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Whose integrity do you respect more: Hugo Chavez or John Kerry?

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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 02:55 PM
Original message
Poll question: Whose integrity do you respect more: Hugo Chavez or John Kerry?
Even though most or all of us plan to back Kerry in the general election, he needs to learn more about Hugo Chavez. The oil companies in Venezuela used to own everything in Venezuela, making the vast majority of the people poverty-stricken. Despite threats on his life, future and safety, Hugo Chavez nationalized the oil companies in Venezuela so that the people could have an increased standard of living and so that the oil executives could not just loot the country's resources for the benefit of the few. Chavez has enjoyed the support of 70% of the Venezuelan people. The concerns about the referendum process are that Choicepoint (the company that helped Katherine Harris disenfranchise African-Americans in 2000) is helping the opposition to Chavez and the Bush forces are strongly supporting the opposition to Chavez.

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good example of why your posts are helpful to Bush
no doubt you mean well, but the effect is divisive and plays right into the hands of the Republicans.

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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Bush is on the wrong side of this issue. Kerry needs to get on the right
side.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. BS
IMO this only helps.

It offers a bit of perspective to any swing voters who might be so foolhardy as to consider not voting for Kerry because he's 'too liberal'.

:)
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. exactly, we're helping Kerry triangulate
If the "Centrists" actually ate their own dogfood (which they don't) they would be happy the left is attacking Kerry, giving him credibility with the pro-war, anti-poor, pro-corporate "swing voters" that people still believe exist.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. hahahahahaha
'ate their own dogfood'

Thanks! I needed that. :D
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. That's not only funny, its also true n/t
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. good example of Kerry helping oil companies and screwing the poor
I'll admit it - if it was Kerry vs. Chavez I'd vote Hugo. Kerry is 100% WRONG to take the opposition's side in Venezuela.
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debsianben Donating Member (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. I'm Confused

It helps Bush to say "I'll vote for Kerry, but I think he's wrong to side with Bush on Venezuela"?!?!? I don't think think a critique of the Bush/Kerry consensus on Venezuela is going to drive anyway to vote for Bush.
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Ooooooo... and the freepers will use it against us, too.
And now, the good news and the bad news:

The only ones paying *that* close attention to DemocraticUnderground, is DemocraticUnderground.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
123. Hi.
:hi:
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. i`ll respect kerry when
he starts comimng up with realist programs to save this nations ass,untill then, he`s just a better skull than bush
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. There is no productive function in this poll, so I'll take a pass.
Nothing personal, genius.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hmm, a person who idolizes JFK or a person who idolizes Fidel Castro
these results are pretty sad.
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jayavarman Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Word
I'm not expert on venezuela, but hasn't Chavez been trying to silence his opposition recently? Questioning the validity of those petition names just like the felons in FLA were hassled?

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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Chavez said Kerry reminded him of JFK.
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 04:29 PM by MiddleMen
From old Reuters article:
The Kerry statement on his Web site made front-page news in Venezuela on Monday, nearly two weeks after Chavez had publicly praised the Democrat contender, hailing his health care plans and likening him to assassinated U.S. President John Kennedy.

Rough paraphrase of Kerry's response:

"Close your mouth you dictatorial terrorist supporter. I hate you, I hate you, I hate you. Your programs, that aren't all that different from JFK's old Alliance for Progress, are the signs of a mad man bent on creating a totalitarian society."

Alliance for Progress
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/A/AlliancP1ro.asp
U.S. assistance program for Latin America begun in 1961 during the presidency of John F. Kennedy . It was created principally to counter the appeal of revolutionary politics, such as those adopted in Cuba (see Fidel Castro ). It called for vast multilateral programs to relieve the continent's poverty and social inequities and ultimately included U.S. programs of military and police assistance to counter Communist subversion. The charter of the alliance, formulated at an inter-American conference at Punta del Este, Uruguay, in Aug., 1961, called for an annual increase of 2.5% in per capita income, the establishment of democratic governments, more equitable income distribution, land reform, and economic and social planning. Latin American countries (excluding Cuba) pledged a capital investment of $80 billion over 10 years. The United States agreed to supply or guarantee $20 billion. By the late 1960s, however, the United States had become preoccupied with the Vietnam War, and commitments to Latin America were reduced. Moreover, most Latin American nations were unwilling to implement needed reforms. The Organization of American States disbanded the permanent committee created to implement the alliance in 1973.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Castro thought JFK was the best president in Castro's lifetime. BTW.
JFK would have loved Chavez too (did you see the Alliance for Progress thread yesterday?).

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. A person who helps the poor or a person who helps the elite.
The results of globalism are pretty sad.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. So you like the Castro model of government?
Gee aint authoritarianism great
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. At least the part about kicking out the facists is pretty cool.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro
Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that

Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba
Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba
Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba

(((((yawn)))))


Pretty tiresome.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. Go Castro, go Castro, go Castro, go Castro n/t
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
60. Bombtrack, do tell us what the "Castro model of government" is. Thanks
Please describe what you think the Cuban system of government is (or hook us up with a link or two).

Thanks.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
82. I'm still waiting, Bombtrack
Please describe what you think the Cuban system of government is.

