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mac56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:40 PM
Original message
Debunking help, please.
I need a good, succinct answer to this comment in a LTTE. I've searched the DU archives, looked at Snopes, googled it, to no avail.

Here's the comment:

"Clinton imposed regime change in Syria: good. President Bush imposed regime change in Iraq: bad."

Please help -
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Did we have a war with Syria?
Funny, I don't remember that.

Maybe it's the style that counts?
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Catfight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. two words, "Pre-emptive war."
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Syria?!?
The old king died, his son took his place. Clinton did nothing to make that happen, so my response would be WTF???
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hunh? What regime change in Syria???
Am I missing something? Should it be 'Serbia'?
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yep, should be "Serbia"
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I'm not sure how to debunk the Serbia issue
I think the distinction between intervention to stop ethnic cleansing\genocide (Serbia) vs. intervention to effect regime change (Iraq) is problematic once you start thinking about it.

I was deeply troubled by Clinton's intervention in Serbia, as it too came without U.N. sanction. (Russia would have vetoed any Security Council Resolution, however.)

The reason I think the distinction is problematic is that one of the reasons for regime change in Iraq was, at least on its surface, similar to that given for regime change in Serbia, i.e., Baathist oppression of Shiite population is similar to Serbian oppression of Bosnian Muslims.

Still noodling on this. Would love to hear the DU take on it.



Coalition of the Unwilling
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Well, Serbia was certainly more timely
Bush can't argue he went in to stop the slaughter of a group of people that had happened years previously.

There was little "why now???" in Clinton's decision. In fact, if anything it was "why did you wait so long?"
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Good point (sorry for the multiple posts of identical text)
My browser and I got confused as to which post we were replying to.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. That's ok... I figured you weren't "sure how to debunk it"
I mean REALLY REALLY weren't sure.

The REAL answer is that there's always a little hypocrysy in politics. We always view the actions of "our guy" differently than the other guy.

Just look at the recent "connections" between the GOP and a particular 527 group. Obviously there is SOME connection... they have the same goals. But the DNC actualy had stuff on their website talking about "partnering" with ACT and Kerry himself supposedly attended some of the MoveOn parties. WE don't see THAT as "coordination", but the other side is blind to an attourney serving both groups.

Welcome to politics.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I'm not sure how to debunk the Serbia issue
I think the distinction between intervention to stop ethnic cleansing\genocide (Serbia) vs. intervention to effect regime change (Iraq) is problematic once you start thinking about it.

I was deeply troubled by Clinton's intervention in Serbia, as it too came without U.N. sanction. (Russia would have vetoed any Security Council Resolution, however.)

The reason I think the distinction is problematic is that one of the reasons for regime change in Iraq was, at least on its surface, similar to that given for regime change in Serbia, i.e., Baathist oppression of Shiite population is similar to Serbian oppression of Bosnian Muslims.

Still noodling on this. Would love to hear the DU take on it.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm not sure how to debunk Serbia issue
I think the distinction between intervention to stop ethnic cleansing\genocide (Serbia) vs. intervention to effect regime change (Iraq) is problematic once you start thinking about it.

I was deeply troubled by Clinton's intervention in Serbia, as it too came without U.N. sanction. (Russia would have vetoed any Security Council Resolution, however.)

The reason I think the distinction is problematic is that one of the reasons for regime change in Iraq was, at least on its surface, similar to that given for regime change in Serbia, i.e., Baathist oppression of Shiite population is similar to Serbian oppression of Bosnian Muslims.

Still noodling on this. Would love to hear the DU take on it.

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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Here
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 12:52 PM by demnan
I just debunked this letter in an email to a friend:

Here's the original letter:

