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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:24 PM
Original message
(OMG! The PNAC/DLC Connection!)No More Moore: DLC Joins the Witch-Hunt
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 06:58 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
http://nypress.com/17/48/news&columns/taibbi.cfm

"We've got to repudiate, you know, the most strident and insulting anti-American voices out there sometimes on our party's left... We can't have our party identified by Michael Moore and Hollywood as our cultural values."
Al From, CEO, Democratic Leadership Council

"You know, let's let Hollywood and the Cannes Film Festival fawn all over Michael Moore. We ought to make it pretty clear that he sure doesn't speak for us when it comes to standing up for our country."
Will Marshall, President of the Progressive Policy Institute, the think-tank of the DLC

>snip<

In addition to his duties as the president of the PPI, Marshall kept himself busy in the last few years. Among other things, he served on the board of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, an organization co-chaired by Joe Lieberman and John McCain whose aim was to build bipartisan support for the invasion of Iraq.

Marshall also signed, at the outset of the war, a letter issued by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) expressing support for the invasion. Marshall signed a similar letter sent to President Bush put out by the conservative Social Democrats/USA group on Feb. 25, 2003, just before the invasion. The SD/USA letter urged Bush to commit to "maintaining substantial U.S. military forces in Iraq for as long as may be required to ensure a stable, representative regime is in place and functioning."

One of just a handful of Marshall's co-signatories on that letter was Bruce Jackson, who also happens to be the head of the PNAC (whose letter Marshall also signed) and the founder of the aforementioned Committee for the Liberation of Iraq. Jackson is not only a neo-con of high rank and one of the chief pom-pom wavers for the war effort. He was also a vice president in the weapons division of Lockheed-Martin between 1993 and 2002meaning that he was one of the implied targets of Bowling for Columbine, which came out in Jackson's last year with the company.

Clearly, Marshall was thinking about the good of the Democratic Party, and not the integrity of his grimy little network of missile-humping cronies, when he and Al From made the curiousand curiously conspicuousdecision to denounce Moore, Hollywood and France at the DLC meeting in early November.

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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Michael Moore for DNC chairman
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whalerider55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Moore for DLC CHair
heh heh heh

whalerider55
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. and Deputy DLC, "your boy and ours!" Dennis Kucinich!
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. .
.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. I have to say that it doesn't seem reasonable to let the voice of the
Democratic party be someone who is not representative of the party as a whole. I voted Kerry and pretty much am disgusted by Republicans but "9/11" was far from factual. I definitely don't want him speaking for me.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. It was largely factual...
And very effective. Compared to a repuke telling you what the weather might be, it was satori grade.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Well, I read Richard Clarke's book and he ordered the removal
of the Bin Laden family...Moore's movie insinuates that the familial connections between the Saudis and the Bushs was the main reason. Clarke says otherwise.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Well, then it's a matter of degrees.
The difference between Bad Shit and Really Bad Shit.

There is so much in play regarding 911 that it just boggles the mind. It might all come out as well, for we now have The Internet. Through that, collaberations that have never existed before, in the history of man, are taking place and developing information in ways that have never before been contemplated.

There is one investigator out there, involved with many others, who is doing some very interesting stuff. If only 25% of what he has developed pans out, there will be people getting drawn and quartered over 911.

Also, remember: Richard Clarke is not the last word. Just another perspective. Wholly unique.
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
80. Who?
There is one investigator out there, involved with many others, who is doing some very interesting stuff. If only 25% of what he has developed pans out, there will be people getting drawn and quartered over 911.

Can you provide me with a link? I'm very interested in this topic.
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. on this you base
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 06:45 PM by koopie57
that all of F911 was far from factual?

I admire Michael Moore and appreciate his courage to stick his neck out for us. I don't always agree with him, but I'll always defend him. He is a good man and I'm tired of people stabbing others in the back cuz they didn't do it exactly the way they felt it should be done. Get out there and do it yourself if you think you know so much better.

on edit: this was in response to post #4.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Who ordered Clark to do that?
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 06:49 PM by Sterling
Do you think he made the decision on his own? If you really read his book you would know the that. He takes orders from Bush, and Cheney. He does not make policy or executive decisions.

Moore's point is only varified by Clarks statement.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
50. Thank you......
I'm glad someone has enough brains to understand that.
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wolfgirl Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. He didn't "order" the Royal Family removal, he
okayed the flights after being told it was cleared by the FBI - run by Ashcroft & Bush & Cheney...