Thanks
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #82
157. Kick for curiosity
:kick:
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #157
162. And another
:kick: oh go on, do tell us. I want to know.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #162
167. telling,isn't it?
:)
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #82
163. Bombtrack - no description of the "Castro model of gov" yet?
Just for the sake of the discussion, I was simply interested in what you think the "Castro model of government" is.
That way one could fairly answer your question.
Otherwise who knows what you mean by the "Castro model of government"? :shrug:

Thanks again.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
76. Like we don't have that here?
Globalization is a greater threat to democracy than just about anything.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
100. vive Fidel
anything that rubs you the wrong way has gotta be good.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. Economy worse in Venezuela
1998 31.3% below poverty, 2002 47% below poverty

1998 Inflation 29.9%, 2002 31.2%

1998 GDP growth -0.9%, 2002 -8.9%

1998 purchasing power $8500, 2002 $5500

The only thing that's improved is unemployment, which has gone from 17% to 11%; but that's not particularly helpful if you aren't earning enough to buy anything. Which, frankly, is usually what happens when you convert completely to socialism.

Chavez has gone too far and it's no wonder there are people who are protesting his governance. He needs to listen. I can't understand anybody thinking any one political system has all the answers to governance.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Staple items prices are fixed in VZ. The poor are doing better.
Why do your numbers stop at 2002?
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Yeah and millions of more people are poor
because everything that everybody had is worth 80 percent less.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. They have land, schools, and jobs NOW. I'm sure they're happier.
You know gas is 19 cents a gallon in VZ, right?
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Yeah, which is why gas station owners are making absolute shit for
earnings.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. What? Gas station owners of the world unite and take over!!!
Are you seriously saying that land reform, building schools, transferring economic, cultural and political power to the poor is all bunk unless the gas station owners are living large?
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
58. Not gas station owners, per se, but their owners.
You know, Big Oil.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
80. And when we're done with that, can we hang the blessed (corporate) DJ's?
...after we burn down the disco, naturally.

Hey, are you really Morrisey? ;)
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
68. My heart bleeds n/t
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Lock-outs, boycotts, protests
It really isn't fair to do a comparison with 2003 to other years.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. The coup was in April 2002. The strikes in 2003. First quarter '04 was up
apparently. PDVSA has record profits this year. Ploughing tons of money into social programs which are building up wealth and power in the bottom four quintiles.


Why don't you get those numbers for us. The onese comparing the fascist years to first quarter 04.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Here
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Too funny. What's the y axis?
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 05:58 PM by AP
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Oops. Post 26 has the 2004 numbers. Best in Latin America. Hmm.
No wonder you need to rely on 2 year old numbers.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Your analysis is full of shit.
The poor are doing better in Venezuela and Kerry knows it.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. How Reuters Converts ...
How Reuters Converts the Largest Economic Growth of Latin America into Bad News

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1167

This past April 22 the economic news about Venezuela was the International Monetary Funds revelation that the country was heading for an economic growth rate of between 9 and 10% for 2004, which would situate Venezuela as the country with the largest economic growth of Latin America.

In order to say this, Reuters puts its headline like this: IMF Says Venezuela Will Not be Able to Maintain Current Economic Growth in 2005

Without a doubt, this figure is explained with the recuperation from the oil industry strike of last year. Nonetheless, the Reuters teletypists did not remember this when they intensely distributed the bad economic figures of 2003.

--cut--
Without a doubt, these are surprising commentaries to accompany the news of an economic growth of 8.8%. Imagine what they would say if the Chavez government had suffered bad economic news.

(more)

Which just goes to show what kind of job the western media is doing re:Venezuela.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Wow
Just... wow.

:(
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Well, no duh
Like I said, you can't compare 2003 to other years because of all the protesting. Obviously the economy is going to grow this year from last because it is calmer, even with the election stuff going on.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. So you want to hold the coup year against chavez, but you don't want to
praise him for what he gets done in the calm year?

Lord.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Not the point
I didn't compare 2003 because I didn't think it would be fair. 2003 was much more unstable than 2002, even with the coup. But that doesn't change the fact that their economy was still better back in the fascist years than it is now, even in 2004.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. The coup was in April of 2002. The rich have done everything
they could to sabotage Chavez ever since Bush took power. That Venezuela is doing better than all other SA nations during the Bush administration and after all that sabotage from Wall St and from their own upper classes is remarkable.

And clearly, flowing power down to the people is going to be in the long term best interest of the country and the whole economy. (Remember FDR.)

The oligarchs are trying to obstruct it, and they're using lame arguments like yours to hide the fact that Chavez is doing what America did from 1945 to 1970.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
62. That is Bush logic
We had a perfectly good economy in 2000, he implements his tax cuts, and it goes into a tailspin. 9/11 plays a part and when it has a natural recovery from that, he takes the credit. Jobs are coming back, unemployment is down; never mind the fact that it still isn't as good as it was in 2000.

That's what you're doing.

And the comparison to FDR is hysterical. Although he did appoint those extra SC judges, and probably shouldn't have. But he didn't appoint his own commission to rewrite the constitution, dispense with the Senate, and take full legislative authority for a year.

The how of change matters too, not just that change happens.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Pardon the intrusion.
Are you related to Windansea by any chance?
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. And Bush tried to take VZ economy down too. But then Chavez kicked out
all the fascists from PDVSA from mgt, and then they decided to strike, but it didn't work. So, when Bush finally jacked up oil prices to make his American friends rich (which is the whole point of his administration), his buddies weren't running things in VZ. Bush definitely tried to help them, and he's probably pissed that the citizens of VZ are reaping a financial windfall which was really meant for the oligarchs. But his time was running out and he couldn't wait any longer (the recall thing didn't go Bush's way).

Tell me, do you hate democracy in VZ because you simply don't understand the facts, or do you hate democracy in VZ because you actually like the idea that oligarchs should run government for their own benefit.

