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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:55 AM
Original message
Dare we say it outloud? Americans beheaded Berg
did i say that? no, you didn't hear that from me. where did i get such an unpatriotic notion? the white house said it was a terrorist guy in a ski mask, and we're gonna git em'. but since they won't give us any truth anymore, we speculate wildly.

many, not just paranoid desperate mo, many people are now seeing it, and saying it.

many people like me, have been driven half insane by the secretive and obvious plans of bushco. many of us believe they orchestrated 9-11, many cannot bring themselves to believe it.

since buscho's coup, over 20,000 innnocent people have died, and the arab world hates us beyond imagination. the rest of the world is following suit. the rest of the world sees what most of us here do not. this is the powerplay of the bushco maniacs. this is their last 6 months to do what is is they have planned, and no one, and nothing will stop them.

we could of course, but no one is yet. we have reached crisis level now, people are being sacrificed for no other reason than profit and power. berg was a sacrificial goat, as were the 3,000 at the world trade center. the video of berg's beheading will be a historical piece that changes the world, much like the video of lee harvey oswald being marched out into a parking lot and sacrificed on live t.v.
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zanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. You read my mind.
How can we NOT be paranoid? The machinations of the GOP are so sleazy and underhanded, we don't know who or what to believe anymore. It's all so bizarre and surreal.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Is there a site that is collecting all of the clues?
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. Yes. You seem to be on it.
n/t
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. The thing that surprises me...
is that in an attempt to rule the world for the next thousand years, they've virtually run out of propaganda within 4.

I've never read the book in full, but I don't think Orwell's 1984 considered the possibility that the entire public might just decide to laugh at Big Brother and put him under surveillance instead.
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WastedPotential Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. 9-11 was before the massacre, though
While it is true the Arab world hates us for what Bush did in Iraq, we should remember that they have hated us long before that. I just hate giving Al-Queda a propaganda advantage for hideous acts like the beheading, as the prison abuse scandal did.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. they hated us before for good reason...
...and rather than take an opportunity to change a foreign policy trajectory that culminated in 9-11, Bushco decided to make things much worse. Before Iraq, there was hope for U.S. Middle East policies and relationships, albeit slender hope. Now there's none.

As for the prison abuse scandal, it's not very constructive to regard that simply as a propaganda bonus for al Qaeda-- it was (and remains) a red flag about the systemic rot within our intelligence services and millitary. Truth is not propaganda, despite the fact that some might benefit more than others when truth is revealed.
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WastedPotential Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. No. Al-Queda wants to rule the world. Plain and simple.
Their goal is that Christianity is wiped off the planet. They want everyone to live in a dictatorial hell under the guise of relgion in which THEY are the rulers.
Let's face it. ALL terrorists have the same goal, whether it be Stalin's, Mao's, Hitlers, or Osama's. THEY want to control. THEY want unlimited power.
Let's please not buy what Al-Queda is selling.....that Westerners must be thrown out because they will taint the pure Islamists. This is a smoke screen. They HATE us because their people are attracted to our democratic and capitalistic ideas. They CANNOT allow that to happen, because then THEY will lose power.
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. I agree
Edited on Sat May-15-04 09:54 AM by markses
But I think we have to view the mighty struggle now as a struggle between two forms of absolute power: Al-Qaeda on the one hand, with their religious fanaticism and compulsive drive toward power and murder, and the Bush Administration on the other, with their dream of absolute control, and their actual practice of murder with impunity. It matters not that the Bush Administration puts a smiley face on the actual murderous practice they enter into. They, like al-Qaeda, dream of a world in which no law applies but the ones of their own making, and no norm applies but those they agree with at any given time. This is not speculative, but an actual practice of the administration. So the Gitmo prisoners are being held under no juridical authority than the arbitrary declarations of the Bush administration, which arrogates to itself the sole power to make decisions on detention and tactics. The World Court and the United Nations is spurned by the Bush Administration, precisely because these would constitute a check and regulatory force on their sole decision-making capacity. That is a drive toward absolute power in practice, rather than in principle alone. I am actually shocked that the conservatives in this country could not only allow such a function of basically monarchical power to re-emerge given what I take to be their reverence for a Constitution designed to end arbitrary power, but actually cheer and cherish it! It just goes to show that fear drives fascism, even amongst our own citizens, who I believe to be right in heart, if wrong in thought and methods. NO SITUATION AT ALL warrants such an arrogation of power. It is monarchical, or, more precisely, fascist. So yes, I agree that al-Qaeda is driving for absolute power, and that they must be stopped. But you must also see our perspective here, where the Bush Administration is ALSO driving toward absolute power, the elimination of all checks on their decision-making capacity, and are therefore the most dangerous regime in US history (especially since they have an enemy which seems - to those cowardly citizens who cannot understand that we must fight within our system regardless of the enemy we face - to justify their abuse of our foundational principles as a Republic.)
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. I thought I'd change a few words of your post.
Their goal is that Islam is wiped off the planet. They want everyone to live in a dictatorial hell under the guise of relgion in which THEY are the rulers.
Let's face it. ALL terrorists have the same goal, whether it be Stalin's, Mao's, Hitlers, Osama's, or Bush's. THEY want to control. THEY want unlimited power.
Let's please not buy what Bush is selling.....that Muslims must be thrown out because they will taint the pure Christians. This is a smoke screen. They HATE us because their people might be attracted to peace and prosperity. They CANNOT allow that to happen, because then THEY will lose power.

