differences of choices and opinions.

IN this thread, a poster has equated killing a cow with killing an iraqi---that the fact that someone is willing to raise and slaughter their own livestock should make them willing to go to Iraq and kill a few ragheads. Equating killing a person with killing an animal. To me, I just don't see the similiarty between the two. So You didn't see the thread that called those who ate meat equivalent with racist murders, but it was there and thankfully deleted.

I've been called ALOT of things by Non-Meat-Eaters on DU. I loathe to get into these discussions because the hyperbole flys so fast on both sides. I don't demonize anyone for their choices. I would be very upset if I were forced to eat meat every meal, and I would be very upset if I were never again allowed to eat meat.

It's all about choice, and it's all about respecting another's choice to do what they want as long as it doesn't affect me.

The part about the eating-meat undoing anything else "progressive" I may do in my life was pointed out to me by a now-banned member of DU who was quite vocal in the PETA threads. This person was an avid vegan and told me that it didn't matter if I saved 10,000 babies from a burning building, that I was still a horrid person because I like a spot of fish and chips on my birthday.

I'm sorry that I added my own part to this hysterical conversation. I'm just as guilty as those I condem for the same behaviour.

[livinginphotographs]

122. It was my posts she's referring to.

Someone gleefully proclaimed that they would like to kill that cow themselves.

I compared someone who gets their rocks off killing an animal probably should go over to Iraq and kill him some Ay-rabs.

Sarcasm is lost on some people, it seems.

[Heddi]

129. yes. Because cows = humans, right?

and eating = being a racist

or something.

Please clarify how slaughtering and eating a cow is in ANY WAY comparable to being a murdering racist.

Please.

I really need you to clarify.

PS--today, when I was cleaning my shower, I accidentally washed a spider down the drain. I suppose that would make me the equivalent of Pol Pot, or something....

[livinginphotographs]

134. That is completely different than what I was saying in my post.

So I'll say it again: I guess it makes it okay for King George to blow up frogs with firecrackers. After all, they're just frogs, right?

Someone who eats meat is not a murdering racist. Someone who kills animals for fun is somebody who needs therapy. What the hell is so hard to understand about that?

[Heddi]

142. ***YOU ARE THE ONE who equated

slaughtering a cow with Going to Iraq to Shoot some Ay-Rabs.

YOU made that equation

YOU made the connection between cow slaughter and human slaughter.

And no, it's not right for GW to kill a frog with a firecracker. Nothing came from the death of the frog. But torturing a frog for no purpose is different than slaughtering a cow with the end purpose of that 'cow' becoming 'steak'.

Big difference between wanton killing and useful slaughter.

[livinginphotographs]

145. I equated someone wanting to go kill a cow

With someone wanting to kill a person.

Nowhere in his post did he say "because I want to make food out of it." The impression I got from his post (responding to the OP) was that he wanted to kill the cow. Maybe he should've phrased it better, as I should've phrased my reply better.

The impression I got from the poster I was replying to was the same impression I get when George laughs about killing frogs.

[unpossibles]

96. not quite accurate

I understand what you mean. Honestly, I do. And I agree somewhat.

I never make it a point to tell anyone what to (or not to) eat, smoke, drink, etc. I swear.

But you have to understand that most of us vegetarians get attacked by people every day - our parents, our friends, random people, etc. - all because we choose not to eat something.

People say it is too expensive or that it is unhealthy as if meat were some panacea wonder drug. The only mineral difficult to get on a meatless diet is Vitamin B12, and it has a couple of other sources (yeast is one).

The part I disagree with is that there is a difference between evangelicals and vegetarians. Converting to Christianity will not make any difference to our economic or environmental issues. I am not here to "save" you from meat eating however.

Again, do what you want as long as it does not infringe upon others.

[T Town Jake]

106. I had me a tasty T-bone for dinner last night...

...and I really, really, really don't care what the smug & self-righteous in the bizarre World of Vegan think about that.

DEAL WITH IT.

[flvegan]

109. I don't care if you care.

I simply stated a fact. How that affects you, I really, really, really don't care. Doesn't change anything.

The fact that what I said bothered you so much, well...