Or do you just like Kerry a whole bunch and you're not comfortable criticizing him?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Or do you hate democracy?
Because all I've ever suggested in these Venezuela threads is that Chavez do what he said and hold the election fairly. And listen to the opposition because everybody in a democracy ought to have a voice. But for some bizarre reason, when you're implementing a socialist government, normal democratic processes can be thrown out the window.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Read post 50. And if that's all you want, then I don't understand why you
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 07:24 PM by AP
post so much and understand so little about (or misrepresent) what is going on there.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Objectivity
There's far too little of it around here, particularly from the socialists. I became horrified when people were posting on Monday that throwing out all democratic principles and implementing socialist policies by force was acceptable because it was for the good of the people. I even PM'd you and told you that. But as long as people are going to blindly post pro-Chavez stuff, without even considering the opposition, I'll take the part of the opposition. Because that is what democracy is about. And nobody knows what is going on in Venezuela. Even a Venezuelan could show up here and post, and unless they were objective, we still wouldn't know. Political agendas. Even from poor, socialist Venezuelans.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. You're distancing yourself from your motivations? Now you're only
making the arguments for the fascists because nobody else will?

Have the courage to stand up for your principles. Nobody's forcing you to spend hours a day defending fascists.

By the way, people do know what's going on in VZ. You don't know. But other people do.

It might be time for you to shut up and do some research.

And if nobody could really know, why do you throw that word "socialist" around like you know what it means and you know that it's happening. Why do you argue so enthusiastically that the problem is the fascists aren't getting their voice heard, if you really don't know what's going on?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. I'm arguing against specific comments
That were made. People who said Chavez was right to force his changes through, even if he had to use force and circumvent democratic processes to do that. That is what people on this forum said. I don't need to go to Venezuela or read anything else to know what they said. They said it to me.

Arguing that people should attempt to be objective about what is happening in Venezuela is a whole different thing. I figured you could hold more than two thoughts in your head at the same time.

Are you denying that Chavez is pushing through a socialist government? It doesn't matter to me if he is, as long as he does it in a manner that respects the legislative process that exists in Venezuela and he isn't doing that. Maybe you're the one who doesn't know what's going on.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. He is quite right you know
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 08:58 PM by Vladimir
I did indeed say that Chavez was right to use force and circumvent democracy (if that is what he is in fact doing, which I do not see as proven), since his opposition is doing exactly the same thing. Or do you admire Gore for giving in and landing us with 4 years of this shit?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. Gore was right
When the Supreme Court finally ruled, Gore was right. It was the time to concede. It's too bad they didn't take a different legal course from the beginning, but what's done is done. That's the way it has to be unless you want to live in a state of perpetual upheaval. It may sound exciting and revolutionary to you, but it sounds like hell to me. A worse hell than George Bush even. But then, I don't think Nader voters are worried about that anyway.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Nader voter? Hahahahahaha
man you don't know your left from your far-left.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Doesn't matter
Vote for someone to the left of Nader, the results the same. Don't go pissing about Al Gore and how bad things are because he didn't fight Bush, when you never did a thing to help him get into office in the first place.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Where do I start
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 09:44 PM by Vladimir
a) I can't vote anyway, not being American

b) If I was, I would vote Democratic no matter who the candidate was (short of some government of unity Kerry-McCain ticket). Its the only disciplined position.

c) Gore didn't have the stomach for a fight. Chavez does, and thank fuck for that.

d) Just because I have said from day 1 that people should vote ABB doesn't mean I'm gonna pretend that Kerry's shit don't stink.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. I didn't think you could
But some people actually change their "circumstances" depending on the day of the week and topic of hte post. Anyway, we were disucssing circumventing democracy. Bush is doing it and he's wrong. If Al Gore had done it against the Supreme Court he would have been wrong. And Chavez doing it is wrong. If we don't respect our laws, there's nothing left. I don't adhere to the 2nd Amendment being the most important in the U.S., it's the courts that are most important and if we don't respect them and protect them, we've got nothing at all.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. I think 30,000 dead Iraqis would beg to differ
but anyway, where have I changed my circumstances? I have, from day 1 on this board, been ABB. I have also never pretended to be anything other than a Socialist. I have also never pretended to like Kerry. :shrug: You think voting Democrat involves liking the candidate? Gimme a break...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. You haven't
Some do, that's all I meant. And perhaps you're a bit more rational than some on the left or the far-far left as to voting. And maybe 30,000 dead Iraqi's would beg to differ, but it's just as likely 300,000 dead Americans wouldn't have. Because you never know what can happen when you start abusing the courts and the law, especially the Supreme Court and a Presidential election.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. Just for kicks
Do you like me, objectively, at all?
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. I have little time for your politics
and no opinion on you as a person. Et toi?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. Vice-versa
All the time for your politics, although I disagree; but think you as a person are polite, respectful, and thoughtful. Well, except that one time you wanted to punch racists in the face.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. Still do. Racists tickle my violent bone... n/t
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #105
137. and I want fascists in jail
That makes me a bad guy? Those doing the "repaired" sigs have alot of explaining to do.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #81
142. You're just hostile to any change that upsets the status quo that ...
...protected the hegemony.

It's VERY transparent.

If it were the other way around and the rich were getting more power, the change probably couldn't be too fast or too forced for you, right?

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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #74
129. Excuse me but what exactly is socialist about the same
basic ideas that John F Kennedy proposed over 40 years ago?

Kennedy too wanted unused lands to be given over to landless peasants. That's right the great JFK. It is not so radical an idea. In fact it used to be considered common sense. Why do people need to hold land that they don't even have the money to work for themselves. Either 1) you don't know what the land reforms are or 2) you consider JFK a socialist , which of course is absurd.

As far as objectivity you lose big time on that account. Kerry's speech was 95% against Chavez with one sentence thrown in about the coup. And yet you had no problem with that at all.