How horrifying that only a few words needed to be changed.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Uh....something bothers me about this.
"They HATE us because their people are attracted to our democratic and capitalistic ideas." This is just another way of saying that they hate us for our freedoms. I determined that to be a meaningless statement a long time ago. I don't see the "terrorists" attacking Sweden, or any number of other countries that have freedom.

"Their goal is that Christianity is wiped off the planet. They want everyone to live in a dictatorial hell under the guise of relgion in which THEY are the rulers....THEY want to control. THEY want unlimited power."

Substitute "Islam" for "Christianity" in the above and all of this statement applies to Bush and his cabal (THEY)

BTW, Welcome to DU. :hi:


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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. "Nice" try, but try again
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
23. Ah yes, the bushgang's al Qaeda
the perfect Orwellian "Them"

Interesting that THEY haven't tried to take power in a single country. Just shows how evil and duplicitous THEY are.

we better wipe out Islam and establish Jesus and oil dictatorships everywhere before THEY get control.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
27. Who or what is Al-Qaeda, in fact?
How, exactly, would a bunch of loosely-organized guys who supposedly don't even know everyone else in their super secret organization "rule the world?" What "power" will they lose? They don't control one single country or even constitute a political party.

Who, in fact, has all the military might, all the armies and planes and tanks and bombs?

Not the elusive and oh-so-convenient Al-Q.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
29. All despots have the same goal, whether it be Stalin's, Mao's, Hitlers,
or Bush's.
let's buy what the super wealthy elite is selling. I mean, how could we not, since it is them who own the propaganda machine (media)?
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. There was NO good reason for 9/11
Whatever thier grievances, there was absolutely NO justification for the murder of 3000 people. And we should give in to murder, extortion, blackmail? I don't think so. * has made numerous mistakes, very bad ones, in the 'war on terror'. but to let this act go unavenged was not one of them. The whole world was with us in Afghanistan.

for the record: State the good reasons they had to hate us. I know what you are going to say, but I want to hear them anyway.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
33. Whatever US's grievances, it has justification for killing ..
10's of thousands of people.

In short: the US systematically corrupts and manipulates governments of developping nations in order to advance US/western trade interests, at the expense of the population of these nations.

Is it impossible to list here all the good reasons including evidence thereof, as to why they dislike the west as much as they do. Read Chomsky's "Understanding Power" or "Hegemony or Survival".
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. So you feel the salughter of
3000 innocent American, and other nationalities, is justified by sharp trading pracitices? Is that what you are saying?

By the way, I've read Chomsky.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Would you, for everyone's edification, trace back to the point at which
the Arab world began to hate us? It didn't happen out of the blue & it had nothing to do with hating democracy.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. You may well be right. BUT it seems to have the opposite effect.
My sense is that rather than switching the subject from the torture scandal, it has instead so nauseated the average American that Joe and Jane Sixpack now want nothing more to do with Iraq. Many more of them now want us to leave. (True many of those want us to leave just so we can nuke the place, but...)

