CNN: "Columbine killer's parents: Don't need forgiveness"

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Central/05/16/columbine.parents.ap/index.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- In their first interview since the Columbine High School massacre, the parents of one of the killers said they feel no need to be forgiven and didn't realize their son was beyond hope until after he was dead.

The couple took issue with people who say they forgive them for what happened.

"I haven't done anything for which I need forgiveness," Susan Klebold said.

They acknowledged they missed signs that their son was in trouble. Klebold and Harris were in a juvenile diversion program for breaking into a van and stealing tools and other items in January 1998.

[DarkPhenyx]

1. They're right.

They don't.

[liberalhistorian]

7. I agree, they don't,

and the victims families and others who've demonized them need to realize that they also suffered the loss of a child, just like the victims families, and that just because their sons were the ones responsible for the deaths of others doesn't make their loss any less painful. In fact, it's probably MORE painful because no one gives a shit and people expected them to feel the same way because of what their sons did and they were ostracized and isolated.

And no one expects their kids to go on a shooting rampage at their school, what did these families think they should have had, a crystal ball?

[DarkPhenyx]

10. Isn't it frightening when we agree.

particularly w/o a 2 hour screaming match beforehand? :)

[liberalhistorian]

11. LOL!

Yeah, I guess it is!

[boobooday]

2. didn't realize their son was beyond hope until after he was dead.

Did CNN really write that? Is that exactly what they said, or did some genius in the newsroom produce that?

That strikes me as a very strange turn of phrase.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[question everything]

4. Also on the AP story

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040516/ap_on_re_us/columbine_parents_4

[rumguy]

3. there's wisdom in their words

there is no doubt in my mind that the culture of that school was "toxic" - that's not an excuse for what happened it's a partial explanation.

just calling them "monsters" doensn't cut it and it doesn't help us in trying to prevent another Columbine....

[kiahzero]

48. Exactly

Also a relevant lesson to apply to the Abu Ghraib torture issue - calling people "monsters" doesn't solve systemic problems.

[Columbia]

5. I wonder if the parents agree with BFC...

K-mart and Lockheed made em do it...

[toddzilla]

6. might want to watch the film again..

seems you missed the entire message.

[Columbia]

9. Or was it Dick Clark?

[Cocoa]

8. let's not forget the real culprit

Clinton's penis!

[seabeyond]

12. didnt the father go out with son and shoot of bombs

help him to build them. didnt they know there children were hurting. werent they connected enough with the boys to hear the destructiveness in the boys conversations.

one of the homes, i dont know which one, there was plenty of evidence, unmistakable evidence there were problems. and the parents ignored it and continued on their lives.

to deny their part in it doesnt make it so. i also have empathy that they lost their son and all those others that lost their loved ones equally, pain and loss was felt all the way around

and yes, for them to not see a part of them being forgiven is just another example of them not owning their part in the deal. consistant with their raising of their son

[pop goes the weasel]

40. oh heck

if you judge future criminal behavior on what boys blow things up, we may as well segregate the schools by gender and then do a lock-down on the boys. My son-in-law, my ex-husband, all the geeky computer nerd boys I know, all the ROTC-types I grew up with, my brother, my dad...hell, they all blew things up.

The question is, do they want to blow things up just for the sake of blowing things up (normal) or do they want to blow things up because they want to hurt someone (not normal)?

[seabeyond]

58. not so much judging

more trying to get it all. i have two young boys 6 and 9. read your message as oldest was asking me to sit outside so he could shoot the pellet gun.

i am so yuk to gun, yet here i am trying to embrace, teach responsible, al in a yuk, wink

i am a tryin. i would think though as a guy. you could recognize the guy bombing and exploding in fun, and the one in meanness. i could with my two brothers. the oldest just did stupid things. my other brother, he had a mean streak. i could hear it in tone, see it in the eyes, and the glee in the doing the wrong.

[pop goes the weasel]

60. You'd think so

that people could tell sadism when they see it, but surprisingly large numbers of people can't. Perhaps they have been trained to ignore their own instincts, or maybe their instincts are dull to start with. I have no idea which it is. Add to that the tendency a parent would have to not believe that their own child could be vicious, and it's easy to see how a psychotic liar of a child could get past his parents' radar. We have to remember that not only the parents, but all the adults involved, completely missed what was happening.

[GiovanniC]

59. Hell, I'm 24

And I still like to watch things blow up. Non-living, inanimate things, of course.

