Oldie DU'ers where are you planning on moving? I can't stay and fight.

[KoKo]

But, I don't know where to go. I don't like cold..like in Canada.

But, when Rather caves I know it's time...if one can...to get outta here.

[Individualist]

1. Don't know where I could go,

but like you Koko01, tonight when I heard Rather apologize, I thought when he's silenced it's time for those who are planning to leave the country to do so now.

[Vincardog]

3. Vote before you go.

[KoKo]

7. Yes...I will vote before I go...but I need to make plans. I don't want to

be left here like the Jews who didn't get out in Nazi Germany. I have a big mouth...it's hard for me to "blend in." I've already lost friends and family members because of Bush, so I know just like with Ann Frank's experience in Holland...I and my family would be turned in because I have an "aura" of Resistence. Folks can just tell about folks like me.

I will have to leave here. Many of you can "blend in" and go "unnoticed with a "practiced Repug...blend in ...making your subtle points and thereby you can stay to mount La RESISTANCe....But, I am not blessed with virtue of "blending." I'm tired of this and I know I can't do more...so I will have to find a place...I just am stymied as to where..

:-(

[Vincardog]

4. Vote before you go.

[prouDem]

192. I'm not going anywhere

I'm going to volunteer and vote this year, then I'm going to volunteer and vote next time, ... until I can't do either anymore.

[Eloriel]

52. Oh, please. He wasn't silenced.

It was a set up, and yes, probably Rove.

Here's why. First, Rove's history (and I apologize to DUers who have read this from me about 20 times now) --

James H. Hatfield wrote a book about George W. Bush called "Fortunate Son." He interviewed Rove and Rove confirmed Bush's cocaine use, and gave him a lot of other information.

The book gets printed and even distributed to some bookstores, and lo and behold one of those other "facts" from Rove is inaccurate. About some politican who was a Dem instead of Repug as Hatfield wrote (or vice versa). Not only that, but Rove had dug up some very nasty but true past history on Hatfield.

St. Martin's Press, which had printed the book, called back its copies and destroyed them since Hatfield's ENTIRE credibility was undermined by the double whammy on his credibility. Virtually everything ELSE in his book was no longer valid, just on the basis of the tawdry tale and his one incorrect "fact." The book was later published by Soft Skull Press, and not long after that Hatfield died, presumably of suicide (altho most DUers who know me don't trust ANY reports of "suicide" among Bush enemies and detractors).

Fast forward to the present. CBS gets wind, somehow, of these "documents." Rather said that Burkett had NOT contacted them, they CBS went after him. Rather knows the underlying story is true, all the other digging they've done over these past 4 years confirms well enough the info is true. They look authentic, their experts vouched for them, or at least well enough ESPECIALLY since the underlying story is true. They run with it.

Within 2 hours, I've read, the blogger known as Buckhead starts up his typography critique, the news EVERYWHERE picks that up with lightning speed, and little by little they all chip away at the credibility (despite some yeomen's efforts on our side of the political divide). Finally, Rather interviews Burkitt again (this past weekend), looking more closely at the provenance, and the story doesn't hold.

How did Buckhead jump on this story within 2 hours of its release? Well, we know that CBS asked the White House to comment before they went with it. We also know that Buckhead is a Repug operative and contributor, a lawyer who does work for the Southeastern Legal Foundation (similar to Larry Klayman's organization except totally conservative -- they fight to overturn affirmative action laws, etc.).

Another factor: Burkitt maybe didn't contact CBS, but he IS a Dem and did contact the Kerry campaign. According to Burkitt, he finally talked to Cleland but didn't get a call back after that.

Did someone from the Kerry campaign tip off CBS? We don't know. Of course, Burkitt was a commander in the TANG, so eventually someone, somewhere was likely to talk to him if they were seriously researching this story, so it IS possible that CBS contacted Burkitt on their own.

Where did Burkitt get the memos? He won't say (and apparently lied to CBS about it when they pressured him once all this blew up), but Burkitt insists he didn't forge them.

I think Rove, via some other 3rd party, planted them with Burkitt possibly even YEARS ago, in a similar sting to the one he ran with Hatfield. I would NEVER have suspected Rove had there not been this previous history with Hatfield.

And I think some blogger ought to write about this.

Anyway, CBS was set up. Now THEIR credibility including Dan Rather's is in the toilet. They are going to have a difficult time convincing anyone anywhere for a long, long time that they've got the goods if they run across other magnificent documents on any subject at all.

They were had. They probably should've done a much better investigative job.

[Pallas180]

74. What if the secretary reconstructed what Killian had told her & gave it to

Burkett?

I dont think Dan is through with this yet....

and I dont think it was Rove. Rove would never go that close to the truth..

Credibility? I's still believe Dan Rather and 60 minutes. How bout you?

[Zhade]

92. "And I think some blogger ought to write about this."

You just did.

Would you mind if I linked to this on my blog? It's great stuff!

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[SOS]

135. Rove and his mentor Donald Segretti

have a long history of using faked documents, planted info and false accusations.
The following aren't located on Fantasy Island:

Muskie 1972 - a Segretti job
Lafeyette Park CD-ROM
McCain 2000
Tom Harkin smear job
Mark White (TX Governor candidate) phony bug story
Gore video
Cynthia McKinney smear job

[gordianot]

191. USA Today

Do not forget USA Today is also playing this story the same time frame as CBS.

[Shoeempress]

2. Check out Vancouver. Very temperate climate, gorgeous city, right on the

water. I visited there and we actually discussed moving there before Chimpy came to power.

[zappaman]

22. what a coincidence, shoeempress

Just had lunch with a friend and discussed the exact same thing. His sons are nearing draft age and he and his whole family just recently checked out Vancouver and loved it. A beautiful piece of country!

[Doctor_J]

59. that's where we're headed

hopefully. Thre are 4 jobs in the Vancouver area that I can apply for. We have a fair sum of money stashed away, and Mrs. TOJ score pretty high on the Canadian immigation survey (can't find the link).

i live in chicago and have for 50 years or so, so the weather won't pose any problems. Plus we are looking for a little adventure.

IMO the end of the empire will come hard and soon. I was around for the civil rights movement, VN, nixon, and i don't want to spend my golden years living in fascism. the fact that smirky will get 50,000,000 votes in november is evidence of late-stage cancer of the greatest empire in history. i don't knwo which is the worst - his incompetence, his ignorance, or his corruption. Combining his truly malevolent regime with the complete takeover of the media, and this simply cannot last very long.

[madmax]

5. I'm thinking about it, also.

Or maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis. I think not.

A while back I bought a book about living in Costa Rica. I don't know. Canada appeals to me for many reasons except for the cold. Maybe we should just hang tight for now.

Sometimes I think this is what it felt like to be a Jew in Germany in the 40's. You know you should leave but, it's such a huge decision. I guess they kept thinking, how much worse can it get. Until it was too late.

[theKnave]

8. Emigrating to Costa Rica...

Requires USD$50,000 for investment into the country. A friend of mine is moving there (his wife grew up there, and her family still lives there) for a few years. No, it's not election related. ;-)

When he and his wife married, they agreed to live in the US for a while. She's now naturalized, so they are moving down there for a while. She's expecting their second child any day now, so she has already moved down with their other children (one together, one of his from a previous relationship). The baby will be born in Costa Rica, so s/he will have dual citizenship, and it will be easier for them to travel back and forth.

However, when they were first looking to move, over a year ago, they found out that in order to receive permanent residenct status in Costa Rica, you have to bring USD$50,000 with you. This isn't a bribe, and doesn't go to the government. You just have to put it into the bank, and hopefully (for Costa Rica) invest it into local businesses. At least, that's my understanding of the situation. My friend is planning on openning a steakhouse restaurant.

[madmax]

9. I would sell my house so I could put the 50k

in the bank or whatever they want as long as I get to keep it, lol. The thing that turned me off was the price of buying furnishings and the hassle to get them. Seems a bit daunting according to the book I have. And real estate isn't that cheap, either.

I just don't think I'm cut out for that much of a laid back life-style. Please, God let Kerry win. I'm too old for this :evilgrin:

[theKnave]

11. re: "I would sell my house so I could put the 50k"

That's pretty much what they are doing.

[bushalert]

40. SORRY GRINGOS

We are not very welcome anywhere!!!! Not Spain, Costa Rica, France....NOT EVEN CANADA

[arcos]

46. Yes, you are welcome here in Costa Rica...

At least by most of the people.

[ripplingwater]

72. I'm not really considering leaving

but what sort of price ranges does one see there? What's the cost of living like? Climate?

[ilovenicepeople]

77. and your welcome here in Canada

fellow DUers Welcome to Vancouver island.:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[TommyO]

127. I was thinking that myself...

Find a nice guy up in Toronto and marry him (now that same-sex marriage is pretty much the deal up there)!

[Swamp Rat]

91. ¡Pura vida!

Me falta Costa Rica muy mucho (San Ramón, San José, Puntarenas, y especialmente Guanacaste), pero quero vivir lá no Brasil. É porque as meninas Brasileiras (me gusta Ticas también) e a música, como o chôro e o forró que eu gosto. Pues, tengo muchos amigos en Costa Rica entonces peudo vivir aí... probalmente cerca de Alajuela o Irazú.

[arcos]

101. pura vida!

Es bueno encontrarse a alguien más que ha estado por acá!

¿Viviste en Costa Rica?

[Swamp Rat]

104. Sí, vea el posto #103.

Este es el primero vez que estoy escribiendo y hablando el español hace mucho tiempo. Estoy acostombrado hablar o portugües agora.

[tuvor]

90. DUers are definitely welcome in Canada!

Just don't let the freepers tag along.

In Nelson, BC, they're erecting a monument to the Vietnam draft dogers.

Vancouver Island's pretty nice, too.

Hi from Courtenay, BC!

[fudge stripe cookays]

123. Where have you traveled recently?

It's our government they hate. The citizens in most places are still quite warm to Americans and understand what we're up against.

Those of us that are liberal and explain to them all we've been doing are welcomed with open arms. I travel to Canada frequently, and have never had a rude word.

FSC

[KoKo]

12. I hear good things about Costa Rico...a business friend has family there

and says it's great. I always looked on it as a "Banana Republic" and discounted it. I worry about Bushies there involved with CIA destabilizing SA and Mexico...when they've finished with the American Continent..but at least one might get a few years out of Costa Rico without "hurricanes & Bushies?"

I'll check it out. Thanks.

[arcos]

50. we have no hurricanes...

once in a while one gets nearby, but we've never had a direct hit. :hi:

[shanti]

67. no hurricanes

but poisonous snakes and "beef worms"! that's enough to keep me out of central america! :scared:

[KoKo]

69. What about Cockroaches...I'm deathly afraid of them. Don't they have

those "hissing ones?" :scared:

[LosinIt]

98. don't know about hissing, but I saw them up to 3 inches long

yikes.

[shanti]

155. never heard of them in CA

aren't they from madagascar?

[Digit]

169. Me, too! I would have heart failure!

:scared:

[arcos]

71. hrmm, I've never seen a poisonous snake outside of the zoo...

and I don't know anyone who has been a victim of a beef worm... :shrug:

Unless you live in very remote and rural areas, I don't think you have anything to fear.

[Swamp Rat]

94. Pues, yo he visto la rana roja en el bosque lluvioso...

Creo que no hay más (son extinto) esta rana y el sapo dorado, pero cuándo fui buseando cerca del Proyecto Papagayo, he visto muchos de los tiburones (cabeza Martilla)... ¡Pero vale la pena busear para el cambute!

[arcos]

102. No se sabe si las ranas doradas están extintas...

Primero se suponía que sí, pero luego unos científicos se encontraron unas en el bosque. Es posible que sí lo estén, pero sino, realmente quedan muy pocas.

[Swamp Rat]

103. Es una lástima. Son muy "boniticos."

He visto la rana roja en Carrillio Barrillio (spelling?) en 1993 y muchas cosas en Manuel Antonio... descúlpame si el español es muy mal (viví en Costa Rica y hize estudios el la Universidad de Costa Rica en San Ramón y yo estaba casado con una Guanecasteca para 5 años), pero después que vivir no Brasil, é mais facil falar e escrever em portugües. No sé que está passando... necessito bocas y cervezas para un mes, yo creo... pejiballe con mayonesa, gallopinto, e una Imperial.... y el café... :cry:

[arcos]

163. tu español no es malo...

Se te entiende muy bien, especialmente para tener tanto tiempo de no practicarlo!

Qué estuviste estudiando?

[Swamp Rat]

195. Darío, Borjes, Neruda Y Ticos también como

Anacristina Rossi, "La loca de Gandoca." :D

... Me falta Rún Centenário...

