Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Tiangulating evengelicals: Let's compare Abu Ghraib to Sodom and Gomorrah

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 08:09 AM
Original message
Tiangulating evengelicals: Let's compare Abu Ghraib to Sodom and Gomorrah
After all this bible passage seems to be more about male rape than homosexuals. Read it.

Genesis 19


Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here-sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry <1> his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."
16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"
18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, <2> please! 19 Your <3> servant has found favor in your <4> eyes, and you <5> have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it-it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."
21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. <6> )
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah-from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities-and also the vegetation in the land.


Now the problem is that rape in Sodom is more or less implied, rather than directly stated, but look at the similar incident in Judges 19

Judges 19


The Levite's Concubine


The Levite and His Concubine
1 And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel, that there was a certain Levite staying in the remote mountains of Ephraim. He took for himself a concubine from Bethlehem in Judah. 2But his concubine played the harlot against him, and went away from him to her father's house at Bethlehem in Judah, and was there four whole months. 3Then her husband arose and went after her, to speak kindly to her and bring her back, having his servant and a couple of donkeys with him. So she brought him into her father's house; and when the father of the young woman saw him, he was glad to meet him. 4Now his father-in-law, the young woman's father, detained him; and he stayed with him three days. So they ate and drank and lodged there.
5Then it came to pass on the fourth day that they arose early in the morning, and he stood to depart; but the young woman's father said to his son-in-law, "Refresh your heart with a morsel of bread, and afterward go your way."
6So they sat down, and the two of them ate and drank together. Then the young woman's father said to the man, "Please be content to stay all night, and let your heart be merry." 7And when the man stood to depart, his father-in-law urged him; so he lodged there again. 8Then he arose early in the morning on the fifth day to depart, but the young woman's father said, "Please refresh your heart." So they delayed until afternoon; and both of them ate.
9And when the man stood to depart--he and his concubine and his servant--his father-in-law, the young woman's father, said to him, "Look, the day is now drawing toward evening; please spend the night. See, the day is coming to an end; lodge here, that your heart may be merry. Tomorrow go your way early, so that you may get home."
10However, the man was not willing to spend that night; so he rose and departed, and came opposite Jebus (that is, Jerusalem). With him were the two saddled donkeys; his concubine was also with him. 11They were near Jebus, and the day was far spent; and the servant said to his master, "Come, please, and let us turn aside into this city of the Jebusites and lodge in it."
12But his master said to him, "We will not turn aside here into a city of foreigners, who are not of the children of Israel; we will go on to Gibeah." 13So he said to his servant, "Come, let us draw near to one of these places, and spend the night in Gibeah or in Ramah." 14And they passed by and went their way; and the sun went down on them near Gibeah, which belongs to Benjamin. 15They turned aside there to go in to lodge in Gibeah. And when he went in, he sat down in the open square of the city, for no one would take them into his house to spend the night.
16Just then an old man came in from his work in the field at evening, who also was from the mountains of Ephraim; he was staying in Gibeah, whereas the men of the place were Benjamites. 17And when he raised his eyes, he saw the traveler in the open square of the city; and the old man said, "Where are you going, and where do you come from?"
18So he said to him, "We are passing from Bethlehem in Judah toward the remote mountains of Ephraim; I am from there. I went to Bethlehem in Judah; now I am going to the house of the LORD. But there is no one who will take me into his house, 19although we have both straw and fodder for our donkeys, and bread and wine for myself, for your female servant, and for the young man who is with your servant; there is no lack of anything."
20And the old man said, "Peace be with you! However, let all your needs be my responsibility; only do not spend the night in the open square." 21So he brought him into his house, and gave fodder to the donkeys. And they washed their feet, and ate and drank.


Gibeah's Crime
22 As they were enjoying themselves, suddenly certain men of the city, perverted men,<1> surrounded the house and beat on the door. They spoke to the master of the house, the old man, saying, "Bring out the man who came to your house, that we may know him carnally!"
23But the man, the master of the house, went out to them and said to them, "No, my brethren! I beg you, do not act so wickedly! Seeing this man has come into my house, do not commit this outrage. 24Look, here is my virgin daughter and the man's<2> concubine; let me bring them out now. Humble them, and do with them as you please; but to this man do not do such a vile thing!" 25But the men would not heed him. So the man took his concubine and brought her out to them. And they knew her and abused her all night until morning; and when the day began to break, they let her go.
26Then the woman came as the day was dawning, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her master was, till it was light.
27When her master arose in the morning, and opened the doors of the house and went out to go his way, there was his concubine, fallen at the door of the house with her hands on the threshold. 28And he said to her, "Get up and let us be going." But there was no answer. So the man lifted her onto the donkey; and the man got up and went to his place.
29When he entered his house he took a knife, laid hold of his concubine, and divided her into twelve pieces, limb by limb,<3> and sent her throughout all the territory of Israel. 30And so it was that all who saw it said, "No such deed has been done or seen from the day that the children of Israel came up from the land of Egypt until this day. Consider it, confer, and speak up!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. More from a Liberal Chrstian website.
God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades the angels to stay at his home. Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's house demanding "to know them". It was common in those times to use violent and brutal rape as a way to humiliate and establish power over another, not unlike in some prison situations today. It is also done by heterosexual males which is very unnatural for them. This was part of the terrible acts of pederasty, the opposite of today's loving homosexual natural relationships.

