US troops shot two young Iraqi's for loitering and breaking curfew

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20030823/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Guerrillas Kill 3 British Troops in Iraq

<snip>Aberle said U.S. troops wounded two young Iraqis Friday night after curfew in Dhuluaiyah, 43 miles north of Baghdad after they came upon a group of 17 young men loitering at a gas station.

When troops arrived, the men began to run, she said. After soldiers fired two warning shots, 15 of the group stopped, but the two who continued to run were shot in the legs. All were detained and being questioned.

more

[Kamika]

1. Actually thats a good thing.

We should have put up a curfew ASAP, then none of the looting etc would have happened, a strong curfew is A and O in a occupation. Its good to see we finally started to follow some basic military laws.

A strong curfew would also have helped speed up the reconstruction of the country.

[Generic Other]

2. Do you have children?

Would you like to see them shot for violating curfew?

[Kamika]

3. no

But this is a war, and as bad as it sounds in a war the ruleset is different. Alot more ppl got hurt because we didnt put up a good curfew immediately.

[Generic Other]

4. Ever shoot someone in the back?

That's an American value. How is someone who is running away a threat. If you shot a burgler running away from the scene of the crime, you would be in jail.

Do they give out medals in the Army for such brave actions? Good war story to bring home. Ought to provide years of nightmares and psychological trauma.

[iamalevi2]

7. Please

You've obviously never been in any such situation personally. Let me now ask you something ridiculous, "Would you have shot "insert any infamous name here" in the back if they were running away and your action may save otheres in the future?" (Few examples, John Gacy, Ted Bundy, the DC sniper, any child molester)

[corarose]

9. John Wayne Gacy was a law abiding Republican citizen

No comparison.

[Nomad559]

20. Gacy

I'm not 100% sure, but I recall reading somewhere that John Wayne Gacy was a registered Democrat.

But Ted Bundy and most of the other serial killers were registered RePUGlicans.

[Kamika]

12. Its a principle

Anyone that moves out after a certain time does it illegally and will get shot, this in order to make it safe for the majority.

[leesa]

29. Bullshit! How do you know that??

Why do you assume it was illegal? Remember that WE are the bad guys in this situation. The Iraqis were minding their own business and complying with UN sanctions when we viciously attacked them.

[bpilgrim]

11. would you support the japanese actions in china during the 30's?

sounds like it.

peace

[bpilgrim]

13. or in korea during that time...

the japanese soilders were of course only trying to RESTORE ORDER to the cities they captured.

the language they used then is remarable for what WE americans use NOW.

:hi:

peace

[cosmicdot]

19. when was "war" declared?

anyhoo, didn't it become the "Battle" of Iraq ... in the ever-changing garbage coming out of this criminal appointedstration ... Mission Accomplished ... get the hell out of Iraq ...

we have no legal authority being there ... the sovereignty of Iraq overrides anything bunnypants is illegally doing ... occupying rules 'do not apply' ...

[leesa]

28. It isn't a war. It is liberation...we are their friends, remember?

[iamalevi2]

5. Agreeed with number one on principal!

On a personal level anyone would have to answer your question with a "no". As a practical matter your response borders on the rediculous. You can't individualize an event like a curfew. The overall benefit to many out-ways the needs of the few (borrowed that from Spock). An enforced curfew from the beginnig could have saved us and the Iraqis a lot of problems.

[Kellanved]

6. There is a curfew since April

It wasn't/isn't enforceable - everyone is armed etc.
And the US has given up in some Baghdad districts - that won't improve the situation.

[Kamika]

10. No there wasnt

There wasnt a curfew since april i didnt even know we had one up now.

My relative who is a high ranking officer in the south korean army talked to us and was suprised how we didnt set up a curfew and let ppl run around looting etc etc.


I think we thought they would be much happier if we set them free thats why we didnt enforce any curfew, infact im sure we even encouraged them to loot the govermental places and saddams palaces.