Ahora estoy tomando un doctorado en estudios urbanos (anthopology+sociology, quantitative and qualitative methodology)... me falta al gallopinto se le arrima un huevo picado con cebolla...:9

[shanti]

156. well, there are several sites

online about beef worms (fly bots). i know, i looked them up and saw the photos and that's enough for me! the tropics has lots of mosquitos which is how the infestation is started, from a mosquito bite.

i've seen rattlers personally, but their bites generally aren't fatal, especially in suburban areas, with easy access to medical care. however, the snakes i'm referring to in central america, coral snakes and fer de lance are the main ones, are VERY poisonous AND the fer de lance is also aggressive. i don't even want to know they're close by!:-(

[arcos]

161. again, I think you're scared for nothing at all...

unless you are planning to live in very remote areas, neither beef worms nor poisonous snakes are common or a widespread problem.

I've lived here all my life, and as I said, I don't know anyone who's ever had a problem with beef worms or snakes.

[Swamp Rat]

93. ¿Y los vulcanos?

... como Arenal? Las piedras rojas son muy bonita por noche pero no me gusta los temblores de tierra. :scared:

[seventhson]

212. No = Remember Costa Rica won Nobel Prize: No standing army

best environmental record in the western hemisphere in terms of preserving the rainforests.

BEAUTIFUL National Park system.

Monteverde Cloud Forest where you can go look for the wild Quetzal (bird) , Toucans, troops and troops of howler, squirrel and capuchin monkees. Iguanas all over the place guzzling mangoes and pineapples and avocados and burping out the seeds.

Caribbean and Pacific Coasts are only a few hours drive apart. People in Cahuita and Eastern Costa Rica speak English (lots of Jamaican immigrants for the coffee plantations for many generations).

Black Volcanic Sand beaches.


Volcanoes.

Great University city in Alajuela (near San Jose).

WONDERFUL people. VERY civilized and also kind of European/Spanish architecture and very "old-worldy". People are activists and had little tolerance for the NordAmericanos supporting the contras -- but were so liberal that some baddies got away with too much since they were left alone (though ultimately busted by the government who wanted neutrality).


Me and my wife stayed at a little place near Manuel Antonio National Parque (SW on the Pacific side) called Plinio's where we saw three-toed sloths (close up too). toucans and peccaries in the wild. Hung out in our hammocks on the deck outside our room near the bar where they served fresh seafood "a la planka" (smoked on caribbean wood kinda like hickory over an open fire), and fresh fruit (pineapple, mango, papaya, strawberry guava, aguacate) and cheese and espresso and cuban bread for breakfast. About a half mile in the mountains up from the wild Pacific.

I would go there in a heartbeat if I had fifty grand and enough money to rent a place and work.

I would probably go to Canada first, though, because I am not ready to make my kids learn a new language and totally leave more than a roadtrip away from their friends..

[LosinIt]

95. There are two way to emigrate to CR, have a retirement of >$1000/month

or invest $50K in a preferred project (environmental or farming) or invest I think $250K in a project of your choosing.

[KoKo]

24. yes...that's the delemna...but the Rather thing was the "last straw," in

my "back pocket" hope.

I know I should leave...I've already lost so much support except here on DU...so when is the "tipping point?"

I'm not a 20 or 30 Something waiting for the fight...I have to think of my future and my family's future.

I do think it was like this in Nazi Germany. Do you stay and wait for it to "blow over," with a new person in power, or do you realize it's gone past that point and you will need others to come in and save your country.

GEEZE! I'm so centered and average...but I was raised believing in the Constitution of America and "Checks and Balances" where we would NEVER have another KING GEORGE!

I am so freakin' ordinary but now I'm like an "Anarchist/Anti-American threat to my old friends of more than 15 years and my family I've had for life.

Do I see what's real or do they...I can't take that chance, and need to plan.. I do NOT want to live through the 1940's ...NO WAY!

[ulysses]

6. send us a postcard

from wherever.

[KoKo]

14. I'll do better than that! I'll have a DU Houseparty! I'm very social as

long as the folks I invite are sympatico with ideals...

[ClintonTyree]

10. Canada is looking pretty good.......................

I live in Upstate New York so the weather in Ontario wouldn't be that much different. I think I'd rather watch the destruction of the United States from the North than being amid it.

Many will say, "stay and fight". I'm too damn old and tired to keep fighting these bastards. For me, the battle is over.

[ulysses]

17. would that

conservatives had moved out in the 60s, having decided that they were too tired, instead of developing a long-range plan like they did.

[Minstrel Boy]

35. Now there's an interesting observation.

I'm grateful, as a Canadian, for the influx of American leftists in the 60s and 70s. But it didn't exactly help the US.

[ulysses]

41. you see my point.

Canada doesn't need the help. We do.

Normally, I wouldn't be annoyed at the chicken little stuff, etc. But it's been a long day working with kids who could no more emigrate to save themselves than I can take wing and fly, and I find this (evidently) irresistable urge to flee damning on the part of the American left.

[The Traveler]

96. "Though we are not that strength"

"that once moved heaven and earth, and strove with gods ..."

Fuck it. Ya wanna live forever? No matter what ... let's stand and speak and fight. And if we are taken down, then we shall go down in good company.

[fudge stripe cookays]

125. It's very easy to say that

when you don't know others' circumstances.

Those who have children of draftable age they want to remove from this morass.

Those who want NO MORE of their tax money going to fund the morass.

While I admire your spunk and your fervor for staying and fighting, not all of us can do this for whatever reason.

I am married to a Canadian. His only "crime" was that he moved here to be with me because we were in love. If anything happened to him because of me, I could not live with myself.

And the older folks.... I completely understand them not wanting to die under a fascist boot. They've lived through this kind of crap before. They deserve some peace.

Your constant snarky remarks are not helping anyone.

Even many of the Jews in Germany saw the writing on the wall and got out. Do we begrudge Einstein, Chagall, or many of the others their escape? No...they remained alive to share their brilliance with us for a much longer period.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop judging people so harshly. You have not walked a mile in their shoes.

FSC

[democratreformed]

132. Tax money...

I'm afraid you won't be able to get away from that one. I remember reading that you have to pay U.S. income taxes for ten years after you move. Anyone else read or hear about this? Did I misunderstand?

[fudge stripe cookays]

136. I have not heard that in any of my checking,

and I have friends who are expats.

The only thing I know is that you cannot renounce your citizenship to avoid paying taxes. Because the government will assume that's why you are doing it, and refuse to recognize your renunciation.

If you simply become a permanent resident of Canada, you do not have to pay taxes to America because you are paying Canadian ones.

reprehensor did the reverse when he moved here. He simply paid taxes for the last year he lived in Canada. Now he and I have a combined account here.

[democratreformed]

139. Okay, thanks for the info.

Wish I could remember what I read that made me think that. Maybe they were just talking about passing something that would make that a law.

[fudge stripe cookays]

140. What better way

to screw those of us considering leaving, than contiuing to reap our tax money for their crusade?

Fuckers. I wouldn't put it past them at all.

FSC

[democratreformed]

145. Link to info

http://www.taxmeless.com/page4.html

US TAXATION OF AMERICANS LIVING ABROAD


by Don D. Nelson, Attorney at Law, CPA.








Your U.S. Income Tax Obligation While Living Abroad





As a U.S. expatriate residing in abroad, you still owe U.S. taxes each year on your worldwide income! The stories you hear from the fellow American expatriate sitting next to you at the bar that once you leave the U.S., you no longer owe any taxes or have to file tax returns , are about as true as most bar room tales. Its against the law to give up your U.S. citizenship in order to avoid U.S. taxes! Therefore, if you aren't filing your U.S. tax return, the statute of limitations on tax collections will not run out and your tax return obligation only grows greater as each year passes.

[ulysses]

209. mea culpa.

For all the similarities on the surface, this is not Nazi Germany, in a great variety of ways. It's simply not. I think people making plans to leave the country, at this stage in the game, is a wild overreaction and takes energy away from the fight, especially when there *is* no stated motive such as saving a child from military service - a motive, by the way, with which I couldn't argue.

But what do I know? You folks enjoy things wherever you wind up.

[Carolina]

130. I agree except

it took upwards of 30 years for them to get where they are, to snatch power in all 3 branches of gov't and to consolidate a media propaganda arm. They are dangerous and deadly, and they play dirty and for keeps.

I DON'T HAVE 30 MORE YEARS. I likely won't live to see the change we so desperately need and seek. And like KoKo, I see Nazi Germany written all over this only it's liberals and dissenters who'll be rounded up for a final solution.

Everyday, I ponder leaving but inertia about all that moving entails especially to another country overwhelms me. So I have other thoughts which I dare not print but does the word insurgency strike a chord with anyone?!

[NashVegas]

13. I'm Staying Right Here in the Bible Belt

Buddy, I have a front row seat for all the hijinks.

[yardwork]

66. Sitting right next to you!

These idiots are not going to run me out of my country. No way.

[RebelOne]

116. I'll be staying here, too.

Georgia, that is.

[DrWeird]

15. If things get bad I'll head to BC.

It's really not that cold. Vancouver only gets snow a few days out of the year. A bit rainy but very mild overall.

[HFishbine]

16. A little premautre, don't you think?

Can't hang with us for a few more weeks?

[Malva Zebrina]

18. we have discussed moving to Canada if Bush is elected.

Living in Maine we are used to the cold and actually like it as we are acclimated to this climate and do not feel well in oppressive heat of the more southern located climates.

I will not live under this evil man nor lend my name to any more of his evil fascism and killing. Since we are seniors, the idea of fighting in any way shape or form via a revolution is kind of silly because we do not have the stamina. If, that is, the people in 'America would even consider a revolution--their complacency in the last presidential election was horrific and the complacency of the Democrats in Congress--likewise and it simply, in all it's complacency, drifted over to the 2002 electons also. We are now left in the fight of our political lives to try to rescue our country from fascism, and given the mess over the last four years, it should not be. To this day, we cannot understand how this happened. We are agast that we have suffered through these years under this spoiled little bully boy,Bush without a single opposition offered to his evil policies from virtually anyone. We do not like being jerked around like this.

What defense do we have if Bush is elected? If the congress is so selfishly complacent seeking to preserve themself and their careers rather than the Constitution ,if the judiciary is also collabarative and is virtually unassailable by the people or held accountable by the people, and the military is under the control of Bush, what else it there to do but flee because for sure there will be tyranny, given the record of the past four years. We do not have missiles, planes or tanks or helicopters, guns or even a slingshot with which to revolt against this overwhelming , but evil, tyrannical power should Bush be elected.

I will not lend my name to continuous slaughter of innocent human beings for mere profit and power of the little prick of a priveledged ignorant and stupid incompetant twit, his Stepford, air head, also a twit, botoxed, chain smoking, manufactured wife, and vacant minded, law breaking, bordello dressing, spoiled, slutty and silly dumb daughters.

My family has been landed in this country since the early seventeenth century and were active yeoman and fighters , on the historical record as assisting in the American revolution. If it were today, they surely would not support this fascism.

Some loyalists did flee to Canada and that is where I will head also. Been there many times and love the country and the people there.

[sweetheart]

129. it pains to read what you say

I've forgotten the intensity of that sadness, being outside.
Dogs are running in the field.
Rolling and playing,
scratching with the satisfaction
that only a dog can somehow
feel at the bliss of a good scratch
totally consuming, innocent of political sadness

Little purile children have
hyjakked a nation i once thought
was an adult.
It is utterly shocking.
I am really at a loss for words.
Wars, mass murder, really no shit,
formenting anarchy and civil war
and horribly endangering any future
the once-great republic ever had
at being nobly regarded
or leading from the front
rather than the bottom
with total disregard for the universal human rights
for which it once lead the world in creating
a universe ago in 1948
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Ireland looks good. So does Spain.

[KoKo]

30. My ancestors came from England, France, Ireland. Time to go back?

France is about it...because with Blair tied to Chimp I don't see emigration back to where we all came from in my family as an answer since he's "joined at the hip in Empire" but I'm not sure about France as an alternative either...

Bush/America's endless WAR puts all of Europe in Peril. Either the terrorists start going after Blair..or our imploding economy gets all of Europe.

I'm very gloomy...too much so, maybe..but I think not..

[papau]

20. South of France, Greek Islands, Australia, many good choices!

:-)

[aebrain]

109. Australia?

Given that Australian PM John Howard and Opposition leader Mark Latham got into a p*ssing contest on TV to see who was tougher on terrorism, I don't think so.

No Bill of Rights here (apart from Queen Anne's , from the 17th century, ie pre-US Revolution) and much tighter libel laws. Say Bad Things about politicians here, and you can go to jail. In theory.
Voting is also compulsory.