[T Town Jake]

121. LOL...it didn't "bother" me in the least...

...and I'm eating quality steak (done medium rare, with shrimp on the side) again tonight, just in honor of this thread...so, well... :9

[alwynsw]

135. You've inspired me, Jake.

I'm off to Cavanaugh's for a filet and lobster tail tomorrow night. For the veggies I'll have the asparagus and maybe a baked potato.

Got the tenderloin going for tonight.

[donheld]

116. Well do you care what us meat eating

jealous as all hell folks think? :evilgrin: I want me a nice Porter House.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[livinginphotographs]

151. You reminded me.

I have to get off DU for at least fifteen minutes tonight to take care of some selfish business. ;)

[ChairOne]

112. Simple fact: animals aren't people....

... except for homo sapiens of course....

And therefore pretending that they have the same moral status as people is silly. Regardless of whether or not you wanna eat them.

[Liberal Veteran]

115. Animals eat animals also.

It's the circle of life.

[DeaconBlues]

158. I thought as human beings we were trying to do something better with

our time on the planet than just be like other animals. Guess not.

[Liberal Veteran]

165. Whatever gave you that idea?

Indeed, current theory states that we likely wouldn't have evolved our larger brains and civilization without eating meat.

[unpossibles]

219. and that happened

roughly 1-2 million years ago. I would like to think we are still evolving. Maybe we should contine to evolve. Or not.

[livinginphotographs]

124. For once, please, someone back this up

With more than just "that's the way it is."

The only response I've ever gotten was from a Ned Flanders co-worker of mine that said, "Animals aren't equal to people because they don't have eternal souls."

Pardon me if I'm not exactly convinced by this line of logic. Care to enlighten me?

[ChairOne]

133. bah - Screw the souls crap...

They don't Talk. Game over.

"Talk" here is used with big-"T" - signifying that I mean the fullest-blooded sense of the word "Talk" - as opposed to looser notions that (thereby) apply to more critters. Among other things, the ability to *embed* sentences within larger sentences is one key element to full-blooded Talking.

[livinginphotographs]

140. Still not very convincing.

Babies don't talk. Should we eat them?

[ChairOne]

166. That's the most asinine attempt at a rebuttal I think I've ever seen...

... and I've see a lot.

Congratulations.

[smbolisnch]

182. Why was it acinine?

I worked with a mentally retarded woman for several years. Not only couln't she talk, but she also had a very low functioning level of intelligence. Show we throw her away like "bad" farm animals? She couldn't speak to me with her voice, but she could still talk to me. I assure you, we should not "screw the souls" of those who cannot speak. You can't answer that with a legitimate response, and that's sad.

[livinginphotographs]

141. ...

edit: double-post

[Ridiculous Bill]

161. animals

talking is the sign of a soul? for pete's sake.

how many of you rabid meat eaters are also pet owners? haven't you ever looked into you dog's eyes? haven't you ever communicated (without talking) to your dog or cat? don't you understand that they are filled with the same spirit as every cow and pig and chicken in every factory farm and the deer at the head of this thread? I'm not saying you have to sit around and eat soy curd, hell i'm not even saying you shouldn't eat meat but to pretend like an animal is not a unique and individual thing is a destructive manner of thought

[ChairOne]

167. You're th only one talking about souls.... /eom

[Madrone]

162. Cool.

Would you like your filet of "Stephen Hawking" served medium or medium rare, sir?

WTF?

[ChairOne]

168. There's lots of ways to talk - duh.

Sheesh.

Deaf people have ways, Spanish people have theirs, and so forth. The difference between message and medium is an obvious one. I'm concerned with the message - don't give a rat's ass about the medium.

Another silly rebuttal attempt... sheesh...

[Madrone]

170. Another silly rebuttal attempt...

in response to a silly comment. You may want to hone your argument beyond "they don't talk" ... ;)

FWIW - my dog is pretty damned good at "talking" - believe me, pretending I don't understand the requests to "go outside" does nothing to diminish the urgency and/or clarity of the message.

[ChairOne]

174. And you might wanna actually read my original statement.

The capital-"T" business....

[AlienGirl]

191. "The question is not 'Can they talk?' nor

'Can they reason?' but 'Can they suffer?'"--Jeremy Bentham

[ChairOne]

195. Neat-o. You can quote.

Obviously, I disagree with Bentham. <shrugs> Wuddrya gonna do?