[Kellanved]

14. Strange

I thought there were reports about enforcing the curfew. Well thanks for the Information; no curfew is one of the dumbest things possible IMHO.

[oneighty]

8. Lets see

We invade and occupy a country for trumped up reasons.

Then we attempt to secure the oil fields, the original and

true reason for for the invasion and occupation in the first place.

Many of the citizens (The occupied) do not like us. Some do not like us so much

that they defend themselves against us. We call them terrorists.

Some kids doing kid things get shot for doing kid things. They were not defenders,

I mean terrorists then, but they likely are now.

This is all so confusing?? I git headache.

Bet with all the billions of dollars we have spent killing maybe we

coulda bought the whole country to begin with, right up front and in the open.

180

[iamalevi2]

15. Wrong debate

This discussion is about the legitimacy of shooting someone running away when committing a crime (or so I thought). I don't think many here at DU would probably disagree with many of your points, however thats not the point of this thread.

Ohh!, and too the other response about John Gacy being the "law abiding" repub, is murder being law-abiding?

[oneighty]

16. The invasion, iamalevi2

and occupation of Iraq bu USofA and the British Empire is not legitimate.

So shooting people for any reason whatsoever

is just plain wrong.

IMHO

180

[iamalevi2]

17. Right on one point, wrong on the other

I agree with you about being there, however, the soldier on the ground is takeing action to protect himself and his/her fellow soldiers. Unless you've been there, please don't say I'm using the old "just following orders Nazi bullshit" defense.

[oneighty]

22. Nothing I said

refers to Germany. I am referring to invaders

shooting at innocent people in the occupied areas.

We do not belong there. It is wrong what we are doing.

No! I have not been there.

But I am a Korean War Veteran.

180

[atreides1]

18. Must be

I don't recall seeing Eric Rudolph going to trial, do you. So I guess
in his case murder must be law abiding.

And for the record a curfew has been in effect since the middle of April at least in Baghdad.

And no offense but I'm not overly concerned about what an officer in the South Korean military says. They have their own problems and they
also have blood on their hands from the past.

[iamalevi2]

23. Again, please

Rudolhp will go to trial. But your comment about the military officers in Korea having blood on their hands using a blanket approach sadly shows how badly informed you are about the military. Focus your anger at the politicians that put our people in hopeless situations. Has an American soldier ever committed an actrocity, yes, but it's the exception, not the rule!

[atreides1]

21. The Germans had strong Curfews...

...in France, Greece, and it didn't stop those resistance fighters from attacking German targets, now did it.

Let's see "basic military laws", like taking hostages, or stealing the
personal property of civilians. How about assault, or even the wanton
killing of people in the wrong place at the wrong time, especially
when they were never warned.

All of the above violations have been conducted by the US military, and what action was taken, NONE.

So if basic military law is to be followed, then I would suggest a letter writing campaign to your Congressional delegation in Washington
demanding that basic military law is enforced!!!!!

This way basic military law can be applied as it should be, to both
sides that violate it.


"NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW, NO ONE"

[iamalevi2]

24. What the hell is "basic military law"

If your quoting it please enlighten me where I get take a class in it or buy a copy. Our soldiers are not police, and the basic function of any army is to kill and defeat the enemy. Though I was opposed from the war from the start, it happened and I can't do anything about that now, however we need a police force "like the UN" to take over.

[Trek234]

25. Some call it

the Geneva Convention.

[iamalevi2]

26. Touche'

However, I still stand behind the acts of the vast majority of our soldiers who are abiding by this code!