That is all I have to say on the matter. I know you'll have to have the last word so go for it.

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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. You mean like Sweden?
Spain? France? Looks like democracy works pretty well there.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. Because democracy is working
They listen to all sides in the legislative process, they don't take power and change the entire government simply because they have a majority, and they don't say they're going to hold elections and then play multiple games to keep the elections from happening. I'm not arguing against socialism as a form of government, I'm arguing against the way Chavez is implementing it and the fact that if he keeps going, he could easily become another dictator and Venezuela could be another Cuba. And while that isn't the worst thing in the world, it isn't the best either. And it sure as hell isn't democracy.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. You have to kick the fascists out first
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 09:04 PM by camero
It's worked the same everywhere. No country can keep democracy for long without booting the people who feel the need to control others.
It took Europe four revolutions to realize this and they are still fighting it.

When the US decides to get their hands out of VZ then we will know. The recall process has been a fraud from the beginning.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. Kill 'em all
Gotta' kick the terrorists out first, it's worked the same anywhere. No country can keep democracy for long without booting the terrorists who feel the need to control others.

Do you not understand that your arguments are the exact same ones George Bush is making? That's my whole damned point.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #89
97. The US loves fascists
http://www.guerrillanews.com/human_rights/doc4550.html

The United States is using a quasi-governmental organization created during the Reagan years and funded largely by Congress to pump about a million dollars a year into groups opposed to Venezuela President Hugo Chvez, according to officials in Venezuela and a Venezuelan-American attorney.

Some 2,000 pages of newly disclosed documents show that the little-known National Endowment for Democracy is financing a vast array of groups: campesinos, businessmen, former military officials, unions, lawyers, educators, even an organization leading a recall drive against Chvez. Some compare the agency, in certain of its activities, to the CIA of previous decades when the agency was regularly used to interfere in the affairs of Latin American countries.

It certainly shows an incredible pattern of financing basically every single sector in Venezuelan society, said Eva Golinger, the Brooklyn, NY-based attorney who helped obtain the documents through Freedom of Information Act requests. Thats the most amazing part about it.

One organization, Sumate, which received a $53,400 grant in September, is organizing the recall referendum against Chvez, Golinger said. The head of another group, Leonardo Carvajal of the Asociacin Civil Asamblea de Educacin, was named education minister by dictator for a day Pedro Carmona, a leading businessman who briefly took over Venezuela during an April 2002 coup against Chvez, she said. A leader of a third group assisted by the National Endowment for Democracy and its subsidiary organizations, Leopoldo Martnez of the right-wing Primero Justicia party, was named finance minister by Carmona, she said.


You jail criminals to keep them from hurting others. Which is what the oligarchy is doing in VZ. Or haven't you noticed that?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #97
103. National Endowment for Democracy
Yeah, what a bunch of evildoers.

http://www.ned.org/
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. Well its an arguable point
at the time when it was formed, the US was supporting, amongst others, Pol Pot - through organizations which would later be abolished in favour of the NED.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. It's an arguable point
But not evidence that because certain individuals receive money from the U.S., it necessarily puts them on the wrong side in their country or even that they're using it for electoral purposes.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. So, it would be OK for China and Saudi Arabia to pump money
into our electoral system and shape it accordingly?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. hehe, well they do
But, for example, just because Saudi Arabia supported a Muslim group in the U.S. and one of those people happened to be politically active, it doesn't necessarily equate to the Saudi's intentionally meddling in elections.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. What if that person
owned 75% of the TV stations and newspapers in the US?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. That's not what I asked.
Is it OK? Should the people put up with it? That's what our tax payer money does. The US should stay the ____ away from other people's elections, period.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. Leaping logic
Get me a list of all the boards that Ted Turner sat on while he ran CNN and get me a list of all the money from all over the world that went into those foundations, then tell me that some foreign country was influencing elections through Ted Turner. That's the logic you're trying to pass off here. The U.S. meddles in all sorts of ways, I'm aware. But it doesn't justify a dictatorship, IF that's what Chavez intends. Just like it doesn't matter what the Democratic Party has done since 2000, none of it justifies George Bush making his own choices and destroying this country. Maybe that's the disconnect, looking at underlying problems that always exist, instead of the man at the top.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. It may well not justify a dictatorship
but the space between dictatorship and liberal democracy is not devioid of shades of gray you know...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. You sound like John Kerry
That's all he's saying. No coups. Count the votes, keep that democracy somewhere in that shade of gray.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. WHAT VOTES? There are no votes. This is a signature based process.
Many have been proven to be fake or at least suspect enough for the verification process to be triggered. OK what else you got?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #128
134. votes, signatures,
you're really nitpicking here.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #125
130. Well I certainly hope there won't be another coup
although I never get tired of seeing fascists get their butts kicked by the people...
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. .
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 11:05 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #130
138. I hope for the best for Venezuela
Whether under Chavez or somebody else. Just the best for those people, they've been through enough hell.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. No, no no and no. Talk about leaping logic.
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 11:03 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
If there was a foreign group that directly put money into a candidates election and/or recall effort. Would you be cool with it. Simple question. You refuse to answer. It is illegal in this country for foreigners to contribute to candidates.

BTW what is this dictatorship you keep talking about?

Also it is not enough to be "aware". Do you support it or not?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #126
135. You're making assumptions
This isn't conspiracy theory 101 where you can just say something and therfore it's true. Like Bush caused 9/11 or you KNEW there were no WMD. In matters of governance, you have to have proof. You have no proof any foreign group is putting money into Venezuelan elections, just conjecture. Just like I have no proof Chavez is going to become a dictator, it's conjecture. But if you're the President of the United States, you better listen to both sides. Otherwise you might take the word of someone like Chalabi and look where that might get you.