> ----- Original Message -----
> Subject: Fw: Confusing . . .
>
>
> >
> >
> > I'm trying to get all this political stuff straightened out in my
> > head
so
> > I'll know how to vote come November. Right now, we have one guy
> > saying
one
> > thing. Then the other guy says something else. Who to believe. Lemme
see,
> > have I got this straight?
> >
> > Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
> > Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad... Clinton
> > spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good... Bush spends 87 billion
> > in Iraq - bad... Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
> > Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
> > Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists -
> > good...
> > Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...
> > Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...
> > Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...
> >
> > Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
> > Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...
> >
> > Clinton says mass graves in Serbia - good...
> > Entire world says WMD in Iraq - bad...
> > No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
> > No WMD found Iraq - bad...
> >
> > Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good... Economy slows
> > under Bush - bad... Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden -
> > good... World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...
> > Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...
> > Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...
> >
> > Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
> > Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
> > Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good... Bush
> > destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad... Milosevic not yet
> > convicted - good... Saddam turned over for trial - bad...
> >
> > Ah, it's so confusing!
> >
> >
> >
Here's my response:


Clinton isn't running for President, John Kerry is. Bush must run on his record. Kerry doesn't have to run on Clinton's. Hope this clears up the confusion.

Are you better off today than you were four years ago? Then you must be very rich.

If that ain't enough here's some refuting for you:

1. When Clinton awarded a contract to Halliburton, Al Gore was not receiving checks from them. Therefore it could be assumed that it was honestly done. Cheney however still receives checks from his old company and everytime a contract is awarded to Halliburton he benefits financially.

2. We were asked to go into Bosnia to prevent ethnic cleansing. By doing so, we saved millions of lives.

3. We were not asked to go into Iraq. UN Inspectors were there trying to determine whether there were WMD, they did not get a chance to complete this task because the Bush administration was so anxious to invade.

4. Clinton didn't commit felonies in office, Clinton lied about sex. All the Republicans who were frothing at the mouth to impeach him also had extramarital affairs. Gingrich and Livingston had to resign from the House of Representatives because they were soon to be exposed in the media with their own sins and hypocracy.

5. It's still the economy stupid. Under Clinton people had jobs. Bush is the first President since Herbert Hoover under whom there were more jobs lost than created. The Stock Market bust in 2000 was due to over estimating the wealth created by Internet start-up companies. But under Clinton, people still had jobs in IT. Under Bush, all these jobs are going to India.

6. No liberal I know thinks what Bush did in Afghanistan was bad. The only problem was, he was so set on Iraq, he didn't finish the job there. When Clinton tried to bomb in Afghanistan and Sudan, the Republican traitors in Congress said it was "Wag the Dog". They accused him of trying to deflect attention away from the stupid impeachment trial. If the Republicans in Congress and Tenent their buddy in the CIA had not been so set on impeaching him, perhaps Clinton could have done more. As it was, a terrorist attempt in 2000 was deflected by the Clinton administration.

7. Where is Osama bin Laden? Why is al Quaida allowed to grow again? Why does the Bush family have such close ties to the Bin Laden family? Why did Bush wait 20 minutes in a classroom with children while our country was being attacked?

8. Bush is accountable for the disasterous state our country has been in the past four years. Hopefully the country will hold him accountable and vote him out. If not, I would certainly have to question the entire electoral process in this country.

There, hope that helps.

Nancy

(I edited to remove an email address)
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. That's a hell of a response, demnan.
Mind if I use that with some Republican friends?
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. My pleasure!
please use freely. I was on a roll that day.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. "There, hope that helps....Nancy"
Helped me...thanks! :thumbsup:
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nyhuskyfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. There's only one U.S. president ever convicted of a felony
As he's currently in office.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. NATO
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nyhuskyfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
14. A better comparison would be Sudan
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 01:30 PM by nyhuskyfan
Clinton imposed regime change in Serbia - good
Bush imposing regime change in Sudan - would be good, if we had any troops left to do it

There can be very little doubt of our motives in Serbia -- although reasonable people can disagree. Our own leadership's reasons for the war in Iraq keep changing over and over again. And we aren't keeping thousands of troops on the ground in Serbia to try to bilk them of natural resources that we need.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here's how I would do it.
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 01:30 PM by gmaki
Clinton imposed regime change in Serbia - Bad
Bush imposed regime change in Iraq - Bad

Don't vote for either one in November.


