Am I the only person on DU who thinks Kerry needs a NEW plan for Iraq?

[Quixote1818]

The country does not seem to be buying the idea of getting NATO involved. Is this just a pipe dream or can Kerry actually accomplish this? I seriously think he is going to have a lot of trouble with this and if he is having trouble convincing me then he is really going to have a hard time convincing the rest of the country. The problem is that Bush has hurt relations around the world so bad it will take years to build these bridges again. Also if I were France or Germany or ANY country I would not want to go near Iraq at this point. Now I could be completely wrong but convince me this plan is worth continuing with if most of America is not buying it. If you can convince me then perhaps Kerry should hire you to be on his campaign.

From John Kerry's Website

Winning The Peace In Iraq
More than a year ago, President Bush stood on an aircraft carrier under a banner that proclaimed "mission accomplished." But today we know that the mission is not accomplished, hostilities have not ended and our men and women in uniform stand almost alone with the target squarely on their backs.

Our military performed brilliantly in the war's first mission: ending the regime of Saddam Hussein. Today, Americans share a desire for Iraqis to live with the blessings of democracy and security. John Kerry and John Edwards have a practical plan to win the peace in Iraq and bring our troops home.

We must change course in Iraq. Having gone to war, we cannot afford to fail at peace. The United States must take immediate measures to prevent Iraq from becoming a failed state that inevitably would become a haven for terrorists and a destabilizing force in the Middle East.

John Kerry and John Edwards will forge a new policy to promote stability, democracy, protection of minority and women's rights in Iraq, and peace in the region. John Kerry and John Edwards will work to gain new military and financial commitments from other nations so America isn't carrying the burden and risk virtually alone.

John Kerry and John Edwards will make the creation of a stable and secure environment in Iraq our immediate priority in order to lay the foundations for sustainable democracy. They will:

Persuade NATO to Make the Security of Iraq one of its Global Missions and to deploy a significant portion of the force needed to secure and win the peace in Iraq. NATO participation will in turn open the door to greater international involvement from non-NATO countries.

Internationalize the Non-Iraqi Reconstruction Personnel in Iraq, to share the costs and burdens, end the continuing perception of a U.S. occupation, and help coordinate reconstruction efforts, draft the constitution and organize elections.

Launch a Massive and Accelerated Training Effort to Build Iraqi Security Forces that can provide real security for the Iraqi people, including a major role for NATO. This is not a task for America alone; we must join as a partner with other nations.

Plan for Iraq’s Future by working with our allies to forgive Iraq’s multi-billion dollar debts and by supporting the development of a new Iraqi constitution and the political arrangements needed to protect minority rights. We will also convene a regional conference with Iraq's neighbors in order to secure a pledge of respect for Iraq's borders and non-interference in Iraq’s internal affairs

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/national_security/iraq.html

[jjmalonejr]

1. France in Germany had a huge stake in the outcome in Iraq

They will come to the table, but not if Bush is sitting there.

[Quixote1818]

2. If it's that huge then they would be involved already.

I still need more convincing.

[Darranar]

14. Yes, they do, but the US has no interest in letting them...

return.

[Kellanved]

26. is that so?

Funny thing is: neither was France the Nr.1 Oil buyer, nor had Germany any significant trade with post-GW1 Iraq.

[theKnave]

54. re: "is that so?"

While France was not the largest importer of iraqi oil from the Oil-For-Food Program, they did have contracts with Iraq for 25% of the Iraqi oil reservers, controlled about 22.5% of the iraqi imports, was owed several billion dollars in debt, and was the largest arms dealer to Iraq:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm217.cfm

While France may have provided the face for the humanitarian concern, it wasn't their only concern. Just as some will argue that the US said that they wanted to invade Iraq for WMD's but really wanted the oil, it can also be argued that France said that they were concerned with Peace, but really wanted the oil.

On either side of the issue, you can say that it "was only for the oil."

[Neecy]

45. I dunno

France has a very large Muslim population, and if they were to throw their lot in with this mess they'd just be asking for massive problems at home.

I'm not wild about Kerry's stance in Iraq and never have been, but I've put that aside, like so many others have done. All I know is that the Bush record in Iraq right now is horrible, and Kerry won't go off and attack Iran or Syria next. What really scares me is what Bush would do with a 'mandate' - we saw what he did when he wasn't even elected. Scary.

