Support the troops? I'll save my support for this one.

[JohnyCanuck]

(And any others like him)

From a WSWS story about a former US Marine Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey, now an oponent of the US War in Iraq:

The brutality of the US military’s retaliation against the growing resistance of the Iraqi people transformed his view of the occupation and changed him for life. Massey, horrified and unable to reconcile himself to what was taking place, began to speak out to his superiors. He was eventually medi-vaced out of Iraq and diagnosed with depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. Labeled as a conscientious objector by his commanders, Massey sought legal counsel and won his honorable discharge in December 2003.

<snip>

In the midst of the widespread killing of civilians, Massey was struck by the callousness of the military command and the lack of humanitarian assistance they were offering the Iraqi people. This further deepened his doubts about the true purpose of the war.

“We actually left all of the humanitarian MRE’s in Kuwait,” he recalled. “We were supposed to give these out for relief, and we left them in Kuwait. They were just for show when the film crews came into the camps. We also had this big show with the medical supplies that we were prepping for Iraqi casualties. We were supposed to get in there and take care of them.

“But I’ll give you an example of what we actually did. After we shot up this car with civilians, I called in the corpsmen to bring in stretchers. They came in and put two men on stretchers. Five minutes later, they brought them back and dumped their bodies on the side of the road. They were still alive. They were riddled with bullets—one guy was just rolling in agony on the side of the road.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/vet-n11.shtml

[Hawkeye Pierce]

1. Nice to see my fellow soldiers speaking out.

I got back from Iraq a few months ago and I have been lurking here at DU and I really appreciate what you guys are doing to bring the truth out about the Bush misadministration. As for idiot boy winning he had to of cheated. I know for a fact that most of the men and women in Iraq do not support him one bit. Do not let the right wing lie to you, by claiming how much the troops love bush. It simply is not true.

[lastliberalintexas]

3. Welcome, John

I'm glad to know you're home, and hopefully you won't be forced to go back.

[IrateCitizen]

4. Hey John, do you know about Iraq Vets Against the War?

http://www.ivaw.net

What about Operation Truth?

http://www.optruth.org

Both are terrific organizations, and I'm certain could use your help (and experiences over there).

FWIW, I'm a member of IVAW (even though I didn't go over there myself).

Thanks for your service, and stay strong, brother!

[Hawkeye Pierce]

5. You bet I do and I know personally some of the folks behind it.

I won't mention any names at this time since I am still not discharged officially yet and don't want to end up getting myself in trouble.

[IrateCitizen]

7. Get your post count up so I can send you a personal message

[Hawkeye Pierce]

10. Are you suggesting I post whore?

:)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

8. Welcome to DU!

I know of many men and women who have been in Iraq that don't support Bush either. I think there is too much misinformation as to the feelings of our troops over there.

Thank you for speaking out it means a lot in these times.

[uppityperson]

9. welcome John

Glad to have you here too, from another DU member recently out of lurkdom. It's good to know that we're not alone, even if what we can do is overwhelmed by what we can't. Hope you get to stay home and not be sent back to Iraq.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

25. Welcome to DU and more importantly welcome home

Thanks very much for your service to our country, in war and in working to make sure free speech and our constitution is preserved.

[IrateCitizen]

2. Go to http://www.ivaw.net or http://www.optruth.org

Jimmy Massey is currently trying to find a publisher for his book based on what he saw and did in Iraq. He and his wife have gone through their savings, so anything you could send them would certainly be appreciated.

Anyone interested in helping him out, send me a PM and I'll send you the info.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

6. Don't quote me or anything but,

you fine folks just may be reading his book very soon. :)

[HamdenRice]

19. deleted

[radwriter0555]

11. I Agree one MILLION percent.

I have no compassion or support for the troops who kill for a paycheck. Give me a man who stands for what's right, not for doing what he's told for a paycheck.

[IrateCitizen]

12. Very few troops "kill for a paycheck"

Most of them simply rely on their buddies, and their buddies rely on them, so that they all make it back home in one piece.

[radwriter0555]

23. They're in iraq to kill the iraqis and conquer the country.

they're being paid to do it.

Any extrapolation of the events currently going on is just making excuses. Let's break it down and keep it real.

[IrateCitizen]

24. I am keeping it real. I've been in the military, so I understand.

That doesn't mean what our LEADERS have misled them to do is somehow excusable. Nor does it excuse the excesses that some troops engage in during battle, nor those who actually enjoy it.

But the vast majority that are there just want to make it home in one piece, and see that the same happens to their buddies. That's the reality. Talk to any of the veterans here on DU, and they'll tell you pretty much the same thing.

[WindRavenX]

13. I think

Many of the soldiers are now realizing that this war in unjust, immoral, and based on lies. The ones that are verbal and take pleasure in killing are in the minority, IMHO.

[Kid_A]

14. Thank you for the article.

snip

"A lot of the kids joining the military are from the ‘barrios’ and ‘hoods,’ or the poor parts of the Appalachian Mountains, where we’re sitting right here. Appalachia has some of the poorest counties in the country—so they’re sweeping them up."

snip

I can personally relate to that. Every summer I volunteer with a group called Appalachia Service Project (ASP) that does home repair in extremely impoverished areas of Appalachia. ASP is a Christian organization, but I tune that aspect of it out. I've volunteered with them every year since 1998, and it never ceases to amaze me that there are Americans living in such extreme poverty. This past year especially affected me. Our government can spend billions and billions of dollars on bombing the living fuck out of poor countries in the name of "improving their lives", yet we can't take any of that money to improve the lives of people living in our own country. Some of the neighborhoods I've worked in are waaaaaay back in the mountains, and some of them don't look all that different from pictures we've seen coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan. And the fact that young men and women from these communities are being sent to Iraq to fight other poor people is more cruel and sad that anything I could imagine.

[MsUSA]

18. This just breaks my heart, the poor fighting the poor for our gain.

Our gain to buy the biggest gas guzzling SUV's available, the gain of the wealthiest people in this country to obtain just obnoxious amounts of money off this unjust war, and the gain of the politicians to get reelected all for the war on terrr. My heart just aches.

[HamdenRice]

15. Sadly, I can't "support the troops" anymore

Back when F9/11 came out, I basically agreed with the position taken in the film and by most progressives -- support the troops even if you are against the war.

As the utter catastrophe of Iraq evolves, I feel I cannot support the troops because to do so is to support criminal behavior. The war itself is illegal, and even worse, that illegality is being compounded by thousands of illegal violent acts against the Iraqis. The operating orders by which US troops shoot first and ask questions later, and elevate force protection above protecting the civilian population is illegal and immoral and implicates every GI in illegal activity.

I believe that the only ethical, moral and legal position any soldier, sailor, marine or airman in Iraq today can take is to refuse to take orders, even if it means prosecution. It is better to be wrongly prosecuted and even jailed for NOT committing a crime, that it is to commit a vicious, amoral, illegal crime, even if you probably will not be prosecuted for it.

In pictures of the battle for Fallujah I have seen the so-called "insurgents" appear to be teenagers and young men -- obviously misguided and exploited by being encouraged to sacrifice their lives against overwhelming force -- but nevertheless basically defending their city against foreign occupation.

The United States is doomed to lose this war. Every war has a political objective. Military violence is merely the means to the political objective. No matter how much killing and destruction the US unleashes, it is not possible to achieve ANY stated objective of the war. It is not possible to achieve the objective of disarming Sadam of WMDs because there were none. It is not possible to achieve the objective of punishing the regime for 9/11, because it was not involved in 9/11. And it is not possible for the US to achieve the political objective of creating a stable, pro-American gas station because the population has turned against the US forces and moreover, if the civilians are allowed to vote, they will install a non-democratic Islamist regime. It does not seem to be possible even to install a pro-American dictatorship at this point.

For these reasons, not only is the war illegal and amoral, but it is doomed to failure. Therefore every life expended in this war is an utterly useless, pointless loss of life -- in other words, a murder, rather than political violence.

Sorry if you are a soldier, or a family member of a soldier, or a "supporter" of the troops; but this is the way I see it.

[IrateCitizen]

17. So, you're engaging in daily civil disobedience against the war then?

Even at risk to your body, family and livelihood?

Because if you are not, then you seriously need to SHUT THE FUCK UP about this, because you're not doing a fraction of what you are demanding others to do.

I used to be an officer in the Army Reserves. I filed for CO prior to the invasion of Iraq. When my battalion commander asked me what I would do if ordered to deploy, I said I would most likely refuse and face court martial.

Thankfully, I was honorably discharged this September, and never had to face that decision.

Having been through what I went through, though, I would NEVER demand that another person make the same decision. The only thing I would EVER ask of them is just to probe their conscience, and do what they feel is right. Why? Because I know how difficult of a decision this is, I know how much is on the line, and I know that it's the last place for me to profess to make that decision for them.

Yet you, from high inside your ivory tower, have deigned to do just that. The chain of command goes as follows:
people ---> government ---> military.
Yet you have failed on your end, so you're asking those on the bottom to not only deal with the fact that they're in war under false pretenses, but to also make up for your unwillingness to risk your own livelihood to stop this war. You're asking them to live with the consequences of a dishonorable discharge and everything that goes along with it, just so you can sleep better at night, comforted by your own moral superiority.

Unless you're willing to support all these soldiers, and their families, for the rest of their lives after they throw down their weapons, you seriously need to just go piss up a rope.

[HamdenRice]

20. After WW II

many ordinary Germans and Japanese who were simply in the "chain of command" were prosecuted for "following orders." If you are in the middle of an illegal war, and don't want to commit a war crime, you don't have many options, do you?

A soldier on the ground in Iraq he has a choice of two options -- follow orders and commit a war crime; or do not follow orders and be falsely accused and prosecuted of the crime of disertion, or deriliction of duty, cowardice, etc.

The answer to that one is ethically and morally clear. Nuremberg proved which choice is the right choice.

As for me, no Mr. officer sir who tells people what to do, I will not "shut up". Obviously, being in the military did what it was intended to do -- made you an intolerant, narrow minded, shrill, hysterical idiot who cannot stand dissent. If you can't stand dissent, why are you associating with a progressive democratic website?

People have to make choices given the situation they are in. I do not need to choose between court marshall and committing war crimes -- but then again, I am not in the armed services. I also am not living through a famine in southern Sudan, so I don't have to choose between trying to walk to Chad or hiding my family in the bush, or feeding my son or feeding my daughter. Telling me I cannot comment on the moral choice facing soldiers is as idiotic as saying that because southern Sudanese are starving, I have to choose between feeding one family member or another tonight. That's sheer idiocy and illogic.

And BTW, your own webblog has a leading entry to the effect that the war is unwinnable. If the war is unwinnable as YOU YOURSELF claim it to be then every single death being caused by it is a waste of human life. Did you forget that you wrote on your blog:



http://iratecitizen.blogspot.com/
>>>Wednesday, April 28, 2004

>>>WE CAN'T WIN MILITARILY, AND WE CAN'T WITHDRAW POLITICALLY

>>>Recently, I just finished reading "Secrets" by Daniel Ellsberg -- his memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers. All the way through, I could not help but notice the parallels between the situation then and what we face now in Iraq.


If the war is unwinnable then all killing in Iraq is a was of human life. Wasting human life for absolutely no purpose is indefensible.

