Civil War II: How another family shatters, thanks to Bush (personal story)

[Newsjock]

The United States of America is in deep, serious trouble. And I don't say that lightly. We are a bitterly divided nation, at each other's throats in a way not seen in a century and a half, not even during Vietnam. And that division hit home this afternoon, when my retired parents (who, incidentally, live in Florida and voted for Bush in 2000) called for what started out to be a harmless weekend chat.

I don't even remember the flow of the conversation, but I remember them talking about John Edwards' horrible debate performance, and how out of bounds it supposedly was to bring up Cheney's gay daughter. I remember them talking about how John Kerry just "doesn't look right" and how he "divorced his wife so he could marry into Theresa's money." The next part I remember quite clearly:

Me: I think we should drop this now; my blood is starting to boil.
Mom (calling to Dad): He says we should stop now because it's getting to him.
Dad laughs in the background, quite loudly.

At that point, I lost it -- even more than when Bush lost it at Friday's debate and lunged at Charlie Gibson. I let loose with the loudest, most profane tirade I think I've ever unleashed at them in all my years (even those nasty petulant-teen years), and I slammed the phone down in rage. Shaking so hard I could just barely stand, I made my way across the room and carefully sat down, almost in a state of hyperventilation.

About 14 years of decent relations with my parents down the tubes, in one short phone call, and all because of what that evil idiot Bush has done to my country.

The good news is that my father called back about five minutes later, and we at least talked for another 15 minutes, somewhat heated at times, but we at least talked, and he apologized. So not all is lost. But I have never, not for any reason, unleashed such a tirade as I did today, not to anyone, not for anything.

And that's the scene being played out across America -- friendships destroyed, homes broken and, yes, more than 1,000 soldiers' families forever shattered. And it was all for a lie. A goddamned lie.

Civil War II is here.

[XanaDUer]

1. Happened to me

I am now not speaking to two relatives.

PS-btw, it was they who insisted on talking politics, not me.

[BOSSHOG]

6. I never start a conversation about politics with family

but when asked my two cents worth I give them a hundred bucks worth. I'm toxic to them now, but thats okay. I'm the only one who served in a combat zone; I'm the only one who served in the Military. My brother in law was taken aback when I said his 15 year old son was in jeopardy of the draft if bush is reselected. Greeted with total ignorance.

[XanaDUer]

11. One was told repeatedly to not talk politics

and loves to attack and bait others, the other one, well, I have no idea wtf happened to him.

He got a mortgage and drank the Kool-Aid. He insisted to me that Bush will "win" against terrorism in four years.

Oh, and he just wants to nuke the "towelheads". :eyes:

I find it difficult to have rational discussions with people like that.

[90-percent]

2. civil war

Geez, think how bad things would be if bush was a divider, not a uniter!

-85%

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. From your account,

I would say that your parents were intentionally baiting you. What I did in the past was simply not talk to my parents. My late stepfather and I agreed in late 1970 not to talk politics, and when either of us forgot, the other simply left the room.

This may or may not work for you, but I wish you luck.

( I will say that the dynamic between me and my parents changed dramatically as their health failed and they became more dependent on their kids).

[mrbassman03]

4. I know this has split up parts of my family...

A few uncles seem to cling on to the conservative talking heads...

[Kanary]

5. Sorry for your upset, and yes, it's happening all over.

However, to be fair, I don't think this sort of division started with * -- I think it started many years ago with Lush, and has been escalating ever since.

Some people aren't a s personally affected by it, so can continue in spite of their feelings about the misadministration.

However, those who are against the war and have someone they know serving there, or those of us who are poor and know we're about to lose our means of survival can't be expected to smile and be tolerate of the blatant hate.

Sounds to me like your own parents escalated the mess, so I wouldn't worry so much about feeling responsible. They are going to have to decide just how important it is to swallow the crap, and to keep pushing it. As a parent myself, I would certainly hope that it's much more important to them to have a good relationship with you.

I'm sorry this happened today, and I can understand your upset.

