Oldie DU'ers where are you planning on moving? I can't stay and fight.

[KoKo]

But, I don't know where to go. I don't like cold..like in Canada.

But, when Rather caves I know it's time...if one can...to get outta here.

[Individualist]

1. Don't know where I could go,

but like you Koko01, tonight when I heard Rather apologize, I thought when he's silenced it's time for those who are planning to leave the country to do so now.

[Vincardog]

3. Vote before you go.

[KoKo]

7. Yes...I will vote before I go...but I need to make plans. I don't want to

be left here like the Jews who didn't get out in Nazi Germany. I have a big mouth...it's hard for me to "blend in." I've already lost friends and family members because of Bush, so I know just like with Ann Frank's experience in Holland...I and my family would be turned in because I have an "aura" of Resistence. Folks can just tell about folks like me.

I will have to leave here. Many of you can "blend in" and go "unnoticed with a "practiced Repug...blend in ...making your subtle points and thereby you can stay to mount La RESISTANCe....But, I am not blessed with virtue of "blending." I'm tired of this and I know I can't do more...so I will have to find a place...I just am stymied as to where..

[Vincardog]

4. Vote before you go.

[prouDem]

192. I'm not going anywhere

I'm going to volunteer and vote this year, then I'm going to volunteer and vote next time, ... until I can't do either anymore.

[Eloriel]

52. Oh, please. He wasn't silenced.

It was a set up, and yes, probably Rove.

Here's why. First, Rove's history (and I apologize to DUers who have read this from me about 20 times now) --

James H. Hatfield wrote a book about George W. Bush called "Fortunate Son." He interviewed Rove and Rove confirmed Bush's cocaine use, and gave him a lot of other information.

The book gets printed and even distributed to some bookstores, and lo and behold one of those other "facts" from Rove is inaccurate. About some politican who was a Dem instead of Repug as Hatfield wrote (or vice versa). Not only that, but Rove had dug up some very nasty but true past history on Hatfield.

St. Martin's Press, which had printed the book, called back its copies and destroyed them since Hatfield's ENTIRE credibility was undermined by the double whammy on his credibility. Virtually everything ELSE in his book was no longer valid, just on the basis of the tawdry tale and his one incorrect "fact." The book was later published by Soft Skull Press, and not long after that Hatfield died, presumably of suicide (altho most DUers who know me don't trust ANY reports of "suicide" among Bush enemies and detractors).

Fast forward to the present. CBS gets wind, somehow, of these "documents." Rather said that Burkett had NOT contacted them, they CBS went after him. Rather knows the underlying story is true, all the other digging they've done over these past 4 years confirms well enough the info is true. They look authentic, their experts vouched for them, or at least well enough ESPECIALLY since the underlying story is true. They run with it.

Within 2 hours, I've read, the blogger known as Buckhead starts up his typography critique, the news EVERYWHERE picks that up with lightning speed, and little by little they all chip away at the credibility (despite some yeomen's efforts on our side of the political divide). Finally, Rather interviews Burkitt again (this past weekend), looking more closely at the provenance, and the story doesn't hold.

How did Buckhead jump on this story within 2 hours of its release? Well, we know that CBS asked the White House to comment before they went with it. We also know that Buckhead is a Repug operative and contributor, a lawyer who does work for the Southeastern Legal Foundation (similar to Larry Klayman's organization except totally conservative -- they fight to overturn affirmative action laws, etc.).

Another factor: Burkitt maybe didn't contact CBS, but he IS a Dem and did contact the Kerry campaign. According to Burkitt, he finally talked to Cleland but didn't get a call back after that.

Did someone from the Kerry campaign tip off CBS? We don't know. Of course, Burkitt was a commander in the TANG, so eventually someone, somewhere was likely to talk to him if they were seriously researching this story, so it IS possible that CBS contacted Burkitt on their own.

Where did Burkitt get the memos? He won't say (and apparently lied to CBS about it when they pressured him once all this blew up), but Burkitt insists he didn't forge them.

I think Rove, via some other 3rd party, planted them with Burkitt possibly even YEARS ago, in a similar sting to the one he ran with Hatfield. I would NEVER have suspected Rove had there not been this previous history with Hatfield.

And I think some blogger ought to write about this.

Anyway, CBS was set up. Now THEIR credibility including Dan Rather's is in the toilet. They are going to have a difficult time convincing anyone anywhere for a long, long time that they've got the goods if they run across other magnificent documents on any subject at all.

They were had. They probably should've done a much better investigative job.

[Pallas180]

74. What if the secretary reconstructed what Killian had told her & gave it to

Burkett?

I dont think Dan is through with this yet....

and I dont think it was Rove. Rove would never go that close to the truth..

Credibility? I's still believe Dan Rather and 60 minutes. How bout you?

[Zhade]

92. "And I think some blogger ought to write about this."

You just did.

Would you mind if I linked to this on my blog? It's great stuff!

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[SOS]

135. Rove and his mentor Donald Segretti

have a long history of using faked documents, planted info and false accusations.
The following aren't located on Fantasy Island:

Muskie 1972 - a Segretti job
Lafeyette Park CD-ROM
McCain 2000
Tom Harkin smear job
Mark White (TX Governor candidate) phony bug story
Gore video
Cynthia McKinney smear job

[gordianot]

191. USA Today

Do not forget USA Today is also playing this story the same time frame as CBS.

[Shoeempress]

2. Check out Vancouver. Very temperate climate, gorgeous city, right on the

water. I visited there and we actually discussed moving there before Chimpy came to power.

[zappaman]

22. what a coincidence, shoeempress

Just had lunch with a friend and discussed the exact same thing. His sons are nearing draft age and he and his whole family just recently checked out Vancouver and loved it. A beautiful piece of country!

[Doctor_J]

59. that's where we're headed

hopefully. Thre are 4 jobs in the Vancouver area that I can apply for. We have a fair sum of money stashed away, and Mrs. TOJ score pretty high on the Canadian immigation survey (can't find the link).

i live in chicago and have for 50 years or so, so the weather won't pose any problems. Plus we are looking for a little adventure.