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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. I'm making assumptions? Pot meet the kettle.
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 11:33 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Again with the conspiracy shit. Wow you got me there. I may not have proof that you like but that's what our government does. So cover your eyes nothing to see here.

If it's wrong for me to assume, then why do you do it?

"Just like I have no proof Chavez is going to become a dictator, it's conjecture." Then why are you even posting about this subject then? I deal with facts you deal with imaginary future scenarios. SEE YA!!

PS Don't bother reading anything from this link since I'm pulling it out of my ass. Also never do your own research you might discover some ugly truths.


http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipients/ned.htm
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #139
140. Logic illudes you
You don't know where the money from the NED is going any more than I know whether Chavez is going to become a dictator. You can't just take ONE point of view and repeat it as truth. Mine or yours. That's what I said, sorry you just don't understand. I notice you didn't respond to anything Chavez has done that might cause a little concern to some people. After demanding the facts be given to you. It's sad, but I'm not surprised.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #140
151. Are you shittin' me? There is no logic to argue against.
Edited on Thu Jun-03-04 08:30 AM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
All we have so far are your imaginary scenarios of what he might do or IF he does that. NYT articles and Ron Paul's description of the NED. And you still sit there sayting we don't know? This isn't conspiracyplanet.com articles I've presented. But oh well.
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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #140
154. Chavez has done a lot to concern elitists who are scared he'll
keep them from getting any richer.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #139
158. Great article, Smirky_W_Binladen. Tremendous.
Edited on Thu Jun-03-04 11:28 AM by JudiLyn
I found the NY Times article mentioned, and found the final lines interesting:
But critics say recipients of endowment aid do not have the same accountability that government programs require, which opens the door for rogue activities and freelancing. The agency overreached, those critics say, in Chile in 1988 and in Nicaragua in 1989, when endowment funds were used to sway the outcomes of elections.

Barbara Conry, an analyst at the libertarian Cato Institute, said the organizing philosophy behind the endowment was flawed.

"You ended up with the worst of both worlds," she said. "Everybody knew it was directly funded by Washington. That didn't fool too many people. But it wasn't really accountable."
(snip/)
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0425-03.htm

Commondreams reprinted it.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #103
108. Indeed.

The misnamed National Endowment for Democracy (NED) is nothing more than a costly program that takes US taxpayer funds to promote favored politicians and political parties abroad. What the NED does in foreign countries, through its recipient organizations the National Democratic Institute (NDI) and the International Republican Institute (IRI), would be rightly illegal in the United States. The NED injects "soft money" into the domestic elections of foreign countries in favor of one party or the other. Imagine what a couple of hundred thousand dollars will do to assist a politician or political party in a relatively poor country abroad. It is particularly Orwellian to call US manipulation of foreign elections "promoting democracy." How would Americans feel if the Chinese arrived with millions of dollars to support certain candidates deemed friendly to China? Would this be viewed as a democratic development?

In an excellent study of the folly of the National Endowment for Democracy, Barbara Conry notes that:

"NED, which also has a history of corruption and financial mismanagement, is superfluous at best and often destructive. Through the endowment, the American taxpayer has paid for special-interest groups to harass the duly elected governments of friendly countries, interfere in foreign elections, and foster the corruption of democratic movements...



http://www.antiwar.com/paul/paul79.html
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. See 110
And of course, there are people in the world that could find conspiracy in any group. Stamp USA on it and the left is on the hunt, and that's a fact.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. Whaaaaa?
See post 112. OK you got me. Put the word conspiracy in and just like that you debunked everything. These are facts my dear. If you don't want to believe them at least try to counter them with other facts. Do you even know who Ron Paul is?

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=National_E...


http://members.aol.com/superogue/ned.htm
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. Yes I know Ron Paul
And it's late and I'm honestly not interested in another debate on this. I'm sorry, I know it's rude, but I'm not. Certainly I'm aware of how much the U.S. muddles in other countries, but that's no excuse for a dictator to be a dictator. IF that's what Chavez intends to become, which we shouldn't be so naive as to think couldn't happen.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #117
120. What are Chavez's so called crimes you keep referring to?
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 10:44 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
IF, being the key word here. How come the dictator has to put up with a media that calls him sexually fixated on Fidel Castro. Where are the coup plotters? If he were such a "dictator" they'd be rotting in jail or dead. What would happen to coup plotters (non-republican) if they tried that shit in the US?

It seems to me you're just throwing out accusations, hyperbole and assumptions.

BTW it's not rude. You gotta do what you gotta do.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. How come he put himself in charge?
Wanted complete control for a year? We don't know whether Chavez will become a dictator or not, it remains to be seen. But some of what he is doing is disconcerting, he needs to quit playing games with the signature process and, as we say in America, count the votes. He said he would, he needs to do it.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. "How come he put himself in charge?" . ??????
What does this mean. He put himself in charge of what? The country? They elected him for Koresh's sake. He was overthrown and the people put him back in charge. Did you even hear his speech when he was returned to power? He is doing what any politician would do. Exhaust all legal means to keep his opponents at bay. So what? Gray Davis used all legal means at his disposal to stop the rethug financed recall. I guess he's a dictator too. Still haven't answered what crimes, what dictatorship?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #127
133. Here
Why'd he even ask for this when he had control of the assembly anyway? Sorry, I don't trust the guy. His opposition may well be wrong, but that doesn't make him right.

2000

"Chvez won approval from the assembly to legislate by decree"

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0861773.html

1999

"Venezuelas' constitutional assembly, which is controlled by supporters of the President, Hugo Chavez, has voted to suspend Congress."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/430424.stm
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. "Chvez won approval from the assembly to legislate by decree"
So he won it. How has he used it in a dictatorial way?