Lot attempts to protect the visitors sent by God by offering his two virgin daughters to be raped. The people of Sodom refuse them and the angels render the crowd blind. Lot and his family are then rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.

To Western cultures hospitality is far different than what it meant in biblical Southern and Eastern Mediterranean countries Today only certain Arab groups, like tuareg survivors or rural areas of Magreb, still use it but it's deeply present in most of these cultures 20 centuries before especially in Hebrew Biblical nations.

Hospitality, in these cultures, meant that if a person asked you for it, you were completely compelled to protect your visitor - even if that meant losing your property, family or life. Although today it may seem impossible, this DID work for centuries. It isn't strange if we think of it as a survival strategy: you never know who will need hospitality, specifically in hard lands or times. What Lot did was act as his culture required him to.

ALL of Sodom's people participated in the assault on Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority (7-10%) of the population been naturally homosexual. Therefore it can be assumed most of the violators were heterosexual. Also since there were "young and old" would indicate that someone must have been having heterosexual sex to produce the young!

Lot's offer to give his daughters to be raped suggests he knew the crowd had heterosexual interests - in fact offering young women for sexual hospitality was common. While it is unclear, even if homosexual rape was what the people were after it was do defile the strangers unnaturally between mostly heterosexual males against another heterosexual male as in pederasty. This rape attempt has nothing to do with loving, consenting homosexual love and was clearly not the reason for God's destruction of Sodom....

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:j3g9y7bxt1cJ:www.libchrist.com/other/homosexual/sodom.html+Sodom+and+Gomorrah+pederasty+rape&hl=en
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
punistation Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I've been wondering...
Tell me again why it's not referred to as "Gomorrah & Sodom?"

Kisses XXOOXX
Jen
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Now that you mention it....
Edited on Wed May-19-04 08:45 AM by AntiCoup2k
What exactly did Gommorrah do anyway?? They never explain that one.

Actually though, the real kinky stuff happens after Lot and his kids have left Sodom behind and Mrs. Lot became a really big salt lick.

The girls say "Hey, since dad got our boyfriends killed, and there ain't exactly a lot of guys running around up here in the mountains, why don't we get daddy drunk and fuck him"

So the same chapter that supposedly shows God's wrath against homosexuals also implies His approval of rape (as quoted above) and incest, as shown here.

Is this why the Freepers like to quote this one all the time? ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. It is a strange story
I don't know how the hell anyone interpreted it as against gays. Anyway, Gomorrah is a sister city, like Minneapolis/St Paul.

Never the less there are people who take the story seriously. Particularly Bush supporters, so let's use to identify Bush-co as Sodomites. They use it on the less applicable gay marriage issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. The really horrifying thing about this story
is that Lot, supposedly the only "righteous" man in the city, was quite willing to send his two young daughters out to be gang-raped by the crowd.

Cultural relativism be damned; that's awful. But it does reflect the principle behind most sexual "morality" in the Old Testament: a female's sexuality was the property of her father, husband, or owner, to do with as he wished. And we _still_ hark back to this sexual code for our own standards. . .!!!???

Funny, I've never heard a sermon or read an article about this aspect of the Sodom & Gomorrah story. Fundies use the story to rant against homosexuals. Liberals say it's about the code of hospitality.

Somebody's come up with a theory that the "angels" were actually stranded space travelers, who knew the nuclear power device on their ship was about to blow. They came to warn the people in nearby cities, but the citizens wouldn't listen. Makes as much sense as the standard Biblical commentaries on this story!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
5. i so hear retardness of man, no reference to
homnosexuality. though the act is male on nale, it is all about the perversion adn power and abuse of man thru sex

so another place church screwed up on interpretation and micro'd it instead of macro view. also,...... the connection of leviticus story and the different telling of has me in quandry to the interpretation.

wa interesting to read passage. i am going to have to spend a month studying bible here./ want to read revelation again before talking to ministers so when they hold up bible i can go beyond there interpretation

so i thank you for starting this thread

so much to learn
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. I think the stories have gotten mixed up a lot
This is more than coincidence I think. These two stories are almost identical except for the Divine intervention part. The bible is sure a morbid and bloody book. Why would he cut up his concubine who saved his ass from assault? Why send her body parts through-out Israel? I guess I am too dumb to get the point of this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. He's holding the twelve tribes responsible for the crime
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. The disturbing part of the story is that it seems to call her a whore
when it appears she has just had a failing out with her husband, and went home to live with her parents. It makes no sense butit is pretty clear we're talking about rape and not homosexuals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kick
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC