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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:18 AM
Original message
The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11
Since most of the arguments made here around the events of 9/11 are of the LIHOP/MIHOP variety, I thought I'd walk a mile in the coincidentalists' shoes, and lay out the argument for coincidence.

Happy coincidenting!



That intelligence agencies, politicians and terrorists have conducted criminal business together is well established, but BCCI and Iran/Contra were a long time ago, so theres no need to rehash all that.

That Jonathan Bushs Riggs Bank has been found guilty of laundering terrorist funds and fined a record setting $25 million is embarrassing, surely, but to draw sinister conclusions is foolish.

That Marvin Bush sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing.

That George Bush found success as a businessman only after the investment of Osamas brother Salem and Osamas brother-in-law and al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mahfouz is just a one-in-a-million fluke.

That Osama bin Laden is known to have been an asset of US foreign policy in no way implies he still is. That al Qaeda was active in Kosovo on the same side as NATO merely demonstrates that nothing is black and white.

The claims of Michael Springman, State Department veteran of the Jeddah visa bureau, that the CIA ran the office and issued visas to al Qaeda members to receive training in the United States, are merely sour grapes because he was fired for making such wild accusations.

That so many in the Bush White House had expressed the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" before their militarist ambitions could be fulfilled means nothing more than being in the right place at the right time.

That in May of 2001, Dick Cheney took upon himself the job of co-ordinating a response to domestic terror attacks even as he was crafting the administrations energy policy, circumventing the established infrastructure and ignoring the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, merely shows the VP to be a can do sort of guy.

That the standing order for shooting down hijacked aircraft was altered on June 1, 2001, taking discretion away from field commanders and placing it solely in the hands of the Secretary of Defense, is simply poor planning and unfortunate timing. Fortunately the error has been corrected, since the order was reversed shortly after 9/11.

That Dave Frasca of the FBIs Radical Fundamentalist Unit received a promotion after quashing multiple, urgent requests for investigations into al Qaeda assets training at flight schools in the summer of 2001 does appear odd, but Im sure there must have been a good reason for it.

That over the summer of 2001 Washington received many urgent, senior-level warnings from foreign intelligence agencies of impending terror attacks using hijacked aircraft and did nothing, demonstrates the pressing need for a new Intelligence Czar.

That former lead counsel for the House David Schippers says hed taken to John Ashcrofts office specific warnings hed learned from FBI agents in New York of an impending attack even naming the proposed dates, names of the hijackers and the targets and that the investigations had been stymied and the agents threatened, proves nothing but David Schippers need for attention.

That George Bush had plans to invade Afghanistan on his desk before 9/11 demonstrates only the value of being prepared.

The suggestion that securing a pipeline across Afghanistan figured into the White Houses calculations is as ludicrous as the assertion that oil played a part in determining war in Iraq.

That Afghanistan is once again the worlds principal heroin producer is an unfortunate reality, but to claim the CIA is still actively involved in the narcotics trade is to presume bad faith on the part of the agency.

Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistans ISI, must not have authorized an al Qaeda payment of $100,000 to Mohammed Atta days before the attacks, and was not meeting with senior Washington officials over the week of 9/11, because I didnt read anything about it in the official report.

George HW Bush and Dick Cheney spent the evening of September 10 in the Oval Office, its true, but they were just old colleagues catching up.

That FEMA arrived in New York on Sept 10 to prepare for a scheduled biowarfare drill is a lucky twist of fate.

Newsweeks report that senior Pentagon officials cancelled flights on Sept 10 for the following day on account of security concerns is only newsworthy because of what happened the following morning.

That Mohamed Atta attended the International Officer's School at Maxwell Air Force Base, that Abdulaziz Alomari attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School, that Saeed Alghamdi attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey merely shows its a small world, after all.