IMO the end of the empire will come hard and soon. I was around for the civil rights movement, VN, nixon, and i don't want to spend my golden years living in fascism. the fact that smirky will get 50,000,000 votes in november is evidence of late-stage cancer of the greatest empire in history. i don't knwo which is the worst - his incompetence, his ignorance, or his corruption. Combining his truly malevolent regime with the complete takeover of the media, and this simply cannot last very long.

[madmax]

5. I'm thinking about it, also.

Or maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis. I think not.

A while back I bought a book about living in Costa Rica. I don't know. Canada appeals to me for many reasons except for the cold. Maybe we should just hang tight for now.

Sometimes I think this is what it felt like to be a Jew in Germany in the 40's. You know you should leave but, it's such a huge decision. I guess they kept thinking, how much worse can it get. Until it was too late.

[theKnave]

8. Emigrating to Costa Rica...

Requires USD$50,000 for investment into the country. A friend of mine is moving there (his wife grew up there, and her family still lives there) for a few years. No, it's not election related.

When he and his wife married, they agreed to live in the US for a while. She's now naturalized, so they are moving down there for a while. She's expecting their second child any day now, so she has already moved down with their other children (one together, one of his from a previous relationship). The baby will be born in Costa Rica, so s/he will have dual citizenship, and it will be easier for them to travel back and forth.

However, when they were first looking to move, over a year ago, they found out that in order to receive permanent residenct status in Costa Rica, you have to bring USD$50,000 with you. This isn't a bribe, and doesn't go to the government. You just have to put it into the bank, and hopefully (for Costa Rica) invest it into local businesses. At least, that's my understanding of the situation. My friend is planning on openning a steakhouse restaurant.

[madmax]

9. I would sell my house so I could put the 50k

in the bank or whatever they want as long as I get to keep it, lol. The thing that turned me off was the price of buying furnishings and the hassle to get them. Seems a bit daunting according to the book I have. And real estate isn't that cheap, either.

I just don't think I'm cut out for that much of a laid back life-style. Please, God let Kerry win. I'm too old for this

[theKnave]

11. re: "I would sell my house so I could put the 50k"

That's pretty much what they are doing.

[bushalert]

40. SORRY GRINGOS

We are not very welcome anywhere!!!! Not Spain, Costa Rica, France....NOT EVEN CANADA

[arcos]

46. Yes, you are welcome here in Costa Rica...

At least by most of the people.

[ripplingwater]

72. I'm not really considering leaving

but what sort of price ranges does one see there? What's the cost of living like? Climate?

[ilovenicepeople]

77. and your welcome here in Canada

fellow DUers Welcome to Vancouver island.

[TommyO]

127. I was thinking that myself...

Find a nice guy up in Toronto and marry him (now that same-sex marriage is pretty much the deal up there)!

[Swamp Rat]

91. ¡Pura vida!

Me falta Costa Rica muy mucho (San Ramón, San José, Puntarenas, y especialmente Guanacaste), pero quero vivir lá no Brasil. É porque as meninas Brasileiras (me gusta Ticas también) e a música, como o chôro e o forró que eu gosto. Pues, tengo muchos amigos en Costa Rica entonces peudo vivir aí... probalmente cerca de Alajuela o Irazú.

[arcos]

101. pura vida!

Es bueno encontrarse a alguien más que ha estado por acá!

¿Viviste en Costa Rica?

[Swamp Rat]

104. Sí, vea el posto #103.

Este es el primero vez que estoy escribiendo y hablando el español hace mucho tiempo. Estoy acostombrado hablar o portugües agora.

[tuvor]

90. DUers are definitely welcome in Canada!

Just don't let the freepers tag along.

In Nelson, BC, they're erecting a monument to the Vietnam draft dogers.

Vancouver Island's pretty nice, too.

Hi from Courtenay, BC!

[fudge stripe cookays]

123. Where have you traveled recently?

It's our government they hate. The citizens in most places are still quite warm to Americans and understand what we're up against.

Those of us that are liberal and explain to them all we've been doing are welcomed with open arms. I travel to Canada frequently, and have never had a rude word.

FSC

[KoKo]

12. I hear good things about Costa Rico...a business friend has family there

and says it's great. I always looked on it as a "Banana Republic" and discounted it. I worry about Bushies there involved with CIA destabilizing SA and Mexico...when they've finished with the American Continent..but at least one might get a few years out of Costa Rico without "hurricanes & Bushies?"

I'll check it out. Thanks.

[arcos]

50. we have no hurricanes...

once in a while one gets nearby, but we've never had a direct hit.

[shanti]

67. no hurricanes

but poisonous snakes and "beef worms"! that's enough to keep me out of central america!

[KoKo]

69. What about Cockroaches...I'm deathly afraid of them. Don't they have

those "hissing ones?"

[LosinIt]

98. don't know about hissing, but I saw them up to 3 inches long

yikes.

[shanti]

155. never heard of them in CA

aren't they from madagascar?

[Digit]

169. Me, too! I would have heart failure!

[arcos]

71. hrmm, I've never seen a poisonous snake outside of the zoo...

and I don't know anyone who has been a victim of a beef worm...

Unless you live in very remote and rural areas, I don't think you have anything to fear.

[Swamp Rat]

94. Pues, yo he visto la rana roja en el bosque lluvioso...

Creo que no hay más (son extinto) esta rana y el sapo dorado, pero cuándo fui buseando cerca del Proyecto Papagayo, he visto muchos de los tiburones (cabeza Martilla)... ¡Pero vale la pena busear para el cambute!

[arcos]

102. No se sabe si las ranas doradas están extintas...

Primero se suponía que sí, pero luego unos científicos se encontraron unas en el bosque. Es posible que sí lo estén, pero sino, realmente quedan muy pocas.

[Swamp Rat]

103. Es una lástima. Son muy "boniticos."

He visto la rana roja en Carrillio Barrillio (spelling?) en 1993 y muchas cosas en Manuel Antonio... descúlpame si el español es muy mal (viví en Costa Rica y hize estudios el la Universidad de Costa Rica en San Ramón y yo estaba casado con una Guanecasteca para 5 años), pero después que vivir no Brasil, é mais facil falar e escrever em portugües. No sé que está passando... necessito bocas y cervezas para un mes, yo creo... pejiballe con mayonesa, gallopinto, e una Imperial.... y el café...

[arcos]

163. tu español no es malo...

