Are Christians oppressed/persecuted in the USA?

[UdoKier]

Poll question: Are Christians oppressed/persecuted in the USA?

Are Christians oppressed/persecuted in the USA?

[UdoKier]

1. Oh, look! One of our fundie friends is here!

Well, Christian Soldier, don't just lurk there in the shadows. Please explain why non-christians and non-religious people should be subjected to the Ten Commendments in public buildings, and why displaying it on your own property and in your church just isn't enough.

I can't wait to read your dissertation.

[JVS]

2. Relax it was just me screwing with you.

[UdoKier]

6. What are you trying to do, mess up the curve?

:spank:

Santa is preparing your rocks and twigs as we speak.

[sysoprock]

9. Geez man calm down.

I don't remember the line in the Democrat handbook that says they have to agree with removing anything having to do with religion from public property.

[DrWeird]

12. It's right there...

in the First Amendment.

[sysoprock]

15. is it?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I don't see any mention of Democrats having to be against the 10 commandments in public places.

Anyhow, if you look at the amendment it doesn't even say that you can't display the 10 commandments.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

Now, if the court passed a rule that said by law the 10 commandments must be displayed in front of the courthouse at all times, you would have a violation of the constitution.

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Conversely, it could be argued, and I would agree that another court passing a law requiring the removal of the 10 commandments would violate this line of the amendment.

[camero]

31. Dictionary time

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

Respecting meaning favoring. Congress shall not favor one religion or any religion over another.

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

This passage would not pertain to what can be displayed in a place owned by the government, the first phrase takes care of that one. What it prohibits is the government telling you what you can put up in your own home or place of business.

It works the same whether it's the 10 commandments, the Torah, or the Koran.

[Gman]

3. Looks like this poll smoked out at least 1 troll

that voted yes. Maybe I'm not real smart, but I absolutely fail to see how keeping someone from violating what is clear as glass in the constitution and how keeping someone from shoving their beliefs down everyone's throats without even caring if anyone is interested or not is persecution.

----------------

On edit, JVS got us!

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

4. Into the flames I go...

OK, in general, Christians have it pretty darn good in America, compared to the persecution Christians suffer around the world (Sudan, etc.) As far as in America, I think Christians like myself, and people of faith in general are bothered by both extremes, meaning the religious far-right (Falwell and Co.), and those radical few who really do want to remove all mention of God from the public square. Frankly, the Right has more influence, so that makes them more dangerous in this area (they're like the Pharisees of old).

I didn't vote yes, BTW. I'm not the one who voted yes.

[Djinn]

59. just a point

the majority of the Sudanese victims of the Janjaweed are also Muslims - the Christian versus Muslims view is convenient to the west but isn't supported by fact

[Sequoia]

5. No, but they should be.

Actually, how about some of that old fasioned Roman entertainment with lions, tigers, and bears! Christians...it's what's for dinner!

Just kidding.

[Hog lover]

8. LOL - love it! - n/t

[sangh0]

44. Most liberals are Christians

So was Martin Luther King, Jr.

You're not alone in wanting him thrown to the lions.

[Djinn]

60. really

how did you come up with that? is there a list of registered liberals that I didn't sign up to?

[Serenades]

7. Real Christians v. Fake Ones

I've found that most Christians are persecuted and scoffed at by other CHristians. In most cases that I have observed, individuals who were *really* Christians were looked down upon because they walked the walk and talked the talk. Nowadays people want to be Sunday Christians or pretend Christians. They'll go around and talk about how everyone needs God, scoff at people in other religions, talk negatively about about homosexuals, blacks, and other minorities, and tell everyone how evil the Democrats are but when it comes down to it they are not practicing the teachings of Jesus. Sure, I realize that no one is perfect but such individuals do not even try. So they are putting on a persona and not being genuine. When they come in contact with someone who is for real they treat them like garbage or tell them they are stupid or a liberal infected whacko.

[FlaGranny]

27. The reason they don't try -

once you have been "saved" - no matter what you do (you can murder a classroom full of kids) you are still saved, i.e., forgiven, and go to heaven; while, on the other hand, you can live your life doing nothing but good for your fellow man and go to hell because you are not "saved."

[Ezlivin]

10. Christians need persecution to thrive

When Xians feel persecuted, they feel as if they are facing opposition. That opposition can only come from one source: Satan.