I won't give my political opinions, as they would not be helpful and might offend.

John Howard was in Washington on 9/11, and has been very chummy with Bush ever since. About midway between Bush and Blair in the political spectrum.

On the other hand, Bob Brown of the Australian Greens should be Progressive enough for anyone.

[papau]

126. I like the country = If one can swim with "freshes" one should have no

problem replacing Howard!

My problem is that I can not tell fresh from Salt, so I am at the mercy of the native population!

Beautiful country in any case!

:-)

[sweetheart]

21. You're welcome to come check out scotland

There are some hurdles to jump to immigrate, but nothing next
to the horrorshow.

PM me if you are serious about checking it out, and i'll hook you up.

The temperature is temperate... hardly gets below freezing in the
coldest winter... minimal snow... spring arrives much earlier than
in most of america.... education is excellent and english is the
language...!

check out immigrating on www.scotland.gov.uk THere are some links
about university degress and staying on... bottom line, the scottish
executive (government) needs immigrants who want to make a healthy
life in a healthy country with a declining population.

best of luck to you koko01,
-s

[SomthingsGotaGive]

28. My Mother lives in Edinburgh and feels the same way I do here in Canada.

Scotland is truly Gods country.

I would recommend Scotland to anybody looking to settle down and start living life.

[G_j]

32. some of my ancestors are from Scotland

I've always wanted to visit that country. How welcome would a poor musician/artist in his fifties be?

[SomthingsGotaGive]

38. Even the English are welcome in Scotland....

And they invaded several times.
I'm sure you will receive the warmest welcome you could imagine.

[sweetheart]

43. the highland clearances helped create america...

and now there is a need for reverse immigration to re-populate.

I can't say specifics... age older is harder, needless to say, and
perhaps for some, just getting out of USA for 4 years or so, is all
that is really what they want.... and in that case, timing a
nice nifty university stint to coincide with 2005 coudn't hurt
a bit! ;-)

PM me global justice, and heck anyone who wants on DU, PM if you
visit scotland and i'll do what i can.

peace,
-s

[drfemoe]

39. hmm

I was going to say, I won't be leaving at all. Until I saw your post. Nice to have an interesting option. Thanks!

Still, I believe my destiny is in the good 'ole USofA.

[Obamarama]

42. I am not finding anything specifically addressing immigration at the site

Are you able to point us to something more specific. I did a search, and looked for an Office of Immigration but had no luck.

Thanks!

[sweetheart]

47. Its on the right margin

The trick, if there is such a thing, is to get in to a university
programme. This will allow you to migrate and get settled with the
assisance of a helpful and wholly positive school support, and when
you graduate, you can stay on and become a citizen if you wish.

http://www.scotlandistheplace.com/stitp/sco_display.jsp?pContentID=462&Submit=%20&p_service=Content.show&

[TreasonousBastard]

53. I agree with that newbie who says...

Scotland is God's country.

Having lived in Germany and found some marvelous places to settle in Italy and France, I'd have to say that Scotland is the one place that I almost immediately felt at home in.

Haven't been to Ireland, but hear that's a very comfortable place, too.

Language isn't that much of a problem in most of Europe, since there are any number of expat communities with English as the lingua franca, but they tend to be a bit expensive in some areas. And, some countries, like Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Spain, I'd just rather visit than live in.

Ryanair makes it real easy to visit.

[Djinn]

75. temperate??

I'm Scottish (have lived in Australia though for most of my lief) and I love the place but it's so not temperate, last time I was back it was in Summer and I never took my jumper off. Scotland has many things that make it a great place to live - the weather (the rain and grey skies not just the cold) isn't the best selling point! ;)

[sweetheart]

105. Yes you get used to that

The weather is temperate only when compared to canada and most of
the US... leave out florida, even texas has colder winters! :-)

Its most like seattle weather... rain rain, very clean air, and
the cost, gray skies. No hurricaines. Very mild winters and lotsa
green green springs and gardens. As scotland's coastline is
absolutely massive, most living places are close to ocean, and that
makes them temperate... like coastal oregon.

Honestly, after living all over the US, i find scotland very nice,
and have no complaints about cold.... my only serious complaint is
the dark winters. At this latitude in north america, there are
polar bears and sea ice in the hudson bay.

If weather is cramping your style, australia/nz are the places for you.
If political refuge is your need, scotland can be a dandy if canada
is too cold and you don't speak another language.

[KoKo]

142. How do you deal with the Winters. Dark and cold...? (n/t)

[sweetheart]

153. silly story

I've designed and built over the past year a special light room

with huge windows facing the rugged ocean and a ceiling with

6 downlight light edison-screw fixtures. These i will put a mixture
of screw in bulbs, namely mains-halogen and sun-spectrum. It is
the hubris of architecture to build a warm tropical beach room
with a massive windows on to the north arctic coastline.

2. That houses are poorly oriented for solar energy and winter light
is the tragic folly of scottish architecture. WIth a newbuild, i'll
orient the house towards the south so that even at low-angles, the
sun creates a full-light feeling. The use of natural rooflight
to overcome SAD is totally unexplored, IMO in architecture.

I intend a house built to the actual solar orbits, so that in
darkest days, it is most lit, and in the 22 hour days, it shelters
more. Also, i'll have a large light source in the center of the
open middle of the house, so that from an artificial sun can make
the winter days slightly longer.

I'm a firm believer in technology and its merits. SAD is in my
sights... after a few years of trying various sunlamps.

[KoKo]

172. Thanks...I'm a big believer in orienting houses to take advantage of

the best sunlight throughout the year. I can't stand a dark house and probably do suffer from a touch of SAD...my Dad couldn't stand anything dark and spent as much time outside as he could.

I've noticed lately I can't stand to not be in the Sun...(could be a psycho reaction to Bush...or impending SAD's..I don't know) but Sun orientation of dwelling is a BIG issue to me.

I gravitate towards places that aren't cold...mostly because I need to be around sun, but also I like the ambiance of beaches and warm weather.

I don't like the thought of being isolated in a cold place where I have to be indoors all the time.

That's why I asked you. Your solution is very interesting. How to make a "cold view of a beach" more inticing by using light to camoflage your climate. Pretent you are in Hawaii using lights...

Might be a solution. Thanks!

[sweetheart]

182. In scotland its the animals as well

I think what balances the cold, is that it is a perfect climate for
the dogs, and that they are in scottish terrier heaven, they
keep me going in and out for pack reasons, barking at various
animals, tourists and the postman. Most of the folks i know have
several dogs, and the dogs compell you to walk around and get tactile
outdoors, as somehow their animus linkage to the earth compells
my own feeling of that root oneness. Then they all appear as dragons
in a very wise landscape of flaming golden spheres.

[Djinn]

170. I'm in Australia

not even warm enough HERE for my liking (in Melbourne) but then I'm a big girl's blouse when it comes to the cold!

[alilenas]

213. The UK is good, and possible

There are several visas you can enter the UK with. The best is under the Skilled Migrant Programme which works pretty well if you've got a lot of academic credentials, not so well otherwise. I like the e-book How to Arrive and Thrive in the UK (www.ukimmigrate.co.uk). I didn't write it and have nothing to do with it but found it great preparation for actually making the move. (And from my point of view pretty accurate, the section on bank accounts is so realistic.)

I've thought about going back to the UK again and would if I needed to to save my kids. I'd sort of rather stay here and be annoying though until that gets too dangerous. Hopefully it won't.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

23. I have an extra room in a condo by the waterfront in Toronto.

And own a small biz. I would be happy to provide refuge for any person wishing to avoid an immoral draft for an immoral war.

I'm sure I could think of a reason I need to hire an American (one of the requirements).

I know lots of people here willing to give up space and luxury to help out our American neibours in trouble.(you have to learn Canadian spelling though)

[KoKo]

26. Thank you...PM me .. I've got a hubby working on Canadian connections

but as I said...it's cold. Toronto is near some family of ours, though...maybe we should reconsider Canada. I know they have put lots more restrictions on immigrants today...not like the 60's. :shrug:

[SomthingsGotaGive]

36. Not enough posts to PM but...

The restrictions are a smoke screen if you really want to be here you still can.

There is NO immigration service hunting for Americans. We have several AWOL troops that have been here for a while and only made themselves know to authorities when they saw sympathetic results to immigration/refugee claims by other marines.

We will not permit Storm troopers rounding up deserters to send them off to their deaths. Thats a promise from several Canadian patriots I know.

[Pallas180]

79. SomethingsGotaGive - what a lovely heart you have - and to know that

the Canadians are protecting Americans from being sent off - I am so

moved.

Thank you Canadians.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

25. Can't we all just move to California and secede from the nation?

Or how about New Mexico... They tried to secede from the U.S. before....

[faithnotgreed]

27. dear koko - im not an oldie duer but i sure am sorry just the same

that youre feeling like this. i dont blame you certainly, just very sorry that youre feeling the things you are

i believe were going to do this. what im about to say here is not directed to you. you are saying that you cannot stay so this is directed to others incl myself:
as a duer from france said yesterday to someones question about moving to france: he said please dont move here. the world needs you to stay there and fight for the goodness and democracy that IS america. for those of you who care so deeply that you are part of this democratic underground, you are the people we need to stay there and not let it be completely overtaken by this or other like administrations

for me, i dont fit in either. among other things, im christian, green party, into alternative medicine and open transparent truthful govt. i dont "combine" right even within my family. but i see the possibilities since being a part of this great group of people on du (even if some would rather fight amongst ourselves sometimes, i still know that ultimately they want much of the same things as we all do)

i see countless examples of whats really possible now that we know the evil were dealing with.
just one crucial example: howard dean has gotten heavily involved to get good people into govt all across the country and have raised staggering sums of money and gotten staggering amounts of volunteers to put the right and decent people into office. we havent had that before, its unprecedented.

theres wesley clark and all the rest, i dont have to tell you
and im sure youre especially concerned about the media. we all are and should be. but we can be a voice for change for that too. there are literally millions of us who believe that we must fight for our nation and for our future, and will if need be.

for me, im fighting the good fight. and if hell or high water comes, i am going down swinging.

i wish you so very much on your new journey should you leave the country. i wish you peace and goodness wherever you may go.
you will be missed.

[KoKo]

33. faithnotgreed , thanks for your reply....I've fought hard against

the Bushies and what we are going through. If I had strong family with guns I'd go up into the NC Mountains and hide out until I could be with a "militia" to go after Bush.

I come from long line of fighters...Civil War/Revolutionary War... and England...But this time..it's too much.

Been here on DU fighting against this "junta" since the selection and fighting all my life against this crap from Viet Nam protests, etc.

I have to think of "quality of life" and leaving the fight to those who are behind me..tired.

[faithnotgreed]

56. i fully believe that you have fought well koko. i can also understand

that you are tired and world weary. no one should blame you for these feelings. this is a thoroughly corrupt group and they have shown their tentacles to be quite long.

may i ask if kerry wins would you still want to leave? just curious how youre seeing this. and sorry if this has already been asked/answered

again, im sorry you feel so tired that you need to leave. i can imagine thats what is the most disheartening part .... if there is such a thing

God bless you wherever you are led to go so you may find some peace.

[KoKo]

61. I want Kerry to win, but have doubts about our economic foundations

holding up. And, what's left of the country even with Kerry. The RW won't let up, they will go after Kerry just as they did with Clinton. Lots of Cable laughing and yucking it up about Kerry and Gingrich and PNAC on 24/7 saying how Kerry has screwed up even before he takes office and when he does they will attack night and day.

Unless Kerry comes in and immediately orders "Special Prosecutor to Investigate why we Invaded Iraq and all the other Bush Crimes including finding and realeasing Cheney's Energy Meetings, I think it will be 4 years of what we had with Clinton in his last days and more of the last years with Bush with biased media.

I'll give it until the Spring, because it will take that long to get my stuff in order here and my house on the market. But, I think March is when we make our move.

I'm just too sick of it. Want a place without all this hate and greed and lack of caring for each other.

[democratreformed]

134. We need a leader...

and organization. Where can I look? Any good organizations or leaders who are active? I know the most common ones (moveon, ACT, etc) - but are there others - perhaps even more active ones?

Maybe I am just in the wrong state (Arkansas) or wrong area of the state, but I don't see any real activity here. I would have to travel 300 miles or more to go to an anti-war demonstration.

[BrotherBuzz]

29. I'm going to stay slug it out...

but my ten-yer-old son has been offered a safe haven by my (exchange student) brother at his undisclosed overseas location if it gets to that. With my son out of the equation, I will have a renewed vigor to fight the enemy within. I don't give up easily when the cause is worth fighting!