That Mohammed Atta dressed like a Mafioso, had a stripper girlfriend, smuggled drugs, was already a licensed pilot when he entered the US, enjoyed pork chops, drank to excess and did cocaine, was closer to Europeans than Arabs in Florida, and included the names of defence contractors on his email list, proves how dangerous the radical fundamentalist Muslim can be.

That 43 lbs of heroin was found on board the Lear Jet owned by Wally Hilliard, the owner of Attas flight school, just three weeks after Atta enrolled the biggest seizure ever in Central Florida was just one of those things.

That Hilliards plane had made 30-round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers who always paid cash, that the plane had been supplied by a pair of drug smugglers who had also outfitted CIA drug runner Barry Seal, and that 9/11 commissioner Richard ben-Veniste had been Seals attorney before Seals murder, shows nothing but the lengths to which conspiracists will go to draw sinister conclusions.

Reports of insider trading on 9/11 are false, because the SEC investigated and found only respectable investors who will remain nameless involved, and no terrorists, so any profit-taking was merely coincidental.

That Hani Hanjour, the pilot of Flight 77, was so incompetent he could not fly a Cessna in August, but in September managed to fly a 767 at excessive speed into a spiraling, 270-degree descent and a level impact of the first floor of the Pentagon, on the only side that was virtually empty and had been hardened to withstand a terrorist attack, merely demonstrates that people can do almost anything once they set their minds to it.

That Mohammed Atta left a uniform, a will, his driver's license and a video "how to fly planes" in his rental car at the airport means he had other things on his mind.

The very mention of Israelis with links to military-intelligence having been arrested on Sept 11 videotaping and celebrating the attacks, and of a warning of impending attacks delivered to the Israeli company Odigo two hours before the first plane hit, is the vilest kind of anti-Semitism and should not be dignified with a response. That the stories were also reported in the Israeli media is a sad display of self-hatred among certain elements of the Jewish Left.

That multiple military wargames and simulations were underway the morning of 9/11 one simulating the crash of a plane into a building; another, a life-fly simulation of multiple hijackings and took many interceptors away from the eastern seaboard and confused field commanders as to which was a real hijacked aircraft and which was a hoax, was a tragic coincidence, but no less a coincidence.

That the National Military Command Center ops director asked a newly-qualified substitute to stand his watch at 8:30 am on Sept. 11 is nothing more than bad timing.

That the black boxes were either never found or were unrecoverable was a first for these particular boxes, but there's a first time for everything.

That a recording made Sept 11 of air traffic controllers detailing the events of the day, was destroyed by an FAA official who crushed it in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, is just one of those things.

That the FBI knew precisely which Florida flight schools to descend upon hours after the attacks should make every American safer to know their federal agents are on the ball.

To insinuate evil motive from the mercy flights of bin Laden family members and Saudi royals after 9/11 shows the sickness of the conspiratorial mindset.

Le Figaros report in October 2001, known to have originated with French intelligence, that two CIA agents met Osama bin Laden in a Dubai hospital in July 2001, proves again the perfidy of the French.

That the tape in which bin Laden claims responsibility for the attacks was released by the State Department after having been found providentially by US forces in Afghanistan, and depicts a fattened Osama with a broader face and a flatter nose, proves Osama masterminded 9/11.

That the White House went on Cipro September 11 shows the foresightedness of Americas emergency response.

That the anthrax was mailed to perceived liberal media and the Democratic leadership demonstrates only the perversity of the terrorist psyche.

That the anthrax attacks appeared to silence opponents of the Patriot Act only shows that appearances can be deceiving.

That the Ames-strain anthrax was found to have originated at Fort Detrick, and was beyond the capability of all but a few labs to refine, underscores the importance of allowing the investigation to continue without the distraction of absurd conspiracy theories.

Sibel Edmonds is an attention-seeking nutcase. And since John Ashcroft has gagged her and classified her public testimony, we should speak no more of her.

But most of all, remember: there are no secrets, governments would never accept civilian casualties for geostrategic gain, and conspiracies are for the weak-minded and gullible.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. kick
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. And the probability these events occured by chance is...
Edited on Thu Aug-05-04 12:16 PM by TruthIsAll
an exercise for another day.

Perhaps 1 star out of the total in the universe.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. And the list is only as long as I had time to make it.
Had to stop, or I wouldn't have done anything else today.
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graphixtech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. Precisely! Here is Schoenman and Hellyer
Michael Ruppert in San Francisco -
'I don't deal with conspiracy theory. I deal in conspiracy FACT'

Watch the top five videos on this page and
you will never view politics the same:
http://www.snowshoefilms.com /

(brief bio of Ralph Schoenman: Ralph Schoenman served as Secretary General of the International Tribunal on U.S. War Crimes in Indochina. He was imprisoned in Bolivia after the death of Che Guevera. He has worked alongside Malcom X and been an international advocate for the successful release of political prisoners. He has authored many books, including books about Zionism, Iraq and Kuwait, the Congo, Isreal and Palestine. Ralph Schoenman and Mya Shone host a weekly radio broadcase called Taking Aim, and also provide commentary for a Paciifica radio report.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ex- Canadian Defense Minister asks 'WHY" failure? (pics)



(Paul Hellyer photos credit Kyle Hence)

An interview with Paul Hellyer,
former Defense Minister of Canada

The following interview was conducted by Kyle Hence of 911CitizensWatch.org and Bill Douglas of 911Visibility.org, on May 27, 2004, at the International 9-11 Inquiry in Toronto, Canada.

(Paul Hellyer held the Canadian office equivalent to Secretary of Defense in the U.S., and was Deputy Prime Minister, the Canadian equivalent to Vice President.)

Paul Hellyer:
Why didn't you know this was going to happen? You spend billions and billions with spooks all over the world and surely you should have known what was going on. And, so I began to be concerned about that. And then questions were raised by others. Why did the President just sit in the schoolroom when he heard the news? Why did he not acknowledge that he already knew what was going on? As a former Minister of National Defense, when the news came out I had to wonder. Why did airplanes fly around for an hour and a half without interceptors being scrambled from Andrews ? Is it Andrews right next to the capitol?

Kyle Hence: Yes, that's correct.

Paul Hellyer: With a quick action alert they should have been there in five minutes or ten minutes. If not, as the Minister of National Defense, which in the United States is the Secretary of Defense, I would want to say "why not?"

Kyle Hence: Does it disturb you, or do you have concerns about your neighbors to the south that there's been no inquiry at a defense level relative to the specific failure to scramble jets?

Paul Hellyer: I think the inquiry has been very shallow and superficial. And I would like to see a much tougher more in-depth inquiry. The evidence is that some people were allowed to fly out of the United States after the attack when American citizens were not allowed to fly in. And Canadians had the pleasure, I guess in a sense, of the company of tens of thousands, several tens of thousands of them in Canada for a few days, especially in Newfoundland where the people were most gracious in looking after them. But why were some members of the Bin Laden family allowed to fly out of the United States? Why?

There are so many questions. What is going wrong here? Or was there something going wrong? How much did they actually know?
(more)

Kyle Hence: It seems like there's a fundamental lack of accountability and transparency, especially now in the wake of 9-11. Does that concern you in regards to what's happening in America with the Patriot Act, and the projection of American military power?

Paul Hellyer: Oh, very, very much so. I'm very disturbed about a lack of transparency. Everyone talks about it, and no one is willing to come clean, as it were. I just had lunch, interestingly enough with the designer of the Avro Arrow which was cancelled more than 40 years ago and one of the things we were discussing were the lies that people in government and the Air Force told at the time. And I guess this makes me all the more suspicious. If they lied about that, what else were they lying about? So, we were agreeing that you had to get behind the superficial and the spin and try and get at the truth. It's very difficult. It takes a lot of time. But, we have to try and get the truth. Because unless we do, as the good book says, "seek the truth and the truth will set you free." And I think that's what we've got to try to do and I hope that somebody has the courage and the persistence to keep at it until we can get it.
(more)

Online movie of Hellyer interview (7 minutes):
http://www.septembereleventh.org/kc/multimedia /

http://www.911Truth.org/index.php


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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. They had a bad day, that's all
Give 'em a break. If they had it to do all over again I'm sure they'd easily stopped it from happening. They just had a bad day. </sarcasm>

Good job, Minstrel Boy. This one's a keeper.

Come join us in the 9/11 forum.
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DemVIctory Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. FEMA getting there on 9/10
I believe that this has actually been debunked. However I have no doubt in my mind that the Bush-neocon administration are by far the biggest traitors our country has ever known.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. No, it is true. Giuliani testified to it before the 9/11 commission.
Edited on Thu Aug-05-04 12:59 PM by Minstrel Boy
See "Long Debunked Rumor Validated by Giuliani", June 3 2004 (http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/archive/scoop/stories/fc/8... ) and more at this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... .

From Giuliani's testimony:

"... the reason Pier 92 was selected as a command center was because on the next day, on September 12, Pier 92 was going to have a drill, it had hundreds of people here, from FEMA, from the Federal Government, from the State, from the State Emergency Management Office, and they were getting ready for a drill for biochemical attack. So that was gonna be the place they were going to have the drill. The equipment was already there, so we were able to establish a command center there, within three days, that was two and a half to three times bigger than the command center that we had lost at 7 World Trade Center. And it was from there that the rest of the search and rescue effort was completed."

"The transcript of former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani's testimony to the 9-11 Commission during the May 18-19, 2004 hearings in New York is the only transcript of that hearing omitted from the Commission website."

And from the NYC government:

On May 22, 2002, OEM, along with the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOH), held the first-ever TriPOD (Trial Point of Dispensing) drill (see Press Release). Originally scheduled for September 12, 2001, TriPOD was designed to determine the feasibility of dispensing medication to a large section of the populace during a biological attack. Hundreds of NYPD and FDNY cadets stood in as "patients," while OEM and DOH personnel, along with volunteers from New York Cares, manned "griage" (greeting and triage), triage, medical evaluation and dispensing areas.

For purposes of this drill, TriPOD personnel anticipated treating over 1,000 victims every hour.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/html/other/sub_photos_pages...
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. That *Jebbieboy
declared Martial Law in Florida on September 7th. His response upon hearing the news, "Was it the terrorists?" :shrug:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. COINCIDENCE AND LIKELY STORIES


:hi:
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. I knew it all along
Coincidence! Pure and simple. Nothing to see here folks, move along.
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. the americans cannot deal with 911 now.... the truth is beyond their
media fed ability to digest.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. many are afraid to look foolish
All these professional-schmessionals out there withholding judgement, maturely awaiting proof - in what form, a memo from the BFEE?

Even a court of law can look at patterns. Even a court of law deals with circumstantial evidence. Entertaining "conspiracy theories" isn't taking a flyer. The flyer is continuing to insist we live in Mayberry, refusing to consider anything unpleasant.

great work!

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Bush and Condi said they couldn't wait for the "smoking gun"
Edited on Thu Aug-05-04 01:27 PM by Minstrel Boy
that could "come in the form of a mushroom cloud." So why, even as the world blows up around us, should we feel the need to wait for, as you suggest, a signed confession from the BFEE? Former CIA director Richard Helms' advice for keeping secrets was never commit anything to writing. I don't think it's lost in the mail.

An extraordinary claim, it is said, demands extraordinary evidence. But the amount of evidence supporting complicity is extraordinary, diverse and sound. And the claim that elements of a government would engineer a terrorist attack upon its own populace for its own advantage is, in fact, not as extraordinary as it seems when we consider the historical record.

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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. uhmm... I hope you realize I was agreeing with you
I, personally, am not awaiting the smoking memo, and I think it is cowardly to insist on such proof before considering patterns and other circumstantial proofs.



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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. oh I do, I do.
Sorry if my tone sounded otherwise to you.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. Awesome essay, MB! Duly bookmarked
You are right, there is so damn much more.

G.H.W. Bush just happened to be having a meeting the morning of 9-11 in which one of the attendees was OBL's brother. Hey, meetings happen all the time, right?

Jebbie was on the ball, quickly confiscating the records from the pilot school, thank god he was on the job!

Our brave war pResident was so right to fight any investigation into 9-11 tooth and nail, why throw good money after bad? As it is, he only spent $11 mill. Now, if he were investigating consentual sex between adults, that would have justified $90 mill.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. Great post!
I love good essays that make you think!

Now you do realize, if 9/11/01 was a Monday, all of this would be explained. Everyone has bad days on Mondays!

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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. kick n/t
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
18. Got a link?
Of course you do.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



Wouldn't be prudent not to have the links thing.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. one good octopus deserves another


It has a lot of tentacles, but there are more of us. :hi:
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
21. I think I will print this out
To photocopy and leave around in libraries, bookstores etc. (along with some links to sites like DU, www.Cooperativeresearch.org , www.madcowprod.com etc). Ministrel Boy, is it safe to assume I will not be sued for copyright infringement. :)
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Your assumption is correct
Spread it like hot mustard on pastrami. :hi:
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Lyagushka Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. Excellent Post
Edited on Thu Aug-05-04 04:13 PM by Lyagushka
To select one small part of this excellent post:

"the Israeli company Odigo two hours before the first plane hit, is the vilest kind of anti-Semitism and should not be dignified with a response. That the stories were also reported in the Israeli media is a sad display of self-hatred among certain elements of the Jewish Left.
"



This was reported by Ha'aretz in Israel:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?ite...

One part of their report that is interesting is the following section:

"Odigo usually zealously protects the privacy of its registered users, said Macover, but in this case the company took the initiative to provide the law enforcement services with the originating Internet Presence address of the message, so the FBI could track down the Internet Service Provider, and the actual sender of the original message"

I wonder what the FBI did with the information they found- that seemed to have ended at the same dead end as the Anthrax investigation.

It has been a long while since I last read about Odigo, but I believe that they took over another Israeli electronics firm who have a monopoly on providing federal agencies with the equipment for electronic wire taps (I cannot remember their name). This equipment was fitted with a 'trap door'. ostensibly to allow the developers to upgrade the software, but there had been a number of high profile investigations that had failed as those under surveillance were aware that their communications were being tapped. The article I read said that the concern was that hackers had either managed to break into this trap door or that the methodology had been 'sold' by those that helped develop it. Yet this is the equipment that almost all federal agencies use, and to replace would be financial prohibitive.

As I wrote, I am pretty hazy on the details (sorry) though I do remember posting a fuller account on another web site, so I will have to see if I can find it again.

I know that there are various conspiracies that can be construed from this (including some fairly repulsive ones that claim the Israelis were behind 911 or at least were aware it would take place). Israel has a history of spying on its allies, so it not inconceivable that they may have had a hand in developing the technology now being used, but I would suspect that if drug dealers have managed to 'break' these systems, it would not be beyond possibility that terrorists will have as well.

It is only a small point (though the fact that wire taps had been circumvented in this way seems woefully under reported) but many 'small' points can contribute to a fuller picture.

I would also love to know if the FBI ever discovered the senders of these messages...and if so, why this has remained another well kept secret.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Good stuff there, thanks.
There's an interesting little book by Justin Raimondo called The Terror Enigma, which goes into great detail on the Israeli "movers" and the "art students." I don't agree with Raimondo's conclusions, but it's of value because it's extremely well documented, and only with mainstream sources, including Israeli media and US government reports.

This is from an important article on the spy ring in Salon:

The extreme sensitivity of the Israeli art student story in government circles was made clear to this reporter when, in the midst of my inquiries at DEA and elsewhere, I was told by a source that some unknown party had checked my records and background. He proved it by mentioning a job I had briefly held many years ago that virtually no one outside my family knew about. Shortly after this, I received a call from an individual who identified himself only by the code name Stability. Stability said he was referred to me from "someone in Washington." That someone turned out to be a veteran D.C. correspondent who has close sources in the CIA and the FBI and who verified that Stability was a high-level intelligence agent who had been following the art student matter from the inside.

Stability was guarded in his initial conversation with me. He said that people in the intelligence committee were suspicious about my bona fides and raised the possibility that someone was "using" me. "Your name is known and has been known for quite a while," Stability said. "The problem is that you're going into a hornet's nest with this. It's a very difficult time in this particular area. This is a scenario where a lot of people are living a bunker mentality." He added, "There are a lot of people under a lot of pressure right now because there's a great effort to discredit the story, discredit the connections, prevent people from going any further . There are some very, very smart people who have taken a lot of heat on this -- have gone to what I would consider extraordinary risks to reach out. Quite frankly, there are a lot of patriots out there who'd like to remain alive. Typically, patriots are dead."

...

But to what end? What was the value? What was to be gained? "Unknown, unknown," Stability said. "You could be anywhere from D.C. to daylight on that one. Even on our side, you have to take all the stuff and draw it all out and clean out all the chaff. I will tell you that from those who are working ground zero of this case, it is a difficult puzzle to put together, and it is not complete by any means." Even the spooks are baffled; they have no answers.

...

Apparently, at least some agents in FBI remain quite concerned about the art student problem. According to several intelligence sources, including Stability, on Dec. 3, 2001, six separate FBI field offices simultaneously forwarded communiqus to FBI headquarters inquiring into the status of the investigation. The FBI agents wanted to have a "clarification" as to what was going on.
http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2002/05/07/studen...
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. wow, I just read that article
quite a lot of info there...SPOOKY.

The Victor/Victoria analogy is amazing.
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
24. MAGNIFICENT WORK!!!
brilliantly written, Minstrel Boy.

you are a treasure.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. kickin' for the evening crowd. n/t
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
27. Excellent job! I'm sure this can be built upon too.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. "How many coincidences does it take to make a plot?" - Mae Brussell
"Don't be on the defensive. If they say it's a 'conspiracy theory', ask them 'what's your theory?' If they question your credibility, say 'I think the media is in danger of losing their credibility'. Speak only about what you feel confident speaking about. The questions you pose are just as important. This is no time to be meek and mute. Be positively and lovingly combative."

"At a certain point, the term 'conspiracy theory' becomes just an excuse not to do your homework."

"Those who most loudly disparage 'conspiracy theory' are most often the ones with the least knowledge of the actual evidence being presented."

Barrie Zwicker, Canadian media commentator and journalist

http://www.oilempire.us/conspiracy.html
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
30. .
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
31. final kick for the night n/t
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Interesting ...one wonders how deep the rabbit hole goes...
..
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
33. RofLmao!! Statistics? Anyone?????
Ever hear of 'statistics', Dude?

Are Statisticians 'Coincidence Theorists'.

This is utter Bullshit, as always. Same old shit, different day, different thread.

Same old Conspiracy Hobbyists peddling the same tired 'evidence'.

Begone.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Statistics? I knew the odds were better than even you'd show up
to contribute nothing more thoughtful and informed than "this is utter Bullshit." It's what you do.

Thank you. Consider me chastised. :hi:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You bad bad Minstrel-san
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. 'nother kick for Minstrel Boy
I still don't know if I lean to LIHOP/MIHOP or something completely different - just know that as soon as it happened it smelled off to me - and it's got worse ever since.