[bpilgrim]

33. and more specifically ROE - Rules of Engagement

This article is a professional review of the urban ROE for the US Army in Iraq, how it isn't followed at all, and the diastrous consequences. Definitely worth a look:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cloughley08162003.html

<Recently there have been several reports of incidents in Iraq involving the killing of civilians by the US Army. ("July 30--Two Iraqi civilians on foot shot dead by US soldiers in the Mansour district of Baghdad, Iraq. No weapons or explosives were found. August 8--US forces fire on a car carrying an Iraqi family at a checkpoint north of Baghdad. Five Iraqis, including three children, were killed, and two others wounded. August 11--US soldiers kill six Iraqi civilians at three different checkpoints in Baghdad, Iraq. No weapons or explosives were found." And so on.) ><snip>

<What we see in Chapter III of General Abizaid's Manual is, coincidentally and with horrific irony, an exact prediction of what is happening in Iraq concerning war crimes. Every single one of the criteria listed in the Doctrine is met with amazing exactitude. The situation in Iraq is frightening, and every time another brutal arrest is made, ..every time a civilian is killed in a spray of unaimed bullets, there is deeper hatred of the invader.>

more...
http://www.counterpunch.org/cloughley08162003.html

source...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=7300

peace

[Generic Other]

31. My father was a combat veteran

He fought in Germany and Korea. He would not shoot his enemy in the back. And he would condemn a fellow-soldier for committing such an act against an unarmed citizen. My father beat the crap out of a Russian soldier who was stealing a German citizen's bicycle the day he marched into Berlin. He didn't like bullies.

Your defense of soldiers shooting unarmed individuals in the back as one of the necessities of war is utterly hollow. It does the soldiers no good. Because every soldier who comes home from war and speaks of such deeds will witness his friends and loved ones recoil and cringe when he tries to explain. There will not be enough alcohol in the world to drown the pain he feels. For he will be reminded of the terrible things he has done for the rest of his life. Every time he closes his eyes. What is seared on his eyeballs will replay like a bad horror movie.

Funny thing a conscience. When you defy it, that's when you often discover it exists.

[iamalevi2]

32. A different type of war

Have you ever heard of a "tactical retreat", this is a delaying action by a few soldiers who turn, fire, & run repeatedly. This is done in order to give the rest of the retreating army the time it needs to reorganize, and/or make good its escape. Are you saying we shouldn't shoot at them when they run? My father was on Luzon in the Phillipines during WWII, if our soldiers took this "high moral" concept of your fathers, many more of our soldiers would be dead. Better talk to dad again and see if you have it right! If he was a "combat" soldier and really practiced this, he's lucky to be alive.

He you runs away, lives to kill you or your fellow soldier another day!

[bpilgrim]

34. do you know who was the last empire to use the term 'ILLEGAL COMBATANTS'

the Imperal Japanese Army during wwII. And of course it was all under the guise of bringing freedom and prosperity to the natives they were killing in order to bring this about.

peace

[Kamika]

35. what?

The japanese army never claimed they brought prosperity or freedom to china or korea, they made in clear they were the superior race, and should rule whole of asia by whatever means nessecery.

No dont compare the japanese to our army please.

[Generic Other]

37. Yoohoo

Listen to what you are saying.

The American Army also believes in its superiority and right to decide who should rule over the whole of the Middle East by whatever means necessary.

Wow. Have you no ability to grasp the obvious?

[iamalevi2]

38. You missed the point

Granted we have superior fire-power, but it's not our "army" that thinks its superior over the world, it's our policitians!

[bpilgrim]

39. Ever hear of the 'Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere'

http://ic.ucsc.edu/~naso/hist159b/presentations/total%20war%20pres/Slide4

and if you ever read their official literature during their 'adventures' abroad they used the same term - ILLEGAL COMBATANTS - to prosecute than execute chinese and korean civilians they suspected.

i take it you are korean and it would probably of some interest to you.

:hi:

peace

[Generic Other]

36. And guardsmen shot unarmed college students at Kent State too!

I don't remember hearing any of them bragging about it afterwards.

[leesa]

27. Ain't liberation grand!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. The joys of "liberation".

Now that the Iraqi's have been liberated, they can look forward to being gunned down for the horrific crime of "loitering" in their own country by foreign invaders. Well, that's sure to win their hearts and minds. Their parents, friends and neighbors are undoubtedly grateful to those nice soldiers for bringing peace and democracy to their country.

The idea worked well in Vietnam....didn't it?