Se te entiende muy bien, especialmente para tener tanto tiempo de no practicarlo!

Qué estuviste estudiando?

[Swamp Rat]

195. Darío, Borjes, Neruda Y Ticos también como

Anacristina Rossi, "La loca de Gandoca."

... Me falta Rún Centenário...

Ahora estoy tomando un doctorado en estudios urbanos (anthopology+sociology, quantitative and qualitative methodology)... me falta al gallopinto se le arrima un huevo picado con cebolla...

[shanti]

156. well, there are several sites

online about beef worms (fly bots). i know, i looked them up and saw the photos and that's enough for me! the tropics has lots of mosquitos which is how the infestation is started, from a mosquito bite.

i've seen rattlers personally, but their bites generally aren't fatal, especially in suburban areas, with easy access to medical care. however, the snakes i'm referring to in central america, coral snakes and fer de lance are the main ones, are VERY poisonous AND the fer de lance is also aggressive. i don't even want to know they're close by!

[arcos]

161. again, I think you're scared for nothing at all...

unless you are planning to live in very remote areas, neither beef worms nor poisonous snakes are common or a widespread problem.

I've lived here all my life, and as I said, I don't know anyone who's ever had a problem with beef worms or snakes.

[Swamp Rat]

93. ¿Y los vulcanos?

... como Arenal? Las piedras rojas son muy bonita por noche pero no me gusta los temblores de tierra.

[seventhson]

212. No = Remember Costa Rica won Nobel Prize: No standing army

best environmental record in the western hemisphere in terms of preserving the rainforests.

BEAUTIFUL National Park system.

Monteverde Cloud Forest where you can go look for the wild Quetzal (bird) , Toucans, troops and troops of howler, squirrel and capuchin monkees. Iguanas all over the place guzzling mangoes and pineapples and avocados and burping out the seeds.

Caribbean and Pacific Coasts are only a few hours drive apart. People in Cahuita and Eastern Costa Rica speak English (lots of Jamaican immigrants for the coffee plantations for many generations).

Black Volcanic Sand beaches.


Volcanoes.

Great University city in Alajuela (near San Jose).

WONDERFUL people. VERY civilized and also kind of European/Spanish architecture and very "old-worldy". People are activists and had little tolerance for the NordAmericanos supporting the contras -- but were so liberal that some baddies got away with too much since they were left alone (though ultimately busted by the government who wanted neutrality).


Me and my wife stayed at a little place near Manuel Antonio National Parque (SW on the Pacific side) called Plinio's where we saw three-toed sloths (close up too). toucans and peccaries in the wild. Hung out in our hammocks on the deck outside our room near the bar where they served fresh seafood "a la planka" (smoked on caribbean wood kinda like hickory over an open fire), and fresh fruit (pineapple, mango, papaya, strawberry guava, aguacate) and cheese and espresso and cuban bread for breakfast. About a half mile in the mountains up from the wild Pacific.

I would go there in a heartbeat if I had fifty grand and enough money to rent a place and work.

I would probably go to Canada first, though, because I am not ready to make my kids learn a new language and totally leave more than a roadtrip away from their friends..

[LosinIt]

95. There are two way to emigrate to CR, have a retirement of >$1000/month

or invest $50K in a preferred project (environmental or farming) or invest I think $250K in a project of your choosing.

[KoKo]

24. yes...that's the delemna...but the Rather thing was the "last straw," in

my "back pocket" hope.

I know I should leave...I've already lost so much support except here on DU...so when is the "tipping point?"

I'm not a 20 or 30 Something waiting for the fight...I have to think of my future and my family's future.

I do think it was like this in Nazi Germany. Do you stay and wait for it to "blow over," with a new person in power, or do you realize it's gone past that point and you will need others to come in and save your country.

GEEZE! I'm so centered and average...but I was raised believing in the Constitution of America and "Checks and Balances" where we would NEVER have another KING GEORGE!

I am so freakin' ordinary but now I'm like an "Anarchist/Anti-American threat to my old friends of more than 15 years and my family I've had for life.

Do I see what's real or do they...I can't take that chance, and need to plan.. I do NOT want to live through the 1940's ...NO WAY!

[ulysses]

6. send us a postcard

from wherever.

[KoKo]

14. I'll do better than that! I'll have a DU Houseparty! I'm very social as

long as the folks I invite are sympatico with ideals...

[ClintonTyree]

10. Canada is looking pretty good.......................

I live in Upstate New York so the weather in Ontario wouldn't be that much different. I think I'd rather watch the destruction of the United States from the North than being amid it.

Many will say, "stay and fight". I'm too damn old and tired to keep fighting these bastards. For me, the battle is over.

[ulysses]

17. would that

conservatives had moved out in the 60s, having decided that they were too tired, instead of developing a long-range plan like they did.

[Minstrel Boy]

35. Now there's an interesting observation.

I'm grateful, as a Canadian, for the influx of American leftists in the 60s and 70s. But it didn't exactly help the US.

[ulysses]

41. you see my point.

Canada doesn't need the help. We do.

Normally, I wouldn't be annoyed at the chicken little stuff, etc. But it's been a long day working with kids who could no more emigrate to save themselves than I can take wing and fly, and I find this (evidently) irresistable urge to flee damning on the part of the American left.

[The Traveler]

96. "Though we are not that strength"

"that once moved heaven and earth, and strove with gods ..."

Fuck it. Ya wanna live forever? No matter what ... let's stand and speak and fight. And if we are taken down, then we shall go down in good company.

[fudge stripe cookays]

125. It's very easy to say that

when you don't know others' circumstances.

Those who have children of draftable age they want to remove from this morass.

Those who want NO MORE of their tax money going to fund the morass.

While I admire your spunk and your fervor for staying and fighting, not all of us can do this for whatever reason.

I am married to a Canadian. His only "crime" was that he moved here to be with me because we were in love. If anything happened to him because of me, I could not live with myself.

And the older folks.... I completely understand them not wanting to die under a fascist boot. They've lived through this kind of crap before. They deserve some peace.

Your constant snarky remarks are not helping anyone.

Even many of the Jews in Germany saw the writing on the wall and got out. Do we begrudge Einstein, Chagall, or many of the others their escape? No...they remained alive to share their brilliance with us for a much longer period.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop judging people so harshly. You have not walked a mile in their shoes.