Kanary

[rfkrocks]

7. * is a uniter not divider-It goes the same with me at work and

I have dear friends who are repugs but I can't talk to them about politics-we used to laugh at each other's points but now it is just anger-so I change the subject-the blame is squarely on the GOP shoulders-they appeal to their base and don't compromise and are arrogant-just the way their foreign policy is-if shrub is rekinged it will be a black day for the USA

[amazona]

8. oh wow, hugs to you

I was brought up GOP but Reagan chased our entire family out of the party, one by one, but without much in the way of family argument. I have a cousin who is a wingnut but everyone feels sorry for him because they feel he's compensating for a personal tragedy. So I feel very fortunate that we're pretty much all in agreement on the big picture.

I hope your parents see the light but if not, I hope they will realize the value of respecting your beliefs. They may wake up ten years from now and have the same beliefs -- I've seen it happen!

[deadparrot]

9. I, too, hate how divided the country is.

And I hate that "Kerry wanted Teresa's money" argument.

I mean, think about it. It makes no sense. True, it would be really easy to see Kerry as the villian, marrying the rich-from-her-recent-widowing Teresa. It would be hardest, I think, for her sons. Wouldn't *they* be the most prine to hating JK, for marrying their mother, only a few years after she was widowed? Wouldn't they, still reeling from their father's death, be the ones most likely to call Kerry a gold digger? Yet, not only do they accept and befriend him, they CAMPAIGN for him. If the Heinz boys, who would have a tangible reason to dislike Kerry, actively campaign and fight for his election, then it further helps in my believe that JK is a good and honorable man.

[RhodaGrits]

10. Bush made it "you are either with us or against us".

It is his party that is describing dissenters as "domestic terrorists".

In the past Dems looked at Repubs and thought "well, they are entitled to their opinion". By threatening the Constitution and our essential Liberty, the stakes are now too high to worry about nice. And there are far too many families and friendships divided... The blame lies with the BushCo. You have my heartfelt sympathy - they are still your family and you are gazing at them over a bitter divide.

[XanaDUer]

15. That's how I look at it.

So, I don't even had bad feelings anymore about it.

[Cha]

12. Your story is making me cry but I seem to be doing a

Lot of that these days..cying for happy and sad..your's is sad.

I'm sorry..but if it were my parents who were that way I would have done the same..I hope things come around that you get back to the way you were with them before this idiotmonster came in to Divide our Nation. he will lose and at least we can be on the road to healing our Nation.

My dad sees bush for what he is and he is in Gainseville, Fla..and his wife will vote for Kerry, too.

My Mum rest her soul is gone but she would be voting for Kerry, too..

[skygazer]

13. You are right and it's terribly painful

I posted a thread a few nights ago - I was horribly upset. My daughter had gotten so angry at me, she had pretty much disowned me. She's 24, lives in Kansas and is a major Bushbot. We'd gotten into a heated email debate, she called my a hypocrite, I replied with some choice words and it went downhill from there.

Incredibly upsetting, so much so that I could not sleep that night. And that's all I could think about was the Civil War and the tearing apart of families because of political differences. I cried a river of tears.

Today, I sent an email of apology, not for my opinions but the way I expressed them and thankfully, she replied in kind. I will avoid talk of politics with her but it's so sad that I should have to.

There is something terribly wrong when families are at each other's throats like this. The country is in turmoil and it is reflected in our own homes. I can only hope that Kerry will win this election and that reason will return to this country. :cry:

[Xenus Sister]

14. My father wants nothing to do with me because I'm a Democrat

He said "If you're a Democrat, I don't want to know you" and hung up on me. This was a few weeks ago when I tried to tell him that the Swift Boat vets were lying, and that Kerry was a good man.

I haven't talked to him since.

When Kerry wins, I'll want to call him and gloat. It may be the last time I speak to him.

(Btw, he's not a freeper-type either, just a deluded and angry, for some unknown reason, Republican)

[XanaDUer]

17. I was told that I support terrorism and beheadings

if I don't vote for Bush.

I told him it's not an either/or kind of thing.

