GI: Pushing Iraqis in River Was Ordered

[Bluebear]

FORT CARSON, Colo. - One of four soldiers charged with pushing two Iraqi civilians into a river, where one of them drowned, says he was ordered to do so and told what to say to officials looking into the death, an Army investigator testified Wednesday.

Spc. Terry Bowman said he "was told by his chain of command what version to give" investigators, Sgt. Irene Cintron of the Army's Criminal Investigation Command said during a teleconference from Iraq as the military convened a hearing to determine whether the soldiers will be court-martialed.

Bowman said he had been ordered to push the men into the Tigris River, Cintron said.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040728/ap_on_re_us/soldiers_charged_4

[donco6]

1. This is big here - lead story on the news this eve.

Usually the news whitewashes anything to do with any bases, but this one's getting press.

[Bluebear]

3. Wonder what kind of nat'l press it will get

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. NPR said

that people up the chain of command refused to testify unless they were given immunity. Sounds to me like these guys might have a case.

[Bluebear]

4. Are we getting used to news like this or is this old news?

[gratuitous]

5. Golly, another aberration!

Sure are a lot of those running around in Iraq. I'm glad nothing has to be done, because as we all know, these are just a few bad apples. No reason to look system-wide for why these things happen over and over again. No sense changing anything about the military culture.

[asjr]

10. Iraq may have to be renamed Aberratia.

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. They will probably release a bunch of these stories while

the press is preoccupied with the convention coverage. It's their way.

[thebigidea]

7. uh, that might be the kind of order to refuse.

What would they do? Court martial him for not throwing an unarmed man into a river?

I guess they were ordered to laugh about it, too.

[Bluebear]

8. Bush takes no responsibility though.

Sorry, shit must roll uphill all of a sudden.

[Solly Mack]

9. Doesn't change their guilt.

A soldier is bound by military law to never follow an illegal order..and when they do follow an illegal order, they are just as guilty as those giving the order.


The blame goes up the chain of command but that in no way changes the guilt of these soldiers.

contact congress and demand that officers are held accountable as well

instead of some bullshit article 15's that carry punishments that do

not match the level of the crime.

[atreides1]

12. 4th SS Division(formerly the 4th ID)

::A soldier is bound by military law to never follow an illegal order...and when they do follow an illegal order, they are just as guilty as those giving the order::

True, but the 4th ID had already violated the Geneva Conventions when they took the family members of two Iraqi generals as hostages, and everybody just clapped them on the back. The 4th ID was also the same unit where a Iraqi police officer was beaten in front of witnesses and then the commanding officer fired a shot by the side of his head.
Granted that the police officer was giving information to insurgents.

Now the difference between these three cases, is that the commanders of the two infantry brigades that took the hostages were white, while the commander who fired the pistol was black. The two white brigade commanders were treated like heroes, while the black commander received UCMJ action, was fined $5600.00, and was allowed to retire.

As for the officers that received AR 15's their careers are effectively over, yes I know it's not even close to being the same kind of punishment that these soldiers will receive, but if a deal was made then it's over. Very little can be done to these officers now.

What needs to be demanded from Congress, is that the US Army IG goes back to Iraq and conducts a real investigation, not the whitewashed crap that was done. These generals are no longer loyal to our country, their loyalty belongs to BushCo. They are bought and paid for, so don't expect any of them to question their glorious leader.

[Solly Mack]

14. If the IG will actually investigate, that is

lack of actual investigation and actual justice is a biggie

I'd like to see each and every crime brought to justice and all held accountable.

My husband is a soldier. The criminals make his job harder and increase his chances of dying.

I don't just blame Bush..or Rummy...or the Generals. I blame an entire mindset which crosses all known lines...

[Nevernose]

13. I thought that was only officers?

I thought that was only officers who had the right or obligation to refuse to obey an illegal order? That enlisted men have to do what they're told, period, because otherwise there would be anarchy throughout the military as enlisted men (who are "unable to think for themselves") would all begin interpreting any orders issued?

I don't really have an opinion onw way or another, I'm just wondering if you or anyone else knew.

[Solly Mack]

15. No. Enlisted are requied to refuse an illegal order

they are also required to report that such an order was issued...as well as to report any and all war crimes.

Yes, they can get into trouble for refusing...as it can become a case of he said/she said...


it's how soldiers are screwed....they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

but I much rather be damned for not following an illegal order than for committing a war crime.

[w4rma]

17. Thats easy to say until you are in that situation and have about 9 seconds

to figure out what you are going to do.

And most likely you'll follow the order, because that's what you've been conditioned to do. Low ranking soldiers are not hired to think, nor are they given all the relevant information to do a proper analysis. They are hired to carry out orders.

[Solly Mack]

18. No, it's not easy to say

but thanks for your input anyway

my husband is a soldier...my husband went to Iraq...my husband witnessed a war crime...my husband turned those people in...my husband kept his humanity and faced the consequences...because he understands that his life is nothing without holding on to his humanity..

easy to say? hardly...

[w4rma]

19. You're husband is an honorable man and should be commended.

And I'd bet that he knows that most other folks would have looked the other way.

My point is that its the folks who give the orders who need to be given the punishment. If they aren't and the ones who followed the orders are punshed in their stead, then the same type of wicked order will be given again, maybe this time with more tact.

[Solly Mack]

20. They should all be punished. Officer, enlisted, and civilian command

[Nevernose]

21. Thanks for the info

I was a hair's breadth from joining the Army when I was 21 or so. My dad, a Vietnam vet, taked me out of it for reasons just like this.

[atreides1]

11. Ah Yes

Soldiers of the 4th SS Division, now add manslaughter to the list of violations of the Geneva Convention, along with hostage taking, and
coercion of a prisoner with a loaded pistol.

So what exactly are US troops defending us from again, that's right, things like dictators and civilian killing military personnel. Too late!!!!

By the way, for those that are wondering this is a great example of an illegal order, and it shows that the chain of command does not view the Iraqi people as human and have trained at least some of the soldiers to feel the same way.

But it's just a few "bad apples", right?

[Disturbed]

16. Military Investigates itself

Isn't that absurd?

It is patently obvious that there is a system wide policy of torture and brutality. This is one of the largest Cover Ups in recent history.

An idication of just how insane things are is the following.

Rumsfailed Admitted violating Geneva Convention

Rumsfailed admitted in public that when CIA Tentet requested that a prisoner be sent to a secret Afghan/US Prison that Rumsfailed did so. After four months a DOD Attorney stated that this was an illegal act so Rumsfailed ordered that this prisoner be sent back to Abu Graib but the prisoner was not listed at that location on purpose. That is two violations of the Geneva Convention. Not one complaint or charge was made regarding Rumsfailed, not even by any Dem in Congress. Rumsfaild's admission came after some in Congress called for his resignation and after Rep. Rangel issued Impeachment of Rumsfailed which nothing has been heard of since then. Rumsfailed also signed off on some forms of torture and that has been proven via documentation.

Does the US no longer follow the Geneva Convention? It appears it does not.

[atreides1]

22. The Geneva Convention only Applies To The US

At least that's what I'm seeing. When the Iraqis showed the American POWs they had captured, Rumsferatu had a fit, the man was almost foaming at the mouth. Talking about the Geneva Convention and how the Iraqis were violating it by showing the videos of the POWs.

When confronted about the release of the photos of Saddam's sons, the Geneva Convention didn't apply, though I don't recall him giving an actual explanation why not.

So you see the Geneva Convention as it is understood by US troops only applies to them, and only so long as they don't get caught. Now officers are in a totally different category, along with what color the officer might be.

Two white commanding officers are greeted as heroes for taking hostages, which is a violation of the Geneva Convention, while a black commander, who violates the law by allowing an Iraqi to be beaten and then firing a pistol by the side of the Iraqi's head, is
given non-judicial punishment, fined $5600.00, and relieved of command, he also "retired".

Now is there a disparity here with military justice. All three should have been charged and court martialed, but two will probably get that general's star(white), and the third was punished and retired(black).

So not only is America still trying to grab that elusive butterfly called "every man is equal", so is the American military.