FSC

[democratreformed]

132. Tax money...

I'm afraid you won't be able to get away from that one. I remember reading that you have to pay U.S. income taxes for ten years after you move. Anyone else read or hear about this? Did I misunderstand?

[fudge stripe cookays]

136. I have not heard that in any of my checking,

and I have friends who are expats.

The only thing I know is that you cannot renounce your citizenship to avoid paying taxes. Because the government will assume that's why you are doing it, and refuse to recognize your renunciation.

If you simply become a permanent resident of Canada, you do not have to pay taxes to America because you are paying Canadian ones.

reprehensor did the reverse when he moved here. He simply paid taxes for the last year he lived in Canada. Now he and I have a combined account here.

[democratreformed]

139. Okay, thanks for the info.

Wish I could remember what I read that made me think that. Maybe they were just talking about passing something that would make that a law.

[fudge stripe cookays]

140. What better way

to screw those of us considering leaving, than contiuing to reap our tax money for their crusade?

Fuckers. I wouldn't put it past them at all.

FSC

[democratreformed]

145. Link to info

http://www.taxmeless.com/page4.html

US TAXATION OF AMERICANS LIVING ABROAD


by Don D. Nelson, Attorney at Law, CPA.








Your U.S. Income Tax Obligation While Living Abroad





As a U.S. expatriate residing in abroad, you still owe U.S. taxes each year on your worldwide income! The stories you hear from the fellow American expatriate sitting next to you at the bar that once you leave the U.S., you no longer owe any taxes or have to file tax returns , are about as true as most bar room tales. Its against the law to give up your U.S. citizenship in order to avoid U.S. taxes! Therefore, if you aren't filing your U.S. tax return, the statute of limitations on tax collections will not run out and your tax return obligation only grows greater as each year passes.

[ulysses]

209. mea culpa.

For all the similarities on the surface, this is not Nazi Germany, in a great variety of ways. It's simply not. I think people making plans to leave the country, at this stage in the game, is a wild overreaction and takes energy away from the fight, especially when there *is* no stated motive such as saving a child from military service - a motive, by the way, with which I couldn't argue.

But what do I know? You folks enjoy things wherever you wind up.

[Carolina]

130. I agree except

it took upwards of 30 years for them to get where they are, to snatch power in all 3 branches of gov't and to consolidate a media propaganda arm. They are dangerous and deadly, and they play dirty and for keeps.

I DON'T HAVE 30 MORE YEARS. I likely won't live to see the change we so desperately need and seek. And like KoKo, I see Nazi Germany written all over this only it's liberals and dissenters who'll be rounded up for a final solution.

Everyday, I ponder leaving but inertia about all that moving entails especially to another country overwhelms me. So I have other thoughts which I dare not print but does the word insurgency strike a chord with anyone?!

[NashVegas]

13. I'm Staying Right Here in the Bible Belt

Buddy, I have a front row seat for all the hijinks.

[yardwork]

66. Sitting right next to you!

These idiots are not going to run me out of my country. No way.

[RebelOne]

116. I'll be staying here, too.

Georgia, that is.

[DrWeird]

15. If things get bad I'll head to BC.

It's really not that cold. Vancouver only gets snow a few days out of the year. A bit rainy but very mild overall.

[HFishbine]

16. A little premautre, don't you think?

Can't hang with us for a few more weeks?

[Malva Zebrina]

18. we have discussed moving to Canada if Bush is elected.

Living in Maine we are used to the cold and actually like it as we are acclimated to this climate and do not feel well in oppressive heat of the more southern located climates.

I will not live under this evil man nor lend my name to any more of his evil fascism and killing. Since we are seniors, the idea of fighting in any way shape or form via a revolution is kind of silly because we do not have the stamina. If, that is, the people in 'America would even consider a revolution--their complacency in the last presidential election was horrific and the complacency of the Democrats in Congress--likewise and it simply, in all it's complacency, drifted over to the 2002 electons also. We are now left in the fight of our political lives to try to rescue our country from fascism, and given the mess over the last four years, it should not be. To this day, we cannot understand how this happened. We are agast that we have suffered through these years under this spoiled little bully boy,Bush without a single opposition offered to his evil policies from virtually anyone. We do not like being jerked around like this.

What defense do we have if Bush is elected? If the congress is so selfishly complacent seeking to preserve themself and their careers rather than the Constitution ,if the judiciary is also collabarative and is virtually unassailable by the people or held accountable by the people, and the military is under the control of Bush, what else it there to do but flee because for sure there will be tyranny, given the record of the past four years. We do not have missiles, planes or tanks or helicopters, guns or even a slingshot with which to revolt against this overwhelming , but evil, tyrannical power should Bush be elected.

I will not lend my name to continuous slaughter of innocent human beings for mere profit and power of the little prick of a priveledged ignorant and stupid incompetant twit, his Stepford, air head, also a twit, botoxed, chain smoking, manufactured wife, and vacant minded, law breaking, bordello dressing, spoiled, slutty and silly dumb daughters.

My family has been landed in this country since the early seventeenth century and were active yeoman and fighters , on the historical record as assisting in the American revolution. If it were today, they surely would not support this fascism.

Some loyalists did flee to Canada and that is where I will head also. Been there many times and love the country and the people there.

[sweetheart]

129. it pains to read what you say

I've forgotten the intensity of that sadness, being outside.
Dogs are running in the field.
Rolling and playing,
scratching with the satisfaction
that only a dog can somehow
feel at the bliss of a good scratch
totally consuming, innocent of political sadness

Little purile children have
hyjakked a nation i once thought
was an adult.
It is utterly shocking.
I am really at a loss for words.
Wars, mass murder, really no shit,
formenting anarchy and civil war
and horribly endangering any future
the once-great republic ever had
at being nobly regarded
or leading from the front
rather than the bottom
with total disregard for the universal human rights
for which it once lead the world in creating
a universe ago in 1948
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Ireland looks good. So does Spain.

[KoKo]

30. My ancestors came from England, France, Ireland. Time to go back?

France is about it...because with Blair tied to Chimp I don't see emigration back to where we all came from in my family as an answer since he's "joined at the hip in Empire" but I'm not sure about France as an alternative either...