[vetwife]

3. No you are not !

I was thinking today..How much it would hurt him politically to just say. Ok I fell for it. He lied.he lied to me Big time. I gave him authorization thinking we had WMD's. well I know better now. The report has been released. I am not George W. Bush I do make mistakes. He does too but won't admit them. I am human. I admit I thought I could trust my president, I couldn't. I want to withdraw troops immediately and get international troops on the ground. we will only stay until back up arrives. Then we will deal with this administraion and their lies. I mean an all out lose or all out win ! He needs to talk to we the people not we the senate on two syallable words. DUers can undersand more but Joe Six Pack can't.
plain vanilla John..Lay it out there !

[Quixote1818]

7. You and I are on the same page but I don't think that would win Kerry

the election. I am not sure the country is smart enough to realize that Iraq is a lost cause even though you and I know it is. Perhaps they would be more open to this than I think. Risky but perhaps some focus groups could help answer this question.

[NJCher]

4. no

And I think if you read hansolson's threads, you will see others who think there needs to be a new plan, too.

I just signed up to volunteer for the Kerry campaign on the weekends. But I really am only doing it because I hate bush so much. For me to really get behind Kerry, he needs to get us out of Iraq and do it NOW.


Cher

[Erika]

9. Hey, If you can't endorse Kerry

get the hell out. Truthfully, I can't fathom a person who would be on a board saying he/she can't tolerate the party's nominee but it's better than some other choice. I'm a proud democrat for Kerry and resent that others who claim to be democrats would criticize him by saying he's better than the alternative. You heard of the Biblical luke warm people?

[vetwife]

13. I am behind Kerry 100 percent..You would not believe what I do

And its not ABB. Its Kerry. I am the wife of a combat vet VN and we both support him. I donate time, money and many other things, talk shows, talk to the DNC, have friends at the DNC, but with today's report, he is going to have to address Iraq a little differently and Donna Brazille and Trippi and even Paul Begala is saying the same thing. But I am pretty sure he will.

[Quixote1818]

15. Look, Kerry's having base problems. We can alienate the base as you

seem to want to do or Kerry can learn a thing or two from the base. Right now Kerry and Bush don't seem too much different on Iraq and I can see why that does not appeal to quite a few Democrats. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the Base is right and Kerry is wrong on Iraq? Actually I think Kerry actually wants out of Iraq but is trying to play it safe to make sure he at least gets elected. Personally I think he is right to play it this way at this point but I sure hope he wises up and does the right thing when he gets into office and gets us out of that mess! I can't imagine ANY parent who would be for sending their child to Iraq to fight on one side in a Civil war. It's not our war anymore and we should listen to the parents who's children are making this sacrifice for NOTHING but a MISTAKE! As Kerry said back during Nam "Who will be the last soldier to die for a mistake?" Where is that John Kerry???? That's what we want to know? We will continue to work for Kerry but our heart is not fully in this race yet. NO person should EVER go agains their heart and support someone 100% who does not fully encoumpas his/her own personal and very sacred values of being against an unjust War. Anyone helping out the Kerry campaign who's heart is not fully on board should be commended and they should NEVER shut up about what they disagree with Kerry on. Thats supose to be the difference between Democrats and Republicans these days. We can disagree and not be afraid to speak up. Lets not muffle out the decent please.

[davhill]

27. A lot of anti-war people are getting the hell out

We did not expect Kerry to do nothing but get into a chest pounding contest with bush over who is the mightiest warrior. I was looking for a wise leader. Having NATO come in and rule Iraq is 19th century thinking. We need to get out period. I was ready to work hard for Kerry dispute his pro-war stance but it is getting harder and harder for me to get up any enthusiasm.

[theKnave]

56. re: "A lot of anti-war people..."

"Having NATO come in and rule Iraq is 19th century thinking. We need to get out period."

But, what would happen to the Iraqi civilians if we just up and leave before they have their own defensive forces? They would be prey for every fundi mob.

I'm not saying that the war is right or just, or that our troops are being used correctly. However, if we just tuck tail and run, wouldn't we be leaving the Iraqi civilians in greater harm? Do you really want to see Iraqi women subjected to the same conditions as the Taliban-era Afghani women?

[theKnave]

55. re: "no"

"For me to really get behind Kerry, he needs to get us out of Iraq and do it NOW."

But, he can't do anything like that until he's elected and sworn into office. However, it would be nice if he could tell us his plan. It could help solidify the base and bring in the important swing sheep voters.

[Emillereid]

5. No you're not the only one:

I wake up every morning hoping for a coherent, 'non-nuanced' position on Iraq as in Bring the Troops Home! We have satisfied ourselves that Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction, they are no threat to us or our security, the Iraqis want us to leave so they can begin to govern themselves, our job is done -- it's time for the troops to come home. As long as our troops are there they will be a target for the insurgents. We will ask our friends in the Arab world and NATO to supply personnel to help the Iraqi security forces get on their feet.

[GregW]

6. Yes

EOM

[TrogL]

8. Countries know Dubya is the problem

If someone coherent is in charge, other countries will sign up to help put this quagmire to bed. The US isn't the only country affected by this chaotic situation.

[Quixote1818]

11. I think they hate Bush but I also think it runs deeper than that for some

countries. A lot of Europe hates the United States and that hate goes back to even before Bush took office. I think our problems in Europe are deeper than you realize. We have our work cut out for us over their.

[paulk]

18. a lot of Europe doesn't hate the United States

What are you basing this on?

That's a pretty big statement to just toss off in one sentence.

[leesa]

10. New plan? Immediate withdrawal is the only plan worth considering

[2Design]

12. Jan 20 new plan will take place until then he won't know how

bad bush has made things

[vetwife]

16. I do worry what Bush will do in those 70 days..wouldn't put

anything past him..Scary times. and Erika..We are behind Kerry !
Where did that come from? I know these people and they know me and we all work our butts off for Kerry ! Day and night and every waking minute we are working for the campaign ! I know I am and they know I am !

[2Design]

37. I am hoping someone takes the keys on Nov 3 - someone has

to be smart enough to step up to the plate and take away his keys

[MissMarple]

17. A Plan? Out of this .... mess? The safest place out of Iraq is

right behind Kerry. And it won't be pretty because of the chaos and anarchy caused by George&Co. A general outline is doable, a plan,...no.

[Nordic]

19. It's worse than Vietnam. It's time to get our guys out

and let whatever happens happen.

We caused it, we can't stop it now, we should just get out of the way.

Anything else is a waste of money and human lives on all sides.

It's a train wreck. You can't fight a train wreck once it's started.

[MissMarple]

20. Sadly, we are responsible. We made this mess,

now we must try to clean it up. I think that's a rule, or, there's that karma thing.

[Nordic]

23. but we are fueling the insurgency

Every day that we're there creates more "mess". To clean up the "mess" we have to start by LEAVING.

[0007]

31. Bring the troops home and give the Iraqis money to fix their

country.

The Iraqis want us out! Iraq is quite capable of fixing their country and if they have a civil war, so be it! Who interfered with our civil war?

But the greedy little pigs, like Halliburton and the Carlyle Group won't let that happen until the death count reaches 10,000 or more.

[Kenneth ken]

21. there is no good way out

period.

Any sort of international coalition will seek some version of democracy, and Islamic fundamentalists will oppose that with force. Cut and run will only bring the Iraq civil war to complete, open warfare among those who want power in Iraq. Sunni vs Shiite vs Kurd vs Sunni.

This is pretty much a repeat of Afghanistan when the USSR went in there. All the Afghans united to drive them out, and as soon as they withdrew, turned on each other.

[Nordic]

24. fine. let it happen. we can't stop it anyway

Why should we keep our hand in the garbage disposal?

When our other hand is on the switch?

We are fueling the insurgency. If we leave, they'll be left to fight each other and maybe they'll find some peace that way.

It sure ain't working with us there.

I'm so SICK of people saying "there's no way out".

Of course there is. It's the same way we got out of Vietnam. We just get the hell out.

[Kenneth ken]

25. ...

too few smiley icons in your post. The tone is somewhat accusatory, but I may be misreadin that.

I didn't say there's no way out. I said there's no GOOD way out. I am in full agreement with you, excpet that I have pangs of guilt for the blood that will be shed if/when we cut and run, since we destabilized the country in the first place. Bad as it was, it was stable

no, sorry. It was bad before we invaed too; I had momentarily forgot about the no-fly zones, and sanctions. We were just killing Iraqis more slowly and with fewer bullets then.

[Nordic]

46. true, you did say no "good" way out

and you're sure right about that.

[rhite5]

33. That's the GOP argument. Don't swallow it.

[sadiesworld]

44. No, it is not a GOP argument.

It is the same argument that many of us used in opposing the war in the first place. That said, I think we should leave. But to NOW allege that the quagmire/civil war/fundamentalist regime/Turkey destabilization scenarios are the product of RW spin is disingenuous, IMO.