"Venezuelas' constitutional assembly, which is controlled by supporters of the President, Hugo Chavez, has voted to suspend Congress."

Congress still operates and laws still have to go through the democratic process to be enacted.

Also the supreme court released some of the coup conspirators and he had to abide by it. Again where is the dictatorship?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #136
141. Wow
Mind boggling. He suspended the Congress and you don't have a problem with that. He then got HIS Congress to allow him to rule by decree, and you don't have a problem with that. What if Bush did that? We're sitting here on this board with posts almost every day talking about Bush suspending elections and ruling by martial law, but when Chavez does it, it's a-ok. I just do not understand your thinking process.
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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #141
146. But you're making it seem like the opposition are a bunch of fair-minded
representatives of the people. Your argument is very one sided and too trusting of the oppositions motives and backing.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #141
152. And I'm telling you congress still operates just fine.
If you don't believe me look it up. John Kerry is going to inherit the same presidential powers as Bush. Shit he helped him get some of those himself. Are you telling me Ihould start trashing the guy because of what he MIGHT do with them?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #141
159. Could you provide a link to an article describing how Chavez PERSONALLY
suspended the Congress?

That would be interesting.

It also is interesting that the U.S. supported coup President for a day Pedro Carmona suspended all legislators, the Supreme Court and the Constitution.

That seemed just hunky dorey with our Republicans. I assume you would want to denounce that action, by all means.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #159
160. This looks like a good place to remind people of the President
Hugo Chavez attempted to unseat, Carlos Andres Perez. This is a timeline covering the time between his election to the Presidency and his impeachment:
1988 Dec 4, In Venezuela, former President Carlos Andres Perez was declared the winner of the country's presidential election.
(AP, 12/4/98)

1989 Carlos Andres Peres took office and instituted bold reform plans. Increases in fuel costs and government reforms in Venezuela sparked extensive rioting and looting with hundreds of people killed.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1)(WSJ, 5/22/96, p.A-16)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1989 An IMF loan was made to Venezuela.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1990 Dec 7, As President Bush arrived in Venezuela on the last stop of his South American tour, his chief spokesman, Marlin Fitzwater, warned Iraq that there was "no lessening in the threat of war," despite Iraqs promise to release its hostages.
(AP, 12/7/00)

1991 US Customs intercepted a large cocaine shipment and began investigations. It was found to be part of a CIA operation out of Venezuela.
(WSJ, 11/22/96, p.A12)

1992 Feb 4, In Caracas, Venezuela, there was a coup attempt but Lt. Col. Chavez failed to capture the presidential Palace and was forced to surrender. He served 2 years in prison.
(WSJ, 6/12/03, p.A10)

1992 Nov 27, In Venezuela some 15,000 rebel forces under Lt. Col. Hugo Chavez tried but failed to overthrow President Carlos Andres Perez for the second time in 10 months. The coup left dozens dead and Chavez was jailed for 2 years and then pardoned by Pres. Rafael Caldera. Chavez was elected president Dec 6, 1998.
(AP, 11/27/97)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)(SFC, 12/7/98, p.A9)

1992 Irene Saez, the Miss Universe of 1981, was elected mayor of Chacao. By 1997 she was being considered for national leadership.
(SFC, 8/19/97, p.A8)

1993 Aug 31, Venezuela president Carlos Perez fled.
(MC, 8/31/01)

1993 Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was impeached. He was later charged with misusing $17 million security fund for election debts and a lavish inauguration.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)

1993 Rafael Caldera was elected president and promised not to increase fuel costs.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-14)

1994 Jan, Banco Latino failed and sparked a run on the currency that put the nation into its worst economic crises. Chairman Gomez Lopez left the country just before a warrant for his arrest on charges of fraud was issued. Ricardo Cisneros was on the board and fled after being charged with playing a role in the banks failure.
(WSJ, 7/31/96, p.A1)(WSJ, 9/18/96, p.A14)

1994 Pres. Caldera pardoned Hugo Chavez for the 1992 coup attempt, and asked him to leave the military.
(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1994 Financial controls were imposed on the currency and the exchange rate was set to 170 to the US dollar. Almost the entire private banking system had to be nationalized at a cost of $8.5 billion, equivalent to three-quarters of the national budget. Responsible bankers took much of the money and fled abroad.
(WSJ, 12/12/95, p.A-15)(SFC, 12/8/99, p.A17)

1994 A riot and fire at the Sabaneta Prison in Maracaibo left 108 inmates dead.
(SFC, 10/24/96, p.C4)

1995 Venezuela devalued its Bolivar currency 41% to 290 from 170 to the US dollar.
(WSJ, 12/12/95, p.A-15)

1996 Jan, The government reopened the oil sector to private foreign investments.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1996 Apr 15, Tens of thousands of striking Venezuelan teachers defied a government order to go back to their classrooms. The month-old stoppage has kept more than 6 million children out of school.
(SFC, 4/16/96, p.A-9)

1996 Apr 15, Pres. Rafael Caldera was expected to announce increases in fuel prices by as much as 850% from the 13-cent per gallon current cost.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1,14)

1996 May 30, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was convicted on corruption charges. He was sentenced to prison for 28-months and fined for misappropriation of $17 million from a secret security spending fund.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)(SFC, 5/28/97, p.A12)
(snip/...)
http://timelines.ws/countries/VENEZUELA.HTML

It's also worth mentioning that he and his mistress were discovered to have deposited MORE money in U.S. banks than he had legally earned. Interesting, for sure.