Bush/America's endless WAR puts all of Europe in Peril. Either the terrorists start going after Blair..or our imploding economy gets all of Europe.

I'm very gloomy...too much so, maybe..but I think not..

[papau]

20. South of France, Greek Islands, Australia, many good choices!

[aebrain]

109. Australia?

Given that Australian PM John Howard and Opposition leader Mark Latham got into a p*ssing contest on TV to see who was tougher on terrorism, I don't think so.

No Bill of Rights here (apart from Queen Anne's , from the 17th century, ie pre-US Revolution) and much tighter libel laws. Say Bad Things about politicians here, and you can go to jail. In theory.
Voting is also compulsory.

I won't give my political opinions, as they would not be helpful and might offend.

John Howard was in Washington on 9/11, and has been very chummy with Bush ever since. About midway between Bush and Blair in the political spectrum.

On the other hand, Bob Brown of the Australian Greens should be Progressive enough for anyone.

[papau]

126. I like the country = If one can swim with "freshes" one should have no

problem replacing Howard!

My problem is that I can not tell fresh from Salt, so I am at the mercy of the native population!

Beautiful country in any case!

[sweetheart]

21. You're welcome to come check out scotland

There are some hurdles to jump to immigrate, but nothing next
to the horrorshow.

PM me if you are serious about checking it out, and i'll hook you up.

The temperature is temperate... hardly gets below freezing in the
coldest winter... minimal snow... spring arrives much earlier than
in most of america.... education is excellent and english is the
language...!

check out immigrating on www.scotland.gov.uk THere are some links
about university degress and staying on... bottom line, the scottish
executive (government) needs immigrants who want to make a healthy
life in a healthy country with a declining population.

best of luck to you koko01,
-s

[SomthingsGotaGive]

28. My Mother lives in Edinburgh and feels the same way I do here in Canada.

Scotland is truly Gods country.

I would recommend Scotland to anybody looking to settle down and start living life.

[G_j]

32. some of my ancestors are from Scotland

I've always wanted to visit that country. How welcome would a poor musician/artist in his fifties be?

[SomthingsGotaGive]

38. Even the English are welcome in Scotland....

And they invaded several times.
I'm sure you will receive the warmest welcome you could imagine.

[sweetheart]

43. the highland clearances helped create america...

and now there is a need for reverse immigration to re-populate.

I can't say specifics... age older is harder, needless to say, and
perhaps for some, just getting out of USA for 4 years or so, is all
that is really what they want.... and in that case, timing a
nice nifty university stint to coincide with 2005 coudn't hurt
a bit!

PM me global justice, and heck anyone who wants on DU, PM if you
visit scotland and i'll do what i can.

peace,
-s

[drfemoe]

39. hmm

I was going to say, I won't be leaving at all. Until I saw your post. Nice to have an interesting option. Thanks!

Still, I believe my destiny is in the good 'ole USofA.

[Obamarama]

42. I am not finding anything specifically addressing immigration at the site

Are you able to point us to something more specific. I did a search, and looked for an Office of Immigration but had no luck.

Thanks!

[sweetheart]

47. Its on the right margin

The trick, if there is such a thing, is to get in to a university
programme. This will allow you to migrate and get settled with the
assisance of a helpful and wholly positive school support, and when
you graduate, you can stay on and become a citizen if you wish.

http://www.scotlandistheplace.com/stitp/sco_display.jsp...

[TreasonousBastard]

53. I agree with that newbie who says...

Scotland is God's country.

Having lived in Germany and found some marvelous places to settle in Italy and France, I'd have to say that Scotland is the one place that I almost immediately felt at home in.

Haven't been to Ireland, but hear that's a very comfortable place, too.

Language isn't that much of a problem in most of Europe, since there are any number of expat communities with English as the lingua franca, but they tend to be a bit expensive in some areas. And, some countries, like Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Spain, I'd just rather visit than live in.

Ryanair makes it real easy to visit.

[Djinn]

75. temperate??

I'm Scottish (have lived in Australia though for most of my lief) and I love the place but it's so not temperate, last time I was back it was in Summer and I never took my jumper off. Scotland has many things that make it a great place to live - the weather (the rain and grey skies not just the cold) isn't the best selling point!

[sweetheart]

105. Yes you get used to that

The weather is temperate only when compared to canada and most of
the US... leave out florida, even texas has colder winters!

Its most like seattle weather... rain rain, very clean air, and
the cost, gray skies. No hurricaines. Very mild winters and lotsa
green green springs and gardens. As scotland's coastline is
absolutely massive, most living places are close to ocean, and that
makes them temperate... like coastal oregon.

Honestly, after living all over the US, i find scotland very nice,
and have no complaints about cold.... my only serious complaint is
the dark winters. At this latitude in north america, there are
polar bears and sea ice in the hudson bay.

If weather is cramping your style, australia/nz are the places for you.
If political refuge is your need, scotland can be a dandy if canada
is too cold and you don't speak another language.

[KoKo]

142. How do you deal with the Winters. Dark and cold...? (n/t)

[sweetheart]

153. silly story

I've designed and built over the past year a special light room

with huge windows facing the rugged ocean and a ceiling with

6 downlight light edison-screw fixtures. These i will put a mixture
of screw in bulbs, namely mains-halogen and sun-spectrum. It is
the hubris of architecture to build a warm tropical beach room
with a massive windows on to the north arctic coastline.

2. That houses are poorly oriented for solar energy and winter light
is the tragic folly of scottish architecture. WIth a newbuild, i'll
orient the house towards the south so that even at low-angles, the
sun creates a full-light feeling. The use of natural rooflight
to overcome SAD is totally unexplored, IMO in architecture.

I intend a house built to the actual solar orbits, so that in
darkest days, it is most lit, and in the 22 hour days, it shelters
more. Also, i'll have a large light source in the center of the
open middle of the house, so that from an artificial sun can make
the winter days slightly longer.

I'm a firm believer in technology and its merits. SAD is in my
sights... after a few years of trying various sunlamps.

[KoKo]

172. Thanks...I'm a big believer in orienting houses to take advantage of

the best sunlight throughout the year. I can't stand a dark house and probably do suffer from a touch of SAD...my Dad couldn't stand anything dark and spent as much time outside as he could.