Bottom line, it doesn't seem to have helped the BFEE.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. I put nothing beyond belief with the bush* criminals
I will entertain any scenarios with this pond of scum.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
8. it would be fine to say it if you had any proof
otherwise you look like you hold stock in the tin foil industry.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. my white lawn chair is on the grassy knoll
sorry if ol mo embarasses you. alert me or ignore me. if you aren't paranoid and suspicious, you ain't payin' attention
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. Paul 'ya need to put an orange jump suit on junior & a beard
to perpetuate the idea, and of course a white chair by the commode.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. hey...you asked the question....
or did you only want to hear from people who agree with the theories?

people say there is no blood. the final shot shows a HUGE bloodstain.

people say 'white chair' but the two white chairs aren't even the same style. one has straight arms, the other's arms are angled.

people say the"arabs" are too fat....cultural ignorance/bigotry.

people say the too fidgety. if you were about to murder someone would you fidget?

people say that none of them is missing a leg. hello?? prosthetics?

nothing that i have heard people say holds oil, let alone water so
afaic, you all are suffering from tin poisoning.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
10. Dare to say it Mo & know you won't be alone in saying it.
Pudgy, fidetting terrorists wearing sneakers. Someone give me a break.
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Believe me, you are not alone.
Even posters on the AOL message boards are doing some questioning. Some have expressed the same doubts. They are also saying that those guys were too big to be Arabs. And what about that gold ring? Even a lady called C-Span this morning with those questions.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. I wish I had a break to give you Tinoire
I'm looking for one of my own. God help us.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. There are no enemies...there is only injustice.
Edited on Sat May-15-04 09:55 AM by Nlighten1
The political machine in America masks its true intentions by giving us an enemy to hate. An objective look at the "enemy" will revel that the Arab world is pissed off at the US because of its foreign policy...not its freedom.

The US foreign policy is rife with injustice to the average Arab.

If we want to start a war why not start a war against injustice?
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. A war against injustice--what a GREAT idea!
I'll volunteer to fight in that one!

Provided, that is, we first remove the 'beam' that is in our own eye before heading off guns blazing to remove the mote that is in our neighbors'.

Regime change truly begins at home.

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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
18. Sadly...many are coming to the same conclusion...
...and for some of us it's not just speculation. I and others with digital video equipment and technology have seen some of the finer details of the five figures behind Berg in the infamous video. We haven't finished our work yet...but at this point it seems as if 'some' of them are indeed not 'Arabs'.

- It would be great if we could find an orginal copy of this video for the sake of forensic study...but I'm afraid we're stuck with the low-light grainy copy. But when the existing video is subjected to technologies that eliminate 'video noise'...it becomes clear that some of the figures are not who we are told they are.

- It's a sad world where things like this happen. It's bad enough that a human being was subjected to this type of torture and death...but it's even worse when we're forced to contemplate that some of our own might have been involved.

- But this will always be a 'conspiracy theory' to many Americans...those who still believe in 'magic bullets' and fairy dust.
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BigDaddyLove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. How exactly do you 'and others with digital video equipment'.......
plan on discovering the nationality of people who are covered in masks?

Can the Avid Media Composer now determine how much an Arab should weigh or what his/her proper height should be?

It is indeed a sad world when people must place the blame for every single violent act that happens in this world squarely at the feet of America.

Berg was murdered by Americans; right.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Using 'digital enhancement'..
...and other methods...facial characteristics that can be seen (through the openings in the 'masks'...especially the one on the far right)...the features are that of white person. One doesn't need skin color to determine this type of thing.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
19. You don't have to be embarrassed, Mo
I've come to that conclusion, too. There are just too many loose ends. I read a post very late last night that lays it all out. Can't remember - might have been in editorials. This thing truly stinks!

I hope Berg's father keeps on yelling about this. He would certainly have a forum in the media.

Mini-Rant:

I don't understand why some around here try to denigrate the honest questions that are being asked. Given that this worthless administration has lied and lied and lied. If I had a relationship with someone who was a compulsive liar I would start verifying everything they said with outside sources, for my own protection if nothing else. Sheesh!
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. Oh jeez, mopaul, you just had to go and say it out loud. Damn.......
you know now we will all just be labled crazy, little conspiracy nuts, don't you? You just had to go and say it out loud!