[IrateCitizen]

21. Intolerance? You're the one placing demands on people.

My experience in going through this taught me that each person's decision is just that -- their decision. They ultimately have to deal with the consequences. That's why none of us -- myself included -- can presume to dictate that decision to them. We can encourage them, we can let them know that we'll be there for them, but we cannot dictate to them what decision they must make.

I fully meant what I posted on my blog. And where in this statement did I say something otherwise?

My point is this -- unless you are placing yourself in the same kind of distress that others are in, it is the height of hypocrisy for you to presume to dictate to them what course of actions they must choose.

My military training did not do what it was meant to do. I remained a free thinker and inquisitive person. That was one reason why I welcomed the opportunity to separate myself from military culture. That freethinking is also why I would never dictate that decision to somebody else -- even if I were personally being jailed for civil disobedience on a daily basis. See, where you fail to make the distinction is when you say you are commenting on this situation. You're not merely commenting -- you're presenting this decision as one that is in strict black-and-white terms, that the only acceptable course is for soldiers to throw down their arms. Many of these soldiers are currently in a combat zone. They may not believe in why they're over there, but they do believe in something -- the buddies on their left and their right, just as their buddies believe in them. They don't care about political goals, all they care about is getting home in one piece.

I've met many of these folks through the veterans' movement against the war. I hold them all in the highest regard. Many of them do not for a moment regret the fact that they were soldiers or Marines, either, because they recognize the simple nobility that comes from placing your life in another's hands willingly while they do the same to you. That doesn't make war right or noble, but it does help to recognize that this decision isn't anywhere close to as black and white as you make it out to be, and that it is disingenuous for you to present it as such.

If you think I was too harsh on you, I apologize, but I've had to address several posts like this over the past few days and it's a bit of a raw nerve. I don't think it's too much to ask that people stop placing blame where it DOESN'T belong -- with the 18, 19 and 20 year old men and women in uniform.

[HamdenRice]

22. Maybe you need to re-read the posts

Where in my posts did I "instruct" anyone? My post is headed, "Sadly, I can't support the troops..." I am expressing my view of the moral choice offered to individual soldiers.

On the other hand, your post contains a direct command -- let me quote: "you seriously need to SHUT THE FUCK UP".

Now, who is being intolerant? I think the military HAS indeed done its job on you, even if you don't recognize it. As Massey said in the very powerful article,

“I’ll be honest with you, when you’re in the military, it’s a lot like being in a mafia family. You don’t step outside the family, and it’s a very sheltered environment. I mean, you’re taken care of. You’ve got a guaranteed paycheck on the 1st and the 15th, and when you’re living on a Marine base, it’s a bit like a utopia. But with the utopia comes the conformity to the ideology, which allows the utopia to continue. If you break away from the family, they’re going to do whatever they can to keep you quiet.

“It’s very hard to break away from—you have to reach down deep in your soul for answers to questions that begin to come up.

I believe that the "support the troops" mantra feeds into this ideology, and gags us from recognizing reality. It forces us to have this underlying belief that we have to root, root, root for the home team. This blinds us to what they are actually doing, which is this:



and this:



Our troops, sadly, are wrong at this point. Whether they are fighting for the cause, or for their buddies or because they like to kill. If someone participated in a bank robbery, would it be a defense that he was just trying to get his buddies' back? Is what was done to these children justified? By the political goals of the war, which cannot be achieved? By the desire/need to follow orders? By comraderie with your buddies? This war is all about an insane disconnect between words and realities.

The whole thrust of this thread is that Massey is doing the right thing by simply not obeying orders. Sadly, the war has come to that. He recognizes that this is now the only moral choice.

Soldiers are entitled of course to make their own choices. But that does not mean that we as citizens have to support them or "shut the fuck up".

[Lone_Star_Dem]

16. Mr Massey views of recruitment mirror my own in many ways

I will take his words one step further, I want them out of our schools. I want all military recruitment in public schools to end. They lurk like vultures waiting to prey on the weak. I have seen this with my own eyes and it sickens me.