If they are not feeling persecuted, then they begin to doubt that they are accomplishing anything. To most Protestants a persecuted Xian is analogous to a saint.

[sysoprock]

13. and I suppose Muslims need jihad to thrive?

Jesus Christ, you guys demonize this religion to no end.

You might want to take into account the good amount of Democratic Christians that we have on this board.

[Redleg]

20. Nice stereotype there, buddy.

How does this contribute to our understanding of the issue?

[Ezlivin]

23. It has been my experience

As a pastor in a Southern Baptist church and as a fundamentalist Xian for over 12 years.

I've gone door-to-door on evangelism outreaches, protested at abortion clinics and gave sacrificially to each church in which I was a member. I have prayed, fasted and read the Bible from cover-to-cover many times. I have memorized entire chapters.

I graduated with a Master's degree in divinity from one of the top fundamentalist seminaries in the country (Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary).

So I speak from experience when I talk of Xians needing persecution to thrive.

From what experience do you speak?

[Redleg]

25. Your experience is still anecdotal.

I don't question the veracity of your experiences but they do not represent religious experience across the board.

As for my experience, I was a practicing Catholic for 25 years.

[Ezlivin]

26. Well, gee, the question was rather broad

After all, I can only speak from personal experience and generalize based on that.

Your mileage may vary.

[Redleg]

29. I appreciate that. I apologize for the tone of my response.

I too have met many narrow-minded, fearful Christians (mostly Mormons in Utah) who worried that Lib'ruls were going to take God away from them. I have heard about fundies elsewhere who say the same things. I agree that a sizable group of Christians, mainly fundies, sincerely believe (have been led to believe) that we wish to deprive them of their religion.

[Ezlivin]

38. Hey, we do the best we can through the limitations of this medium

Fundamentalists are taught that their faith is under constant attack.

The big bogeyman when I was a fundy was the "secular humanist". It was this nefarious individual who lived to see all Xians persecuted. Any action taken by any person or organization deemed inimical to the faith was viewed as the enemy.

You can see how, in these circumstances, persecution was seen as omnipresent.

[sangh0]

45. You are not doing the best you can

I can only speak from personal experience and generalize based on that

You can do more than that. You can educate yourself about what's going on in the rest of the nation and throughout history. Your generalizations do not have to rely solely on your own experiences.

[Ezlivin]

46. Thanks. I will now live my life completely differently

It's a pity that I don't read, don't surf the internet, watch TV or talk to others.

I think you have me mistaken for the other boy in the bubble.

[sangh0]

49. Whatever

No one asked you to change your life completely.

It's a pity that I don't read, don't surf the internet, watch TV or talk to others.

It's a pity that you have access to all that info, but when you chose to generalize about Christians, all you could do was cite your anecdotal experiences.

[Ezlivin]

50. Anecdotal experiences do count for something when you've given...

...your entire life, soul and being to the "cause".

Your experiences may be completely different from mine, but why do you denigrate my opinions without putting forth any of your own?

Where do you stand on the original question? What shapes your answer? What fount of wisdom do you draw from?

[sangh0]

52. Wrong

Anecdotal experiences *DO* count for something, but not because one has given oneself to a cause.

Your experiences may be completely different from mine, but why do you denigrate my opinions without putting forth any of your own?

Because you are entitled to your opinion, but your method was flawed. That's why I criticized the method (and I'm surprised at your reaction to what should be a no-brainer - that you have access to non-anecdotal info and you should use it)

IOW, I never denigrated your opinion. I criticized your reliance on anecdotal evidence. Please note, I didn't criticize you for using anecdotal evidence. I criticized you for using nothing but anecdotal evidence.

Where do you stand on the original question? What shapes your answer? What fount of wisdom do you draw from?

I think that in some places, some Christians are discriminated against, and in many others, they are not. I base my answer on my experiences, news, religious sociological research (like that done by Pew and Sojourners.net), and what others have told me they have experienced.

Here's what I said when I first responded to you:

I can only speak from personal experience and generalize based on that

You can do more than that. You can educate yourself about what's going on in the rest of the nation and throughout history. Your generalizations do not have to rely solely on your own experiences.

Now what did I say there that was untrue or offensive? That you can do better? That you can learn more about this? That your experiences are not the "only" things you can speak of?

[Ezlivin]

57. Right

I base my answer on my experiences, news, religious sociological research (like that done by Pew and Sojourners.net), and what others have told me they have experienced.

