I was reading the Bible and I really think that * may be the anti-christ

[Melodybe]

The Bible says that the anti-christ will claim to be a man of peace who brings the world to war.

Bush has claimed to be a "peace" president, he also believes that peace is best accomplished by blowing up innocent Iraqis.

AlQueda is now in 60 countries and we are on a brink of a World War.

The seven headed beast fortold in Revelations is the media spinning their hurricane of lies.

All I can say is Bush, the anti-christ is right on time.

[Character Assassin]

1. Given the history of apocalyptic predictions based on the Bible...

You may want to reconsider that opinion. There is a vast multitude of those behind you in history who failed spectacularly.

[bunkerbuster1]

2. Been reading "Revelations?" Feh. Jefferson put it best:

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it, and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."

Amen.

[TomClash]

3. It is useful to read the Bible

but only outside the grasp of organized religion

[salvorhardin]

4. Yeah, and as soon as

my computer finishes enumerating the 9 billion names of god the whole universe will end.

I suspect you have about five seconds...

[salvorhardin]

8. The above was sarcasm

not trying to be offensive.

[Gildor Inglorion]

14. I remember reading a science-fictionish story to that effect....

many years ago. Can't remember the author; too lazy to Google...oh, Arthur C. Clarke. Good story!:yourock:

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

5. I have a baptist friend

who believes that George Bush could be the anti-christ too.

[salvorhardin]

7. It's not whether Bush *is* the antichrist

or not, but whether Bush (or his followers) *thinks* he's the antichrist -- or that the "end times" are a desirable situation to bring about.

[kysrsoze]

29. More likely it's Big Dick Cheney or Karl Rove

[Melodybe]

9. I'm not christian, I love Jesus but disagree with any organized religion

But thinking of Nostradamus and the Bible I really think that Bush is the tyrant that may bring about the bloodiest of World Wars.

I guess I'm egnostic, but really do my own thing religion wise, and after a life time of trying not to pay attention to Jesus his words are winning me over, not to be born again, but to appreciate what a gift he was to the world. The organization of Christianity has brought about the most bloody wars in history.

[Warpy]

22. So does the Pope

for all of you out there who thinks he knows what he's talking about.

I'm an unbeliever who sees Revelations in its historical context, an early Christian's wet dream about the destruction of Rome.

However, the Antichrist is real and always with us in one form or another. You know who he is by what he does, which is completely opposite of the valid teachings of Christ. Because he's a constant presence, we all have to make sure he stays out of power, although he will always manage to amass riches and cultists.

Bush isn't the first one and he won't be the last one.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. I've often felt like he could be, but

I really am not into the whole end of the world and secret rapture bit.

I'd be ok with Jesus coming back down here as Himself and living with us, but am just as fine with the idea of every individual growing to encompass those virtues of Christ's I most admire.

Even so, I still can't help but think that * is the anti-Christ on so many levels.

----------------------------------------------------------------
And God told His children: "I love you. Play nice."

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[craiga86]

10. IF you read into the bible

It preaches against social injustice and oppression of the poor. I go to a Baptist University (Campbell University) and we are required to take a class called Intro into Religion, and I have only been in this class for about 4 weeks. Being someone who has just finished a test for the Old Testament, the Bible really doesn't reflect this idea of (admitted among peers) social darwinism attitude that Republicans support. One example is the Eighth Century Prophet, Amos, who was one of the MAJOR prophets actually preached on oppression of the poor and social injustice throughout his his lifetime.

I mean I don't understand how these Repugs love to claim god, but pretty much go the completely opposite of what it preaches.

[kirkm76]

62. Yeah, but aren't most people supposed to like the antichrist?

<EOM>

[Renew Deal]

11. Have a look at this.

This was posted in the meeting room.

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/

[FearofFutility]

31. I visited that site

some time ago. At first, I thought it was amusing, but by the time I finished reading the "evidence", my tinfoil was firmly in place.:tinfoilhat: :-)

[Ezlivin]

12. Cart before the horse?

Doesn't god have to exist first before we can start assigning enemies?

Well, at least that's what I learned in seminary (MDiv '93).

:)

[Zeke]

13. NO.

The scripture said power was given to (Anti-Christ) to perform all manner of miracles and wonders...and by preaching peace he'll deceive many.

Bush is loser and the only miracle he's performed is living passed 40-years old: drugs, drinking, more drugs, drugs.

And as for peace: Bush is not that.

[The empressof all]

15. Self fulfilling Prophecy

I think much of what you point out may be some self fulfilling prophecy on the part of a mad man.

However the recent rash of Hurricanes, Earthquakes and Volcano's does give one room to wonder.

Fortunately, I don't believe in such things.