[smbolisnch]

196. How can you disagree with that?

You are now asserting that animals can't feel??? :wtf:
I think you are the one with issues in that department. If don't embrace vegetarianism/veganism, that's fine. That is your choice. Why though, would you make such a false statement I wonder?

[ChairOne]

202. Sheesh. Does anyone here *read*? /eom

[smbolisnch]

204. Apparently not because you didn't answer my question

:eyes:

[AlienGirl]

197. Would you please explain *why* you disagree?

[ChairOne]

203. Sure.

After dinner...

[smbolisnch]

206. Even the biggest PETA bashers would tell you

That's just not funny, it's stupid. Nice try.

[AlienGirl]

209. Ah, the sound of forfeiture...

[smbolisnch]

211. Seems to be! nt

[Krinkov]

153. I dont think a holstein calf will ever grow up to cure cancer

..or develop fusion power.

Neither will most humans, but they all have the potential. Animals don't. Period.

[livinginphotographs]

157. Well, what about mentally handicapped people?

They probably don't have the potential. Should we eat them?

Why is the right to exist defined by what you might be capable of producing?

I don't choose to associate someone's value with what they can do for me. Why should I apply the same standard to other animals?

[DrWeird]

177. Now you're comparing the mentally handicapped to livestock?

Jesus, that's disgusting.

[livinginphotographs]

228. Um, no.

Did you read the subthread?

He said he decides what to eat based on whether it can talk. I then asked him if he thought it was okay to eat the mentally handicapped if they are unable to talk.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

[ChairOne]

169. My way, I don't have to predict the future....

... if a holstein DOES develop fusion power - I would take that as excellent reason to start treating the holstein as a person.

I don't think it'll happen either - but it doesn't matter. The issue is how you would react to the *counterfactual* situation, where we have calf-discovered fusion.

[misanthrope]

221. I don't think a holstein calf will ever develop a nuclear bomb...

...or any other device designed to kill millions with one flick of the switch.

[misanthrope]

222. I know a derelict,...

...a completely unrepentant alcoholic who does nothing for anyone but himself. He works a dismal job serving liquid depressants (alcohol) to other people, most of whom need something far more mentally healthy than another drink. He bums off everyone he knows, spends his free time drinking and chain smoking in a lounge chair four feet from the television. He refuses to do anything to make his world better. He is truly nothing more than a drain on society and not too far from living in the gutter. He is completely aware of such and doesn't care.

You going to tell me he has more worth than those dogs that tirelessly worked to find survivors in the rubble of the WTC simply because he was born a human being?

[DeaconBlues]

155. Its tradition,its the way its always been, etc.

Most evils in the world have been justified in these ways

[AlienGirl]

192. Do humans have *any* moral obligations toward animals, then?

Would you have a problem, say, with an artist using the prolonged killing of an animal as part of his art?

I bet you would, because reason tells you there must be a point where the amount of suffering inflicted on the animal outweighs the desire of the human.

In that case, we're only talking about where that point is.

It is my belief that my desire for a certain taste never outweighs an animal's right to live. However, since I believe a human's right to live generally outweighs an animal's right to live, if I were starving and my only food source was meat, I would then be justified in killing for food.

Tucker

[misanthrope]

220. WRONG. Simple Fact: People are animals...

...nothing more; nothing less. We're just naked apes with deft digits and magnanimous egos.

[T Town Jake]

126. Later, all...I'll check back in on this thread after I get back home...

...from dinner - at an excellent local steak house. Bon Appetit.

Edited to add: :9

[DeaconBlues]

156. Yawn

So, how many times are you going to repeat the same thing? Is this the way you always deal with losing an argument?

[Piperay]

187. Double yawn

:boring: :boring:

[slutticus]

130. PETA

http://mtd.com/tasty/

So how many deleted copycat threads did this spawn?

Man.....it's just sooooo tempting.....

[Piperay]

186. I'd like to see

someone start a site called People Eating Toxic Animals since P-E-T-A letters are so tempting to copycat, the 'tasty animals' thing is so old. :boring:

[slutticus]

188. No. We shouldn't disrespect organizations like PETA. It's not right

I mean, any organization who would liken the treatment of chickens to the treatment of holocaust victims deserves our respect. :eyes:

[superconnected]

152. I'm a vegetarian so it all makes me sick

My dad had a 3 way bypass(or was it 5?, can't remember) and angioplasty, and numerious other medical procedures, and also strokes, heart attacks, etc. from the meat. It finally killed him.