[Kenneth ken]

48. from what I've read

the GOP argument is to stay the course. Since that isn't at all what I said, I'm pretty sure you're wrong in saying my response is the GOP argument.

I don't see any plans being put forward by you.

[sampsonblk]

22. No more new plans, please!

He should just flesh out the current one so it sounds like it might actually work. New plans feed GOP attack machine.

[AntiFascist]

28. The plan could be fairly straightforward....

Bush and co. is allied with certain U.S. corporate interests together with the Saudi royal family. As he continues to push on with these interests, the resistance is pushing back even harder, causing damage and causing us to divert more funds towards defense. We are losing because our investment in Iraq will not pay off as long as this continues. "Democracy" will be nothing but a joke as long as 70% of Iraqis want us out.

The Saudis are probably resistant to any change because, undoubtedly, a lot of effort went into arranging the power structure along the lines of the current plan. As usual, I think any real change in this power structure will need to be handled together with the Arab League. Kerry is undoubtedly as capitalistic as the Bushies, and as willing to defend Israel, but perhaps he can bring a fresh new team of international interests with him to the table. Money talks and it is the sharing of the oil interests which will attract the cooperation of our allies. Of course we need to do more than just make promises to the Iraqis, they would need to see something tangible come out of a new plan as well.

Also, if too much interest is focused on corporate power it is likely to turn more anti-corporate folks towards Nader in the U.S. election. (BTW, anti-fascist != anti-corporate. There are good corps and there are bad corps.)

[21winner]

29. The less he says the better.

No one knows the situation there because of the lies and secrecy. Bush broke it,its his mess. The anti war crowd is hardly Kerry's base. They huffed and puffed and it failed if they are too foolish to not support him they will get what they deserve and the rest of us don't.

[greatauntoftriplets]

30. So you are pro-war?

n/t

[Disturbed]

32. The US must stay to clean up the mess?

The concept was "Winning hearts and minds." Now it is bomb them until the bow in submission. Brutal oppression won't work. Bombing the cites and creating more death, property distruction and hatred toward the US Govt. is not cleaning up the mess.

I don't believe that the Insurgency, Sunni, al Zagawi, al Sadr and severly angry Iraqis are going to welcome any foreign troops.

There is one solution. End the Occupation as quickly as possible.

Provide reconstruction money and aide to Iraqis and abolish the US Puppet Govt and the following.


The Hand-Over That Wasn't: Illegal Orders give the US a Lock on Iraq's Economy
by Antonia Juhasz

Officially, the U.S. occupation of Iraq ended on June 28, 2004. But in reality, the United States is still in charge: Not only do 138,000 troops remain to control the streets, but the "100 Orders" of L. Paul Bremer III remain to control the economy.

These little noticed orders enacted by Bremer, the now-departed head of the now-defunct Coalition Provisional Authority, go to the heart of Bush administration plans in Iraq. They lock in sweeping advantages to American firms, ensuring long-term U.S. economic advantage while guaranteeing few, if any, benefits to the Iraqi people.

The Bremer orders control every aspect of Iraqi life - from the use of car horns to the privatization of state-owned enterprises. Order No. 39 alone does no less than "transition from a … centrally planned economy to a market economy" virtually overnight and by U.S. fiat.

Although many thought that the "end" of the occupation would also mean the end of the orders, on his last day in Iraq Bremer simply transferred authority for the orders to Prime Minister Iyad Allawi - a 30-year exile with close ties to the CIA and British intelligence.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0805-07.htm

[greatauntoftriplets]

34. Me? I always said an invasion of Iraq would open Pandora's Box.

And it appears I was correct. I have always been unequivocally against the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. And I believe that we need to pull out now. We are only fueling the insurgency. Any nation who comes in at the behest of the United States will only add fuel to the fire.

Iraq is a total f#$k-up.

[vetwife]

36. I said that too and so did Gore right before we invaded !

Looks like the non Koolaid drinkers were right.

[greatauntoftriplets]

38. Well, I hate Koolaid anyway.

n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. The war is lost. Time to go.

Call it "victory". Call it "cut and run". Call it a "mistake". Call it whatever he likes. But, instead of some idiotic "plan" to continue the unwinnable war, plan to get the hell out of the Iraqis country now.

Kerry is still pussyfooting around Iraq and trying to please the right wing. And, he's losing the election because of it.