I'm not a psychopath or a sociopath, and I'm not violent toward living things in the least (except mosquitos and such).

I'm just a male, and many males enjoy blowing things up. That's probably why having a female president wouldn't be such a bad idea.

[TN al]

13. I think y'all dropped the ball on this one...

...by blaming the school Klebold seems to have abdicated her parenting responsibility to the school. Whatever shortcomings the school may have had you have a responsibility as a parent to raise a child so that they can be a productive contributing member of society. A responsible parent would have instilled values in their child so that when confronted with what she claims was at Columbine they would have the inner strength to resist. This isn't to say the child would be able to resist all peer pressure but at least give them enough of a grounding so they will recognize that killing others goes against their personal values. Klebold is just demonstrating the same awareness that resulted in her raising a mass murderer and by your responses you have, for the first time, made me ashamed of DU.

[dsc]

16. We are not responsible for our kids

nor are our kids responsible for us. My parents rarely drank, I was an alchy. My parents were straight, married for over 40 years, I am gay. We aren't our parents. If a kid gets repeatedly treated like shit for years he eventually thinks he is shit. Then he usually kills himself. This time he took people with him. Parents aren't God.

[Fescue4u]

46. In Klebolds case

" If a kid gets repeatedly treated like shit for years he eventually thinks he is shit."

If he thought he was shit, then he knew himself very well.

[liberalhistorian]

61. Oh, PLEASE!

I'm the mother of a teenage son and I have a psych and sociology background, and that's bullshit. Klebold made his own choices in the end and a lot of the time parenting has nothing to do with it. You have kids from the best homes and the best parents who turn out to be total monsters, and vice versa. You can "instill" all of the "values" that you want in your kids and in the end, it is THEIR choice to follow them or not.

These people are haunted and harassed enough, and they've never been able to fully grieve their child because people like you expect them to hate their own child and not feel any grief because of what the kid did, and that's just wrong.

[bread_and_roses]

62. Thank you

I havn't followed this particular story, but some of the comments in this thread about parents' responsibilities and culpibility in general leave me shaken and saddened. Again, I know nothing about these particular parents, but let me assure those of you who seem to think that a good and responsible parent will always know when a child is troubled. It just ain't so. The complexities of both individual personalities and of the parent child relationship are such that being "blinded by love" is probably more typical of loving parents than of young lovers.

IMO, the contemporary nuclear family may be among the worst of constructs for raising children - and yes, I live in one and have raised a child in one. It is dangerous for children, impossibly difficult for parents, and dysfunctional in executing its' social task of preparing children to grow up to be responsible adults.

[liberalhistorian]

64. Exactly!

Teenagers are VERY VERY GOOD at keeping things from parents and other adults around them and at hiding their true nature from them. That's why you get all of these "well, he was such a nice kid, I never expected him to do something like that" all the time when teens DO blow their stack. Klebold and Harris themselves said, in the video they made right before the shootings, not to blame their parents because (and they quoted Shakespeare, but I can't remember the exact quote or from which play) bad seed can come from good and it was their choice in the end.

[dsc]

14. I really feel sorry for those parents

They are as much victims as everyone else. Worse, they don't get to morn their kids without being criticized for excusing them. Honestly when I first heard of this and the bullying that they endured I thought back to middle school and the fantasies I used to have of seeing my tormenters suffer. I never totally snapped like those kids did, but I also wasn't tormented as badly as they were either. Now, as a teacher, I make sure that bullying isn't tolerated around me. I know what it is like and Columbine has shown me what it can lead to.

[TN al]

17. Let me fill you in on what a "breeders" responsibilities are.

Until that kid has reached his majority his actions, and ability to do them unfettered, are the responsibility of the parents. It appears that your parents sucked at that responsibility. Evidently Dylan Klebolds did too. They are not victims as everyone else because they created the atmosphere that made all of the victims.

[dsc]

18. How would my being bullied in school be my parents' fault?

I didn't tell them due to shame over the reason I was bullied. They weren't mind readers. They certainly couldn't be held responsible for my fantasies. I kept my grades up out of fear that they would actually look into my schooling more closely if I didn't. In short, I went to a great deal of effort to protect them from knowledge. I would imagine Dylan did as well.

