Has there ever been a Conservative led revolution?

[DarkPhenyx]

Meaning that the Conservative public has risen up against it's more Liberal government. I can't think of one example. Everything I come up wit it's always a more Liberal populace rising up against the Conservative government.

[lil-petunia]

1. chile, argentina, Turkey, Pakistan, Nigeria, Zimbabwe,

the list is kinda endless, actually.

and what of Germany?

[DarkPhenyx]

2. Be specific please.

Like who fought who and why.

Germany was overthrown by outside forces, not by revolution.

<on edit>

As I recall, and I could be wrong, but Turkey moved a more Conservative religious state to a more Liberal secular state under Attaturk. He introduced broad literacy campaigns, diminished the influance of religion in the government...

[JP Belgium]

8. two out of many...

Chile 1973 - "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people." -
Henry Kissinger

Greece 1967 - "I asked Talbot whether America could have intervened the night of the coup, to prevent the death of democracy in Greece. He denied that they could have done anything about lt. Then Margaret asked a critical question What if the coup had been a Communist or a Leftist coup? Talbot answered without hesitation. Then, of course, they would have intervened, and they would have crushed the coup." - Andreas Papandreou

[SlingBlade]

10. And we were there for a good share of them

Yes, And unfortunately our hands are covered in the blood of those who resisted.
Good points

[RC]

3. I think we can build on this.

What a simple, easy to understand concept.

[progdonkey]

4. Conservatives reject change

Conservatives never rise up against the powers-that-be, because it is the very nature of conservatism to obey the powers-that-be and preserve the status quo. It's the nature of revolution for the social framework to be altered, the very thing conservatives fear.

[DarkPhenyx]

5. I would say that they do.

Their tool of choice for change has always been the Coup Attempt however, not the Revolution.

[tom_paine]

6. The Nazis rise to power in Germany

Although the Conservatives figured prominently, funding-wise, the Nazus weren't conservative, per se, but extreme Right-Wing.

But the Conservatives helped.

Alot.

[DarkPhenyx]

9. Does that constitute a revolution though?

:shrug:

Just a question. I can see where it would be if we included "ballot box revolution" in the equation. That being the case I would say that we have a cyclic revolution here in the US.

[DivinBreuvage]

13. The Nazis dismantled the existing government model

and put a radically different model in its place, so that would in fact be a revolution. Revolution is simply overturning the existing government model; it doesn't necessarily have to be accompanied by gunfire and bloodshed, though of course it usually is (and the Nazi revolution had a little of that too).

[DarkPhenyx]

16. Point taken.

I would then ask does a revolution have to take place in a relatively short period of time or can it be streached out over the course of a decade or more?

[DivinBreuvage]

18. An interesting question!

I think that, in general, revolutions do seem to have a relatively short lifespan.

In the case of unsuccessful revolutions this is because the government is still strong enough to bring sufficient power to bear early on to quash the revolution or drive it back underground.

In the case of successful revolutions, the government is already tottering, as is proven by the fact that it has lost the power to effectively suppress the revolution, and so the blows of the revolutionaries bring the rotten structure crashing down.

One also has to take into account, though, the period of discontent and anger stewing beneath the surface before it erupts into open revolution. This could be a period of years or decades.

[DarkPhenyx]

20. Agreed.

Rarely, if ever, does one see a revolution that comes out of nowhere.

[tom_paine]

25. You're correct. I was mistaken

Although it is important to remember that in 1932, Hitler only got about 36% of the actual vote AND LOST.

But you are correct, what the Nazis did was "Legal" Subversion or a Coup.

My bad.

[leftyandproud]

7. Reagan/Thatcher

It was a revolution, no doubt...a major blow to worldwide socialism.

[Burma Jones]

11. Spanish Civil War

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/9820/spain.html

[DarkPhenyx]

12. Is it a Revolution or a Coup?

Are coups considered revolutions or are they something different? I would contend that they do not constitute a revolution unless they have a strong support base among the people. Also, considering that this seems to be brought about by outside aggitators and not from within by the people themselves that it should fall into a different catagory.

