I need some help with this one...

[sherrem]

I finally had a decent dialogue with my conservative aunt about why she think John Kerry would NOT make a good president. It's very clear to me she's been watching too much Hannity. After Each "point" I asked to her to elaborate, which for the most part she couldn't, but I NEED to refute these points with cold hard facts.

These are her reasons:

**Voted against the Lacy/Connor Law.

**"He says" he's a war hero. He served 4 months and 9 days in vietnam, received 3 purple hearts, and killed a person who was no threat to him. (Her purple heart argument is re got a "cut" and a "sliver", etc. "Uncle Bob also received a purple heart, but he refused to take it" to which I said "That was HIS decision")

**He never wanted to go into the war, he wanted to study in Paris. When he went in front of the draft board they rejected it .

**Has missed 2/3 of the votes in the senate and still geting paid for it. (To which I said, "Bush took a month of vacation and we paid for it", to which she said "Presidents are allowed vacations". I guess Senators aren't)

**Dated Patty Davis while still married to his first wife. (What this has to do with the price of rice in China, I have no idea, but there's a freeper for ya)

**Went after a very wealthy woman . (Again..whatever)

**Most liberal senator there is.

**Flaunting the JFK initials, saying he's so much like John Kennedy. (I bought a JFK pin at his Rally in Bloomer just to piss her off)

**Pandering to white supremisists, then to the NAACP

**Picking John Edwards as a running mate to get the female vote. He doesn't think women can vote on the issues, have to vote for the most attractive.

**Voting for the war before he voted against it. (quoting a Bush attack add none the less)

**Voting againt having full body armor for troops already in Iraq. (quoting yet another Bush add)

**His policies always shift, anti-vietnam, then for vietnam, etc... has no morals

**He's using vietnam vets in his book and one of his ads saying he served with these people and they all support him. These are suing him: John Baker Jr, General Pat Brady, Robert Bush, David Charles Dolby, Walter Ehlers, James Flemming, Rudy Hernandez, Thomas Hudner, Robert Ingram, Arthur Jackson, George Lange, Mjr. General James Livingston, David McNareny, Ola Mies, Robert O'Malley, Richard Pitman, Michael Thornton, Gary Wetzel, Paul Weiderdorfer (I probably spelled a few wrong, did this over the phone)

**He voted to protect the security of our country and defend American values and troops, then decided not to.

**He plans on weakening America's defense--he's said he's opposed to funding for weapons

**Wants to replace the Patriot Act.

**Wants higher taxes. Voted against marriage penalty 22 times, voted against expanding the child tax credit 18 times, against full repeal on a death tax.

**Doesn't like any faith based programs, says money shouldn't go to any religious groups

**Missed 36 of 18 votes for medicare prescription drug {programs?]. He felt it wouldn't make a difference.

**Plans massive new government spending--$1.9 trillion

**Retreats on education reform (huh?)

**Voted against our troops

**Plans to slash America's intelligence funding

**Voted for higher gas taxes

**Lies surrounding invading Iraq weren't Bush's lies, they're Wilson's lies and he works for Kerry now. Who do you suppose got Wilson to lie?? (one of THE dumbest rhetorical questions I've ever heard)

I would appreciate any help with this...even if its just pointing me in the right direction. I don't have cable, so I can't watch any 24 news channels, and its hard to get unbiased information from the newspapers.

Thanks!!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Welcome to DU *wave*

I promise you there are lots of folks here who can help you with this stuff. :)

[fdr_hst_fan]

2. Federal money SHOULDN't be going to any religious groups;

that's SMIRK"S idea. Give her "The Bush-hater's Handbook" or "The I hate George W Bush Book"-they'll give her ALL the details she needs, because it ALL based on research into the last 3.5 years.
:puke:

[NMDemDist2]

3. here are some links to debunk most of the crap..

http://factcheck.org/archive.aspx-- debunks Bush's ads against Kerry

many more debunks on kerry's page http://blog.johnkerry.com/dbunker/

[sherrem]

10. Thanks for this site! n/t

[mellowinman]

4. I suggest moving on.

Debate those who are asking questions, and not those who just spew RNC talking points.

This person will be bad for your health. See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2014087

[NightOwwl]

12. Agreed

I smell something unpleasant in the air.

[Bridget Burke]

5. Some of these talking points are true.

But wanting higher taxes is not necessarily bad. Neither is criticizing the Patriot Act or wanting separation of church & state.

Did you point this out to your aunt?

[merh]

6. Don't know anything about what your aunt alleges about using the vets

you list in his book or anything about a lawsuit filed by the vets. The names she supplied are the medal of honor recipients from WWII, Korean War and VietNam war that have signed a letter of support for * and * has included the letter on his web page. Seems to me your aunts talking points are as distorted as *'s positions. Not all of the vets listed served in VietNam. The letter of support also contains a disclaimer that the medal of honor society does not join in the endorsements and the 21 listed (those your aunt cites) are only about 16% of the living medal of honor recipients. Wonder how many of the MOH recipients have donated to the RNC or *?