And I told you what my experience was. Add that to your research and re-run the figures.

[Duncan Grant]

11. Ask a gay man.

Christians oppressed?! Christians persecuted?!

Oh, the poor dears. :nopity:

[Dookus]

19. no kidding....

it's like straight white men complaining about their sorry lot in life. Suck it up, bitches.

[Dob Bole]

21. I know at least 5 gay Christians..

so the analogy doesn't completely work. But still, I know that gay people just have to love the likes of James Dobson, etc...

[Duncan Grant]

32. Why don't you ask those 5 gay Christians how they feel about it...

before you assume to speak for them. Christians couldn't handle the persecution and oppression that GLBT people live with everyday.

The analogy doesn't work...hogwash.

[Dob Bole]

37. ?

I'm not totally sure what just happened. But I think that you think I said that GLBT people are not oppressed.

I was agreeing with you, or so I thought. I thought your point was that some Christians were oppressing GLBT people, and that would be true. But I pointed out, as an aside, that there are also GLBT Christians.

Sorry for the ensuing confusion.

[Duncan Grant]

55. Definite signal cross, Dob.

My point is: Gay men (and GLBT people) in America know more about persecution and oppression than Christians.

Yes, Christians oppress GLBT people but that's not the point I was trying to make. And now that you mention it, I can see more clearly what you were saying. :thumbsup:

Obviously this is a raw nerve for me - but the idea that Christians are persecuted in America? That's ludicrous.

[sweetheart]

14. Jesus Christ is persecuted and oppressed

I just asked him, and he said that his teachings have been wholly
abused and misunderstood, that he sees very few of his flock
amongst the millions of fraudsters in their social clubs.

[noamnety]

16. many examples where fundies are oppressed

The neocon fundies (I won't say "christians" - that's too general) have a tendency to view themselves as oppressed anytime they aren't allowed to impose their will on others.

I won't allow them to decide who I can marry? I've oppressed them.

I won't allow them to deny health care to my gay daughter? I've oppressed them.

I won't allow them to steal my birth control presecription and refuse to give it back? I've oppressed them.

I won't let them preach to my child at a school sporting event? I've oppressed them.

Today I am oppressing the neocons by not wearing a cross around my neck. Tomorrow I might oppress them by not having a jesus fish on my privately owned car.

[noonwitch]

17. That type thinks that oppression=not getting preferential treatment

Pat Robertson will get going on this vein sometimes, and I'd laugh if so many people didn't believe him.

Before Janet Reno applied RICO laws to Operation Rescue, Pat would complain whenever the activists got arrested for trespassing on clinic grounds or instructing their children to lay down in front of auto traffic in and out of the clinic's parking lot. He would complain that these poor christian women, some of them elderly, got treated like common criminals and subjected to body cavaty searches.

Incidentally, I find the whole thing they used to do with having their children lie down in front of cars to be as reprensible as the palestineans who strap bombs onto their children and send them into coffee shops and shopping malls.

Nobody is stopping Pat from distributing his voter guides in churches. Those churches are not having their tax exempt status removed for engaging in political activity.

Pat thinks it's discrimination/oppression when public schools don't have the teachers lead the kids daily in christian prayer. He thinks that by leaving organized prayer out of the school day (in order to avoid having to accomodate every religious practice out there), christians are being oppressed.

Pat thinks that christians are made fun of on tv and in movies. Maybe christians should start their own tv shows and movies. Oh, yeah, they did and no one wanted to see any of them, except the one that had a big name attached ("The Passion"). The only people who really want to watch a christian soap opera are people who are smoking weed. When it was on ("Another Life"-1980s on CBN), it was hilarious and campy. Just like the "Left Behind" movie or "Veggie Tales". I really can't think of any instance in which christians are made fun of on tv, except on Comedy Central shows, SNL or old episodes of "Sanford and Son" that feature Aunt Esther.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

18. Christians aren't but Christ sure would be.

Our courts would execute him all over again in service of the Pax Americana.

[AlabamaYankee]

22. Some groups only feel they are..

because they can't impose their particular brand of religiosity on the rest of us. In their minds, since they are "good, committed Christians" and believe a certain way, then it is a good and righteous, not to mention God-ordained, way to believe so they have the right to force on us.

I don't believe those of who are more reasonable in our faith feel particularly persecuted.

[Solar]

24. most of the "persecution"

most of the "persecution" is imagined so the fundies have something to whine about. Heaven forbid anyone else ever voice their opinion.

[cheezus]

28. typical. The oppressors whining about being "victims"

of course they're oppressed. Our constitution says that we don't have to believe the same thing as them

[Susang]

30. Hardly

Just try not being one for a day.

[Ron Green]

33. Of course Christians are oppressed, or at least mocked, in the USA.

I'm not talking about those who call themselves Christians, but real Christians who forgive. Those who turn the other cheek when criminals knock down buildings. Those who refuse to go to war. Those who really walk the walk. Bush calls himself a Christian, but he appears to be more of a Jew, in that he's grounded in the Old Testament which is all about the law and enemies and retribution. As has been generally agreed on this board, Bush's actions have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. But some people posting here seem to think that a "Christian" is about a label rather than about deeds.

[Fenris]

34. Have we ever had a non-Christian president?

The Christians who cry about persecution have the amazing ability to completely ignore history and fact. Oppressed in their own minds, really.

[Ron Green]

35. We have one now. n/t

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

36. Weren't the Founding Fathers Deists?

nt

[lurkerguy]

39. Here is what Jesus had to say about this subject...

John 15:
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

Personally, I believe Christians have it very good right now in the US, compared to history and compared to other countries currently. I have a friend who goes on what I would describe as extreme mission trips; Bible bombing in China, through the jungle with guerrillas, etc… Trips that could find him hanging upside down by his toenails in a jail somewhere. Some of the stories of what happens simply b/c someone claims Christ would shock and sadden anyone here. We have it very good.

[Cat Atomic]

40. Conservatives and their fucking martyr's complex, I swear.

Republicans are STILL complaining that they're persecuted, even when they control all three branches of government. They're STILL complaining about media bias, even though the mainstream media is completely in their pocket. And the fundamentalists STILL think they're Daniel in the fucking Lion's den. Oh and don't forget the dipshits who complain about how hard it is to be a white male in today's America.

The only Christians I've ever heard complaining about persecution have been fundamentalist assholes who cram their religion down everyone's throat. Eventually they meet someone who tells them back off, and they scream like they've been nailed to a cross.

[Swamp Rat]

42. LOL!

I call those dudes "X-tians." Here's their flag:

[skygazer]

41. No, they most certainly are not

And it's ridiculous that some claim to be. Sure, there are people who scoff at Christianity and there are people who may be rude to Christians but persecuted?

Come on. Christians are not being lynched, they are not being dragged to death behind pickup trucks, they're not being beaten and tied to fences, left to die, they're not being burned at the stake, they're not being fed to lions, they're not being stoned or forced to wear burkhas or beheaded.

THAT's persecution.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. About as much as foxes are persecuted by rabbits.

Just because the fundies are occasionally prevented from ramming their religious dogma down the throats of everyone, they cry "persecution".

Our own homegrown taliban. Though they envision aprons and maternity clothes to burqas.

[donheld]

47. O well cry me a river Xtians have it sooooo hard

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry::cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[qnr]

48. My question to the "10 Commandments" voters

Understanding that at least one of them was a joke, and that this may have been asked already, is: Which version of the 10 commandments? And if you are allowed to put up your version, are you going to allow the other two versions to be put up alongside of yours?

[toddaa]

51. Christian theology requires persecution

Persecution is the only surefire way a Christian can determine whether an action is God's will. If you aren't persecuted, you aren't following God. That's why the Christian Church, which wields absolute power over American society, continues to propagate the persecution meme. It has no choice.

[sangh0]

53. Is that why abortion is still legal?

Because "the Christian Church...wields absolute power over American society"?

[toddaa]

54. Christian Church clarification

It's not a monolithic organization like GE or IBM. Perhaps a better (geekier) term would have been Christian Meta Church. What ever that is.

[Djinn]

62. legal but unavailable in many areas

and THAT is to do with the Christian rights influence

[mitchum]

56. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

no

[frebrd]

58. Other

Christians aren't, but Atheists sure are!

[vetwife]

61. The churh is not Faith and those people are not christians in my book !

So therefore we are being persecuted. I am not judging except by their fruit and it bears no resemblence to any type of religion other than satanism. Its cultish and they are gathered sheep into their cult. Remember Jim Jones? They say they are an apple but they are actually dead lemons hanging on a tree impersonating fruit.