I've noticed lately I can't stand to not be in the Sun...(could be a psycho reaction to Bush...or impending SAD's..I don't know) but Sun orientation of dwelling is a BIG issue to me.

I gravitate towards places that aren't cold...mostly because I need to be around sun, but also I like the ambiance of beaches and warm weather.

I don't like the thought of being isolated in a cold place where I have to be indoors all the time.

That's why I asked you. Your solution is very interesting. How to make a "cold view of a beach" more inticing by using light to camoflage your climate. Pretent you are in Hawaii using lights...

Might be a solution. Thanks!

[sweetheart]

182. In scotland its the animals as well

I think what balances the cold, is that it is a perfect climate for
the dogs, and that they are in scottish terrier heaven, they
keep me going in and out for pack reasons, barking at various
animals, tourists and the postman. Most of the folks i know have
several dogs, and the dogs compell you to walk around and get tactile
outdoors, as somehow their animus linkage to the earth compells
my own feeling of that root oneness. Then they all appear as dragons
in a very wise landscape of flaming golden spheres.

[Djinn]

170. I'm in Australia

not even warm enough HERE for my liking (in Melbourne) but then I'm a big girl's blouse when it comes to the cold!

[alilenas]

213. The UK is good, and possible

There are several visas you can enter the UK with. The best is under the Skilled Migrant Programme which works pretty well if you've got a lot of academic credentials, not so well otherwise. I like the e-book How to Arrive and Thrive in the UK (www.ukimmigrate.co.uk ). I didn't write it and have nothing to do with it but found it great preparation for actually making the move. (And from my point of view pretty accurate, the section on bank accounts is so realistic.)

I've thought about going back to the UK again and would if I needed to to save my kids. I'd sort of rather stay here and be annoying though until that gets too dangerous. Hopefully it won't.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

23. I have an extra room in a condo by the waterfront in Toronto.

And own a small biz. I would be happy to provide refuge for any person wishing to avoid an immoral draft for an immoral war.

I'm sure I could think of a reason I need to hire an American (one of the requirements).

I know lots of people here willing to give up space and luxury to help out our American neibours in trouble.(you have to learn Canadian spelling though)

[KoKo]

26. Thank you...PM me .. I've got a hubby working on Canadian connections

but as I said...it's cold. Toronto is near some family of ours, though...maybe we should reconsider Canada. I know they have put lots more restrictions on immigrants today...not like the 60's.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

36. Not enough posts to PM but...

The restrictions are a smoke screen if you really want to be here you still can.

There is NO immigration service hunting for Americans. We have several AWOL troops that have been here for a while and only made themselves know to authorities when they saw sympathetic results to immigration/refugee claims by other marines.

We will not permit Storm troopers rounding up deserters to send them off to their deaths. Thats a promise from several Canadian patriots I know.

[Pallas180]

79. SomethingsGotaGive - what a lovely heart you have - and to know that

the Canadians are protecting Americans from being sent off - I am so

moved.

Thank you Canadians.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

25. Can't we all just move to California and secede from the nation?

Or how about New Mexico... They tried to secede from the U.S. before....

[faithnotgreed]

27. dear koko - im not an oldie duer but i sure am sorry just the same

that youre feeling like this. i dont blame you certainly, just very sorry that youre feeling the things you are

i believe were going to do this. what im about to say here is not directed to you. you are saying that you cannot stay so this is directed to others incl myself:
as a duer from france said yesterday to someones question about moving to france: he said please dont move here. the world needs you to stay there and fight for the goodness and democracy that IS america. for those of you who care so deeply that you are part of this democratic underground, you are the people we need to stay there and not let it be completely overtaken by this or other like administrations

for me, i dont fit in either. among other things, im christian, green party, into alternative medicine and open transparent truthful govt. i dont "combine" right even within my family. but i see the possibilities since being a part of this great group of people on du (even if some would rather fight amongst ourselves sometimes, i still know that ultimately they want much of the same things as we all do)

i see countless examples of whats really possible now that we know the evil were dealing with.
just one crucial example: howard dean has gotten heavily involved to get good people into govt all across the country and have raised staggering sums of money and gotten staggering amounts of volunteers to put the right and decent people into office. we havent had that before, its unprecedented.

theres wesley clark and all the rest, i dont have to tell you
and im sure youre especially concerned about the media. we all are and should be. but we can be a voice for change for that too. there are literally millions of us who believe that we must fight for our nation and for our future, and will if need be.

for me, im fighting the good fight. and if hell or high water comes, i am going down swinging.

i wish you so very much on your new journey should you leave the country. i wish you peace and goodness wherever you may go.
you will be missed.

[KoKo]

33. faithnotgreed , thanks for your reply....I've fought hard against

the Bushies and what we are going through. If I had strong family with guns I'd go up into the NC Mountains and hide out until I could be with a "militia" to go after Bush.

I come from long line of fighters...Civil War/Revolutionary War... and England...But this time..it's too much.

Been here on DU fighting against this "junta" since the selection and fighting all my life against this crap from Viet Nam protests, etc.

I have to think of "quality of life" and leaving the fight to those who are behind me..tired.

[faithnotgreed]

56. i fully believe that you have fought well koko. i can also understand

that you are tired and world weary. no one should blame you for these feelings. this is a thoroughly corrupt group and they have shown their tentacles to be quite long.

may i ask if kerry wins would you still want to leave? just curious how youre seeing this. and sorry if this has already been asked/answered

again, im sorry you feel so tired that you need to leave. i can imagine thats what is the most disheartening part .... if there is such a thing

God bless you wherever you are led to go so you may find some peace.

[KoKo]

61. I want Kerry to win, but have doubts about our economic foundations

holding up. And, what's left of the country even with Kerry. The RW won't let up, they will go after Kerry just as they did with Clinton. Lots of Cable laughing and yucking it up about Kerry and Gingrich and PNAC on 24/7 saying how Kerry has screwed up even before he takes office and when he does they will attack night and day.

Unless Kerry comes in and immediately orders "Special Prosecutor to Investigate why we Invaded Iraq and all the other Bush Crimes including finding and realeasing Cheney's Energy Meetings, I think it will be 4 years of what we had with Clinton in his last days and more of the last years with Bush with biased media.

I'll give it until the Spring, because it will take that long to get my stuff in order here and my house on the market. But, I think March is when we make our move.

I'm just too sick of it. Want a place without all this hate and greed and lack of caring for each other.

[democratreformed]

134. We need a leader...

and organization. Where can I look? Any good organizations or leaders who are active? I know the most common ones (moveon, ACT, etc) - but are there others - perhaps even more active ones?

Maybe I am just in the wrong state (Arkansas) or wrong area of the state, but I don't see any real activity here. I would have to travel 300 miles or more to go to an anti-war demonstration.

[BrotherBuzz]

29. I'm going to stay slug it out...

but my ten-yer-old son has been offered a safe haven by my (exchange student) brother at his undisclosed overseas location if it gets to that. With my son out of the equation, I will have a renewed vigor to fight the enemy within. I don't give up easily when the cause is worth fighting!

[jcappy]

31. Au Canada???

How hard is it to settle there? Does health insurance kick in?

In lieu of Quebec, I have considered right next to the border, where i could kind of entertain a dual citizenship. Dream of biking back and forth as me emotions suggest (thinking of the rural areas near Native territory).

Tired of fighting--like so many.

[Rowdyboy]

34. No place to go, and my partner will never give up this old house...

Guess we'll be here 'til they put us on trucks headed to the concentration camps.

[KoKo]

51. Maybe you've created a "peaceful island" for yourself where you are...I

wish that I could have found that place..and I know you are in a conservative area..but, it's good you've found "your spot" to stay and fight...I wish I had found mine but it must be somewhere beyond for me.

Short of having guns and living on the "mountain." I don't think given who I am...I can do more after this election...It will be dark times beyond..no mountain can contain the mental torment these folks have affected me with. It's me, and my hubby, partner.

[Rowdyboy]

55. I think we have a "peaceful island" but to keep it, we maintain a very

low profile. Its not that I'm wild about staying here, its just that we have my partner's 84 year old mom to deal with; and a big, old unfinished house, and my partner can't retire for two more years....

I have no right to complain. So many don't have the basic comforts I enjoy, or the acceptance I experience. All I can do is hope for the best.

[KoKo]

62. I think there will be "pockets" of survival. You sound like you're okay..

I don't have that option...wish I did and I will search here before I leave.. Holing up in the NC Mountains with a shotgun and electified fence just doesn't do it for me though...

[OneTwentyoNine]

37. Oh brother...another one of these posts?

Yeah hell,after Reagan demolished Dem's in 80 and 84 we should have all given up and moved to Canada. BS,we got back in the fight and elected a real leader like Bill Clinton.

Jesus,did we really have $230 billion in the bank when Clinton left?? How fast junior pissed all that away and billions more.

David

[Bluebear]

45. I submit this is far, far different than Reagan

Reagan was happy to let gays die, of course, but he didn't legislate against them. This bible-thumpin' bunch would be as glad to send them to "Freedom camps" to appease their fundy base whilst laughing all the way to the bank. I've seen a lot of sentiment for shooting "liberal's" between the eyes too from the far right crowd. Am I alarmed? Not yet, but am getting very "concerned" as the right likes to say.

[Pallas180]

82. Dave - we had more than 5 trillion in the bank when Clinton left - dumbas

gave that to his oil buddies as tax refund gifts - and then he spent another 7 trillion and got us into debt now for 12 trillion dollars .

But we were in debt from the republicans when Big Dawg came in, and he cleared it up in less than 8 years.....so - all may not be lost.

[smirkymonkey]

44. What about Mexico?

I want to get out of here too, but I am thinking Europe. My paternal grandparents came over from Italy, so I wonder if they'd take me. Great, great grandparents came from Holland & England, but I think I am too far removed.

I might just GO and see what happens. I know enough people so that I could hop around for awhile and not stay too long in one country.

[Pallas180]

84. SMIRKY- I love Italy and the people,but u need to know-they are FAR RIGHT

they still love Mussolini - and I'm not kidding you -

[smirkymonkey]

149. Really?

Oh well, scratch Italy off the list.

What about all the peace demonstrators though?

[dumpster_baby]

204. They WILL take you in Italy

You can move there if you can prove heritage. Although from what I hear it is a bit hard to make a living there.....

[KoKo]

48. Thanks for the suggestions and support and those who said "why

leave" stay and fight.

This is very serious and I don't take wanting to leave, lightly. And, I'm so mainstream, it's sad to even say this. But Rather was the last straw.

I'll vote...but to stay here and fight this out for decades..well, I think there are folks behind me who are on the right path...that's why I said DU Oldies.

OMG..it's not like I'm decrepit on SS or something...it's just I've fought for years...and one get's tired when there's no support except from DU folks and liberal sites on the internet...It's an "energy level"thing and that I'm not a kid anymore...gotta think forward..

[madmax]

49. You're ok KoKo

[KoKo]

63. Thanks...so are all you guys...We're all in this together...just some have

different time frames and needs. 's

[Kanary]

106. "We're in this together"....?

How is this being "together"?

What I see is USians doing the same things they have always done..... find individual solutions. Do I understand people who can wanting to escape? Sure! But, what is really getting to me is the same thing I've seen throughout this whole mess, including the primary campaign -- very little concern at all for those who will die first...... the very poor folk. Where is *any* mention of them at all?

There's a lot of concern about gay folk, and being rounded up. So, they are included in the "together". But, where is any concern about those who will almost certainly be offed first, because it is so easy to do. Anyone at all who will speak out for poor folk? I don't hear ANYTHING.

There was a time when Dems had much concern for those on the bottom rung. That time is long gone.

It's left me with ZERO ambition to work for party concerns........... I don't see any hope left at all that there is going to be a resurgence of concern for those you consider beneath you.

So, what we're likely to see is more and more concentration on saving each individual hide, and complete amnesia about those who are STUCK.

Kanary

[Senior citizen]

54. My parents used to say you can't solve problems by running away.

But they were Jewish and the only relatives they had still alive were the ones who ran away from the pogroms in Russia and from Nazi Germany. The rest died. Of course my parents were also lying fascists, so you couldn't believe anything they said anyway.

I am not in a position to run. I outlived my usefulness and my expected life span 40 years ago. Even under the best possible circumstances, i.e., Kerry wins, we get a Democratic controlled Congress and Supreme Court, etc., etc., unless I'm lucky enough to get into a hospice, I can only look foward to an extremely painful death, whether I'm beaten to death by fascists or just not given sufficient painkillers when I become terminally ill.

What I worry about is that I have a daughter who is pregnant. She was given up for adoption at birth, 41 years ago, and I don't really know her, but she tracked me down and contacted me a few months ago. She and her lesbian partner are very well-to-do. The partner is the daughter of Holocaust survivers, and they are both liberal feminists. If Kerry wins, I assume my grandchild has a chance at a very good life. If not, I think their money insulates them so well from reality that they won't leave. From Holocaust to Holocaust in 3 generations? Mind-boggling, but entirely possible. I feel exactly as many here do, that we're sticking around for the election, but perhaps we should have left a long time ago.

[Habibi]

57. I understand wanting to leave

but I don't see it in my own future. So, I'll stay and, if necessary, become part of the underground. The . . . democratic underground.

[LifeDuringWartime]

58. game over, man, game over!

whether or not bushco are still in the white house this time next year or not, i believe that they will still be brought to justice for their crimes

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. Koko...Here's a fantastic resource for people wanting to escape the U.S.

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/62/efam62.html

Live Where You Want To Live! ~ Live How You Want To Live! ~ And Make Money Doing It!

Escape From America Magazine September 2004


Welcome to Volume Six Issue Number Nine - September 2004


About this Newsletter: You have received this newsletter because you subscribed or requested a subscription at www.EscapeArtist.com Removal instructions are at the bottom of the newsletter
Go Directly To The Online Index -Go To The Online Index Page -
We Did It! - Part Deux ~ Moving To New Zealand ~ by Rick Adams - In our case the challenge is the New Zealand Immigration Service, the NZIS, and the romance is with a country, New Zealand. Since I’m happily married, there won’t be any illicit affairs or anything. And in case my wife is reading this, “Hi honey, I love you!” And when I say “challenge” with the NZIS, I mean it in the most positive manner. And in case the NZIS is reading this, “Hi honey, I love you!”
Growing Healthy In Sardinia ~ Europe's Healthiest Population ~ by Emma Bird - Sardinians do indeed look much younger than they are. My boyfriend is 37 and friends who haven’t yet met him expect him to arrive in prim, conservative clothes. “Dove Mario? Where’s Mario then?” Valentina asked me in the Cagliari gelateria where we were celebrating her birthday. “Over there”, I replied, pointing to a normal-looking bloke that just happened to be my boyfriend. “Oh” she said, “But I thought he was old. He just looks like one of us.”
Opening A Business In Rome ~ One Expatriate’s Observations ~ by Sarah Yeomans - My first impression of Rome was that it was a lawless land, where you could make up the rules as you went along, as long as it didn’t attract the attention of the occasionally alert police officer or government official. Everything around me seemed to reinforce this impression, from the “creative” parking solutions, such as parking on a curb, to the seemingly helter-skelter methods of immigration control.

Swiss Rental Cows ~ Get Your Own Cow ~ By Bonnie Burns - In the past decade, more than a quarter of Switzerland’s family farms have gone out of business. Those that remain find creative ways to generate extra revenue. One such enterprising family leases out their cows during the alpine summer grazing. What do you get out of the deal? Visitation rights, if you are willing to drive up into the Alps to visit your ward.
How To Prepare For Living And Working In Russia ~ More On Living In Russia ~ by Jon D. Ayres - Want to come to work as a Native speaking English teacher in the Russian Federation? Getting a visa, temporary residence visas, and work permits here in Russia is not easy if you choose to do it on your own. It is a long, drawn out process that discourages a lot of people and many end up giving up and leaving. It is better to come here on the invitation of a school or other business and let them handle it all. The following is only my experience of dealing with Russia’s visa process.
Holding The Line Down Under ~ More From New Zealand ~ by Candy Green - Think about the word “line” and all its applications! This past week, while reading the newspaper and wandering around Christchurch, these thoughts have amused me. What was there to see, read and experience in this mountain top nation? A telephone line, a railway line, a tramline, a beeline, keeping kids in line, that line on the face, staying to the left of the line and, of course, the fault line.
Expats Now Can Call Home For Less ~ Long-Distance Rates ~ by Dennis Grant - For many people living abroad, the cost of long-distance service means carefully monitoring how often they call friends and family. An evolving technology called Broadband Internet Telephony is changing all that. Calls carried over the Internet, and not a traditional phone line, avoid many regulatory fees, allowing heavily discounted prices.
RETURNING HOME AIN’T EASY BUT IT SURE IS A BLESSING ~ Back To Ghana ~ by IMAHKÜS - Ahead of us loomed this enormous, foreboding structure. The sight caused me to tremble; I almost didn't want to go inside. The outer walls were chipped and a faded and moldy white exterior. The sea had eaten away some of the mortar. It was gray and dismal as we climbed the steep steps, following the sign leading to the reception area. When we entered the reception area of the Cape Coast Castle Dungeons a smallish man with a bright smiling face met us.
You want to live overseas and travel overseas, but how do you make a living? - Become A Travel Writer - Our own magazine is looking for a specific type of writer and we've been actively seeking a solution. We asked International Living Magazine about finding writers and they provided us with an answer. We wrote about this concept in a recent issue of our magazine; it includes a travel writers course in Paris, France - as well as additional venues. It is very much worth reading this article to see if it may apply to you. Making a living as a travel writer is one of those ways of having your cake and eating it too
Asset Havens Panama: Still the World’s Most Useful Asset Haven ~ By Robert Bauman - Panama continues as one of the world’s best tax and asset protection havens, and it also offers several options for tax-advantaged residency. That’s a considered opinion The Sovereign Society has espoused for several years, based on hard facts about this strategically located central American isthmus, the so called “Land Between the Seas,” best known for its famous canal.
High Yield Bank Trading Programs ~ 72%+ Per Annum ~ by Brian Gilbert - High Yield Investing is not a new thing, It has been around for many years, but has previously been reserved for the ultra wealthy. The following is an extract from information that explains briefly, how