Also nagging me is that when compared to all other "Al Qaeda" linked attacks before and after this was just too spectacular for people more versed in truck bombs and suicide backpack bombs than this kind of massive logistical nightmare of a plan that pretty much went off without a hitch.

:kick:
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. That reminds me of a quote from Andreas von Blow,
Edited on Thu Aug-05-04 11:52 PM by Minstrel Boy
former German cabinet minister under Helmut Schmidt and 25-year parliamentarian, back in 2002. Von Blow told the paper Der Tagesspiegel that the attacks were "unthinkable, without years-long support from secret apparatuses of the state and industry."

What he goes on to say about Intelligence links to drug trade and moneylaundering might have more resonance now after, for instance, Sibel Edmonds, Daniel Hopsicker's research of the Florida connection and the exposure of Riggs Bank.

Q: You wrote a book on the dealings of the CIA and Co. In the meantime, you have become an expert regarding the strange things related to intelligence services' work.

Von Blow: "Strange things" is the wrong term. What has gone on, and goes on, in the name of intelligence services, are true crimes.

...

Whoever wants to understand the CIA's methods, has to deal with its main tasks {covert operations}: below the level of war, and outside international law, foreign states are to be influenced, by organizing insurrections, terrorist attacks, usually combined with drugs and weapons trade, and money laundering. This is essentially very simple: One arms violent people with weapons. Since, however, it must not under any circumstances come out that there is an intelligence agency behind it, all traces are erased, with tremendous deployment of resources. I have the impression that this kind of intelligence agency spends 90% of its time this way: creating false leads. So that if anyone suspects the collaboration of the agencies, he is accused of the sickness of conspiracy madness.

...

When in doubt, it is always worthwhile to take a look at a map, where are raw materials resources, and the routes to them? Then lay a map of civil wars and conflicts on top of that they coincide. The same is the case with the third map: nodal points of the drug trade. Where this all comes together, the American intelligence services are not far away.

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/vonbuelow.htm
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. sums up my feelings
"unthinkable, without years-long support from secret apparatuses of the state and industry."

it just seems logical to me, is also the opinion of a bloke I know who used to be involved in military intelligence, who while not as suspiscious of the current US admin as me knows fine well that govts can and do kill their own for political gain - he's positive we don't know the real story behind 9/11 and that we never will
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
37. This is great, but it would be even better with links. I know some of it
comes from outside the mainstream media (which is certainly o.k. with me, but not with everybody). People who can't wrap their heads around the idea that our government was complicit in 9/11 would only believe something if it comes from the mainstream media. Paul Thompson's timeline is powerful because it only links to mainstream sources. One of the big problems with the mainstream media today is that they will report certain bits of info, but they don't pull it all together and connect the dots. There are places they dare not go, and it's left up to alternative media, with a lot less money, to figure out what is really happening.

Thanks, your post is a great resource.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I know. It wasn't really meant to be a resource; more of a polemic.
There are links here to a number of the points raised, and almost everything can be given a "mainstream" cite.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Wow, I don't know how I missed this when you first posted it. Thanks.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
42. Great essay. But may I suggest...
that you should take this one out:
George HW Bush and Dick Cheney spent the evening of September 10 in the Oval Office, its true, but they were just old colleagues catching up.

IMO this statement doesn't come anywhere close to the level of 'incredibility' that the others do. That one statement would be used to discredit the essay as a whole, since obviously Bush & Cheney had plenty of reasons to meet, with Bush already in town for the Carlyle meeting.

Also how about adding the coincidence that 3 of the hijackers lived at Pensacola Naval Base?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Thanks for mentioning the Carlyle meeting,
I think I should have added to the meeting with Cheney. Poppy met with Cheney alone in the White House the evening of Sept 10, then met with a bin Laden and the Carlyle directors the morning of Sept 11.

And the Pensacola Naval base, absolutely.

The list really does go on and on.
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thecrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
43. KICK
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Good idea!
:kick:
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