He is a friend of the elder Bush, has lived in Miami and New York since he screwed the people of Venezuela royally, and has been connected with the coup plotters.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. When the fascists in his own country took things to far, Chavez stepped up
First he tried a coup. That failed. So he started a political party. And that became incredibly successful.

Perhaps Kerry and Chavez have the same motivations -- to fight fascists.

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rastignac5 Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. DU is obviously populated by a bunch of middle class gringos
There's not a country in all of Latin America as infatuated with Chavez as you guys are. Reminds me of the gringo lovefest for El Salvador's FMLN back in the 1980s. It's easy to participate in naive utopia worship when you're thousands of miles from reality.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rastignac5 Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. You "know several native Venezuelans"?
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 04:57 PM by rastignac5
Is that like some of your best friends being black?
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
51. No. It's like saying I know several native Norwegians.
Therefore, I know a few knowledgeable folks to bounce my political theories about Norway off of.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Chavez actually has quite a few allies
for his stances against imperialism , his programs of trade between Latin American countries, and stance against 'Plan Columbia'. The Mexican President comes to mind for the latter case. Obviously right wing leaders would not be included in that group.
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rastignac5 Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. He does have a few allies and a few good ideas, too, but
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 04:59 PM by rastignac5
but like I said, his approval rating in DU is about double that in Venezuela. Dont mind me- I'm just sneering at the ridiculousness of this poll.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. That's because we don't watch private VZ media, and we don't believe
the shit the NYT prints about VZ. (They had to fire their VZ stringer because he was in bed with the fascits, and they actually printed an editorial approving of the coup!).
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
65. Yeah, that's me, a middle class gringo
well, actually I am middle class, but I ain't never been cool enough to be called a gringo before. Cheers!

Tell me, those people that brought Chavez back to power after the coup in 2002 - they were middle class gringos, right?
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Padme Amidala Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
21. A poll won't effect the Election.
We all know we need to get rid of Bush. There is no question. However, Kerry has taken the wrong side on this issue. Hugo is love by his leaders very much and has the right to stay in power.

I know Kerry isn't perfect. He probably will need us to pressure him to take the right stances once he takes office. However, we all know that anything is better than Bush. And a small poll on the Democratic Underground between the soon to be Democratic Nominee and A citizen of a country in a different hemisphere will not make a difference in the Nov. 2nd election.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
45. Is there some sort of homing device on the Venezuela threads?
:shrug:
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
46. I raise my eyebrow every time....
I hear someone talk about elections being a bad thing. If he has 70% support, let the people vote!

Stinks of a dictatorship if you ask me.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Ha! Thread killer! REALITY SUCKS!
Respond please Chavez fans! (if you dare)
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Chavez isn't trying to stop the elections. It's amazing that people feel
so comfortable expressing their firmly held opinions without caring for a second to look into the facts.

Do you know that the recal process is brand new, so both sides have to argue over rules never even contemplated before on how to conduct the recall.

When the gathered the signatures the first time, the rules were that people had to go to a signature collection place where there were witnesses and computer access to databases, and all sorts of nice protections like that.

Well, the opposition said, "what about sick people in hospitals?" So they argued, and they compromised: "ok, there will be walk around lists."

Well, guess what? When they sat down to count the signatures, the lists collected at the stations were fine. But the walk around lists were shockingly crappy. Pages on pages of names in the same handwriting was one of several problems. Missing ID numbers was another problem, IIRC.

So, they had to engage in another round of negotiating how to conduct a repair process, and again, they've never done this before so both sides have to argue their position.

Naturally, the government wanted to start from the position that the whole reason of having the rules in the first place was to identify fraud and not count fraudulent signatures, but they were willing to have a repair program. Naturally, the opposition wanted a repair process that was more lenient than the rule for the walk around lists (which were obviously inadequate). So they agreed to a repair process. One of the biggest problems agreeing to the rules didn't come from the gov't, it came from the opposition. The government said that if people can come in and repair their signatures, they also want people to be able to come in and take their names OFF the list (and I'm not sure if this was only for people whose names appeared on the walk around list or if it's for people who appeared on either list).

So, you see, a lot of fascists assholes go arround BS'ing that Chavez doesn't want a vote. However, the truth is a little more complicated. It's their consitution, and their recall process. They just want it to be fair. And they want to make sure the rules set a good precendent.

And, at least in the repair process, it was the oppostion who were most afraid of having the election go forward because the rules for it were so fair that they thought they weren't going to be able to repeat the fraud they perpetrated with the walk around lists the first time, and they were afraid that a lot of people were going to be able to undo fraud if their names were on the list and they shouldn't have been.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. By the way, NYfM, and sgr2, why don't you know this stuff? How do you feel
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 06:16 PM by AP
comfortable asking these (I presume rhetorical) quesitons and claiming reality sucks when you don't know the facts?

And sgr2, you're the one who really saddens me. I sent you Edwards bumper stickers. It wasn't easy to get those stickers. We ran out and I had to BEG an out of state volunteer to give me his. I really embarassed myself gettting those stickers for you.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. TKO!
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. I'm going to start the count. If sgr2 or NYfM isn't off their knees and...
ready to fight in 10, it's a KO.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #52
143. Word on the street from actual (real live) Venezuelans
is that Chavez is bad news.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #143
145. Another word on the street from actual Venezuelans ...
... is that Chavez is the best thing to ever happen there.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #145
147. Hi, Billy Burnett! What you say sounds completely credible.
We really get a lot of disinformation, but a lot of us have learned to spot it.

It's great to see your name again! Yay. :hi: :hi:
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #145
148. Obviously YMMV
just reporting anecdotal testimony.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #148
156. When you have millions of anedotes on the streets protesting a coup...
...those anecdotes add up to the truth.