[TN al]

19. Did you kill anybody?

[dsc]

20. No

but I often considered killing myself. I don't think you can begin to understand how helpless one can feel in the position I found myself back then. I work at a school now. I am often the first one to encourage parental responsibility. But, there is a limit. When a school lets the systematic torture of a kid to go unchecked as they apparently did here, the school takes over a large amount of the blame.

And on edit I wish to note that I never used the word breeder and wish you wouldn't either.

[TN al]

23. Did you stockpile weapons?

Did you skip school? Did you go on spending sprees that should cause your parents to take note? Did you adopt Nazi philosophy and mannerisms? Thinking about killing those bullying you and doing it are quite different. You are also assuming facts not in evidence. Systemic torture? This was a high school not Abu Ghareib prison. I am sorry for your suicidal thoughts but perhaps you did not carry them out because your parents did a better job than you are willing to credit them for. Don't give Klebold a pass because you hate Mom and Dad. Don't be like Klebold either, take some damn responsibility.

[dsc]

26. Some responses

First, I have no idea where you would get that I hate my parents. I guess the version of English your computer shows you and what I typed are different.

Second, No I didn't go on spending sprees etc. But, their weapon stash wasn't all that uncommon for a rural area. My parents didn't own any guns but several of my friends had at least as many guns as are described in the Columbine situation. The NAZI stuff was in a private journal and most parents wouldn't read their kids diaries. I know mine didn't read my diary or they would have known I was gay. The change in appearence is much more common today than it was when I was a kid. That would have raised eyebrows when I was young but didn't in 1999.

Third, Is torture the right word? I guess it depends. I sure felt it was. I was beaten up, stripped a couple of times, spat on, called all sorts of names, ostracized, and never knew what might happen next. From what I read they had all of the above and had to be the servents of these athletes at lunch. Plus the physical stuff was more brutal from what I read. Maybe it was abuse instead of torture.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

34. self delete

[dsc]

35. a few more responses

First, I didn't see the movie but from what I was told the title referred to an activity that took place during school hours. Thus the Hitler salute wasn't done at home but at school (or more accurately off school grounds but under school supervision). Thus the school would be the ones to blame would they not?

Second, the stripping referred to being thrown out of a locker room. Yes it got attention. We used to shower in gym class.

Third, Even suburbs in Colorado have high rates of gun ownership. I grew up on a small city that would be about as close to Erie PA as Littleton was to Denver. Yet gun ownership was quite high and thus LIttleton's proximity to Denver hardly rules out high rates of gun ownership.

Fourth it isn't a lifestyle choice nor does it preclude having children. Just ask Melissa Ethridge and the several other gay and lesbian parents.

[dsc]

47. kick

[TN al]

25. Reply on edit...

...are you as quick to ask homosexuals the same thing? I have not once seen that request when they are using it.

[dsc]

27. Yes

I flag it whenever I see it. Your use of it in quotes I took as implying I had said it, when I didn't.

[TN al]

29. 1000+ posts and this is the first time I've seen it...

...credulity is being strained.

[dsc]

31. I haven't seen the word used that often

but when I have I have criticized it. I don't frequent the lounge where I have been lead to believe words like that are used more often than they are in the political fora. I know for a fact I have participated in two threads on this subject and both times said it shouldn't be used.

[dsc]

32. BTW

Here is a thread where I tell someone not to use breeder.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=75896

[Pithlet]

33. It is an insulting term.

And certainly not the first time it has been used here at DU.

[dsc]

36. The poster was claiming it was the first time I had noted the term

he was wrong about that too but to be fair that is what he was saying.

[Pithlet]

37. Oh, okay, I see.

[dsc]

38. It's cool

Just wanted to be fair and accurate. I missed your self delete but thanks for having my back with the poster.

[Pithlet]

42. I appreciate it.

I don't want to get on anyone's case for the wrong reason :)

[last1standing]

51. Reading through this thread, I kept wanting to jump to your defense.

But then after reading through it, I saw you really didn't need any help from me. It's people like you who make me proud to be a DUer.

[dsc]

52. thank you

I really appreciate that. Some days I am beter than others.

[progressivebydesign]

24. No but the parents were ignorant or just willfully ignored things..

The kids that did this were subsisting on a culture of violence. Violent movies, games, etc. The parents acknowledged that they knew he was in a group called the "Trench Coat Mafia". I don't know.. I'd say that would send flags up for me. The modern parent thinks that kids are adults at 13 and should be left to their own devices... lest the parents be uncool or taking time out of the parent's lives to actually parent. Parenting doesn't stop at high school.. the most successful, well-adjusted kids have parents who are monitoring, adjusting to, and dealing with their kid's health every day.. mental and physical. The kids obviously had mental problems, and found each other at school. The parents were ignorant, but not totally responsible for this. I still mantain that you can't have kids grow up in a culture of extreme, impersonal and pervasive violence and be surprised when these things happen. If all the little girls are dressing like Britney Spears, you can't tell me that media has no influence on kids. It's a parent's job to monitor that.. but hey, that would require actual parenting. Parent is a verb, not a noun.

[Djinn]

49. while I wouldn't abdicate the parents of any and all responsibility

blaming them completely for anything and everything that their kids do is ridiculous - I (and my three siblings) all made varying mistakes of our own before reaching the age of eighteen - true none of it was damaging to other people and none of it had long term consequences - but NONE of it was my parents fault.

It amazes me that a society that is willing to charge children (let alone teenagers) with criminal responsibility wants to blame the parents at the same time

BTW - even if his folks HAD read all the little signs that could be applied to a million kids who never end up hurting anyone - just WHAT exactly could/should they have done?

I wouldn't mind betting that all those who say that the parents of the Columbine murderers should have known "what was under their noses" would be in for a mighty shock if they found their kids diaries/secret stashes or could read their minds - this is an instance when you might not even know you're sitting in a glass house

[slackmaster]

15. I pity them but they are culpable IMO

Maybe not legally actionable, it wasn't all their fault, but there were way too many obvious problems going on right under their noses - Bomb-making supplies, questionable literature, shotgun barrels getting sawed down to a less than legal length.

I can't begrudge them whatever rationalizations they use to cope with the horrible losses they've suffered, but they were asleep at the wheel as parents. The memories they will never be able to escape are enough punishment for the Klebolds.

[DrWeird]

28. Yeah, they're culpable, but so are the teachers, the admins,...

the pastors, the bullies, the friends, and everybody who let that atmosphere perpetuate.

[dpt223]

45. no doubt

everyone involved has some share of the responsiblity

[dsc]

41. I don't mean to hold them totally blameless

but I also think they are to be pitied more than blamed. Many of the things these parents were supposed to notice we also seen by the school which did nothing. Clearly the school shoulders a lot of blame here. They had nearly all the signs the parents did plus they saw the bullying culture that was at that school.

[seabeyond]

43. firstly this is one of my issue. it isnt the schools job

it just isnt. i am saying we want our school to do and obviously they cannot. they need the help of the parents. there are things we can learn and implement in the school and we havent done. the schools put a no tolerance that from what i see does nothing more but create more of an ugly. the things that need to be done, are the things parents and students themselves have to jump into and do.

secondly, i dont necessarily blame parents cause it is what it is, a lesson to learn, for all of us. i cannot make the parent do there job, and it fixes nothing for them to live in guilt. i wouldnt want that for them and wouldnt suggest it, isnt helpful and does nothing for anyone.

[dsc]

44. Yes it is, in part

It is my job as a teacher to make sure the kids in my class are safe. It is my job to make sure my students feel valued as well. If I let the gay kid or the fat kid or the geek to be hurt or shamed I am at fault. That is apparently what happened to some extent in Columbine. Now it is by no means only the schools job but it is part of the school's job.

[qanda]

21. Parents get hauled into court all the time for the actions of their kids

Why shouldn't they be sorry? If my child did something like that, I would be sorry that someone I had helped to create and form had done something that destroyed the lives of so many people.

Now, I can understand them not needing forgiveness if it were just a tragic accident, but this was something that they totally dropped the ball on-- didn't the kid have weapons and the such right in his room? If they aren't partially responsible for what their child did then who, please tell me, is?

[progressivebydesign]

22. Yahoo had the worst headline on this..

It's gone now, but it read this morning (I'm paraphrasing) 'Columbine Killer Parents Not Sorry'. I totally understand where the parents are coming from.. How many families have you known where one kid is problematic, the others are okay. It would be a horrible thing to live with.. knowing your own child had done this.

I do think they were pretty ignorant of what their kid was doing. I mean.. they even say that they KNEW their kid was in something called the "Trench Coat Mafia". That would pretty much send alarms up for me.. if my kid was into something that smacked of a secretive or violent group. Also, when kids dramatically change their appearance, and don a costume, it's almost always a sign of problems manifesting.