[jcappy]

31. Au Canada???

How hard is it to settle there? Does health insurance kick in?

In lieu of Quebec, I have considered right next to the border, where i could kind of entertain a dual citizenship. Dream of biking back and forth as me emotions suggest (thinking of the rural areas near Native territory).

Tired of fighting--like so many.

[Rowdyboy]

34. No place to go, and my partner will never give up this old house...

Guess we'll be here 'til they put us on trucks headed to the concentration camps.

[KoKo]

51. Maybe you've created a "peaceful island" for yourself where you are...I

wish that I could have found that place..and I know you are in a conservative area..but, it's good you've found "your spot" to stay and fight...I wish I had found mine but it must be somewhere beyond for me.

Short of having guns and living on the "mountain." I don't think given who I am...I can do more after this election...It will be dark times beyond..no mountain can contain the mental torment these folks have affected me with. It's me, and my hubby, partner.

[Rowdyboy]

55. I think we have a "peaceful island" but to keep it, we maintain a very

low profile. Its not that I'm wild about staying here, its just that we have my partner's 84 year old mom to deal with; and a big, old unfinished house, and my partner can't retire for two more years....

I have no right to complain. So many don't have the basic comforts I enjoy, or the acceptance I experience. All I can do is hope for the best.

[KoKo]

62. I think there will be "pockets" of survival. You sound like you're okay..

I don't have that option...wish I did and I will search here before I leave.. Holing up in the NC Mountains with a shotgun and electified fence just doesn't do it for me though...

[OneTwentyoNine]

37. Oh brother...another one of these posts?

Yeah hell,after Reagan demolished Dem's in 80 and 84 we should have all given up and moved to Canada. BS,we got back in the fight and elected a real leader like Bill Clinton.

Jesus,did we really have $230 billion in the bank when Clinton left?? How fast junior pissed all that away and billions more.

David

[Bluebear]

45. I submit this is far, far different than Reagan

Reagan was happy to let gays die, of course, but he didn't legislate against them. This bible-thumpin' bunch would be as glad to send them to "Freedom camps" to appease their fundy base whilst laughing all the way to the bank. I've seen a lot of sentiment for shooting "liberal's" between the eyes too from the far right crowd. Am I alarmed? Not yet, but am getting very "concerned" as the right likes to say.

[Pallas180]

82. Dave - we had more than 5 trillion in the bank when Clinton left - dumbas

gave that to his oil buddies as tax refund gifts - and then he spent another 7 trillion and got us into debt now for 12 trillion dollars .

But we were in debt from the republicans when Big Dawg came in, and he cleared it up in less than 8 years.....so - all may not be lost.

[smirkymonkey]

44. What about Mexico?

I want to get out of here too, but I am thinking Europe. My paternal grandparents came over from Italy, so I wonder if they'd take me. Great, great grandparents came from Holland & England, but I think I am too far removed.

I might just GO and see what happens. I know enough people so that I could hop around for awhile and not stay too long in one country.

[Pallas180]

84. SMIRKY- I love Italy and the people,but u need to know-they are FAR RIGHT

they still love Mussolini - and I'm not kidding you -

[smirkymonkey]

149. Really?

Oh well, scratch Italy off the list.

What about all the peace demonstrators though?

[dumpster_baby]

204. They WILL take you in Italy

You can move there if you can prove heritage. Although from what I hear it is a bit hard to make a living there.....

[KoKo]

48. Thanks for the suggestions and support and those who said "why

leave" stay and fight.

This is very serious and I don't take wanting to leave, lightly. And, I'm so mainstream, it's sad to even say this. But Rather was the last straw.

I'll vote...but to stay here and fight this out for decades..well, I think there are folks behind me who are on the right path...that's why I said DU Oldies.

OMG..it's not like I'm decrepit on SS or something...it's just I've fought for years...and one get's tired when there's no support except from DU folks and liberal sites on the internet...It's an "energy level"thing and that I'm not a kid anymore...gotta think forward..

[madmax]

49. You're ok KoKo

:hug:

[KoKo]

63. Thanks...so are all you guys...We're all in this together...just some have

different time frames and needs. :-)'s

[Kanary]

106. "We're in this together"....?

How is this being "together"?

What I see is USians doing the same things they have always done..... find individual solutions. Do I understand people who can wanting to escape? Sure! But, what is really getting to me is the same thing I've seen throughout this whole mess, including the primary campaign -- very little concern at all for those who will die first...... the very poor folk. Where is *any* mention of them at all?

There's a lot of concern about gay folk, and being rounded up. So, they are included in the "together". But, where is any concern about those who will almost certainly be offed first, because it is so easy to do. Anyone at all who will speak out for poor folk? I don't hear ANYTHING.

There was a time when Dems had much concern for those on the bottom rung. That time is long gone.

It's left me with ZERO ambition to work for party concerns........... I don't see any hope left at all that there is going to be a resurgence of concern for those you consider beneath you.

So, what we're likely to see is more and more concentration on saving each individual hide, and complete amnesia about those who are STUCK.

Kanary

[Senior citizen]

54. My parents used to say you can't solve problems by running away.

But they were Jewish and the only relatives they had still alive were the ones who ran away from the pogroms in Russia and from Nazi Germany. The rest died. Of course my parents were also lying fascists, so you couldn't believe anything they said anyway.

I am not in a position to run. I outlived my usefulness and my expected life span 40 years ago. Even under the best possible circumstances, i.e., Kerry wins, we get a Democratic controlled Congress and Supreme Court, etc., etc., unless I'm lucky enough to get into a hospice, I can only look foward to an extremely painful death, whether I'm beaten to death by fascists or just not given sufficient painkillers when I become terminally ill.

What I worry about is that I have a daughter who is pregnant. She was given up for adoption at birth, 41 years ago, and I don't really know her, but she tracked me down and contacted me a few months ago. She and her lesbian partner are very well-to-do. The partner is the daughter of Holocaust survivers, and they are both liberal feminists. If Kerry wins, I assume my grandchild has a chance at a very good life. If not, I think their money insulates them so well from reality that they won't leave. From Holocaust to Holocaust in 3 generations? Mind-boggling, but entirely possible. I feel exactly as many here do, that we're sticking around for the election, but perhaps we should have left a long time ago.

[Habibi]

57. I understand wanting to leave

but I don't see it in my own future. So, I'll stay and, if necessary, become part of the underground. The . . . democratic underground.

[LifeDuringWartime]

58. game over, man, game over!

whether or not bushco are still in the white house this time next year or not, i believe that they will still be brought to justice for their crimes

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. Koko...Here's a fantastic resource for people wanting to escape the U.S.

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/62/efam62.html

Live Where You Want To Live! ~ Live How You Want To Live! ~ And Make Money Doing It!

Escape From America Magazine September 2004


Welcome to Volume Six Issue Number Nine - September 2004


About this Newsletter: You have received this newsletter because you subscribed or requested a subscription at www.EscapeArtist.com Removal instructions are at the bottom of the newsletter
Go Directly To The Online Index -Go To The Online Index Page -
We Did It! - Part Deux ~ Moving To New Zealand ~ by Rick Adams - In our case the challenge is the New Zealand Immigration Service, the NZIS, and the romance is with a country, New Zealand. Since I’m happily married, there won’t be any illicit affairs or anything. And in case my wife is reading this, “Hi honey, I love you!” And when I say “challenge” with the NZIS, I mean it in the most positive manner. And in case the NZIS is reading this, “Hi honey, I love you!”
Growing Healthy In Sardinia ~ Europe's Healthiest Population ~ by Emma Bird - Sardinians do indeed look much younger than they are. My boyfriend is 37 and friends who haven’t yet met him expect him to arrive in prim, conservative clothes. “Dove Mario? Where’s Mario then?” Valentina asked me in the Cagliari gelateria where we were celebrating her birthday. “Over there”, I replied, pointing to a normal-looking bloke that just happened to be my boyfriend. “Oh” she said, “But I thought he was old. He just looks like one of us.”
Opening A Business In Rome ~ One Expatriate’s Observations ~ by Sarah Yeomans - My first impression of Rome was that it was a lawless land, where you could make up the rules as you went along, as long as it didn’t attract the attention of the occasionally alert police officer or government official. Everything around me seemed to reinforce this impression, from the “creative” parking solutions, such as parking on a curb, to the seemingly helter-skelter methods of immigration control.

Swiss Rental Cows ~ Get Your Own Cow ~ By Bonnie Burns - In the past decade, more than a quarter of Switzerland’s family farms have gone out of business. Those that remain find creative ways to generate extra revenue. One such enterprising family leases out their cows during the alpine summer grazing. What do you get out of the deal? Visitation rights, if you are willing to drive up into the Alps to visit your ward.
How To Prepare For Living And Working In Russia ~ More On Living In Russia ~ by Jon D. Ayres - Want to come to work as a Native speaking English teacher in the Russian Federation? Getting a visa, temporary residence visas, and work permits here in Russia is not easy if you choose to do it on your own. It is a long, drawn out process that discourages a lot of people and many end up giving up and leaving. It is better to come here on the invitation of a school or other business and let them handle it all. The following is only my experience of dealing with Russia’s visa process.
Holding The Line Down Under ~ More From New Zealand ~ by Candy Green - Think about the word “line” and all its applications! This past week, while reading the newspaper and wandering around Christchurch, these thoughts have amused me. What was there to see, read and experience in this mountain top nation? A telephone line, a railway line, a tramline, a beeline, keeping kids in line, that line on the face, staying to the left of the line and, of course, the fault line.
Expats Now Can Call Home For Less ~ Long-Distance Rates ~ by Dennis Grant - For many people living abroad, the cost of long-distance service means carefully monitoring how often they call friends and family. An evolving technology called Broadband Internet Telephony is changing all that. Calls carried over the Internet, and not a traditional phone line, avoid many regulatory fees, allowing heavily discounted prices.
RETURNING HOME AIN’T EASY BUT IT SURE IS A BLESSING ~ Back To Ghana ~ by IMAHKÜS - Ahead of us loomed this enormous, foreboding structure. The sight caused me to tremble; I almost didn't want to go inside. The outer walls were chipped and a faded and moldy white exterior. The sea had eaten away some of the mortar. It was gray and dismal as we climbed the steep steps, following the sign leading to the reception area. When we entered the reception area of the Cape Coast Castle Dungeons a smallish man with a bright smiling face met us.
You want to live overseas and travel overseas, but how do you make a living? - Become A Travel Writer - Our own magazine is looking for a specific type of writer and we've been actively seeking a solution. We asked International Living Magazine about finding writers and they provided us with an answer. We wrote about this concept in a recent issue of our magazine; it includes a travel writers course in Paris, France - as well as additional venues. It is very much worth reading this article to see if it may apply to you. Making a living as a travel writer is one of those ways of having your cake and eating it too
Asset Havens Panama: Still the World’s Most Useful Asset Haven ~ By Robert Bauman - Panama continues as one of the world’s best tax and asset protection havens, and it also offers several options for tax-advantaged residency. That’s a considered opinion The Sovereign Society has espoused for several years, based on hard facts about this strategically located central American isthmus, the so called “Land Between the Seas,” best known for its famous canal.
High Yield Bank Trading Programs ~ 72%+ Per Annum ~ by Brian Gilbert - High Yield Investing is not a new thing, It has been around for many years, but has previously been reserved for the ultra wealthy. The following is an extract from information that explains briefly, how these returns are possible. In some cases, anything between 6-50% per month.
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NEW EBOOK - Driving the Pan-American Highway to Mexico and Central America - Complete Guide for Do-It-Yourself Planning and Driving Through Mexico and Central America .
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NEW EBOOK -Everything You Need to Know About Immigrating to Australia - Thinking about working in or immigrating permanently to Australia … and frustrated with trying to get answers from government sources? Here is your answer


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How To Make Enormous Returns In Overseas Youth Development ~ Brazil And Belize ~ by Dr. Rich Tarbox - People decide to start youth centers and outreach programs for a variety of reasons. The reasons for attempting to operate one overseas can be even more diverse. Generally, when someone is interested in starting a youth program overseas it requires a substantial commitment of forethought since they will be faced with both the normal challenges of youth center operation, and then some.
South Africa ~ Prime Real Estate ~ by Daryl Ducasse - Property has long been considered the ultimate investment class, whether primary residence, income opportunity, retirement security or your very own vacation destination. Owning a ‘piece of dirt’ has always been humankind’s interpretation of self. However and wherever it is used as a source of personal security, the fundamentals of sound property investment always comprise location and value.
New Issue - Now Online - The Offshore Real Estate Quarterly - The Spring Issue of the Offshore Real Estate Quarterly is now online - Featuring Real Estate in Florianópolis, Brazil - Buenos Aires - Castles For Sale - Islands For Sale - Boom Time In Bangkok - Rancho Santana - Pacific Coast Nicaragua - The Italian Riviera and a complete section on Offshore eCommerce and Offshore Web Hosting -
More Adventures In Surinam ~ Explorations ~ by John Spampinato - I had little success fishing the first several days, but there was plenty of food, and just about the first time I thought someone to share my rum with might be nice I had a surprise encounter with Garifuna bushmen - long removed progeny of nineteenth century slaves who, seeing the Guiana’s striking similarities to the jungles of their Congo origins, escaped their captors by simply vanishing into the wilderness where to this day many thrive unhindered, a feral society. Coming up over the ‘tall trees’ trail I swore I heard human laughter. Suddenly four sparsely dressed fellows appeared and froze in their tracks, as did I. Smiling, I motioned them to the lean-to where I made various unintelligible offerings and possibly inappropriate inquiries.

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.

El Salvador Autohotel ~ Salvadoran Hotel Pleasure ~ by Mark McMahon - I just don't get it! Is this just a place to park your auto? Where's the freakin' office? I drove around the circular interior of the drab cement complex several times and all I could see were small garage spaces with a door inside and a rolling metal garage door outside. "Where's the office?" I asked the security guard with a big shotgun and a nasty german shepard. My much improved Spanish was not enough to comprehend the situation. "Are there rooms here?" "Yes.
Ape Attacks, Bull Fights And Cities That Never Sleep ~ In Spain ~ by Dawnelle Salant - I was particularly eager to visit Barcelona as it is part of Catalonia. Being a Canadian, I’m fascinated by other countries that also have two “separate” regions, complete with their own languages, and I wasn’t disappointed. Barcelona definitely has a different feel than the rest of Spain. It’s not just hearing Catalan spoken, there’s something a bit more sophisticated about the city. It’s rich with history, culture and art all its own.
...
Overlanding ~ Traveling Through Africa ~ by Jacqueline Perry-Strickland - “We were sent out into the bush to fend for ourselves for nine months. Seventy-six boys in four groups. Ages 15 to 20. In my group one boy died. The lion killed him. Four boys were injured and had to return. Another boy was killed for being a coward.”

.
Dresden, Germany ~ The Capital Of Saxony ~ by Jörg M. Unger - If you are interested in German history, architecture, and art, you should decide for a journey to Dresden, Saxony - a gem among the big towns in former East Germany. The advantage of Dresden’s historic center is that all the well-known and famous buildings and squares are in walking distance, thus giving you plenty of time to visit the places of your personal interest.
.
A Costa Rican Adventure ~ Caravan Style ~ by Josh Eyestone - My wife and I flew in a day early so we could see another part of Costa Rica and to be able to walk around unhurried for a day in San Jose before our 10 day all inclusive tour that took us to 4 different hotels in different parts of the country. Costa Rica is in the southern part of Central America, between Nicaragua and Panama. The country is known for its diverse natural beauty; the country has volcanoes, rain forests, cloud forests, and both Caribbean and Pacific coasts. We live in San Antonio, so like always we have to fly into Dallas to go anywhere, but even from Dallas Costa Rica is just 3.5 hours away.

...
Then He Put His Foot On My Stomach ~ Thai Boxing ~ by Daniel Wallace - Travelling and losing weight don't always go together, I discovered. Ten months into my round the world trip, about to head south from Bangkok, I looked in the mirror to notice I was somewhat more out of shape than I had planned. Exact details are perhaps unnecessary - a chin fractionally more podgy than I remembered, a stomach... The end result is that I postponed my exit from Bangkok, and later that day enrolled in a Thai Boxing class.
Red Or Blue ~ A Folk Festival In The Amazon ~ by Rita Shannon Koeser - It was a rainy, humid April night in the Brazilian Amazon when I stepped off my ship in Parintins and entered the world of Caprichoso and Garantido, a world of red and blue. A world where red and blue are competing against each other in a fantastic performance of music, dance, chanting, fireworks, singing, beautiful young people in dazzling costumes, and beating of drums.
...
Offshore Stock Broker - Offshore & Online - In an article that first appeared in the September 2002 issue of Escape From America Magazine we spoke about a Swiss style securities broker here in Panama Since then we've had more than sufficient feedback to determine that clients are happy with the firm mentioned in that article. To facilitate dealing with the firm we have added secure chat so that clients can communicate with the firm in real time and ask relevant questions. The secure chat is hosted on our offshore servers in a high security lock down facility. ~ To Contact The Firm Please Click Here ~ Our contact form is hosted and remains on our secure server. None of the information that you input into our contact form will be transmitted via email, all the information you place into the form remains on our secure server and can only be viewed by those who are authorized to view it, and only through a password protected section. For more information click here -

,...
International Real Estate Marketplace Featured Listings - See this month's featured real estate listings - Real estate from Chile, Brazil, Croatia, Panama, Costa Rica, and around the world. Each month we feature new properties in our featured listings, colored photographs and access to our entire database of properties around the world. Find your dream property and plan your escape.



...
Getting Around Antsiranana ~ In The Extreme North Of Madagascar ~ by Rabenilaina Harinia Cyrille - As I mentioned, Madagascar is a wonderful, tumbledown Indian Ocean island where people laugh at hardship. Diego Suarez, situated in the extreme north of Madagascar, considered one of world’s most beautiful and widest bays, is a county town but also the third port of the continent island. Diego Suarez harbor, named after the two Portuguese explorers who “discovered Madagascar, is on the island’s northeastern end. Their names are: Diego Diaz, who discovered it in 1500 and a sailor, Fernando Suarez that visited it in 1506.
In The Land Of UK ~ Adventures In The United Kingdom ~ by Jurgen Klemann - When I was a student at university about twenty years ago, I took my first little baby steps to gain international experience. These first little baby steps led me to the turf of the POMs. POM stands for Prisoners of Her Majesty. The British are called POMs in the English speaking world in the southern hemisphere – primarily in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. They are called POMs in that part of the world because the first settlers in Australia were British convicts.

. Travel To Vietnam ~Looking Out For SARS ~ by Sheila D'Souza - It’s 9AM, and we have just left Nha Trang after stopping at every bus stop/tourist cafe that exists in town. In between stops, we have also re-fuelled, broken down and crossed a bridge that was still under construction. After over an hour of circling and zigzagging, I had became fearful that I would never reach Saigon by 7PM. But fortunately, it seems that we are now well under way. My attention is currently focused on the fact that the bus driver is seated across from me; he started taking the air-conditioning unit apart while we were re-fuelling, and another man nonchalantly replaced him.
.
Escape To Sundarbans…. Indian Flexabiltiy ~ by Rajdeep Bhattacharjee - Journey to India is not complete if you do not travel to the northeastern part of India .And as you travel to the Eastern part of this unique land, you should take out some time to visit the 1330.10 sq.kms swampy delta of the two mighty Indian rivers, Brahmaputra and the Ganges known as Sundarbans, famous across the world for being the home of the Royal Bengal Tiger. The name Sundarban is derived from Sundari Trees, once found in abundance in this swampy delta island.
Hooks In Havana ~ Lowdown And Looking ~ by Will Mitchell - This article clearly has the single male travellor in mind, and may be offensive to some people, so skip it if you're one of them. I have travelled much of my life, and try to fund my travels through black-market money trading, which works well in some South American and third world countries, where hard currency is in desperate demand. It's a skill in itself, and may be the subject of another article. As a single male expat Canadian, with normal heterosexual needs, I do sample the wares of other countries, but only if I am convinced it is safe, and not going to cause me grief in terms of STDs.
An Aussie View Of The Philippines Part 2 ~ Land Of The Beautiful ~ by Graig Beasy - G'day. Continuing on from last month, how on earth did I end up stranded in Cebu during my six weeks there; well let me begin with my departure from Tullamarine International Airport at Melbourne, Victoria. I was due to fly out at 11:45pm on Tuesday June 2nd 1998. I had arrived in Victoria’s State Capital a few days before and was staying with my sister Merryn in the eastern suburbs. A day later I received a call from Philippines Airlines informing me of a 2-hr departure delay, which I didn’t find to bothersome.
... The EscapeArtist International Real Estate Market Place has become the number one international real estate market place on the internet. Over 20,000 people a day now visit that section of our website alone. Find the property you want, sell the property you want. ... or just browse and dream. Plenty of photos.


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More - Conferences - Resources - Announcements - See The Index - Click Here To Go Directly To The Online Index
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[KoKo]

64. WOW...good resource....Swiss "Rent a Cows!" and other good stuff.

What I love about DU is "Help" when you need it! Many thanks...and for others who might be thinking their timeframe and needs have to get them moving along..

Scanned and have bookmarked. :-)'s "Swiss Rent a Cows" well now that's interesting...and opening your own business in Rome.

Escape Artist...yes..

[John_H]

165. That cow rental thing had to be thought up by a former BFEE guy

who has already escaped to Switzerland:

"For a higher price, you work on the farm for a couple hours moving avalanche boulders or digging post holes."

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

65. Not leaving

My parents didn't leave because of Nixon and I wouldn't leave now, even if I thought Bush would get back in.

[henslee]

68. I hear Uraguay and Costa rica are both beautiful and cheap to live.

There's always Mexico.

[LibertyorDeath]

70. Heads up

They are playing for keeps.

They are fascists.

The jurisdiction of the Northern Command now extends from Mexico to Alaska. Under ("bi-national") agreements signed with neighbouring countries, Northern Command can intervene and deploy its forces and military arsenal on land, air and sea in Canada (extending into its Northern territories), throughout Mexico and in parts of the Caribbean.
(See: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/dod/northcom.htm )

According to Frank Morales,"the scenario of a military take-over of America is unfolding." And Northern Command is the core military entity in this takeover and militarization of civilian institutions.

Northcom has a mandate to "defend the homeland" against this illusive "outside enemy" which is said to be threatening the security of America. As indicated above, however, it has been amply documented that this outside enemy, Al Qaeda, is in fact a CIA "intelligence asset." There is an extensive bibliography on this subject. See for instance
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/11SEPT309A.html;
http://globalresearch.ca//by-topic/sept11/;
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CRG204A.html.

The role of Northern Command is defined in the Pentagon's "Joint Doctrine for Homeland Security (JP-26)." The latter constitutes a blueprint on how to defend the Homeland. Even inthe case where the enemy is fabricated, and this is known at the highest levels of military-intelligence, a military coup d'etat would become operational in terms of the detailed command military/ security provisions contained in this document (click here to consult JP-26).

[Pallas180]

73. Ko KO - Rather didnt cave. You had to listen to his words carefully.

He didnt disown the essence that Bush didnt show up at NG

He said they couldn't confirm the origin of the documents( because that

guy won't tell him who gave them to him)

[grasswire]

76. honestly...

...I don't think it's going to be better anywhere else. Really and truly.

The big problem the world is going to face in the next few years is bigger than George W. Bush. It's Peak Oil. The ramifications of Peak Oil are going to be felt 'round the world. I'm afraid humans are in for some hard times. Iraq is just the first strike in the chaos Peak Oil will cause.

So if chaos comes here, it will come anywhere you are.

[serryjw]

100. I agree with peak Oil being the problem.....BUT

Will there be a place in the world where you can have a quality of life and be more self suffient....I live in Denver, and like all major cities I can do this very easily...Can i live somewhere where I can have land to plant food to sustain my self? I don't have a car. It is very dificult to leave D/T and spend 2 hours on the bus!In many ways I think USA will be hit the hardest by Peak Oil. We will not easily adjust and it will create a nightmare when Americans realize what is about to happen.

[Mr_Spock]

78. What's with all this stupid overreaction - CRIMINY!! "hide thread" for me

n/m

[AmerDem]

80. get a fucking grip!

quit whining! holy shit!:puke:

[dweller]

81. i can see the red tail lights

and i'm dreaming of Spain.

dp

[sffreeways]

83. You won't go

you're having a bad day.

But France will probably allow Americans that want to escape to come there if only temporarliy for political asylum.

Mexico is a possibility too. Why not, it's warm and the food is excellent.

But I don't believe that any DU'er that is talking about leaving is really going anywhere. Maybe a few but they will be back. This is till a great country. It's just messed up right now.

Ask yourself this. If you found out, if the entire country found out that Bush gave the order for 9/11 and he was refusing to resign and he gave the order for martial law to try and hold on to power would you still leave ? Or would you be pissed enough to stay ? Would you stay ?

Are you upset over the direction things are going or are you really so afraid you feel it's absolutely no choice ?

Because if you are really so afraid you haven't seen anything yet. And if you are that worried about the worst case senario then there is no place to go. Because if it's the fascism thing and you think you have to go because we aren't free anymore then he is all about world domination, unstoppable world domination. Then there is no place to go because he's going to attack everyone and crush them. You are better off here.

Would you rather die here or be crushed here or somewhere strange that you don't really want to be ?

[Pallas180]

88. I've thought it is fortunate that

the gun ban is expiring - and it probably wont be renewed until
Jan 05.

In countries like Bosnia and Rwanda and all the other countries where dictatorships have taken place, the people had been stripped of weapons and had no way of protecting themselves. Interesting that they
have trained so many Americans to fight in Iraq - who are now returning home sickened, disgusted. There's the hope.

[Gruenemann]

138. where i come from, it's the RW

freeper religious fanatic w-worshipping nra fascists that have all the guns. no way in hell can we hope to fight them with guns. no effing way. they're armed to the teeth and ready to kill us all in the name of 'freedom.' if you think we can stop neofascism with guns, you're living in fantasy land.

[KoKo]

193. It will probably come down to "pockets of resistence." Like

pre-revolutionary times. We are already a "pocket" here on the internet where we've made connections. It might come down to connecting locally to form militias of like people with "code words."

That's why I want to get out of here...If it comes to that. But, if it does, I have no doubt that our new "Revolutionary Spirt" to take back America will win once again. These people are not "clever." They are finatical zelots with no creativity. Look how the Iraqi's are whupping their asses. Our soldiers are dying for the Bushie's small brains and lack of creativity. They have money and power...no smarts to see they can be outfoxed.

I thought we could do it with words over the internet...fighting back with "Pen is mightier than the Sword." With a bought media megaphone we are outnumbered. It will in the end come to violence. I lived through the 60's ...don't want to see it again, but those who didn't don't have my reticence to go through it one more time...will be there to push back like you and others here.

[greblc]

85. Everyone needs to do something...

age and being tired is not an excuse. We've been through so much as a country. Why give it away? Isn't our Country worth more than a Uhaul to Canada? We owe it to Americans who'll come after us to keep this place together. It wasn't in to bad of shape when our Grandparents gave it to us. How can we be so quick to write ourselves off? We have to do a little maintenance from time to time. This machine we call Democracy does not fix itself.

[JSJ]

86. staying and plugging as many of these nazis as i can...

...if it gets down to it.

[foo_bar]

87. there's always... outside

[alittlelark]

150. LOL!!

[camero]

89. If Bush gets in again

Telling a liberal to stay in America will be like telling a Jew to stay in Germany during WWII.

Mark my words.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

97. OK, coward. Leave if you wish.

Look, I hate to so harsh, but this leaving the country stuff gets on my nerves. America will survive Bush, if we stand and fight.

[cire4]

99. Coward?

There's nothing cowardly about wanting to live in another country and experience a different culture with different people, different political and social institutions, and a different media.

Personally, I think living abroad is something that every person should do at least once in their life. When they return back to America, they are usually more aware about their country's flaws and are better prepared to fight against those shortcomings.

I seriously doubt that many here will leave America permanently. The more likely scenario is that they will leave for a year/year and a half and come back in time to be active for the 2006 midterm elections.

[hippywife]

107. Yes, coward!

Anyone who leaves is being selfish and selfish is what got us into this mess. After the victories of the past 60-70 years that have moved this country forward for all Americans, how many decided that the system was fine on autopilot? After civil rights and voting rights were won, how many decided that the country was on the right footing and stopped being active to cut their own slice of the capitalist pie in pursuit of the American Dream? How many of us thought that with such progress that there would be no turning back? How many never anticipated the ugliness that would rear its head in the form of the neocons and the religious right who hate anyone who isn't just like them? How many really believed that once civil rights were passed into law that the result would be a kinder society who would never look to hold down anyone ever again?

Even though we didn't physically leave the country, too many of us selfishly left the fight to pursue our own comfort. That is why we must stay and continue to fight. We screwed up and now we have to work even harder to fix it.

We live in Oklahoma. A place where many politicians who call themselves Dem are as far to the right as the current administration. It's really hard being a liberal in an upside down through the looking glass place like this. On bad days we talk about moving away, even out of the country if necessary. But on most days we understand one simple fact, if this country is to return to the right track, we must stay where we are needed. There is no questioning that fact, it's the way it is. If liberals move away, nothing changes except for the worse and we will leave behind victims of our own...those without the ways and means to effect an escape of their own.

With the military might and grand ideals of hegemony this administration and its minions have, there will be no place safe. We will stay and fight them for the return of our own country instead of waiting to fight them somewhere else.

Leaving now is like a spoiled, selfish child who quits because he doesn't like losing, even a little, instead of improving his skills at the game. Leaving now means there is no love of country, only of ourselves.

[G_j]

110. BS

you have just a made blanket statement about people of whom you know nothing about. You have zero knowledge of people's situations or how much they care about this country. It is NO different than the right calling people anti-American. How dare you judge others calling them cowards and spoiled, selfish children! Shame on you.

:puke:

[hippywife]

111. I didn't point to anyone in particular

If you read my post, I questioned how many Americans, and included myself, left the fight long ago. While it doesn't apply to everyone, why is it that progressive organizations who are have always been of the frontlines fighting for our environment and protection of our rights, working for peace, rarely have the manpower or resources to make more than small, incremental gains over long periods of time? Lots of activists burn out because others who, while they harbor the same beliefs, choose not to become involved.

I used to be one of those people. I'm working to change that. If I end up getting carted away for it if the right wing gets its way...so be it. I went down fighting and will be in much better company than those who remain silent and afraid to stand up for themselves and their beliefs.

On further edit, I'm not young either. I wish I still were with this much fire in my belly for the fight.

[G_j]

113. I'm glad you are working hard

I only ask you to be careful about judging others.
Some people I know want to save their children, others are elderly and have health issues. I know a great many people who feel they can fight more effectively from abroad.
Others feel that if the American people choose Bush they may be pit against their fellow citizens, and they want no part of that conflict.

[Kanary]

160. Yes, you were careful not to directly break the rules.

Doesn't mean you didn't do damage.

If your avatar can avoid that sort of attack, so can you.

:thumbsdown:

Kanary

[hippywife]

171. You know, Kanary

it wasn't a "careful" anything but an expression of my feelings about people who want to leave the country if Bush wins. Again, I lumped myself in with those who have been pursuing my own piece of the American Dream without paying close attention to the storm that was brewing to bring us all to this point. We have not only this battle to fight and win but lots of lost ground to make up.

Anything worth having is worth fighting for. This is the worst I have ever seen things in this country and this is the time to stand together and not run away. I'm tired, too. This has been a long four years. But what of those that have been fighting this fight for forty years? There are activists who should have dropped dead from exhaustion or gone insane from frustration by this time. We owe it to all of them who have fought before us and those who continue to fight to stay together and stand our ground.

I'm sure Dennis would see it that way, too.

[Kanary]

178. One thing I know about non-violence is NOT judging people

Non-violence means not making a judgement of people, especially based on a short post on an internet forum.

Non-violence means striving for understanding, rather than criticism.

Non-violence means appreciating when someone has honored you with expressing their honest feelings about their own situation.

Non-violence means understanding that we are NOT all alike: We have different needs, different backgrounds, different experiences, different capacities.

Non-violence means respecting another enough to be willing to LISTEN to what they are thinking and feeling.

Non-violence means knowing at your deepest center that others can't be converted to your beliefs by force.

What I know of Dennis Kucinich is that he is fully COMMITTED to non-violence. He has spent many years delving into himself to understand who he is inside, and a commitment to understanding others. Over and over, Dennis exhibited that aspect of himself during the campaign. I saw Dennis in many different situations, where he was dealing with people, sometimes shouting, who did not agree with him, and who wanted to push him in their direction. He didn't use verbal force with them, or show them any disrespect at all. In one tense instance I'm thinking of, he set his own boundaries of how he would be treated by them, but he did NOT, in any way, judge them. He was there to LISTEN, and help them to get what they wanted.

Dennis does not stand there and call someone "COWARD", or other names, in order to "convert" them. If he were ever to lose control and call someone names like that, he would have the grace to apologize.

I am one of those who have been an activist for 35 years. I do NOT want others hit over the head in my name. We simply can't build a better culture with those methods.

Understanding.

Patience.

Caring.

*THAT'S* what Dennis is about.

Kanary

[G_j]

194. yes and I can acknowledge

the passion of those who want all hands on deck to fight the good fight. However nobody can judge what each individual's role in this struggle is. There are many parts to play and if someone cares now they will care in the future. Changing geographical location doesn't change one's heart or passion or commitment.

in solidarity

[cire4]

157. Just because you leave the country does not mean you're leaving the fight

You can write letters to congressmen from abroad.
You can write letters to media outlets from abroad.
You can make political contributions from abroad.
You can help sway other American voters abroad (especially tourists)
You can attend protests abroad.
You can phone-bank from abroad.
You can register voters from abroad.
You can host "house parites" or fundraisers abroad.
You have the access to the same information from abroad (In many cases, the information is actually better because there is no corrupt FauxNews from abroad).

Ever heard of Democrats Abroad (www.democratsabroad.org). It is an organization that helps get the millions of overseas democrats involved in grassroots activism. Everyday, there are people in countires like the UK, France, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Japan etc. who are working their asses off fighting for America.

It isn't smart to characterize those who pursue overseas living as being "selfish." Many American citizens who live abroad care about their country more than much of the apathetic American population. Living in another country enables one to see the true impact that America has on the rest of the world. Seeing this, one feels they have a duty as an American citizen to fight for whats right in the United States.

[RapidCreek]

186. Yea?....so what the hell you gonna do?

You're gonna fight? How? With what? With who? When?

What will you do when those troops "we support", the guys just following orders, come a knockin on your door? You gonna shoot them? Are you and your fellow "fighters" going to offer yourselves up as fodder in hopes that they will eventually run out of bullets? Ask the Iraqi's how well these approaches work for them.

What do you plan to do when a few cops pull you over, your husband and kids in the car...and drag your husband into a paddy wagon, to be taken to a prison, you know not where, to be held without charge, indefinitely for questioning?

What will you do when over zealous fascist youths throw bricks through the windows of your business and fire bombs through your living room window? Call the cops who just dragged your husband away?

What will you do when your boss fires you because you are not "patriotic"? You gonna wave your civil rights in his face? You gonna take him in front of a court populated with fascist functionaries and sue his ass?

I could go on and on....

I'm real interested all you brave fighters...just what the hell do you plan to do? Give me the details...I'd just love to hear them.

RC

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

147. I think I misunderstood the sentiment.

It just seemed like he was talking about leaving for good, but I apparently misread the post. It's just that I see a lot of these "I'll leave the country if Bush wins" posts, and they irk me. This wasn't one of those, and I was wrong here. My apologies,

[aebrain]

108. Have you thought about New Zealand?

You may find the New Zealand Immigration Service page helpful.
Also good are :
New Zealand Infocenter
Working In New Zealand.

Advantages:
They speak English (kinda).
Very Multicultural.
Current Government is Progressive
Sun, Sand, Sea, Surf, Skiing
If you've seen LOTR you know what the joint looks like.
Last place on earth to be nuked in case of WW3

Disadvantages:
Getting permanent residency is difficult.
Government may change, or not be Progressive enough for you.
Cost of getting there is not cheap.

To comment on your motive for leaving would be unhelpful, so I'll just leave you with info you may find useful. Best wishes no matter what you do.

[KoKo]

128. I've heard great things about New Zealand. It's too far from any family

to work for us, though.

[Tashi]

112. Australia

aebrain quote"Say Bad Things about politicians here, and you can go to jail"

Now that's not true, we do have complete freedom of speech here.
But the present government is as bad as the Bush lot.
Here's hopping they'll get kicked out in October for a mix of Greens and Labor and decent Independants like Peter Andren.

Democrats welcome Down Under...but I think your country needs you now more than ever, so take heart and stick in there.

[aebrain]

121. Libel Laws in Oz

I did say "in theory". The laws are on the books, there's no legal exemption for "public figures" here, nor does malice need to be proved. Even truth is not an absolute defence, it must be both true and in the public interest to damage someone's valuable reputation.

That's why accusations are usually made under 'parliamentary privilege', which is absolute, anyone can legally spout the most outrageous slander and get away with it (in Parliament).

A Restaurant critic was successfully sued for giving a bad review about five years ago, and truth was no defence for him.

But then again, politicians have been sued too.

See Chapter 6 of Information Liberation :

The examples in this chapter are Australian, where defamation laws are notorious for their severity and their use against free speech, and where there is no clear constitutional protection for free speech.