Add this to your Netflix list: http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?trkid=73&movieid=60...
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #156
165. Of course they protested the coup... duh!
that's another matter entirely. It doesn't equate then that Chavez is loved and adored.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. I don't understand what point you're trying to make. You want
to discount a single anecdote. You want to discount 10 million.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. Hey AP. Was there 100,000s some say 1,000,000 people
outside Miraflores Palace that day?

Hmmmm

What was the name being chanted?


Hmmmm I see OK later.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #168
169. Don't bother me with your anecdotes. If I don't hear it from CNN or NPR
I don't believe it.

Which reminds me, remember in the movie when they have the scene of the Chavez cabient back in power and they're watching CNN interview Carmona who's telling the reporter that he's in the palace and everything is cool and he's still in control?

Yes, if you hear it on CNN, it's true. I don't care if my own eyes can see the lie.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #169
170. Sorry, it won't happen again.
This whole thing is just getting so moronic. Isn't it?
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #170
171. At least it's clear which side of the argument is the moronic side.
Edited on Thu Jun-03-04 11:05 PM by AP
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #171
172. Indeed it is.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #172
173. Psst. Yes, it's the side where the most common argument is, "I don't know
what's going on -- I'll wait for CNN to tell me the truth -- but I just think it's important to be skeptical, even if I don't know the facts are."
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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #145
153. Another word on the street "Viva Chavez"
Couldn't resist.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #143
150. Word in the morgues from real dead Venezuelans
snipers kill
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #143
155. You're a fool if you believe that that's all you need to know
and if you believe this.

Psst. Check out who the people on the streets were supporting in April 2002 and how that ended the coup.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Yes, let the people vote for Arnold! (nt)
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Don't miss my previous 2 posts in this thread.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. He will, don't you worry
he has, after all, won popular support by both the ballot and the bullet. His opposition has lost both, repeatedly.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Reminds me of a famous Malcolm X speech. n/t
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
66. Chavez 72%, Kerry 28% - that says it all about DU :)
We'll all vote for Kerry, don't worry :)
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Some people who don't like Kerry are probably confused and deciding it's
more important to discredit Kerry than to side with what they probably see as a socialist.

There's a very curious triangulation with this issue.

I'm sure a lot of Kerry fans feel they have to hate Chavez if Kerry says so.

I got a tip for them: the Democrats like voters who can think for themselves, and not voters who can be told what to think. Kerry is going to respect you more if you criticize him on this issue. And any thinking voter is still going to vote for Kerry.

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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. it's not about discrediting Kerry, it's simple solidarity
Chavez is a working class hero, and plenty of liberals and progressives are starting to understand and practice solidarity with our fellow workers in Central and South America.

If Kerry was a good guy, he would stop trying to sway the 5% of upper middle class "swing voters" and he should let MoveOn and the unions go on a voter registration and get out the vote spree. Kerry would win in a massive, historic landslide.

But he isn't. Instead he's "triangulating" with the fascists and corporatists of our own hemisphere. Why? Maybe there really is little meaninful differences between Bush and Kerry. I'm waiting for Kerry to convince me. Well, I'll vote for him anyway, whatever. I'm in NY, we're going Dem no matter what. So my vote hardly matters :0
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. What Kerry is doing is what Kennedy did, and it worked pretty well then.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. Horse**** You have no admiration
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 07:54 PM by blm
for the man who investigated and exposed more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history?

You see not much difference between him and Bush?

Sorry, but that's sick, insane or incredibly ignorant of John Kerry's actual record.
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. no, my mind is still wide open about Kerry
All I know is what I read from one source or another. I've done my best to make sense of Kerry's investigation into Iran Contra and BCCI. I'm cynical and I don't expect much, but I can't think of any better investigation than Kerrry's.

Trust me, if Kerry deals with this Bush family parasite on America, and their corporate backers, he'll be FDR II, and our grandchildren will sing songs about him.
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TexasMexican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. What are you talking about Willis....
I'm voting for Chavez now. :P
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
77. I forget.
Which one's the pinko commie? I like that one.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #77
132. Sorry but neither one.
As Greg palast put it in a radio interview. Chavez is no socialist. The people of Latin America generally see socialism as the side that lost the cold war. A loser ideology.

Not saying I agree or disagree just that is hte general attitude there.

The ideas of John F Kennedy were not socialist, however. It was common sense. What possible reason does a landowner need to hold land the he can't provide the capital to work for himself when there are thousands of landless peoples?
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
87. Chavez doesn't need Kerry to "defend"
him as long as kerry is just a presidential candidate. that guy in spain zapatero does not need kerry to publicly side with them. they all support kerry beating bush even if kerry is critical of them or doesn't side with them.



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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. That's about the most perceptive thing
I have seen in any of these threads all night. I think a good rule of thumb is, at least in Britain, the more far-left the party, the more they are hoping that Kerry wins.
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. ha! good point
that's the truth!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
101. Cool.
Lol.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. anti-other poll kick.
:kick:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. lol
:)
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. Ah, what the hell...
:D
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Whoops.
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
144. Communism is not a solution to fascism
Edited on Thu Jun-03-04 07:17 AM by Loonman
Communism is a dead end, and it won't be long before Venezuela reaps it's bitter fruits.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #144
161. Could you provide links to articles on Hugo Chavez's communist
identity? I've never seen any reference to this anywhere.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #161
164. Addressing poverty = communist
Edited on Thu Jun-03-04 01:37 PM by redqueen
Didn't you know that?

When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. - Dom Helder Camara
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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
149. I think the REAL question is the integrity of Chavez vs his Opposition
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