[TexasChick]

16. George doesn't fit the profile

In my opinion, I don't think smirking chimp qualfies.

I think the Bible tells us the anti-Christ will come from a desert land. I don't think the US qualifies exactly as a desert land. Plus, Isreal will be at war when the anti-Christ comes to make peace with the Isrealites. He will make a peace treaty with them and cause peace. That's why MILLIONS will think he is Christ and be fooled easily. Plus, the rapture must take place first. The rapture is, Jesus coming to earth to "rapture" his church, i.e., the disappearance of millions of his true believers from the earth. The ones "left behind" will have to endure 7 years of tribulations, one being Isreal at war with other nations.

I know chimp is pro-Isreal right now and could turn against them, but still don't think he qualifies. And, I don't think any nation is being "fooled" by the chimp. Plus, half of us in this nation isn't being fooled either. However, his connections to the Saudi's and bin Laden's is paving the way for the anti-Christ!

Google: PNAC - Project for a New America! Scary stuff.

I know some may disagree with me, and that's okay. I'm new here, so go easy on me!

Jennifer

[The Night Owl]

17. Texas is sort of a desert land!

Not that I buy any of this Antichrist nonsense.

[TexasChick]

21. He isn't from Texas sweetie...

He was born in Connecticut and moved to Texas later.



Jennifer

[The Night Owl]

27. Before being president, Bush was the Governor from Texas.

Saying that Bush was the Governor from Texas does not mean he was born there, does it? Of course not.

[TexasChick]

28. Whatever!

[Silverhair]

35. He was raised in Texas.

His parents moved to Texas when he was two years old. He has no childhood memories of any place else. His pre college education was all in Texas schools - at first public, later private - but all in Texas. He is a Texan.

[DeepModem Mom]

19. Welcome, hopeisontheway!

[kysrsoze]

30. Israel is at war with Palestinians and Bush has his roadmap to "peace"

I could also argue that the rapture is happening in the form of millions of "true believers" who are disappearing from the earth because they are choosing to follow this fuck's teachings rather than those of God/Christ. Have you all considered that the anti-Christ could be the Rev. Moon, who owns the Washington Times was proclaimed the new Messiah in a U.S. Government building?

I really should stop thinking about this stuff, but then again it fits so well and this isn't the first time it's crossed my mind.

[bloodyjack]

34. perhaps "desert land" = a country that is morally bankrupt?

[shawn703]

18. Well...

Although there is debate as to whether antichrist is the same as the First Beast of Revelation. When I read 1 John and 2 John, it seems like a more correct interpretation that "antichrists" are those that deny that Christ came (they are against Christ). (These are the only places that the word antichrist actually appears.)

But the First Beast, (who we can call The Antichrist, if you take the popular definition) is supposed to be a minor leader (maybe Governor of Texas) who gains power through a Miracle (Supreme Court recount?)

But the whole earth is supposed to follow him with Wonder (unless their name is written in the Book of Life.) Right now he's a LONG way off from that.

Anyway, the Rapture is supposed to happen before the Antichrist comes to power, so wait for all the planes to fall out of the sky first. ;)

[Sputnik]

20. I agree with my mom on this one

that Bush is too hated by the rest of the world to be the anti-Christ.

[Vickers]

23. He's too fucking stupid to be the Anti-Christ

C'mon, seriously....Georgie? lmao!!!!!

The Devil can do MUCH better than that!

:spank:

[sweetheart]

24. process theology, mate

The anti-christ is inside you, and so is christ, so is god.

The human ego can "bring the world to war.", no matter what the
scale, even inside ones own heart. Bush is a false prophet.
And we fault him for projecting his psychology on to others, so that
someone outside himself is "evil" and as well "good"... and all of
it fundamentalist claptrap.

The crucifiction is happening right now, in your own heart, and the
tortured profound love of your soul, is wounded by the roman spear,
but knowing that god has not forsaken you, even if it appears so,
there is profound awareness that God is here right now.

The only anti-christ that will spoil your enlightenment is you.

[GoBama]

25. I always thought the anti christ had to be from Europe...

I guess it's all debatable though.

[ArkDem]

26. mixed metaphor alert!

[happyslug]

32. My interpretation of Revelations

Relate to it being not only a prediction of what will occur but what had occurred in the past.

What I mean by this is the Middle East has always had three major "Superpowers", Egypt, Asia Minor and Persia. Of these three groups Egypt is the most secure, its border on the Mediterranean is very small. The approaches to Egypt from Ethiopia via the Nile are also quite small in area. Thus in Ancient time Egypt was almost always invaded from right is today Israel (With the Exception of One invasion from Ethiopia, another from Libya, with Cleopatra's Egypt Accepting Rome's rule via the Mediterranean). Even Alexander the Great took Egypt via Palestine, thus Egypt really only has one serious area to defend and that is Palestine (The Fifth Crusade invaded Egypt from the Sea as did Napoleon, but both were defeated and England's rule of Egypt was not one of "Conquest" but of working with the existing rulers who continued to rule even as the British Army occupied Egypt from the 1800s till the 1950s).

Asia Minor, on the other hand, has been Invaded via the Balkans, the Caucasus's, Persia, the Black Sea the Mediterranean Sea as while as from Palestine. Thus any country based in Asia Minor has to worry about invasions from at least five BROAD Directions (as compared to Egypt's very small areas of operations for any invading Army). The Hittes, the Assyrians, The Greeks, the Romans, the Byzantines and finally the Turks all had to worry about invaders not only from the Mid-East but from other directions (For Example during the Arab Conquest Constantinople had to send an Army not only to fight the Arabs, but the Avers in right is now Hungary, the Bulgarians in rights is now Bulgaria and the Lombards in Northern Italy for fear that any of them may move against Constantinople). For this reason Asia Minor has changed hands many times since the start of Civilization (compared to Egypt and Persia).

The final Power is Persia, not as isolated as Egypt, but not as open as Asia Minor. The Caspian Sea is landlocked so rarely used as an invasion avenue, Turkmenistan, Kirghistan, and the rest of the Former Soviet Asia states are deserts communities that have invaded Persia but rarely with enough force to conquer Persia. Afghanistan is even more remote (through Both Cyrus and Great and Alexander the Great used Afghanistan as the steeping stone from Persia to Pakistan). A branch of the Himalayas separates Persia from the Indus Valley (Modern Pakistan) which along with the Baluchistan Desert. The Baluchistan Desert protects Persia from an invasion from Pakistan (When Alexander the Great decided to Return from the Indus Valley after Conquer it, he sent part of his army home via the Baluchistan Desert and lost most of it do to the arid conditions of the Country).

Western Persia also drains into the Tigris River which draws Persia into right is now Iraq. When Cyrus the Great took Babylon it was more a Coup than a Conquest, some people did not hear of it will three days after he had control of Babylon (No conquest he just moved his Army right in after defeating the army of the Second Babylonia Empire). The reason for this Babylon was already becoming more and more Persian toward the end of the Babylonia Empire. Alexander kept up what Cyrus had built when he took over the Persian Empire, but with the division of Alexander's Empire the Mid-East fell back to its Traditional three points with Persia retaining right is now Southern Iraq.

When Rome Ruled Asia Minor and Egypt, the Persian Capital was on the Tigris River. Rome and Persia more or less divided Iraq between Persia, Armenia and Rome, with Rome only wanting to retain enough of the Area to keep any Persian Army away from the Mediterranean. The problem with that is the best place for such a border is among the Rivers that flow into the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers. The problem is once guarding such a location such an army is drawn to the Riches of the Mesopotamia (Greek for Between the Rivers). While the Army was draw (and an easy March) to re-supply them meant sending troops through the Mountains between Iraq and the Mediterranean Sea (an Difficult Effort). Thus the army was draw to Iraq, but holding Iraq was very difficult given the nearest of the Persians.

Persia suffered from the same problem, the only secure borders where the same mountains but on the side facing the Mediterranean. Once located they it was an easy march to the Mediterranean where the same problem occurred for the Persian Army). In the last Days of Rome (and the early days of the Byzantine Empire) these problems kept arising, Rome wanted a Secure Eastern Border but that meant conquering Persia, but Rome did not have the power to hold onto Persia. The same with Persia, its secure Western Border was on the Mediterranean, but a Persian Army on the Mediterranean was a threat to Roman Forces in the the Eastern Mediterranean. Rome/Byzantine and Persia fought over this from the Foundation of the Sassanids Persian Empire in 227 AD till the Fall of that Empire to the Arabs in 651 AD (Earlier fights between Rome and The Parthian Empire was more one sided given that the Parthians real base was todays Afghanistan and Pakistan NOT Persia, the Pathans to this day control the Mountains of Pakistan and Southern Afghanistan).

Revelations can not be understood until you understand these three major players in the Mid East and how they relate to one another and to the other players in the mid-east.

Now Arabia is also a player in this field but very rarely a major player. Arabia, when united and the three big players exhausted do to wars among themselves can take over the Mid-East (this First seems to have occurred in pre-biblical time when what is now Iraq cease being a collection of Independent City States and became a united Empire under a Semitic Ruler from Arabia, it occurred again when Byzantine and Persia fought a very bloody war in 600s (Ending in the Battle of Nineveh in December of 627 AD where the Persian Army was destroyed).
This defeat left the Persia destroyed and Byzantine almost as bad so that the Arabs invaded Syria in 630 AD defeating the last Roman Army sent against them in the Battle of Yarmuk in the fall of 636.

Yarmuk is just outside of Meggido so Yarmuk may very while be the real battle of Armageddon, it is in the right location and reflects the results of long aggressive war. As one historical pointed out the Battle of Yarmuk meant the final destruction of the Mercenary Roman Army. Constantinople afterward had to switch to raising an army via giving Soldiers plots of land at the end of their military terms. These plots of land were inheritable but only if the heir served in the Byzantine army (In what was called a "Theme"). This pattern of raising and paying for troops would remain the norm in the Middle East till the 1800s.

Yarmuk is also at the end of a long Religious controversy, the nature of Christ. Do to the Arab Conquest the monophysitist (Those who believe in Christ having only one nature not two) came under Muslim Rule while the Orthodox (Including the Catholic Church) remained under the Emperor (The Orthodox believe in Christ having two nature one divine and one human, i.e. he was MAN when he was on Earth, but GOD both before and after his time on Earth). Typical of many religious disputes this religious dispute is a mask for other very secular disputes. In this case between who was to control the remains of the Roman Empire given the fall of the Empire in the West? Was it to be Egypt or Greece? Thus Yarmuk also fulfills many of the requirements of the "Seals" etc. One of the battle involving the Kings of Ancient Israel also occurs near Meggido, and again as the result of the fall of the Power holding Asia Minor (At that time the Assyrians). IT was another bloody battle like Yarmuk, occurring at a time of religious dispute in Ancient Israel (The dispute, while Religious in Nature, Reflecting the real secular dispute between those who wanted to support Egypt and those that wanted to Support Assyria and other who wanted to stay neutral).

Now I am NOT writing this paper to show Yarmuk was the Battle of Armageddon (It will take someone with a better background on Revelations than I have to do), but to show that the battles mentioned in Revelations may reflect HISTORY and the fact that HISTORY will repeat itself. Especially when the History is the result of ongoing tensions caused by three major powers coning into conflict with each other in a very poor area, an area that WILL not increase the wealth of any of the three powers but if held by one of the others is a direct threat to at least one of the major powers.

Thus Revelations MAY not be what someone sees in a Crystal Ball but the result of the tension between people living in the Mideast between these three Super Powers of the Mid-East (and the various alliances between the three major powers and the tribes in the area between these major powers). Given the nature of the Three Super Powers, Asia Minor has almost always been the first of the Three to fall to an invader from some other direction (and the least likely to fall to the other two). Thus that may be part of what happens in Revelations, Asia Minor Falls, the Allies of the Asia Minor Powers start to align themselves with one of the other tow powers and this further upsets the balance of power. Sooner or later one of the Tribal Allys switches between Persia and Egypt (or even tries to establish an new alliance with whatever is the new Asia Minor Power). This switch unhinges the whole balance of power and all the armies of the area go to war and thus you have a Battle of Armageddon. The battle of Yarmuk smacks of this, Byzantine was in internal conflict and foreign attack in Europe, Persia saw an opportunity to expand and took it, but this worried the Egyptians that they stop fighting the Greeks and back the Greeks to defeat the Persians. The Greek Victory in 627 further upset the relations between the Greeks and the Egyptians at the same time the Tribes of Arabia saw all three major powers to weak to stop them. Thus you have the Arab conquest (which stops with the Greeks losing Egypt forever and the idea of a world wide secular empire dieing with the lost of Egypt). After 627 Byzantine no longer speaks Latin, it speaks Greek, its army consists of poor farmers not hired mercenaries, it remains a Dictatorship but almost all religious disputes disappear (Mainly given that the vast Majority of its Citizens are Greeks not the multi nationality of the Roman Empire).

Just some background on Middle East and how Revelations may fit in.

[Swamp Rat]

33. He's an alien lizard! Don't vote for him!

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

44. I am a Christian

does that make me an idiot in your eyes?
Curious to know,
BHN

[Elginoid]

45. well, if you put it that way...

yes.

[BeHereNow]

46. You think Christians are idiots?

Is that what you are saying?
Do you think it wise or prudent to call all of the
Christians on DU idiots?
I find it intolerant and inflamatory,
and I do believe you owe us an apology.
BHN

[Elginoid]

48. hey- you asked a question. YOU used the word "idiot", not me...

all i did was give an honest answer.

[BeHereNow]

49. You responded to a reply I posted to Dorian

So I stand corrected- You said our faith was "bullshit"
and Dorian said we were "idiots."
I take offense at both.
Christian bashing is no different than Jew bashing,
Muslim bashing, gay bashing or race bashing.
They fact that you do not recognize this is astounding.
Please refrain from disrespecting other DU members
and their beliefs.
BHN

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

51. Perhaps we should also

refrain from discussing any reality that
you don't agree with? Your thoughts are the
only ones that qualify as "thinking human being" thoughts?
Is that what you are saying?
I find your thinking extremely narrow and arrogant.
I am thankful for the tolerance and diversity among
the members of DU; I can not say that it has
ever been my experience that intolerance and ignorance
are the qualities of a "thinking human being."
BHN

[Elginoid]

52. you know what's REALLY funny...?

someone like you trying to preach "tolerance"...

[BeHereNow]

53. Tolerance does not include

abuse.
I find your posts and attitude towards Christians abusive-
just as surely as if you had called homosexuality bullshit.
Or Judaism bullshit, or any other group of
people that you don't agree with, bullshit.
Christian bashing is not okay at DU.
I will not tolerate abuse.
I tolerate your right to a difference of beliefs, but not
your imagined right to insult others for theirs.
BHN

[Elginoid]

55. actually, no.

"I find your posts and attitude towards Christians abusive-
just as surely as if you had called homosexuality bullshit..."

ummm...it might interest you to know that people are born homosexual,
"christians" on the other hand are not born as such, but deluded into it thru indoctrination by the bullshit writings/thoughts/words of other human beings.

in my opinion, christianity- and all other organized religion is utter bullshit, and always will be.

if you don't agree with my opinion, i'd reccomend that you either place me on "ignore", or else manually refrain from clicking on my posts.

[BeHereNow]

58. In hopes of enlightening you

may I tell you that Christians consider themselves born as well-
not in a physical sense, but in a spiritual one.
I support your right to believe what ever you want.
I do not support your insulting others in expressing those beliefs
or classifying a whole groups of people as less than you for having
beliefs that are different than yours.
BHN

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

61. I have never insulted homosexuals

Many of my dearest friends and family members are gay.
You have insulted me by saying that my right to believe
in Christianity as a faith is an insult to gay people,
and that the rights and validity of a Christian are not equal
to those who are gay.
Who is insulting who around here?
BHN

[Elginoid]

63. by likening what you see as the "abuse" of christians...

to the abuse of homosexuals, you are insulting homosexuals by inferring that being gay is a choice, akin to religious preference.

pretty obvious, actually.

[BeHereNow]

65. Christianity is not a choice.

hate to tell ya, but it is not a choice any more
than being gay, black, white or otherwise.
But since you really don't seem to learn about
Christianity, but rather bash it and decide on
you own limited knowledge just what Christians believe
I guess it is useless to try to share that with you.
Again, I repsectfully ask you to respect the rights
and beliefs of people on DU who do not believe as you do.
You have repeatedly slandered and insulted every
DU Christian by your posts on this thread.
Stop it. Please.
BHN

[Elginoid]

68. Bullshit.

nobody is born a christian, a muslim, a shintoist, or despite what they would have you believe, even a jew- in the religious indoctrination sense.

Being raised as such, I used to be a christian, too. but i educated myself out of it. I can only hope for you that someday you're able to do the same.

peace be with you.

[BeHereNow]

73. Bullshit to you is not bullshit to me.

Please respect my right to believe what I believe.
You may have been raised as a Christian but that
did not make you a Christian. Only God has that ability.
I was raised as Christian too, but I was not given the
gift of grace until the age of thirty five.
I was not a Christian until then.
And thank you , but I have no need to educate myself
out of that condition- it can not be done actually.
If you had ever been an actual Christian you would know that.
I am sorry for what ever hardened your heart so, but
I feel no need to allow you to take it out on me or
other Christians here on DU.
Bashing is bashing, and you have been bashing my and
other people's faith.
BHN

[Elginoid]

76. indoctrination by any other name...

it's sad really- the stranglehold that religious bullshit can put on some people's sensibilities. I can only hope that someday society will outgrow it, although i doubt that any of us will live to see it happen.

oh well...all we can do is keep on fighting the good fight, and try to be ever-vigilant as the stench of what should be private religious zealotry continues to try to seep into our public forums, and every other aspect of our society.

peace be with you.

[kimchi]

85. Technicality.

No one is "born" Christian, but they are indoctrinated, as you say, from birth in many homes in this nation. Therefore, they do NOT have a choice until they are of the age to think for themselves, which varies.

So "born" is fine with me, in that it implies a parent choosing religion for the child.

I was once Christian, too, and "educated myself out of it." Now I'm Pagan, which probably puts a kink in your shorts also. Everyone has the right to believe what they want without harassment.

Therefore, I say unto thee, please stop putting down the Christians. As you might guess, the Christians on this board are not mindless hypocrites, in that they practice "tolerance and charity" what they preach as democrats "tolerance and charity".

You may not believe this, but "intelligence" and "spirituality" are not mutually exclusive. (Thanks Big Dawg)

edit: spelin

[MostlyLurks]

77. That's thin, at best.

You know damn well what BHN was saying when she referred to homosexuals in her post.

[BeHereNow]

80. Thanks, but I am not so sure...

That e does know.
Bigotry creates the most severe condition of blindness.
Blindness on a soul level, which I think is perhaps more
crippling than on a physical sense. I know which
one I would choose, were I forced to.
BHN
Welcome to DU Mostlylurks!

[Elginoid]

81. all i know is what was posted.

comparing the perceived "abuse" of christians, who are that way by their own choice- to the real abuse of homosexuals who are born gay, is demeaning to the 'plight'(if you will) of homosexuals.

[MostlyLurks]

87. OK, so let's play that out to its conclusion

In other words, as long as I pick an issue with you that has nothing to do with inate characteristics, I can basically say what I want about you, instead of adding anything relevant or useful. Is that right?

So your atheism is bullshit. End of discussion, stalemate. It's discourse American style!

And by the way, I am arguing for neither side here, I simply find your line of argument to be disingenuous.

[AngryOldDem]

86. Duly noted

>>>"christians" on the other hand are not born as such, but deluded into it thru indoctrination by the bullshit writings/thoughts/words of other human beings.

in my opinion, christianity- and all other organized religion is utter bullshit, and always will be.>>>

Fine. That's YOUR opinion. But BHN's comments still stand -- the level of intolerance toward Christianity -- Catholicism in particular -- on DU has become its biggest drawback to what I see as the most open and progressive Internet board I have come across. No other group, no other organization could be as consistently trashed, mocked, and ridiculed as Christianity is here. Take out the references to Christianity and Christians in the above post and replace them with any other societal group and see how fast you'd be reported to the mods. Only with Christianity, it seems, blatant insult is "criticism."

I think the broader answer, rather than ignoring particular posters, is just ignoring subject lines that have anything to do with religion. That's your first clue that things are probably going nowhere.

[BeHereNow]

89. THANK YOU

You made my point far better than I when you
said this:
" Take out the references to Christianity and Christians
in the above post and replace them with any other
societal group and see how fast you'd be reported
to the mods."
That is what I have been trying to say, so thank you.
I too, am tired of the Christian bashing- it would
certainly not be tolerated were it directed at any
other group of people.
To tolerate it towards Christians and not others is
hypocritical.

BHN

[BeHereNow]

54. So by your logic- we can all feel disrespected

If Jewish people discuss their faith here-
or Homosexuals discuss their divine right to a union of marriage,
or African Americans discuss the blatant discrimination
against them in this country.
By your logic, anyone who differs from our own reality
is disrespecting us...Gee I didn't know how disrespected
I had the right to be on a daily basis here at DU-
I don't always agree with every view on DU, but I
certainly to not tell others their views are "bullshit"
nor do I feel disrespected by others having differing beliefs
and views.
It must be wonderful to be certain that your
beliefs are the only right and valid ones- how easy
it becomes to then dismiss and insult anyone who does
not share them, and to even hold the belief that you
have some sort of right to do so, and the rest of us
are simply to practice tolerance while you crap all over us.
Nice.
Reminds me of certain hate-talk radio hosts.
BHN

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

57. Since your expertise about Christianity

is limited to calling it "bullshit" thus far,
please clarify further what a Christian is supposed to
look or act like. A door mat? A punching bag?
BHN

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

67. That is really narrow of you.

That is like posting a picture of little black sambo
to share your vision of what African Americans look like.
Do you stereotype all people who are not like you,
or just Christians?
BHN

[Elginoid]

70. again- you asked the question...i only answered it.

if you can't tolerate my opinion-

don't ask for it.

peace be with you.

[BeHereNow]

74. As a Christian

I do not tolerate stereotyping and bigotry of anyone
very well.
You seem to have confused Christianity with
condoning and forgiving hatred directed at select
groups, I don't and as a Christian I never will. I can't.
BHN

[Elginoid]

78. you must not be a Jesus Christian then...

my apologies- when you said that you were a "christian" I naturally assumed that you meant one of the followers of the biblical Jesus, because that's the type of christianity i was raised with, and the only kind i'm familiar with.

but with beliefs such as this:

"You seem to have confused Christianity with
condoning and forgiving hatred directed at select
groups, I don't and as a Christian I never will. I can't."

it's easy to see that you're not a follower of the biblical Jesus, because nobody that was would ever claim that they could "never" forgive another human being for what they percieve as transgressions.

peace be with you....whatever your faith is.

[LanternWaste]

71. I think some may also look like...

I think some may also look like Jimmy Carter, Winston Churchill, Chief Justice Thurgood Marshall, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, Marcos Pereira Silva, Harriet Tubman, Martin Luther King, Jr., Ralph Waldo Emerson, Abraham Lincoln, Albert Schweitzer... well, I'm sure you get the idea.

Far be it from me to disparage any notions you may have about the followers and lay-adherents of any organized faith, but since tolerance and charity are not unique to the mores of the religious faithful, maybe we on DU could all try just a little harder to maintain civility during discourse and not push our political allies further away from each other.

Have a great day!

:)

[Elginoid]

72. As long as people are going to drag private religious beliefs...

into a public political forum, then every opinion on the topic deserves an equal right to be heard and shared.

[LanternWaste]

75. I have absolutely no problem...

I have absolutely no problem with a person voicing what they believe to be a valid opinion on DU, that's what it's here for. :)

I simply think that we would be stronger as a whole and much more effective if we illustrated civility and tact whilst voicing those opinions to each other.

Since we have a common enemy to be defeated in November, it seems silly to waste aggression on our own political allies. However, if you think it's a good idea engage in invectives and pejoratives, I will bow out of the thread immediately- no harm done by me. :shrug:

Have a great day!

[BeHereNow]

82. You said it perfectly.

And THAT has been my point all along in this thread.
I do not believe DU is the place to bash others for
their personal beliefs or lifestyles.
I consider calling Christianity "bullshit" a case of bashing.
It should not be tolerated.
By anyone, be they Christian, Agnostic, Gay, Asian
or Jewish. Blanket statements about a faith or
a people, based in personal bias
are akin to bigotry in my book and have no place here.
BHN

[BeHereNow]

79. IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER

I respect your right to believe as you do, and
request the same.
Calling Christianity "bullshit" does not exactly
reflect or form a friendly foundation for
mutual respect in a discussion.
It is quite hateful and inconsiderate actually,
IMHO.
BHN

[bobbyboucher]

84. Goddamn, how many times

have you hit the alert button? I cannot completely follow the thread if everything from the opposite side as you gets deleted. Stand up for your positions and quit whining to the mods.

Respect must be earned, by the way, not given on demand.

[camero]

88. It might not have been her that hit alert

A couple of posts made to me awhile back got deleted and I never hit the alert button. Sometimes others see incivility in a post and give the mods a heads-up.

The mods must have thought his/her remarks were out of bounds.

I disagree on your term of respect. It's given freely, not earned. Trust is earned.

[BeHereNow]

43. Uh, there are many DU Christians-

Something you might want to consider
before calling our faith "bullshit."
Please try to exercise some tolerance towards
people who differ from your spirituality or lack of.
You will never see a Christian on DU calling your
beliefs "bullshit."
Thanks-
BHN

[Jose Diablo]

37. A small point, but

there is no "s" in the Book of Revelation.

[lurkerguy]

66. Thank G*d someone here is well read

Quote: "The seven headed beast fortold in Revelations is the media spinning their hurricane of lies."

It just makes sense that if you are going to quote from a book you are supposedly reading then at least get the spelling of the book correct. There is not a book of "Revelations" just like there is not a book of "Marks" or a book of "Lukes". Please, if that really is your take, at least get the correct spelling of the book. You ruin your credibility when you misquote. Our side has enough to worry about without making off-the-cuff statements on subjects we seemingly know nothing about when we can't even spell the book.

[BeHereNow]

69. Thanks for pointing that out...

It is a common mistake; I wonder why?
BHN

[lurkerguy]

83. It is indeed a common mistake...

The reason is ignorance. Please don’t misunderstand, I am not calling anyone here stupid. Many just don’t know that it is the book of Revelation, singular. Hollywood in part is to blame. For example, my favorite movie is Tombstone. There is a part in the beginning where Ringo quotes from the book of “Revelations”. It seems like most movies that quote this book call it “Revelations”. When an individual’s biblical knowledge comes primarily from what they have heard in movies then this is one result, although not the only result.
Society in general contributes to this as well. People who don’t read the Bible just think that is how it is spelled or pronounced. It spawns from the same school of thought that claims the Bible says things like “G*d helps those who help themselves”. A common saying but not from the Bible. It is simply ignorance of scripture.

[chum]

38. The Bible is fiction

There is no such thing as the anti-christ. Other than that - I agree.

[GreenPartyVoter]

47. Welcome to DU.. I disagree that

the Bible is entirely fictitious. And for all the weird and hurtful stuff in it that needs to be weeded out, there is a lot of good in it as well. :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Critically examine everything. Hold on to the Good." 1 Thessalonians
5:21

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[G_j]

39. "Man Of Peace"

your post made me think of this Bob Dylan song.
I don't necessarily believe in Satan or the anti-Christ. But if they do exist Bush is at least working for them. If they don't exist, the people behind Bush are here to try to change that it seems.
--------------------
Man Of Peace, Bob Dylan

Look out your window, baby, there's a scene you'd like to catch,
The band is playing "Dixie," a man got his hand outstretched.
Could be the Fuhrer
Could be the local priest.
You know sometimes
Satan comes as a man of peace.

He got a sweet gift of gab, he got a harmonious tongue,
He knows every song of love that ever has been sung.
Good intentions can be evil,
Both hands can be full of grease.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Well, first he's in the background, then he's in the front,
Both eyes are looking like they're on a rabbit hunt.
Nobody can see through him,
No, not even the Chief of Police.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Well, he catch you when you're hoping for a glimpse of the sun,
Catch you when your troubles feel like they weigh a ton.
He could be standing next to you,
The person that you'd notice least.
I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Well, he can be fascinating, he can be dull,
He can ride down Niagara Falls in the barrels of your skull.
I can smell something cooking,
I can tell there's going to be a feast.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

He's a great humanitarian, he's a great philanthropist,
He knows just where to touch you, honey, and how you like to be kissed.
He'll put both his arms around you,
You can feel the tender touch of the beast.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Well, the howling wolf will howl tonight, the king snake will crawl,
Trees that've stood for a thousand years suddenly will fall.
Wanna get married? Do it now,
Tomorrow all activity will cease.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Somewhere Mama's weeping for her blue-eyed boy,
She's holding them little white shoes and that little broken toy
And he's following a star,
The same one them three men followed from the East.
I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.



Copyright © 1983 Special Rider Music

[Batgirl]

41. My interpretation of the Good Book

We have an emotionally unstable, runt pig named Wilbur, who was prone to "fainting" spells. Obviously Bush isn't the Antichrist -- he's Wilbur.

He is befriended by Charlotte, who is quite smart for a spider. It's quite clear from my readings that Charlotte is Auntie Rove.

The character of Templeton, the rat who's a greedy glutton and who has acquired a treasure trove of looted items -- is quite obviously Cheney. One of his items, a rotten egg (read: Halliburton), cracks open and fills the barnyard with a horrible stink.

The owners of the farm were unimpressed with the runt pig George and he was scheduled to meet his demise, but Rove got to work spinning a web with the message "Some Pig." It wasn't much, but it was enough to convice the populace that George must have been appointed by the Lord.

Charlotte begins collecting magazine clippings in order to perfect her message spinning. She, and her counterpart Rove, becomes a master of media manipulation. The next web cannily referred to the runt pig as "Terrific" . More and more people were convinced.

George worried about the competition he was going to face at the fair, knowing he faced a superior competitor -- a larger pig. No need to worry however, with Charlotte/Rove on the case. She spun the message "humble" into her web. Of course the fairgoers ate this shit up.

Even though the larger pig earned the blue ribbon, the bought and paid for election officials give Wilbur a "Special Prize," -- a medal -- which is much better than a simple ribbon and which completely negates the fact that the larger pig came in first place.

Charlotte/Rove considers this her hour of triumph, as well she should. Wilbur never would have made it without her manipulation of a gullible public.

[G_j]

42. I love it!

a real 'keeper', you ought to give this its' own thread.

[Larkspur]

64. As a former Catholic turned Pagan and Notre Dame history major...

I don't believe the Book of Revelations was a book of prophecy for out times.

Christianity was an Apocalyptic based religion. Jesus, the apostles, and the Jews of their day literally thought that the end of the world was near or at-hand. After the last apostle died and the end of the world had not happened, early Christianity, now composed mostly of Gentiles -- mainly Roman citizens--, reached a crisis of idenity. The Book of Revelations, thought to be authored by the Apostle John, who was supposedly the last apostle to die, was written around that time. Christians were still persecuted by the Roman Empire, yet Jesus wasn't seeming to return to rescue them. What was a Christian to do?

The Book of Revelations was really a metaphor for early Christianity, although, the themes in the book -- tyranny vs freedom, faith vs hyprocrsiy, hope vs despair -- are timeless.

[Zhade]

90. If the bible were true, he'd be a likely candidate!

NT!

[ronnykmarshall]

91. I don't know much about the bible

but from some of things I've read, I think you're correct.

Isn't there something about how his (Anti-Christ/Bush) followers will fry in hell?

[jackieforthedems]

92. I Agree

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/