Michael Moore speaks his mind, doesn't back down and loves this country. Does he speak for me? On some issues yes, but not all. Neither does Kerry or Edwards or Dean.....but on the whole, I agree with Moore - this country has been hijacked and WE must stand up and stop fighting amongst ourselves about petty s**t! Everytime some discussion like this comes up, I see us being distracted and mislead and losing focus on what is going on. Michael Moore didn't lose the election for the Democratic party. We did it all by ourselves (with the help of BBV & MSM & Bush).


(off my soapbox - didn't mean to offend anyone, but I'm so tired of us eating our own everytime the GOP/Neocon/Fascists come out with such s**t!)
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
35. Clarke covered up Operation Vigilant Warrior and shoot down of TWA800.
Clarke is still a company man and isn't telling all the dirty secrets.

He also breezed over Operation Vigilant Warrior with one sentence in his book without explaining that the CIA and NORAD were doing live exercises the morning of 9/11 'simulating' multiple hijacked airlines crashing into buildings! This was the confusion that helped the tragedy happen and tells you some horrible things about MIHOP and the cover story.

Even the AP quietly carried the story of this 'coincidence' on 8/22/02 and no one else except Mike Ruppert has trumpeted this amazing New Pearl Harbor event which gave us the 'war on terror' to cover for an oil war and police state.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/cia-simulation.htm

http://www.oilempire.us/wargames.html

http://prorev.com/twa800.htm
US Navy exercises off NYC on 7/17/96 resulted in the accidental shoot down of a commercial jet because the military kept 'painting' jets with radar until the inevitable happened. Clinton covered it up because he had a re-election coming up, thought it might be a new problem called 'al-Queda', and was opening the Olympics in Atlanta in a few days.

Michael Moore has released more factual info into the public discourse than anyone else in America.

How many didn't know that the Saudi royal family is practically part of the Bush royal family-business partners and personal friends-for decades? Thank Michael Moore.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
53. WOW! I love you log in name....
sorry, I didn't think of it!
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
36. Go back and read Clarke's book again.
Clarke states he received a phone call requesting him to release the Saudis. He refuses to admit who phoned him with orders (He maintains he forgot who called him.....yeah).

He said that he had no objection at that time and authorized the flight.

"Authorizing the flight" and "ordering the removal" are VERY different things.


You Said:
"Moore's movie insinuates that the familial connections between the Saudis and the Bushs was the main reason."

I say:
"And this has been disproven how?"



You've been watching too much FauxNews.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Moore is one of the very few to call the Bushies on their shit.
Badmouthing him pisses me off, for one. And I'm hardly a member of the fringe.

The DLC has done NOTHING for the democratic party.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Was unaware that the DLC had nothing to do with the Democrats. EOM
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. You have some serious reading comprehension issues...
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 06:52 PM by Sterling
Whitch would explain why if you did indeed read Clark's book the fact he was ordered to get the OBL SA folk out by the administration was completely lost on you and thus you go about repeating illogical RW talking points.

The poster did not say that the DLC had nothing to do with the party he said they had done nothing for the party. I think they have done plenty to the party but little in the way of helping.
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. AMEN!!! n/t
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. The Dems BIG Mistake!
Silencing the anti-War Movement! That is why they lost in my view. Also, the silence on War Crimes committed by the present Neo Fascist Regime of Amerika. As long as the Dem party won't stand up for it's principle's it will lose in Natl. Elections. Moving to the right to appease the swing voters or the Repub. Lites is not the correct path.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I agree completely. Dean should have been the candidate...the
debates would have been much different.
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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. give us chapter and verse
far from factual?

let's hear it -- dispute any one of his top 100 points.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
42. "9/11" was far from factual
Still waiting for you to back up this right-wing talking point.

or feel free to retract.

RL
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. From's offensive remark goes beyond that point
Regardless of how accurate you feel MM's work is (I appreciate it greatly), to have a DEM call someone who supported the DEM candidate "anti-American" is a real tip off.

This clown KNOWS that's not true but he's too lazy to actually state what he disagrees with, instead choosing a ready-made RW media tag and in so doing, aligns himself, as a supposedly influencial dem, with a position that I want nothing to do with.

He reminds me of a high schooler who chose friends based on the car they drove.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
76. Far from factual? What the hell did he say that wasn't true? nt
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flying_blind Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Amusing that this was so swiftly moved.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 06:31 PM by flying_blind
I think it is time to Seriously pursue approval voting and a third way.

The democratic leadership are the same caliber of corporate shills as the repubs.

Google approval voting if you do not know about it.

And be loud angry REAL liberals.

Please.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Yeah. This was shuffled here in 45 seconds. WTF?
Does the DLC have a hand in this website's focus?

My trust just went out the window at what I THOUGHT was a website that allowed criticism of the DLC.
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flying_blind Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. This website is WAY less tolerant than you might imagine
which is why I had to change IPs about 4 times till I learned how to play by the rules...

free speech is a myth in this corporatocracy

left right is subterfuge

the us them is really the ruling class and the rest of us

Foreclsures are up to record breaking heights but luxury home sales are kickin ass - what more does one really need to know? This is but one small lens on a blindingly obvious situation.

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/
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flying_blind Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. btw YOU win the DU 'handle' award in my opinon
John O'Neill

Bet he could shed some light on the MIHOP scene


So do you know - did he take over security just after Marvin Bush or was there an intemediary?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bush+wtc+security&...
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
46. His personal/professional demise tells the whole story. Wm. Pitt showed us
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 08:18 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
in an essay called 'Hell to Pay' shortly after 9/11.
I decided that a thumbnail of this tragedy should be worn like a ribbon at this website.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/01/11_...

(The involvement of Marvin Bush with WTC security is like finding flies on shit. Everywhere there is stink, there is a Bush.)

Operation Vigilant Warrior is the other story that sews it all up.
http://www.oilempire.us/wargames.html
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/cia-simulation.htm


http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/DA25Ag01.html
US needs Saudi oil (plus all it can get anywhere),
Usama hates the US,
Saudis must finance terrorism to appease Usama,
FBI must not interfere,
PNAC neo-cons want Pearl Harbor to steal oil with a police-state,
NORAD must not interfere,
Media must not interfere,
Dems must not interfere,
9/11 Omission Panel must not interfere,
Voters must not interfere,
Kerry must not interfere,
DLC must not interfere.

And John Oneill was brushed aside because he'd interfere.
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP206A.html
http://www.old.smh.com.au/news/0111/07/world/world100.h...
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flying_blind Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. need saved page....new link..
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 09:25 PM by flying_blind
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Please. Stop It
This article is written as an editorial column. Furthermore, there is no date / time stamp on the article. These are clear violations of LBN posting rules.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Published on Friday, December 3, 2004 by the New York Press.
And picked up from CommonDreams.org today on the same date.

You are right on both counts and you see below I've withdrawn my heated finger pointing at you.

oops. Sorry. BACK TO THE STORY.....
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
16. This may be one of the more important threads to keep alive. I admit
to ignorance on the workings of the DLC.

It absolutely does not represent me.

The comments about Michael Moore are a little reactionary - mostly because he should keep doing what he does best - make documentaries, work like crazy, make great jokes, communicate.

But, is is clear as the air used to be - DNC NO. DLC NO.

Take back our country and the Party.

No Frum, No Schrum, No McAullife, No Brazile NO No No
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. We are learning that the Dems aren't who they say they are
just as the Repubs aren't who they say they are.

Remember the UMaryland PIPA study that showed that Bush* supporters thought he supported things they wanted? And he doesn't?

That's what this article proves about the DLC. They are not what they say they are.

We have been lied to and played by 'our own' because they are getting rich on murder, too.

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Bingo!
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
63. Can we say that here?
I hope so, cuz it's true. I've been here for three years. My liberal cred is intact. Many people here know me personally. That being said, I am no longer here to be cowed into supporting things I know are wrong.

I hope the DU admins and mods will not try to influence this important discussion on a very serious topic. I want to keep being a Democrat but the party must change, maybe even divide into the DLC and The Democratic Party.
We have reached the end of the road for the strategy that has been being used. We need new leadership and I don't just mean Dean taking over the DNC. We need people even less compromised than Dean. People like us who don't have a million dollars and might not even know a millionaire.

Anyway stand your ground TRUE democrats and purge the party of the corporate piggies. You know who you are. You know who they are. This is more urgent than planing Hillary in 08 thats for MF sure.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
21. The DLC is no friend to our cause.
I just finished reading this article and it only reinforces my belief that our party is in serious trouble.

Looking Back, Looking Forward
People Must Have More to Live for Than to Die For

IN 1940 FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT confronted an entirely divided country, divided sectionally and politically much as it is today, and declared: "We will have a liberal democracy, or we will return to the Dark Ages."

Liberals to Arms! We need to regroup, reconsider, reorganize. For thirty years I have been privileged to study America's great liberals, particularly Dwight Eisenhower and Eleanor Roosevelt. They have much to tell us about where we might go from here, and how once again to get there.

To see how far along a dastardly path we have crawled, it is important to remember that Eisenhower called himself "a militant liberal." On November 16, 1953, he wrote to John Foster Dulles that his Administration was "committed to...policies that will bring the greatest good to the greatest number. This means that there must be lifted from the minds of men the fears of disaster, poverty, and old age." He campaigned for national healthcare and appointed former Women's Army Corps commander Oveta Culp Hobby to head his new Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. Together with Eleanor Roosevelt and her friend Esther Lape, Hobby and Eisenhower fought for a single-payer health system to cover all Americans. Eisenhower increased the minimum wage, extended the excess-profits tax, expanded the public-housing program and warned the nation of the dangers of the military-industrial complex, which he originally called the Congressional-industrial-military complex.

Eisenhower wrote his brother Edgar on May 2, 1956: "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again.... There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H.L. Hunt...a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

more

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1203-13.htm


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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:51 PM
Original message
HA!
there was a time when even Republicans called themselves liberals. How far we have fallen.
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. HA!
there was a time when even Republicans called themselves liberals. How far we have fallen.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. MIC and the Multi-Corps
These are the enemies along with the Neo Fascist politicians that are in the pay of them. The Dem Party is no longer viable for the Middle Class, Working Poor and the Poor of Amerika because it has appeased the Ruling Class of Amerika. To believe that Amerika is a Democracy is akin to believing in the existence of Santa at the NP. Amerika is an Oligarchy and soon will be a Facsist Police State controlled by Amerika's Corporate Rulers backed by the Neo Facsists controlling every aspect of Govt.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. You express my fears!
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
24. This Was Moved Out of LBN Because
It's not breaking news. It's first-person editorial. Save your paranoia for the DLC, not the LBN mods.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Thanks for the clarification which would be good to include in the move.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 06:59 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
Perhaps that would take up too much time as a moderator but you can see where this suspicion came from, can't you?

I'll edit out my suspicion of moderators where possible.

Peace.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Yeah, Sort of
When I was a mod, the mechanism that allowed you to 'kick' a thread over to a different forum didn't leave a space for a reason/explanation. It automatically locks the thread.
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flying_blind Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. there's always more to the story
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 07:26 PM by flying_blind
I always wonder who the moderator folks are, and how they have time YET remain so informed

This is hands down the best/busiest/most informative/most timely=actively managesd (like it or not) forum I have ever come across.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
55. Well
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 09:17 PM by Crisco
I can't speak for all, but my experience was the LBN mods were/are news junkies.

In that forum, you receive up to 50 alerts a day and spend a *lot* of time tracking down dupes & timestamps in case of multiple alerts. Anyone who can do it for more than 1 term without ripping out their hair has my admiration.

If I had my way, people would have to take a cognitive skills test before they'd be allowed to start threads in that forum :D
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flying_blind Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. as anticipated. Thanx for insites.... n/t
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not fooled Donating Member (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
37. Disgusting
History will show that Moore was right and those who support the war (or are mealy-mouthed about opposing it) wrong. Only a matter of time before the US gets out, leaving behind immense devastation, wasted billions of $$$, untold human suffering, and a new generation of US-hating terrorists.

Moore is just ahead of the curve in seeing all this clearly now. History will judge harshly those who support (overtly or tacitly by their silence) the PNAC crackpot schemes and their disastrous outcome.

So, once again the DLC makes the wrong decision. And, the irony is, that even by casting aside Moore, they will still never get the mouth breathers who support * to switch. DLC can never equal rove et al. in terms of vile conduct and lying, so the attempt to be * lite is doomed to failure from the outset. Great, just great :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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msgadget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
38. So, it's official,
they're going to distance themselves from anyone objectionable to the other side's base and try the centrist/moderate thing that did so well last time. Next they'll join the pro-life dems. Evidently these people are too political to help us.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Actually, shows the DLC wants the same oil war the Torture Pretzeldent
is taking the heat for.

They also want to occupy the M.E. Oil Spigot because they are making money off it, too. This is the consequence of having BOTH parties corporate-owned.

So they are doing their part to play the 'good cop' as Caligula fills the body bags.

As they used to say in a Saturday Night Live skit, "Acting!"
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. I will not vote if they run another DLCer.
Sorry, I will not be moved.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
40. Fuck the DLC and there little dogs too.
This is where the Democratic Party has it wrong. Dems will never win by being more republican than the Republicans. We need to take back the Party from these pretenders. No wonder Kerry isn't really in favor of a recount, as I think these are his sentiments too. The Democratic Party has lost it's soul and it's vision. We need to develop a true progressive vision of what this country and world can be. Then we need to shape policies to make it happen. We need a Democratic platform of peace and justice for all. If it can't be done with the current leadership we'll have to leave them behind and start developing a new grassroots party. It will take longer, but the DLC has us in a quagmire.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Grassroots work in progress!
Give these guys a look.

http://www.pdamerica.org /

We have a local chapter up and running in Minneapolis. There are others, and a summit of Progressive Democrats scheduled in DC foor Jan21st (the day after the bush* coronation.) The scheduling is not an accident.




I went to a general store. They wouldn't let me buy anything specifically. -- Steven Wright
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Thanks
I bookmarked the link and will look into it tomorrow when I have a bit more time.

I'm planning to be in DC for the coronation. with bells on.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I'm planning too.
Hoping to moon the chimp, and then catch the Progressives summit over the weekend.





It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it. -- Steven Wright
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #47
68. This is where I'm throwing my support
the real democratic wing of the Democratic Party.

The only thing I every really disagreed with Moore on was his endorsement of Clark. Otherwise, he has been out there doing what we have been asking the Dems in congress to do...grow some damn balls and stand on progressive principle. They current leadership deserves to lose.
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proudbluestater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
45. What the hell? Michael's the only one with cojones!
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 08:11 PM by proudbluestater
The DLC does not represent us. It takes corporate donations to stay afloat.

And that think tank? Why bother with a "Democratic" think tank whose president signs on with the neocons?

I've never read so much horseshit in my life in an article by those who are supposedly on "our side." With friends like that, who needs enemies?

So "we" will distances ourselves from Michael Moore and the Hollywood actors? Pray tell, how do these idiots plan on raising money in the future?

Michael Moore and the actors have never been 1/10 as outrageous as Rush, Coulter, Fox News, et. al, and we should tell them to shove off? Great, then there will be nobody speaking up against the Bush crime family.

Next election, if I decide to vote for a Democrat, the money goes directly to him/her, never again to the national party. Screw that.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Now we are all black. They even lynch white people...
I just heard on Pacifica Radio a Malcolm X speech from 1964 where he says the same thing about getting smart to the scam that we are just catching on to.

The brother was definitely on to the scam 40 years before we were.

"We need to get into self-help mode because our white liberal friends are not helping us, our churches are not helping us. Singing 'We Shall Overcome' is not helping us.

What we need is less singing and more swinging!"

Of course, he was advocating militancy over meekness.

I'm merely advocating realizing who are friends and enemies really are and changing our expectations and behaviour.



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ChicanoPwr Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
67. Don't forget Howard Dean
If wasn't for him, the DNC leadership would still be kissing the BushCo ass. And if wasn't for the press making look like a looney with the Dean scream. It would have been Dean who would be President now.
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
52. kerry would have won if he would have hired Moore to make TV ads for him

Moore has that bullying, demonize and make fun of the opposition approach that has worked so well for the Republicans. The guy has got killer instincts. That's why the republicans hate him.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Problem is Kerry didn't want to expose the oil war he tried to inherit.
Because he is fronting the DLC who ALSO want to occupy the oil spigot.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Read "Into the Buzzsaw", the chapter on oil...
The DLC/Neocon split is more about method that the goal. David Rockefeller was against the likes of Rumsfeld because he felt they would go about it wrong. The aim of both sides has been all about the power and the control of oil is intrinsic to that end. Alternative fuels may work for you car and keeping the tv on, but they will never fuel the war machine. For thet we need oil.

My take on Kerry: Going backwards less quickly." Nonetheless it would have been a big help. The hill just got longer and steeper.
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flying_blind Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
59. Back off bin Ladens
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
60. this is precisely why I am leaving the Democratic Party
and there are many others like me.

With leaders like this, who needs Repubs?

These idiots are letting the right-wing LABELLING of Michael Moore as a fringe-lefty color their thinking and their decision-making.

Which makes them no better than the Right Wing.

Fuck all these assholes.

I'm joining a new party. Don't know what yet, but it ain't gonna be the Democ-ROT-ic party.

Not until we can actually choose our leaders. Who are these fuckwads, anyway?
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Either we start a new one or throw the bastards out
I became a dem this year to try to effect change from within. It's apparent the power brokers were happy to take my money but never gave a shit about progressive policies. Fuck em. Time to send em packing or sneak out the back door whence we came. Dean was right...empower individuals. As soon as they pushed him out the empowerment was gone and we were expected to fall in line and suck up to the Corporate money brokers in sheeps clothes. Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, er ah err, won't get fooled again.
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #61
74. you got it. Howard Dean needs to start a new party
"Build it and they will come".

They'll come in droves.

People are sick and tired of being sick and tired.
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billie_ Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. HAHA....i hear ya....i am sick of this shite too..... n/t
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
62. well that does it
Time to start a new party. If the Dems continue to hew to the DLC -- Democratic LOSING/LOSERS Council -- they will see a mass exodus of support. I have had it. I didn't think it could get any worse than how I felt when they rolled over early on in 2001, even before 9/11, but this is the final straw.

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billie_ Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. we need to take our power & our country back...n/t
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
66. These fucking treasonous pieces of shit should be in prison or dead
Not running the Democratic party :grr:
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
69. FUCK THE DLC!
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #69
77. I second that.
Let's stop VOTING for them.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
70. The DLC is out to wage war
on the more liberal elements of the party. They want to short circuit the PDA effort. The battle for the soul of the party has been enjoined. We'll see if the party survives or splits.
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
71. PNAC signing/Michale Moore bashing...... Red Alert
I also read on DU that the DLC favors the Zell Millers and Joe Liebermans of our party. This group sounds more repuke then anything.

What can we do to cast these frauds out of the party?
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
72. I've said right along Lieberman is a troll.
Thanks for posting.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
73. Now read this counterpunch.org article from Nov 2002 that warned us!
(This is a very good article from two years ago that tells exactly what happened again this year. Imagine that.-JOM)

http://www.counterpunch.org/sperry1126.html
Spank the Donkey: Why We Should Give Up on the Democrats: a polemical essay

"Next to Clinton, the Nixon administration was one long orgy of fuzzy-headed liberalism."-Steve Perry at counterpunch.org

>snip<

Our values and aspirations as a society are now routinely subjected to the flummery of cost-benefit analyses in which it's understood that the only thing that really matters is cost. Democrats, under cover of "realism," are every bit as complicit in this shift as Republicans.And where does it leave us? More than ever, the business of America is business (and its stepchild, war) and the business of Democrats is betrayal.

>Why give up on the Democrats now?<

Here's the first thing you need to understand: Election Day may have been a shock and a disappointment to the national Democratic party, but it was not a failure. For all the hits they took, the Democrats held the line where it mattered. They did not let in any genuine political dialogue about the central issues of war abroad or of the economy and managerial lawlessness at home. In this they served their masters very well, and that's really all any political party tries to do in the end.

And how does the rank and file react? Why don't the Democrats... If only the Democrats... If the Democrats were smart... Hold on right there. Let's dispense with the ridiculous, shopworn notion that the Democrats don't get it, that they are too dim or too timid to do the things that are evident to the rest of us: tack left, talk populist, stand up to Bush, push hot-button issues like corporate malfeasance, health care, and campaign finance reform.They see these things as clearly as the rest of us, and they choose not to do any of them. Why? Money is the simple, vulgar answer, and the correct one.

>snip<

more....
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. kick. n/t
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. Kicking for the weekend. Know who your friends AREN'T. n/t
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
79. More
Maybe now some of the DLC apologists will GIVE UP on the DLC. BTW, the CLI (Committee for the LIberation of Iraq) was a NeoCon construct from the get-go and no self-respecting Dem should have EVER been associated with it -- but a whole lot were.


The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves. -- Lenin

LINKS - What every DUer and every Dem needs to know about the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du...

Let's be REALLY honest about the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du...


Outing the "New Democrats" -- Pukes in Progressive Clothing.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du...

Everyone who is a fan of the DLC, needs to read this post,
(Devils Advocate NZ's post is included)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du...

Kerry, the New Democrats, and American Military Hegemony
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

New Dems formed to get corporate donors, be free from party base ideology
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Ask the questions NOW of the DLC and Clinton. Corporate funding.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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