[GoldenOldie]

39. Stick with Kerry's Plan

This ME war now is more comparable to WWII than Vietnam. George W. Bush did open "Pandora's Box," when he invaded Iraq without the full support of the Nation and the rest of our Allies. After 9-11 the US had sympathy and support even from those nations that did not particularly like us. They supported our entry in to Afghanistan because it was obvious to all that is where the Taliban trained their terrorists and the Saudi 9/11 terrorists came from. When George W. Bush and his PNAC cronies disregarded the generals advice, lied to the UN and the World, he initiated the beginnings of a WWII scenario. Bush's failure to have a Plan for immediately stabilizing Iraq once Saddam was toppled created havoc and further destruction in the cities and towns. Thousands and thousands of innocent civilians , children women, grandmothers, etc., etc, killed both from terrorists and American bombs and bullets. By Bush's failure to protect the Iraqi citizens, he has created thousands more terrorists who will take out their grief and anger against those that harmed them and their loved ones.

Terrorists are now located throughout the world more so than ever before and ready to strike at any time and any place. Terrorism is no longer an isolated problem it has become a world-wide problem affecting all Nations, much like Nazi Germany. It will require Nations coming together for the good of all. Their must be mutual support and respect for each other and the peoples of these Nations must understand that it will take all of us to stand united in the face of terrorism.

This is why I feel that Kerry's plan to renew better relations with our Allies and come together to fight this battle together is the only sound plan that will be effective. We cannot do it alone and it is impossible to ask our present strength of troops to be in continual battle mode.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. The way to gain respect around the world is to get out of Iraq. Now.

The American presence in Iraq is what is causing the chaos there. The ME is becoming a clone of SE Asia in the '60s and '70s. For all the talk about "internationalizing" the conflict, or bringing in more "allies" the result will be the same. After enough bloodletting to satisfy the right wing, we'll depart and turn over the country to the surviving Iraqis. Either that, or they'll throw us out.

The war is a flop. The occupation is a flop. Kerry's "plan" to invite in "allies" by talking nice to them is naive or, more likely, politically correct double-talk. The potential allies want nothing to do with jumping into the briar patch and trying to win an unwinnable war.

The whole "Peace with Honor", "Building Democracy", crappola didn't work in SE Asia and it sure as hell won't work in the middle east.

If Kerry is serious about actually doing something about bringing peace and stability to the ME then the first thing he should do, if he manages to be president, is get out Iraq. The second, is to jettison the blind support for the Israeli repression of the Palestinians. THAT would get some respect.

[leftchick]

40. Kerry conflated Iraq and "War on Terror" when I saw him.....

I saw JK 2 weeks ago in NC. He was great until he brought up Iraq now being part of the "war on terror"!!! WTF? To say I was pissed off is an understatement! :grr:

I agree with you. He needs to flip flop for real on this issue, say he was duped by aWol* and bring the troops home!

September is turning out to be the SECOND deadliest month in Iraq so now would be an excellent time to change his tune.

We are averaging 3.11 Dead Soldiers a Day!

http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx

[doc03]

43. Exactly, the Repugs have blurred the lines between the War on Terror

and the war in Iraq with the help of the media. I have heard Kerry equate the war in Iraq with the War on Terror myself. When he was in this area he did the same thing?????????? I don't think he needs a(new plan) he just needs (a plan) for Christsake I want Kerry to win this election and he has been all over the place on Iraq I don't have a clue what his plan is.

[veracity]

41. There is NO answer..."it's a war, stupid" - so.......

What I don't understand is that NO on one the Kerry side is screaming the fact that BUSH GOT US INTO A MESS THAT HE CANNOT SOLVE. To throw the answer to Kerry is not only unfair, but totally unrealistic. The country is so unstable now that to suggest there is a magic bullet - no pun intended....is ridiculous.

What Kerry has to show is the reality of what is today's Iraq. When Bush says they're opening schools... DUH! Those schools were up and running under Saddam....without the fear of having children kidnapped - as they do now. He has to stresss the repression of the women under the new Shia rules, - in a country where women had the greatest freedom in the Moslem world. And, he has to say...without a new regime in the US...without a new president, the resentment and hatred of the US forces will grow and result in more deaths and more resistance.

He has to BLAME BUSH for this fiasco..and level with the nation that we'll only get in deeper with Bush elected in November. At least - the rest of the world will be willing to cooperate with us. AS MIGHT THE IRAQI PEOPLE THEMSELVES - if the person who caused their anguish is out of office.

Remember....this is not about terroristm....it's about an illegal invasion and occupation:
So how come we knew this long ago?

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/it_s_a_war__stupid_.html

[leftchick]

42. irony alert....

the US has bombed several of the schools that were "rebuilt" over the last few weeks. Ah well, more money for the contractors....

[faithnotgreed]

49. there is no "answer". i think pulling out now only makes things worse

in all likelihood. theres just no good answer

bush has made the all time military blunder, and worsened it by committing one after another. and even the nations that we have strongarmed or bribed to be part of our so willing coalition are leaving!

everyone in the world except bush apparently knows this thing is F****D

we would all love if our troops could come home. i just cant see the scenario where that is possible. please tell me if there is one because i would love to hear about it. i can imagine that if we pulled out soon, other countries would be forced to intervene, but thats no solution, it only gets the target *temporarily* off our backs. maybe thats the best we can hope for? i seriously dont know but if that were to happen we would be at major risk of certain nations settling the score.

of course al qaeda hates us for our policies and on some level they would love us to leave but our catastrophic (military) policies arent limited to iraq so that doesnt make us all of a sudden safer if we were to pull out from there. it may be a step but now that we have wreaked such havoc i cant imagine they would thank us for leaving soon either.
and because our policies are such a disaster in more places than just iraq then we have certainly been their best recruiting tool. they win either way, we and most of the world, definitely do not.

and i dont even know to what degree we could pull out without some other nations getting involved in the "negotiations" of our withdrawal.

i hear people on the board suggest that we pull out. or that we pull out after international troops come in. of course most everyone wants our soldiers out of that wreck. theres nothing good for us there of course, and nothing good for iraqis. theres a lot of death and bloodshed for not one even semi-legitimate reason.

but
there is no way i can see this is possible. first, i dont believe we can pull out after the torch we have lit over there. im a member of the green party and i know its criminal what has been done. this monster has done it, and theres no changing that. but i just dont think we can leave those people to fight all out war against each other, which is inevitable by leaving them in such disaster. parts of their infrastructure and economy have been decimated. many thousands civilians have been killed. you know the picture

i believe that some neighboring countries will have to intervene of course, out of survival and necessity, but i will tell you , if we want to further increase terrorism and the fuel of hatred around the (muslim) world that much more, then we will have it if we pull out of iraq to leave the tribes of iraq and other muslim nations to struggle mightily for some scraps of stability.

and then for people who want to leave after international forces are brought in? i dont believe troops are going to commit to this atrocity, most especially if we are going to leave immediately thereafter.

given that theres nothing good to come of this, i believe that kerry has it basically right. he knows that the major players of france, germany, at least, the un troops & others possibly are much more open to working with him on a solution because they and everyone know this is beyond comprehension what is going on there. and its not going to get any better. and once bush is gone we have a CHANCE of settling things down to where there wont be a possible ww3. but it will likely take our assurance that since we created this mess, that we will be around with some new players, to try to straighten things out. they wont come if they know we arent willing to stick around.

and theres not only literal survival instincts. there are major financial and balance of power aspects to consider for the others who may join in once bush is out. if bush is back in they are that much more reluctant than they would even be when kerry gets in. but at least kerry has a chance

its not good any way we look at it. but our only chance is to get kerry in, and have him work with other countries who (will) know that joining with a newly rational u.s. government is their last best hope.
i believe it can be done but only very very carefully.

my prayers are with everyone involved

now lets get out the vote! and get out bush

[Flammable Materials]

50. DIE FREEPER TROLL! (Just kidding.) n/t

[okieinpain]

51. no it's too late to change, he just needs to keep saying what he has been

saying. he needs to sell it, he needs to keep repeating it like it makes perfect sense.

[goforit]

52. The DNC and the DLC missed their chance.......DEAN!!!!!!

So may they taste the fruits of their own demise!!!!

Moderate Democrats will soon get what they want......

4 more years of BUSH!!!!!

[faithnotgreed]

53. you know what?

i love dean. the guy is just awesome but it gets us nowhere at this point in things to continue to debate who coulda woulda shoulda

now lets get out the vote for kerry and get out bush

[Massacure]

57. The situation in Iraq changes weekly, you can't have very tight "plan"

Bush is too stupid it relise this, and when Kerry does mention this he gets called a "flip-flopper."