Edit to correct misquote of original message.
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TryingToWarnYou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. ROFL..good answer.
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Village Idiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. Clinton's Syria Memo - SATIRE
The New York Times, December 1, 2000
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Clinton's Syria Memo
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
emo to: Bashar al-Assad, president of Syria

From: Bill Clinton

Dear Bashar,

Since I will be leaving office soon, time is short, and I need to be blunt. I think you're playing with fire and are perilously close to making the biggest mistake of your short political life. I'm talking about Shabaa Farms. I told my National Security Council staff yesterday that whoever my successor is needs to know that the most dangerous spot in the world today, the most likely stage for a big war, is not the Taiwan Strait, not the DMZ between North and South Korea, not Kashmir. It's Shabaa Farms.

You know what I'm talking about. Israel unilaterally withdrew all its troops from Lebanon last spring in accordance with U.N. Resolution 425. The Lebanon-Israel boundary line Israel withdrew to was personally certified by U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan. And the U.N. stated clearly that Shabaa Farms — this little stretch of frontier at the intersection of the Israeli, Lebanese and Syrian borders — was part of the Syrian Golan Heights, now occupied by Israel. Therefore, it should not have been returned to Lebanon by Israel, but should be returned to Syria as part of any Israeli-Syrian Golan peace deal.

Despite that U.N. verdict, you have encouraged the Lebanese Shiite militia, Hezbollah, to keep launching raids against Israel at Shabaa Farms, claiming it's Lebanese territory, even though your official maps always showed it as part of Syria.

Bashar, I know you're taking advice from your dad's old adviser Farouk Sharaa, from your tutor from the General Intelligence Directorate, Bahajat Suleiman, and from your brother-in-law, Gen. Asef Shawkat, who all believe that the only way to get the Israelis to do a deal on the Golan, on Syria's terms, is to keep bleeding them from Lebanon. And I also know that you think you're actually behaving in a very controlled fashion. You've told the Palestinians in Lebanon they're not allowed to operate in the border area, so they don't do something crazy. And you've told Hezbollah that all their attacks must be confined to Shabaa Farms. And Hezbollah is very disciplined. I even noticed at the Cairo Arab summit you publicly used the word "Israel," which your father never liked to do, and you referred directly to Prime Minister Ehud Barak. I'm not deaf.

I know you think you're signaling Barak, in your brutal Syrian way, that you want to resume negotiations — but you are using totally unstable chemicals. And if one of these Hezbollah raiding parties somehow slips through Shabaa Farms and into northern Israel, Israel will not let you change the rules of the game and move the war from southern Lebanon into northern Israel. Here's what the Israelis told me they would do in response: Israel will attack every Syrian tank and missile battery inside Lebanon. But in order to do that Israeli jets will also have to destroy the Syrian radar and missile batteries just inside Syria that also cover Lebanese airspace. That means a Middle East war. Goodbye, Syria. Goodbye, Nasdaq. Hello, oil crisis.

Bashar, did your late father ever tell you what Barak did last year? One night, it was about 3 a.m., Israeli F-15 fighter jets, using Israeli-designed electronic countermeasures and laser-guided smart rockets, flew into Lebanon in the dark of night and blew up 10 tanks belonging to your Palestinian guerrilla pal Ahmed Jabril. Do you know how many rockets the Israeli jets fired in the dark to knock out those 10 tanks? Eleven. Do you know how accurate that is? You couldn't score that high in Nintendo.

I know you think the Israelis have gone soft, Bashar, but you could be dead wrong. Barak is in a tense political battle. Many Israeli generals believe Israel's deterrence capability has been badly eroded and they may need to put on a real sound and light show that will demonstrate to the whole region just how sophisticated its air force has become. You could suffer a huge blow. And with you now moving closer to Iraq — reopening the Iraqi oil pipeline through Syria, renewing trade with and flights to Baghdad and holding secret discussions with Saddam Hussein about Iraqi backing for Syria in the event of an Israeli attack — neither George W. Bush nor Al Gore will protect you.

Bashar, your dad was a master at manipulating people around him. Be careful that you don't become the puppet of your father's puppets. It will end badly for you, and even worse for Syria.

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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. Fear the Mighty Clenis!
You thought Papa Doc's Ton-ton Macoutes were bad? The Mighty and Fearful CLENIS rules all mystical and occult political engines of evil!

O little man! Bow down before your infernal Master!

Fear the Mighty Clenis!

--bkl
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. Hey, I also read that drivel in the Banner Herald today!
How about that idiot last week who cited Coulter as a credible source?
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