It went downhill from there.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

16. Politics is thicker than blood, or love.

That's sick.
My 15 year old niece told my mother over the phone that "all democrats were going to hell".
My mother told her, "them I'm going to hell, how do you feel about that?"
She had nothing to say.
I called my sister up and asked her who was poisoning her mind. She had no answer.
I wouldn't say my family is broken but is sure is damaged.
Years ago I thought that what would reunite this country is a catastrophic event. Then 9/11 occurred. It didn't happen.
Right now, I honestly don't know what it's going to take to change things.
If Kerry is elected, I expect the RW to pull the same stuff they did on Clinton and escalate things.
This isn't over.

[Selatius]

18. Some advice.

I found it best to keep things away from politics whenever I get into discussions with friends or family. I live in Mississippi, so I'm outnumbered in almost any conversation anyway.

I think if one gets into a discussion over politics, it's not only a test of one's political beliefs but also a test of one's character. It can be quite difficult to control one's emotions and remain civil, especially when damning claims are leveled, but I think an honest effort should be made.

Rather than talking about the candidates themselves, perhaps the discussion should be steered towards the merits of the ideas being presented. When it's not a game of defending one of two guys, the playing field can open up quite a bit. People get emotionally invested in one candidate or another, but when the conversation is about, say, the pros and cons of our present health care system with the pros and cons of universal health care, you're not talking about the mistakes and faults of Bush or Kerry but about the merits of the idea itself.

You're talking about the message, not shooting the messenger or equating the message with the messenger. It's less politically charged when you're hashing out the issues, not attacking or defending a guy who isn't in the room.

Personally, I don't see this as approaching what happened during the Vietnam War. That war tore this country apart. That war did damage, but it was not as bad as the Civil War as far as pitting Americans against Americans in armed struggle.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

20. Maybe not now.

But how does it compare with America of the 1850's when ideologies were just as passionate and divided?
What will happen 10 years from now?
Reading these stories doesn't give me alot of hope.

[Selatius]

33. Hard to tell

I don't know what will happen 5 or 10 years from now.

If worse comes to worse, Iraq will become as great a foreign policy disaster as Vietnam ever was. That'd be the worst case scenario. The best case would be that we'd get out, and Iraq would be all better. It seems reasonable that the future situation will fall somewhere in between. The Iraqis distrust us, and there are issues with the ethnic/religious groups even living together without trying to destroy each other.

I can't tell the future. The past is 20/20 hindsight. We know how bad the Vietnam War became. We know how bad the issue of slavery and states' rights became. We don't know how bad this war will become if it does not improve, nor do we know how bad the issue of security vs. civil liberties will become if that does not improve.

Some people say we're repeating Vietnam. Others say we're repeating the mistakes of the Germans. I find it pointless to divine the future. What matters is what you do with the time you've got left, even if at the end of the day you find out you didn't have much left at all. At least you tried to do something to prevent disaster, and that counts regardless if the history books say you ultimately failed or succeeded.

[lgardengate]

37. Wise words. I agree 100% n/t

[Newsjock]

19. This is revealing -- and depressing, too

I'm reading the other stories here, and I don't know whether to be sad or angry (or, somehow, both). I think we're seeing one of the great untold legacies of the Bush tyranny here -- family after family, circumstance after circumstance, this goes far beyond the old adage of "don't talk politics."

The stakes are so high now that "politics' is no longer that easily-compartmentalized topic that can be turned on or off like a spigot. It's become ingrained into our lives, with everything having one or more associated spins.

We care deeply what happens in November -- because we will have to live with the consequences. And, yes, the "other side" also cares deeply what happens in November, although their reasoning is often quite different and downright alien to us (particularly when "rapture" gets mentioned). We know what's on the line here, and it's not just whether we can get $500 or $1,000 off our taxes for having a kid. Our very future, the rest of our lives, our survival, our culture, our legacy -- they're all on the line this November. And, unlike a CNN poll, there will be no mulligans on Nov. 2. I hope.

[cally]

21. You're parents were completely out of line

About a year ago, I had a similar blowup with my father. We didn't speak for at least a month and probably more like two months. My kids spoke to them. Little by little, they reached out to me. We just don't speak about politics ever. My kids bring up politics, my husband does, but I never say a word. It's too painful that the parents I respect who taught me great values support this maladministration. It makes me question everything I believed I knew about my parents. I'm 46 btw, so I've gone through the normal rebellions already. This one is more painful.

I would let it go for awhile but I'm sending many :hug: because I do know how hard and painful this is.

[smitty]

22. civil war II

I have Democrats and Republicans in my family and along my friends. Maybe it's just me, but I have had political discussions without everyone becoming enraged. Don't turn every disagreement into a national crisis, rational discourse can go a long way to change minds. when this election over, my relatives will still be my relatives and my friends will, I think, remain my friends. At least Newsjock's father had the good sense to call back and apologize.

Would you have called back Newsjock, after all it was you who unleashed the tirade.

[rfkrocks]

27. gee at least I read the post smitty

His father pushed him hence the guilt to apologize-it was dad's fault for not backing off-the good sense was admitting the mistake which was the fathers

[smitty]

30. Gee, I read the post too.

Yeah the father pushed him but it was the son who launched into the obscene tirade at his father AND his mother. Apologies should have been made by both parties---the father's thoughtlessness does not justify an even more thoughtless reaction.

P.S. I'm a father too.

[Zorbet55]

23. What was once private is now very public

I recall 2 things that were never discussed because of their passion and privacy. 1 religion 2 politics. I recall parents telling children not to worry about how they intended to vote, because their vote was private and nobody else's business.

This is only my opinion, but I believe that the Reagan years did enormous harm to Americans. Suddenly, the "ME" generation declared war on the poor as being the cause of their not being able to achieve greater wealth. It also became the time when Republicans seized the US Stars and Stripes and said that anyone who disagreed with them was unpatriotic. It also renewed the spirit of the Military Industrialists who found that War and Weapons of Mass Destruction were popular again. It also was a period when organized labor was denigrated as a social ill that needed to be vanquished and union-busting was prominent. I believe it to have been a decade of war on the middle class, which said that if you don't become greedy like us, then you are going to end up being lower class because we plan to destroy the middle class.

[knowbody0]

24. i was banished in the 70's

considered a communist
never looked back
started my own family
it sucked but i've never regretted the choice
i have a big family now and raised not one sheep

[Hello_Kitty]

25. I've lost friends over this

And I don't think the relationships will ever return to what they were before, even long after this election. Maybe people think I should lighten up but I can't. This is personal to me. One friend in particular really has me steamed. I can't even look at her. I spent 10 years in the military and she, a pampered princess "security mom" who falls apart if she breaks a nail, has the audacity to question MY commitment to this country I love and my support of our troops.

[4morewars]

26. What are the issues....

that affect them ? That has to be your starting point. Are they greedy self absorbed billionaires ? millionaires ? If so then, by all means , bush* is their guy. You should not waste your time . IF, on the other hand, they are retired, on a fixed income, depending on medicare, need costly prescription drugs to stay alive, etc. Then you have a place to start.
Are they cold, uncaring , war mongering monsters, living in a spiritual void ? No? Then, alert them to the facts of the war. Show them some pictures of rows of flag draped coffins, find a story or two of the people that have lost loved ones in the war. Show them the pictures of the maimed and broken bodies, the limbless children, let them know of the Iraqi people that lose their entire families in a day. How would they like to feel the wrath of helicopters firing on their home? Marines shooting at them in the night. Do they live near a water tretment plant, a power plant, a hospital? city hall? All hard targets if they lived in Iraq,including the surrounding neighnorhoods, collateral damage is the price the chicken hawks are willing to pay. Saddam is no longer in power, no WMDs were found, WHY are we still killing civillians ?
Is your dad a veteran? Did he serve with honor? Did he win any medals ? Did he lose any friends in combat?
OR did he take his duty lightly, shirk his responsibilities, go AWOL ? I'll wager not. So what does he think of a so called man, that uses influence and wealth to get a cushy stateside posting in a time of war, and then not even show up for that? AND THEN, this same man can so callously send thousands to their deaths? And thousands more to be forever maimed and mangled by the war ? People in the same units that he joined to avoid war?

I'm sure you can think of many more reasons NOT to vote for these war profiteers. You need to identify the issues that will touch their hearts and souls and start from there. Try not to yell and no name calling. You have to deliver your message from a place of love, otherwise the message is tainted, as is the messenger.
Your dad called back, that is good. They have raised at least one caring, thoughtful person, (i have read a few of your posts in the past) so they are probably just misguided. Good luck.
I wish you peace, joe

[annabanana]

29. That is a very good and useful post 4more...

I've discovered that just about everyone I know, on both sides of the aisle have a good, compelling and strong reason NOT to vote for Bush.

And pretty much everyone supports the troops. They should be directed to www.optruth.org, and www.anysoldier.us/HowToSend.html so they can see for themselves just how UN-supportive this administration is, and how they've endangered them unnecessarily.

[4morewars]

34. Thank You !

Everytime i see a post from you, I say this, "annabanana fee fi fofana, annabanana !!!!" I just CAN'T help myself !! I'm doing it right now !
D'Oh !!!

[robertpaulsen]

28. I'm having similar problems with my Dad.

I just spent the weekend with him at his relatively conservative beach community. Conversation certainly got heated at times, but the problem is not so much that he doesn't listen to me, but he's surrounded by religious types at his Orthodox Church who are extremely anti-Muslim. So, I left a copy of House of Bush House of Saud with my Dad. If I can't change his personal prejudices, the least I can do is show him how Bush's rhetoric doesn't match his actions. Unfortunately, it's an incredible uphill battle. Thank God California's not a swing state. I feel for you, Newsjock. Hang in there.

[porphyrian]

31. But, bush is a uniter... - n/t

[4morewars]

36. Actually, he is an idiot...

Unfortunately, the people that are really running things are not. well, not entirely, THEY know the value of "divide and conquer" I have never seen this country THIS divided.

[Coventina]

32. Another damaged family here

same story, same heartache.

I hate what Bushco has done to this country.
:mad:

And yes, if Kerry wins...well, the treatment he'll get will make Clinton's terms Club Med in comparison.
"Winning" will be almost as bad as losing, I fear.

[greekspeak]

35. My weekend chat with Dad was posted yesterday

As he accused me of slandering Gallup by pointing out their puke-leaning ways, and then informed me that all the polls are off because Shrub is really WAY ahead of Kerry. Like by 20 points (i.e. twice the gallup 11 point figure).

[Philostopher]

38. Newsjock, you have my sympathies.

It's not as 'close to home' for me, but Mr. Nownow is dealing with this. He finally had to ask his mother to avoid political topics entirely when either or both of us were at her house, because he thinks she's crazy to support Bush* when her income is primarly through Social Security, she's environmentally aware and very literate, and she was a single mother (widowed just after his birth). For some reason, though -- maybe having grown up in Cincinnati among racists -- she's determined to vote for Bush* and to defend him to all comers.

I'm lucky -- my whole immediate and secondary family, cousins, uncles, mother, brother and sisters all are Democrats. They're not all liberals, but they vote for Dems. My uncle was WWII vet and belonged to a union all his working life, as did my late father. We only disagree in degree, the basic points are shared. They all remember FDR and Harry Truman, and unlike Republicans, the Democratic party still does at least pay lip service to many of the things FDR and Truman stood for.

I've already told the Mr. that if Kerry loses, his family can forget about seeing me for Thanksgiving, Christmas or any other family gathering for at least six months. I know it makes it hard for him -- he's already blown off to me about his mother repeatedly this election season, she sends him every bogus, unsupported right-wing e-mail anybody sends her, and several times I've stopped him from just calling her on the phone and saying, 'don't talk to me anymore, I don't need this shit.' I told him he'd regret it, and if Kerry won, he wouldn't be able to pretend not to gloat.

So, the only way we can function as a couple with his family is to avoid talking politics with his mother and hope Kerry wins. They can say any trumped-up crap they want about Kerry in front of me, if he wins -- it won't matter to me nearly as much. I'm living in fear that things are going to get ugly around here if he loses, though. I don't know what's going to happen.

[SarahB]

39. I'm sorry.

I can't imagine. My parents are both Democrats and we still have trouble getting along. Politics tends to be a nice, neutral spot in our conversations thankfully. :)

[neebob]

40. My mother and I aren't talking

but I don't blame Bush. I blame her, for her mindless near-worship of him. I really think if it came down to me or him, he'd win. Like if he sent some goons to her house and they looked like nice Mormon boys and promised to be kind, I think she'd turn me in.