To avoid giving offense, I will not comment on whether we have political 'Freedom of Speech' here or not. I have already done so on another forum. Oh yes, IANAL, but in the course of my work I did have to review every reported superior court case in every state of Australia over a 5-year period. Checking a Legal database. If you can find any URLs that contradict my belief, I'd be most grateful.

[napi21]

114. I've been checking out Lake Chapala, Mexico

Quite a few Americans & Canadians have moved there, so it's not mandatory that you speak Spanish, the weather is terrific (never too hot or too cold), housing is inexpensive compared to most places in the US, utilities, ins, etc are cheep compared to here.

You have your SS check direct deposited into a US bank account and take the money out that you need via ATM.

It realloy does sound like a great option!

I first read about this place in a terrific article in AARP magazine.

[Gloria]

146. Caution on Chapala.....the lake is now polluted and the area may

be getting priced too high because of the influx.....there are other regions in Mexico that are also inviting.....

Check out www.escapeartist.com and get their newsletter International Living about property, etc.

[AP]

115. It reassures me that someone who has been so nasty about Edwards...

...is a quitter.

Mind you, I don't have a problem with people deciding to leave America for countries which do a better a job of allowing people who work hard to accumulate wealth. (An immobile labor force helps capital exploit labor and a good way to prevent that is to move to better places -- and to still vote in America).

However, you're not thinking like that. You're thinking like a quitter.

Given how nasty and wrong you've been about the issues over the last year, I actually find that encouraging.

[BiggJawn]

117. Can I have your stuff when you go?

I'm staying.

[Shopaholic]

120. I'm thinking of St. Maarten--half the Island is Dutch, the other half

is French. Yeah, hurricane season would be a bitch but I live in SC already, so I'm used to that.

[laruemtt]

118. dh and i have been planning on leaving

next august - hope that's not too late..........

[AmerDem]

119. I CAN and WILL stay and FIGHT!

I know in my heart what is right. I know how much I love this country and what it USE to stand for. I'll go to my grave getting it back!

I pity the manipulative fascist fuckers that cross my path!


I say to you, if you don't have the fight in you now, leave now. I don't find it too admirable for you to stick around when times are easy but are willing to chickenshit out of here when the going gets rough. When the going gets rough it is the time you step up even more!

[elehhhhna]

122. Netherlands if there's a draft when my gals are older...

8 & 10 now. Have family there and can get work & dual cit.

[AmerDem]

124. Oh I understand. So you would be willing

to let other fight to their death taking back our country while you sit in the peaceful Netherlands? Then once we have taken it back you would feel safe enough to come back and use our country for all the benefits it has.

Well, do us all a favor, drop that dual citizen bullshit and stay in the Netherlands!

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

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[Gregorian]

137. Warning- you can't just leave.

You can only go to Canada for six months, then you have to return. And to get a green card takes nearly two years, and about $3000. I just tried.

By the way, there ARE areas in Canada that actually are desert, complete with cactus.

[Lindsey]

141. Probably Costa Rica for me..

Unfortunately, I don't have time to read all of the posts about this but I don't think I can stay and fight either. I'm exhausted - four years is a long time. I'm afraid that I would slip into a depression (as I have a propensity for). My best friend is there now and I feel pretty sure I could work it out. God in Heaven, don't let it come to this. :-(

[KoKo]

173. Well... forget Canada, then. But, I heard on DU that if you have sponsor

you can still get assylum from persecution in Canada. Like the Vietnam Protestors...if you have sponsor you can get in... Do you know anything about that?

[Gregorian]

185. I can point you toward a website.

I was looking at buying property in northern BC. I hear that they are close enough to Alaska that they can just go and visit every six months. I also talked to a woman who has lived there for 25 years. She just moved, and never said anything. But there are computers now. There are different ways to get in. If one has a bundle of money, they can invest in Canada, and get in. I'm sure the sponsor thing is also a way in. The timing might still be an issue. I was going to enter as a skilled worker. Oops. It appears that I've just lost all of my Canada bookmarks. Well, I found an official Canadian website where there was an immigration exam. For a skilled worker, one must score 69 points on this test. It includes years of work withing the last ten years; Your language skills (French and English); Your age (they deduct points for every year over 49). I am sure there are cases where entrance is shorter than the 18 months I was told.

Aha, I magically found my bookmarks- here's the website. It's on the page for the skilled worker, and you can navigate to other pages pretty easily. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/

I'd delve into it a bit more, but I just spent the day pouring and mixing concrete, and I'm BEAT!

Good luck. I decided to just stay here. It was too scary a move for me. I found myself quite fearful. A neighbor left during Vietnam, and never came back. Married a Canadian. Life!

[KoKo]

188. Thanks for the link! And for looking when you're dog tired...

Having to buy my way in might be a problem...but I'll see what it says, and take the test.

[GliderGuider]

143. Hell, I'm already in Canada and I'm thinking of moving

If those fascist sonsofbitches win another term there may be no place on the continent that's safe from their ravages. The trick is to find a country that's far enough away, small enough not to appear on the hegemonic radar screens, and has NO OIL. I'm thinking New Zealand...

OK, I'm being a bit hyperbolic here, but I will seriously be keeping my eye on you lot, and I'm actually thinking of assembling a getaway kit.

To think that all your noble dreams have come to this is almost unbearable.

[Gloria]

144. Having researched this a great deal........

Visit the "Escape from America" site and sign up for their newsletter for insight into a lot of places...including property.

www.escapeartist.com the newsletter is "International Living" for info on property.....

Costa Rica is not at the top of the list anymore. It's gotten more expensive and there are some crime problems that are getting more attention.
Panama looks like the up and coming place in Central America.

This year, France is rated the 2nd best place to retire.

One approach is do Canada in the summer...you can go go 6 months and don't need a visa. You can bring your dog. Just over the border is Lethbridge, Alberta, so you can get back to the states for medical care.
I can't do damp, so Vancouver is out of the question...

[amazona]

151. panama is beautiful

While I don't plan to relocate, I loved my visit to Panama and plan to visit again, it's great.

[KoKo]

190. I can't do damp and dark..either...what about cats. "Escape" looks like

a great site. Posted somewhere here last night and I did a cursory check and it's very helpful about business.

I know some places in Europe...France in particular, I think have very strick quarenteen rules about Cats...

So many DU'ers, myself included, have cats that we know don't do well in kennels. I would hate to leave a dog in a foreign kennel, too. It's a problem with our pets..Like the hurricane victims...don't want to go without them...but staying and dying is the question..

[ElsewheresDaughter]

148. Costa Rica

[sybylla]

152. Besides those already mentioned, Belize would be on my list

and probably occupy first place. It is on the Yucatan peninsula so they have a moderate tropical climate and as they were a British colony at one time, most everyone can speak English.

I haven't checked into immigration requirements because I'm just not at that point yet. But, if the standard of living is cheaper, I would probably consider it before Canada or other countries.

Just my two cents.

[jokerman93]

154. Staying

I'm not sure how my fiance will feel about it if things in America start to tank after the election. She's not too political...yet. Guess we'll have to have a talk. It5's not real to her conceptually yet.

Anyone else in a situation like this with a partner?

[LSK]

158. New Zealand

[young_at_heart]

159. One senses that a civil war is coming

I can't leave....my family is here. It's hard not to be hugely dismayed at the raw and immoral power plays constantly going on. Vanity Fair has an excellent article about the debacle in Florida.....you'll be very depressed when you read it though!

[Catherine Vincent]

162. Koko don't be CooCoo.

America need it's liberals and progressives.

[KoKo]

174. I know...and if no one stays it means they will win. But, for some of us

"oldies" (I'm not on SS..but for those who are, and close to it) it does mean our future. I did all the stuff protesting Vietnam and everything else...Gotta look ahead. That's why I titled my post the way I did.

DU "Youngies" should stay and continue...and fight for what we all believed as AMERICAN PRINCIPLES...Not BUSH's IDea of this...but what our Consitution and Bill of Rights States.

Some need to move on...and some need to stay and fight for those who did it before...That's all I'm saying. :shrug:

[AgadorSparticus]

164. such melodrama......

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KoKo]

175. It's a very hard time we live in. And those of us DU Oldies have been

through it before. I don't know where you come from, but it's very discouraging to have lived through Cold War and Vietnam Protests and find your country right back where you tried to save it from.

If that's "melodramatic" then it is..to you. But, it's desperation at not seeing anything accomplished when we are back in a "quagmire like Iraq" for those of us who sacrificed our salaries and living style to pay for Vietnam...

One does get a little "melodramatic" when one is walking down another road of Government ABUSE OF WAR POWER...

Like..get me outta here...this isn't the AMERICA of History Books ...it's a sham. :shrug: just so you know...:eyes:

[AgadorSparticus]

197. it is like a person in depression justifying suicide. i find your line

of thinking irrational. i'm not saying that to feel depressed, frustrated, angry, hopeless is irrational. scream, punch a pillow, work out, meditate, whatever. but to justify and celebrate defeatist attitudes is irrational. history tends to repeat itself. just because you lived through the cold war doesn't mean that corruption and imperialism started then. America, throughout its history has always had splinters of corruption, graft, abuse of power--Ulysses Grant, William McKinley, Tamminy Hall, Tweed Ring, etc. Even if Kerry wins and straightens out all the mess the neocons have created, it does not mean that the US is rid of corruption for all eternity. It just means we won that round. Another 50 yrs from now, we will probably have to stand up and defend our freedoms, civil liberties, and democracy all over again. It's a cycle. Sometimes, we need to have the threat of losing something to appreciate it. besides, i remember it being pretty nice when clinton held the reigns not long ago. we had the depression and emerged from it with FDR and the corp of engineer and the hoover dam. so, it hasn't ALL been bad like you make it out to be.

you sound like you need a break from politics altogether. but to talk about fleeing your country when the election hasn't even occurred yet is premature, impulsive, emotional and yes, melodramatic. we are moving towards a globalized planet. i'm not sure where you are going that will be immune to this if it should ever unfold completely.

where i come from was a war torn country now under communist tyranny. and that is all i will say about it. my family came here with nothing but the shirts on their backs and are living the american dream. there is no doubt the US has serious problems, but traveling abroad has made me appreciate this country--even with all its warts. it could be a whole lot better, but it could be a whole lot worse too.

run if you must. when they come to take me to the concentration camps, i'll either take some out or make a run for it too. until then, i'd rather lose while fighting for what is right and good.

[Kanary]

181. Such judgment

:eyes:

[FunctionalDyspepsia]

166. An idea: Democratic Cruise

Just hear me out. Its odd I know but an idea came to me. I mean, we have to be prepared, especially now, and if that slug we call a... a... I can't call him a president. Anyways, back to the point, if they use the same underhanded tactics to get that 'thing' back into the white house this year, many of us will have little point in staying in this country.
So my thoughts, unformed and just a loose idea is, a Democratic Cruise to last through the possibly forthcoming Years of Hell.

Those who can barely afford to stay with this economy now, much less when he sends it completely town the toilet, can have donations collected to help them aboard and enjoy comforts formerly snatched away by the Empire.

I'm not sure how feasible it is for a cruise of this length, but then again I've heard of rich republicans using their ill-gotten savings to retire on a ship and see the world, which unless they are too rotten, will unfortunately live for more then four years.

Not saying there is anything wrong with Canada, but compared to a cruise, no question.

Any ideas, comment, suggestions etc on this I'd love to hear.

[KoKo]

177. I think that there are DU'ers who could chip in for others, if we could

find a "hideaway." I think of the "Underground Railroad who managed to move the escaping slaves along all the way through the South, Mid Atlantic and up into Canada.

We might need a "Route" or places of passage in "free zones."

Don't know if an "endless cruise" is an answer, because if Bush get's in it would be a "Ghost Cruise forever" but, you idea of a floating island for Liberal Refugees who need to excape is a good one.

How could we make it work? Contacts and a "road or pathway out?" :shrug:

Safehouses along the way for those wanting to become Ex-Patriots? If it was needed? I would participate in that...we need to think about it..

[GreenPartyVoter]

200. I think a cruise of that sort would meet up with an

iceberg or torpedo or meandering land mine leftover from WWII.

I put nothing past Bu$hCo.

[sbj405]

168. Honduras - much cheaper than Costa Rica

Know a guy down there that built a house, microbrewry, the works for $50k. Yes, the standard of living is much lower than Costa Rica, but money can help you overcome things (like potable water, etc.). It's a beautiful country that's just starting to realize it's potential with regards to ecotourism.

[KoKo]

176. Don't you worry about Military Takeovers and Wars for Natural Resources

and the whole bloody history of America's intervention into Central and South American Politics?

How long before Bushistas decide that they need some piece of the land there for mineral, or other rights?

Is it really safe from these people? :shrug:

[David Zephyr]

179. Dear Friends, If The Multi-Nationals Control the Prize of the U.S.

then there really aren't that many places left to go.

It's not Bush, but the corrupt and powerful money behind him.

Already third world countries, many of them named in this thread, are so indebted to the IMF that they are allowing multinationals to actually purchase and resell drinking water to their citizens.

The European Union is by far the last last long term refuge, but your dollars now have approximately half of the purchasing power they did before the Bush Junta stole the election in 2000. I know as I missed my chance to buy a condo in Spain and have been kicking myself for the last 3-1/2 years now.

Central America is very dicey. I know as I grew up living on and off in Latin America as a boy and later as a young man. While Costa Rica is a haven of sorts, it is surrounded by Panama and Nicaragua which are both highly unstable now and controlled by the very same people that you would be fleeing from here---multinationals. Read the Harvard Classic: Bitter Fruit about the CIA coup in 1954. Watch Oliver Stones' "Salvador" or the film "Romero" about Central America in the 1980's. Believe me...very little has changed.

Canada? Already you see Murdoch's creepy tentacles trying to push its way into Canada by bribery of their elected officials just as they did here. Do you think that should Bush be re-elected that the all powerful pharmaceutical conglomerates are going to sit by idly and let Canada piss in their faces? Do you not think that the same "privatization" once thought impossible, but that took place in Great Britain and the old Soviet Union will not take place in Canada, too?

And there is the permanent stigma of being an American living overseas. It's not pretty out there anymore. Don't just take my word for it. Ask anyone who has traveled abroad lately. It's ugly almost everywhere.

So, while the grass may appear greener in other places, it rarely is. Between my companion and I, we speak six languages fluently and are, like many of you contemplating the possibility of living abroad, but your motives should not be fear.

Some of you living in the South where liberals are a magnet for abuse, I can appreciate your concerns. But, here on the West Coast and New York and New England and the Chicago metro area, we liberals are the great majority and that is not going to be changing.

Look before you leap.

[KoKo]

187. you have a good point, in that we have business dealings with French,

German, Spanish...and while our contact is a small segment of those countries...we are asked "Why is Bush running America?" And our Spanish contact was over here and she was in Madrid during the bombings, but said "We thought it was because of Alazar's relationship with Bush. Alazar was popular in Spain, but she said because he lied about the Bathists he went down. I didn't get that she liked who had replaced him and blamed it all on Bush.

Our French contact uses colorful language about Bush..I won't repeat here, and the Germans (three of them) who have clients all over Europe, keep asking "What is this Bush...why does he stay there...?"

I don't know the answer? We try to explain that it's the RW Religious and and PNAC...but they don't understand...so one has to leave it. :shrug: It's too complicated for them to understand just as if they tried to get into technicalities with their leaders my eyes would glaze over. They see Bush as bad...and don't understand how he got into the Presidency. Explaining FLA and the rest seems "Un-American" to those who believed America stood for good things. Granted what we're dealing with is the late 40's to early 50's Europeans (who remember Cold War...unification after Berlin Wall)...not the 30 Somethings who may have different views...but that's what we hear. :shrug: We would probably look to France or Spain before Latin America because of worry about instability in those countries so close to us.

But, with Bush's target the ME...maybe he would let it go...unlike Reagan and those very countries in Central and SA would be the safest of all?

[jokerman93]

189. It may not be changing

...But it could make areas with large liberal demographics into ideal target-rich environment for mischief by political terror-mongers and their paid stirrer-uppers, scorch-earth religionists and other organized groups of goofy freeper thugs who need to make a point to the rest of country...

Sad. This whole terror meme has driven amerika crazy. That we could even be at the point of considering the aftermath of democracy's end -- it grieves me.

[jukes]

180. stay & fight

there are many support functions that don't require youth or strength, thus freeing up the youngsters for more ambitious projects.

i'm 55, & can't leave due to a lack of resources. i plan to go down kicking, screaming, & eye-gouging!

[psychopomp]

199. Heh-heh

I thought you would if it came to that--OS!

:hi:

On this topic, generally, I think it is okay for people to consider leaving; though I would hope that the ones who could return to help in the struggle would, in fact, come back to the aid of their brothers and sisters still in the mix should things really go south.

It is important, though, to find the place that you love because living abroad ain't easy...doubly so if the language and culture are very different.

Still, it is a very big world. I have lived abroad for the better part of ten years and feel more inclined these days to turn my sights on ranging further in this wide world rather than on the U.S. We are only four percent of the world population! There are many interesting, loving people to meet.

[LiberalEsto]

183. Estonia

Because my parents were born there, so i can claim citizenship. And I speak the language and have relatives there. But oh, those long, dark winters.

[Green Lantern]

184. Love Canada

but it is too close-if Bushwa is re-selected, he will annex Canada to get the natural resources there. Just watch.)

Ireland or Wales look good, so does Spain, or Portugal.

If he gets back into DC, it will be interesting to see the out-migration tables-the who, how much money/property transfered, how much the US will lose.

It will start soon after Nov 2, I think.

[JCMach1]

196. If you like big fast-moving cities-- Dubai could be an option

:)

[hyphenate]

198. It'll be Canada for me

My parents were both Canadian and I still have plenty of relatives there.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[justfred]

202. Hey, Fellow DUers - Do you realize that the Nazis are copying these posts

...and using them to bolster their troops.

*RIGHT CASTY???*

Now is not the time to be defeatist - it is time to mobilize. This is our country and we cannot stand by and let the corporate fascists control it for another four years, or we may never get it back.

We need to get out and work for Kerry - he is our only chance to get the Bush Family Nazi Cartel out of power.

Don't be defeatist - work for the defeat of the Nazis. We beat them in the 1940s, we can defeat them now as well.

[G_j]

205. that is what we are doing

trying to Kerry elected I don't get your point.

and copying these posts? who cares? :shrug:

[justfred]

215. You should care...

...you see, they are copying these posts as evidence that we are giving up, accepting defeat and running away...and like sharks, when they smell blood in the water they get excited and use it to get other sharks excited.

Well, if the Nazis think we are leaving then who would oppose them?

Screw leaving - LETS MAKE THE NAZIS LEAVE, IF WE CAN HAVE A COUNTRY WHO WILL HAVE THEIR STINKING, LYING BUTTS.

[Piperay]

203. Mexico

that is where I am moving within the next couple of years. I'm in CA so Mexico is close enough that I will be able to come back and visit here now and then.

[TrogL]

206. It ain't cold in Southern Ontario, Canada

It's the same latitude as Northern California

[goodhue]

207. India

[G_j]

211. I dearly love India but

I would probably choose a place less populated and without nukes.
Still it would be tempting in a way, India is a pretty magical place.

[goodhue]

214. yes well

New Zealand would certainly fit the bill--Coromandel here I come!
But I have family in India so that is likely where I'll be . . .

[MsMagnificent]

219. *chuckle* That's where my job went

so what the hey? :>

[KoKo]

208. Getting worse..

:kick:

[misanthrope]

210. I'm moving to Tom Miller's Palm Beach Palace.

Or maybe Wayne Duck's Central Alabama Ponderosa.

[Forkboy]

216. I can't afford to move anywhere

(So much for my dream of living on the shores of Hudson Bay filming polar bears!).

So fuck it....let them come for me when/if the time comes.It'll make for an interesting day for everyone concerned! :)

[KoKo]

217. Has everyone "renewed their Passports? Gotten a Passport? If we wait

until Election 2004, it might be too late. I'm renewing mine which has been lapsed.

[MsMagnificent]

218. It ain't over 'til it's over

I'm not overly optimistic- but dammit we have to try!

It's OUR COUNTRY TOO!!!


(& If Bush wins -- I'm seriously believing we're in the end times. Really. And the Republicans hate so much they'll commit genocide against us... they've already said so, many many times! Don't believe me? Go look at LGF & other blogs of that ilk and look up 'kill democrats' or put them in 'concentration camps'. It'll turn your stomach.)

*putting tinfoil hat back on, just in case* :>

[freeminder]

220. may I suggest belgium?

A small country in the heart of Europe
Currently governed by liberals & socialists, solidarity is not a hollow phrase yet.
Good-humoured, easygoing people (bon-vivant), most speak english
Best beer, french fries and chocolate in the world
Property is relatively cheap compared to European average (300 k$ will get you a nice free-standing house with 2000 square meters in most regions)

Ah and I will have a small house in my back yard which has no destination yet :-)

[Codeblue]

221. Gotta get outta here

A few months ago I called for a revolution on this very site. I said nothing will really ever change in this country without a drastic upheaval that comes with revolution. The system will still be screwed up, the poor will still be poor and looked down upon by the elitists, we will still have to take out ridiculous student loans to pay for college, still won't get the treatment we need from hospitals because of a lack of affordable health care and insurance. Nothing would change. But what did everyone say to me back then?

FUCK YOU!! That's what they all said. Non-violence is the only way we'll get what we want, revolution is crazy, you sound like Tim McVeigh, this just discredits us even more, blah blah blah. But now, I see many posters talking about this very thing. Everyone seems to have come around to the idea of a revolution if Bush wins. And the people who don't want to fight are moving away, which is perfectly fine with me.

But now a revolution doesn't sound like such a good idea to me anymore. How could I fight? What would I do? I had 15 people around me willing to fight with me in a revolution. 15 of us holed up in a building in the mountains fighting the fascist army...we wouldn't hold up very long against...oh I dunno...artillery bombardment, tank bombardment or B-52s. I don't want to die; I'm 19 years old. I can't die yet, I haven't done anything. I have a whole life to live.

I've grown up pretty poor. My dad only worked during the summer painting houses and left it to my mom during the the winter to keep us above the poverty line. $22,000 a year isn't much. We had enough for our necessities and even a lot of our wants, but we are poor. With the job market what it is right now, I'm worried about being able to pay back college loans. My parents won't be able to help. I want to live somewhere that I don't have to worry about becoming one of the many homeless, poverty-stricken individuals in this world. I want to live somewhere that I don't have to worry about if I'll have enough money to go to the doctor for a simple checkup. I want to live somewhere that I don't have to worry about the environment being trampled under the boot of big business and greedy politicians. I can't stand big cities, I have to be able to go somewhere quiet in the wilderness often to just listen to the beautiful, natural sounds. I don't want to have to worry about the places that are dear to me being bulldozed and logged into oblivion to make way for more useless shopping malls so Americans can live out their vain and petty existence trying to look pretty for everybody.

If Bush wins, I WILL move to Canada. My uncle, cousins and half brothers live there and are always begging me to come up for a visit. My father is Canadian and never became a U.S. citizen so I WILL apply for dual citizenship. Perhaps I will return after a while to help the rest of you who stayed behind, if there are any of you left after the purges and death camps. To address other issues posters have brought up; in my opinion, this country hasn't been worth having for a long time. We obliterated a race of people to gain this chunk of land. We took this land and enforced our fucked-up white man laws on everyone and everything here, pillaging and raping as we went. We call ourselves civilized but we are disgusting heathens, savages; a word better used for our ancestors than the Native Americans they so rudely dubbed. I agree that if something was ever worth having, it is worth fighting for. That's why I'm not fighting for America.

The idea was sound, but the history of America has been one of lies, deceit, violence, intolerance, persecution and decadence. Most of you say that there have been times in our history where you despised what America did. I say there have been few times where I've liked what America has done. Our system is flawed and has been flawed from the beginning. This country was created "for the people, by the people"? No. It was created for the rich by the rich and the government has always been and will always be in the hands of the rich who pretend they give a shit what the common American is going through but really don't care about anything other than if their maid they hired for $6 an hour cleaned everything she was supposed to or whether their $200k car has a little, unnoticeable scratch on it.

No my friends, I'm gonna get the fuck out. Nothing will ever change without a drastic upheaval. Some other countries are better, but very few will ever be able to satisfy me. I know, I'm really cynical and have a pessimistic outlook on the whole damn thing, but I don't care. I want what I want and I'm gonna try to get it. I don't want this vain, materialistic existence...in fact, I don't even give a shit about money. I don't want to be rich. I just want to be happy, and I know American materialism just isn't gonna do it.

So have fun those of you who stay. If Bush gets back into the White House, I'll probably never be in contact with you ever again when he takes control of the media and shuts this place down.

Take care.

[Kipepeo]

222. stay and fight

This is my country goddamn it and I'm not about to leave it to a bunch of radical blood-thirsty wingnuts, because they'll eventually come after the country I move to anyway.

Not that I hold any kind of anger towards those who feel they must leave. I just can't.

If they steal this election I am afraid for what will become of this country. They've instilled such intense hatred and divisiveness as it is...but I'll be here to see what happens.