I went vegetarian on a whim where he was supposed to go veg too and it would save his life. He didn't. That last major stroke at 56 was the one that did him in.

2 of his friends are now dead from it. I know at least 5 people that have had bypasses now - all in their 50's.

What can you do. Nothing. Let them eat their meat and hope they beat the dice.

I've often thought we vegetarians and vegans should stop visiting them in the hospital. It's just when it's family, it's heartless not to.

[livinginphotographs]

154. Oh, but you absolutely have to have meat to survive!!!!

/sarcasm

[Liberal Veteran]

163. On the other hand.

I've tried vegetarianism and as a person with advanced HIV disease, I cannot maintain my body weight without meat (soy protein is simply not as bioavailable as meat protein). Sad, but true. I simply cannot eat enough and many vegetables trigger diarrhea for me which sorta makes it even harder.

Also groups like PETA are opposed to the use of animal testing in MEDICAL treatments.

Beside the fact that almost every insulin dependant person would have died up until recently if we did this, I just cannot abide by an organization that is so extremist they would actually set back medical research that may some day lead to a cure for what ails me.

I say if you are vegetarian, more power to you.
If you are for more humane or enviromentally friendly ranching, great.

But trying to "guilt" people into vegetarianism just sorta bothers me.

[superconnected]

164. I'm not trying to guilt people, I'm telling the truth

I don't assume I could guilt someone into giving up meat.

You clearly need it. There's nothing wrong with that.

Sometimes it gets me that people do not consider the consequences of their actions in choosing to be die hard steak eaters - the ones who it is killing, but that's their choice.

My choice is to simply point it out now and then. I lost my dad in 2000. His doctor told him if he stopped eating meat he would live another decade. Of course his doctor was telling him that 10 years before he died when he started having the heart attacks and the strokes.

What can I do.. bring it up now and then and have steak eaters get "mad" at me for it. Tough. Deal.

I hope you do everything can to stay healthy, including eating meat. :)

[drbtg1]

247. Insulin dependant people such as...Mary Beth Sweetland?!?

...who uses insulin developed from animals and is PETA's vice president. Hypocrite, thy name is Sweetland.

Source: The PETA episode of "Penn & Teller's Bullshit", an interesting little half hour talking about PETA's support of terrorists (shown from tax returns) and how they kill dogs at PETA's headquarters (no joke, unfortunately they didn't show their source for that, just an interesting quote from Ms. Newkirk).

[toddaa]

160. Vegan fanatics v. Meat fanatics

These threads are so fucking stupid. I'm a vegetarian because meat tastes like shit, but the vegan wackos would have me believe that an occasional omelet and a hunk of Stilton are tantamount to slavery. On the other side are the meat eating colon cancers trying to convince me that I'm going to waste away and die if I don't eat some rotting flesh on occasion.

WHAT YOU ALL NEED ARE ENEMAS. ;)

[pinto]

194. couldn't you just say PETA video here?

Revolution doesn't require innuendo.

[killbotfactory]

205. all animals die and their meat is delicious

their byproducts are quite usefull as well.

I just try and make sure I don't buy from crappy farms where they torture the animals before slaughter. It's not too much to ask, I don't think.

[MrSlayer]

210. Mmmmmm, makes me hungry.

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Maddox Rules.

[flvegan]

216. It's good that you have shit in common with Ted Nugent. No...wait...

it's not. Sorry.

[killbotfactory]

218. Ted Nugent has something in common with nearly the entire human race

We eat animals. They taste good. If they tasted like poo and their flesh killed us, we wouldn't.

[MS68]

217. Mad Cow disease anyone?

[alittlelark]

226. I am a moral vegetarian

but the 3 times I went vegetarian I got listless and confused (yes, I supplemented). I have eaten none other than Neiman Farms and Dittmers meat for quite awhile.

Slaughter can be done humanely.... That vid was just sooo wrong.

[donheld]

246. I'll leave you alone to eat your tofu and you leave me alone to eat meat