=======================
**He's using vietnam vets in his book and one of his ads saying he served with these people and they all support him. These are suing him: John Baker Jr, General Pat Brady, Robert Bush, David Charles Dolby, Walter Ehlers, James Flemming, Rudy Hernandez, Thomas Hudner, Robert Ingram, Arthur Jackson, George Lange, Mjr. General James Livingston, David McNareny, Ola Mies, Robert O'Malley, Richard Pitman, Michael Thornton, Gary Wetzel, Paul Weiderdorfer (I probably spelled a few wrong, did this over the phone)
========================

The vets that Kerry references or that have come out in support of him actually served with Kerry. Tell auntie to get her talking points straight, then you can further refute them if you want. Also suggest that if the facts supplied in support of * are not credible, neither is her stance or *.

Edited to include link to a copy and discussion of the letter:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2012581

[NightOwwl]

7. Your aunt must have spent

hours putting together that concise list of 26 talking point.

Why don't you try a Google search, I'm sure you could find lots of factual rebuttals. In addition, I think the discussion with your aunt would be more persuasive if you included your own personal views on Kerry along with your thoughts on each issue.

So what do you think about Kerry? I'd love to know.

[sherrem]

11. He he he

Actually, we've been having this debate on and off for several months, and I have NEVER gotten anything out of her. Last night, I sent her (I believe it was) Bush's reume, found on this board. I simply asked her to refute every point made. She says Bush is a good president, but can't tell me why, and that Kerry would make an awful president, but can't tell me why.

Last night, I just simply asked her to tell me every reason she could think of why Kerry would not make a good president, and in the first post is the reasons she gave me. I told her, I would not refute them on the phone, just rattle them off and I'll take notes. I've found debating the issues with republicans is hard to do when all they can come up with is "Clinton did (insert whatever "atrocity" Clinton committed)".

I've told her my personal views several times. For some reason, it doesn't do any good.

My number one reason for supporting Kerry is the war in Iraq. Sure, some might say that is a poor excuse. I did not support the war from the VERY beginning. I was one of those "un-patriotic" people who should "move to Canada" because America is "love it or leave it" land. "Not supporting your president is a kick in the face to any soldier in Iraq." This statement couldn't be further from the truth. Feining support for a president who was not elected, for whom I didn't vote for, whom I felt sent thousands of innocent people (including family members) into Iraq under (what I felt at the time and has since been proven) false pretences, is the WORST form of non-patriotism I could possibly imagine. I do not support bringing all the troops home in one fell swoop, but I don't believe the current administration has the wherewithall to correct the mistake they made by sending troops there in the first place.

I will admit Kerry wasn't my first choice, and in the beginning it was a choice between "the lesser of two evils" in my opinion (I voted for Edwards in the primaries). But since going to his rally and researching his views, I have become a Kerry supporter 100%.

[SheilaT]

8. Among other things,

Kerry served 4 months or so of his second tour in Vietnam. Repeat that, slowly, in words of one syllable to your aunt: Sec-ond tour. How many tours did Bush serve over there? And Cheney? And Rumsfeld?

It's Bush who has cut benefits to veterans, cut their combat pay, made it harder for them to get medical care. It's thanks to Bush that they're over there without body armor.

And what's this crap she's saying about Wilson? Is WILSON supposed to have claimed there were WMD's in Iraq? Was Bush trying to avoid war at all costs and only invaded Iraq because they invaded us? Ask her just what it is you missed that week.

I would say, do just a little fact checking on your own (the internet is of course a lovely place for it) and the next time you have a conversation with your aunt, just push and push and push her on the first thing she brings up.

Much of what she claims about Kerry is actually true of Bush and what he's done.

Or, you can chose to dismiss her as an idiot. It's all up to you. Good luck.

[Sparkly]

9. Where on earth did she get this nonsense?!

Not even Fox could have said he never wanted to go to Vietnam ("wanted to study in Paris," haha), not to mention the idea that he "said he's so much like Kennedy," or "plans" to slash intel funding...

This is just plain false.

[merh]

13. Laci Peterson bill

They do a pretty damn good job of debunking the Kerry vote on the laci and conner law, from what I have seen (which aint much) they seem pretty credible.

In an ad released July 8 the Bush campaign attacks John Kerry for missing many Senate votes but still finding time " to vote against the Laci Peterson law that protects pregnant women from violence." It's literally accurate, but artfully worded to avoid tipping off viewers to the real controversy over the bill Kerry opposed -- the legal right to abortion.

Kerry (and nearly half the Senate) supported a different measure that would have had the same effect without making reference to an "unborn child." That measure -- called the "Motherhood Protection Act'' by its sponsors -- would have made it a separate offense to inflict violence that “causes the termination of a pregnancy or the interruptions of the normal course of pregnancy.” It failed in a 49-50 vote with 43 other Democrats supporting it, along with Independent Sen. Jim Jeffords and four Republicans.

When the Senate passed the "unborn victims" measure, Kerry was among 38 senators voting against it, including 2 Republicans.

http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=215

[Rose Siding]

14. Tax money shouldn't go to religious groups....

that discriminate in hiring. That's the deal on that. Say the Baptists run a soup kitchen that won't hire a Jew. That's descrimination and can't be supported by the state.

Kerry plans on doubling intel funding.

The gas tax vote was 10 years ago and Cheney voted for even more gas tax hikes.

She was awfully patient to list all of these out for you. You have a wonderful opportunity to research whatever isn't answered in this thread and set her straight!

(Go to Talking Points Memo.com to get all the details about how Wilson is being unfairly smeared or simply ask: why would it matter? His wife was a covert operative whose cover was blown to get back at a political foe- it's still a crime as is the cover-up)

[OKNancy]

15. Tell her to read this

You should too. All DUers should as well.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=8118