I'm willing to entertain a counter argument. I'm not trying to defend the "all revolutions are Liberal" position, rather trying to come to a decent concensus. For me it would be nice if we could say all revolutions are Liberal but only because my conservative cow-irker called me anti-American yesterday. He then went on to say that he knew a revolution was coming. It would be nice to use it against him if possible. :evilgrin:

[DivinBreuvage]

14. A coup changes the PEOPLE in power, not necessarily the mode of government

a revolution changes (or attempts to change) the model of government.

[DivinBreuvage]

15. As for a strong support base among the people

that isn't even necessary. Neither the American nor the Russian revolutions ever managed to pull more than a fraction of the population into their support.

[DivinBreuvage]

17. The American Civil War

is an example of a conservative bloc (the Confederate states) attempting to overthrow its established system of government by force of arms, though the Confederate Constitution didn't differ much from the US Constitution (one major difference was that it specifically protected slavery).

They themselves called it a "second American Revolution" against the Yankee mudsills who, they thought, had betrayed and distorted the original dream of the Founding Fathers with their big-city finance capitalism, mob rule, abolitionism and so forth.

[Burma Jones]

19. Boy, we all missed the obvious, didn't we?

Good Catch

[DarkPhenyx]

21. Yup...missed that one.

:silly:

OK, so there have been revolutions led by Conservative forces within society.

[Zolok]

22. Conservatives favor coups...

because the classic coup model (as delineated by Edward Luttwak in his book "The Coup: A Handbook"-a volume everyone must read IMHO) is reasonably sparing in it's use of resources public and private.
Revolutions and civil wars are messy dangerous unpredictablew things...coups can settle the question quickly and quietly.
In a post coup enviroment...scores can be settled neatly and permanently.
The managers and police all stay on the job, the ministers and state secretaries and a few other political jobs change.

Classic conservative lead coups would include the deposition of Juan Peron in 1955 and the fall of Isabel Peron in 1976 for Argentina.
The deposition of Dr. Achmed Sukarno in Indonesia in 1966...definitely a conservative backed coup.
And of course General Pinochet's 1975 seizure of power in Chile.

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[DivinBreuvage]

27. Very very interesting post, Zolok, thanks.

I want to check out that book.

[Zolok]

32. It was written in 1977

and contained an interesting statistic to the effect that since 1945 there had been something like less than ten successful popular guerilla uprisings...whereas in the same space there had been some 200 successful coups.
Making the coup the dominant means to changing power in the world up til that point...

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. Mussolini's March On Rome

In the summer of 1922, Italy seemed on the verge of a civil war among its political parties; its government especially couldn't cope with the Fascists, who seized power in Bologna, Milan, and other cities. Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), head of the National Fascist Party, demanded the resignation of Italy's premier, Luigi Facta (1861-1930), a liberal though weak leader, and the formation of a Fascist governmetn, threatening dire consequences if his demand were not met. The "March on Rome" (October 28, 1922) by his Faacists compelled Facta to declare (belatedly) a state of siege and to decree martial law. King Victor Emmanuel III (1869-1947), Italy's constitutional head of state, refused to sign the decree, however, and dismissed Facta. Arriving in Rome from Milan in the comfort of a railroad sleeping car on October 30, 1922, Mussolini found only some 25,000 of his blackshirts (Fascists) occupying the captial; but by the next day thousands more of his followers came on special trains, surrounded the royal palace, and cheered the victory of Mussolini, whom the king permitted to form a government to reestablish order.

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/italy1922.htm

[Darranar]

24. Coups, yes....

popular revolutions? Not many.

[JayS]

26. The 1994 Republican takeover? :) n/t

n/t

[aldian159]

28. Cromwell?

Those dudes were pretty reactionary.

[bigbillhaywood]

29. Reactionary against Catholics and the Irish, but in other ways

very progressive-- smashed the monarchy, set up a democratic republican system, socialist in their economic outlook.

[Zolok]

30. Oliver Cromwell with his

snobby little prayers to "divine providence" that heavenly excusor of his every excess...set up England's first modern secret police system.
IF Oliver had a son he could count on...he'd a made himself King...he conjured with the notion believe me.
:)

And our notions of liberal of conservative don't apply to the Puritan republic anyway...
www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[htuttle]

31. The Taliban in Afghanistan

And the SCRI in Iran.