But.. how many other kids show those same signs and don't end up being mass murderers? Sometimes the grow out of it, sometimes the end up criminals, and other times they kill themselves. Parents need to monitor their kids better.. but America tends to distance themselves from the kids when they hit 13 for some reason... as though they can raise themselves, and that any delving into their lives would be an intrusion. Sad, sad, story.

[Djinn]

50. respectfully HUGELY disagree with that one

"Also, when kids dramatically change their appearance, and don a costume, it's almost always a sign of problems manifesting."

Thinking back to my teenage years between my siblings friends and myself we dramatically changed our appearance (often practically overnight) to (amongst other things) goth/punk/hippie/radical socialist/skater/surfer/trend slave etc etc.

It really didn't mean anything other than we were between the ages of 13 - 18.

[seabeyond]

39. so parents what do you do with a teenager

let them brew in all this alone. i dont think so.

i know there are things about both my children that will challenge them. this is cause i spend my life with them. i listena dn they talk. and talk and talk. they follow me around and talk, i sit on toilet and they talk. they knock on my shower door and talk. go away i say. that is the line.

my oldest, 9.....above average in height, but weighs the same as brother two years younger. small frame. oooosh, glasses, lol and smart, articualte, huge vocabulary. started looking at encyclopedias at two, read them at 5.

as a parent, i can say, easily recognizable that there may be some issues. and at 9 i have done a lot of things to encourage self esteem, and as he grows i will continue to suggest things. like one, he could be a good athlete, so encouragement for him to put in the time and become good. that alone will help a lot. i have lots of sleep over with special boys, lol. the ones that have character and get along with others. one particular has become a part of the family. i do things for the class and bring humor and fun to students, bleeds over to edmund.

i may not be able to do these things with edmund as he grows, but i do have faith, and confidence i will find other creative things to help him along the way

i also understand that there will continue to be the bully, and to give edmund the confidence to have the courage to stand bold. dont ever tuck tail with a bully.

i dont know what is to come, i do know though, that i am doing all i can to support and help and be aware

that is what a parent does.

a lot of parents now a days simply arent. we are allowing the children to raise self, and that is a fearful place for a child.

i have older nieces and nephews that father and i sit and listen and talk to. through highschool.

this is an overall social issue that premeates throughout society being fed by all that we are today, the politics, the religion the neighborhood that we live in

[bread_and_roses]

63. I assure you

it is quite possible for a parent to do all the good things that you are doing, to be attentive, engaged, supportive, active...and still sometimes have a child about whom others will say "they must have been careless and neglectful parents." Human behavior is still largely a mystery.

[dsc]

53. Link to Brooks' column

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/15/opinion/15BROO.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists

[laylah]

54. As a former

Coloradan who was 45 minutes north of the carnage, may I just say that while I have always felt that these boys were also victims, I have said more than once, "where the HELL were the parents"!? If my kids were making, and blowing up bombs in my garage, I sure as hell would be on it like a duck on a june bug!

That said, stopping school bullying IS part of a teacher's job, as well as the parent's. My daughter was terrorized for months because she chose to shave her head. She called for mediation twice, the most culpable girls in attendance, and it STILL continued on. THAT is when I got involved...I called the Principal and told her that I thought that maybe she would prefer to hear from me before she heard from our attorney...the bullying STOPPED immediately. My point IS, educators KNOW it goes on and many of them turn their heads because the one's doing it are the "jocks" and "preppies"...

Jenn

[seabeyond]

57. gosh i am so interested in this subject

thanks for sharing this. and how did the girls treat your daughter after, make it worse in ways, or did it fix it.

i am beyond seeing who is to blame. we all have to work together i just always bottom line it to the parents. see, you had to get involved.

i am thinking more a program where there is a group council and adult mediator. more of a conscious effort for school to practice a communal enviroment. working together. i think this could be fun extracurricular, yet teach so much.

right now i am dealing in elementary and pre jr high. i am having a tough time trying to figure it out.

i have been to columbine. it is a beautiful enviroment. not far from denver. nothing horrifying in this enviroment

[noonwitch]

55. The parents shouldn't have to spend the rest of their lives on their knees

They lost their kids, too. They can't help but feel responsible and have undoubtedly been shunned by the community.
At some point the other parents need to let their anger go.

[TexasMexican]

56. IMO the Parents are responsible.

They are the ones that raised fucked up kids. It wasnt the fault of guns, music, TV, or video games.