:bounce: :evilgrin: :bounce: :evilgrin: :bounce:

:argh:
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
25. I said this same thing on another message board.
I was told to stop spewing my paranoia and "dumbass conspiracy theories" and to sit down and shut up. My response was to speak even LOUDER--and yours should be too. This entire mess just reeks, and there is no other way to say it.

My personal feeling is that this is a nation founded by political dissidents. Sitting down and shutting up spits on every ideal put forth by those founding fathers and every person who ever died or bled in defense of the ideals put forth in the formation of this country.

I will not dishonor them that way, and how DARE anyone ask me too.

I love this country just as much as anyone--and THAT is why I seek answers to things that don't seem quite right. That love of my birthplace is WHY I speak out when there are problems. I have that obligation as a citizen, and I have that right under the first amendment. I refuse to surrender either of those, and I refuse to let anyone take them from me.

Berg is dead--there is no dispute on that. His family lost someone they love under questionable circumstances. I feel justice demands that we all ask why and how it happened.

MoPaul, you just keep on speaking out, and you feel free to say what a lot of folks can't or won't. I sure as hell intend to.


Laura


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Athame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
26. BFEE staged events
Here's my off-the-fingertips list. What am I forgetting?

Mazar Sharif standoff

Arrest and (partial) prosecution of:
Moussaui
John Walker Lindh
Jose Padilla (where is he now?)
Shoe bomber
Various and sundry Al Q "masterminds of 911"

Color coded terror alerts
Food drop in Afghanistan
Tora Bora and escape of OBL & Co

State of the Union address--African uranium
Colin Powell's presentation of evidence for WMD
Shock and Awe
Toppling the Saddam statue
Jessica Lynch rescue
Mission Accomplished
Siege & Killing of Saddam's sons and 12 year old nephew
Parading their bodies
Thanksgiving Turkey in Iraq (and siting by British airliner of AF1)
Capture and examination of Saddam

This makes me tired...
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. good list of staged events
the flight suit landing too, the 'viewing' of the photos by the senators, the prisoner abuse hearings, the 9-11 hearings, rummy and meyers visit to the prison the other day, the whole fucking admnistration is one big staged event
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
32. "Americans are not capable of this" is a fallacy.
Americans - hell, humans - do this virtually every day, and without being well-paid for it, following orders and with promise of impunity.

And US governments - even those less catastrophic and more benign than the Bush regime - have perpetrated and covered-up worse crimes against humanity.

May Nick Berg find peace, his family find justice and his killers, for once, be found guilty.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
36. Everyone MUST read the "Sorrows of Empire".......

.....by Chalmers Johnson.

In this book he explains that it is not just bush and his cronies that are responsible for the hatred of the arab world towards us. It has been the foreign policy of the united states for more than half a century to build an empire. But it is not an empire of colonies as in previous empires. It is an empire of military bases.

We now have more than 700 military bases all over the world. Their purpose is to influence the policies of the gov'ts they occupy thru intimidation.

The responsibility lies with the military-industrial-congressional complex that has grown and entangled our government. Just look at the constant revolving door of the people whose carreers have shuttled among the three branches, lining their and their fellow travellers pockets. Just look at the cheney-halliburton connection for a perfect example. They can only profit thru growth and they can only grow thru conflict.

Combine their need for profits with the coming specter of peak oil, and the interconnection of most of these players with the arms and oil industries and it's easy to see just why we are in the gulf area.

The only thing that seperates this administration from any previous administration is that this bunch is so incompetant. While other administrations surely lied to us, at least they lied well. This bunch can't even do that.

I believe the only way to bring our country (and the world) back to some semblance of reason is to starve the beast. We must cut off it's nourishment, the dollar. I think that this will be politically extremely difficult.

Johnson suggests that the one bright spot, if you can call it that, is that keeping this beast fed will shortly bankrupt the country, just like it has every other empire. It will then be impossible for the beast to grow, and without growth (it's stock value) it will die.

Hopefully.
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